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House Democrats To Call On VP And Majority Of Cabinet To Use 25th Amendment; Pence Not Ruling Out The 25th Amendment; Interview With Rep. Nancy Mace (R-SC) About Capitol Hill Siege; Biden Looking To Avoid Being Mired In Impeachment Proceedings; Interview With Sen. Mazie Hirono (D-HI); U.S. Vaccination Effort Remains Woefully Behind Schedule. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired January 10, 2021 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:01]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. This is a special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM.

We begin tonight with breaking news. Tomorrow morning House Democrats intend to introduce a resolution calling on the vice president of the United States Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. That would declare the president as incapable of executing the duties of his office and make Mike Pence the acting president.

All of this comes despite President Trump having fewer than 10 days left in office, and it comes as we're learning more details about the true horror of what happened up on Capitol Hill on Wednesday.

We have new video we want to share with you. We must warn you this video we are about to show is graphic and disturbing.

(VIDEO CLIP OF CAPITOL HILL RIOT)

BLITZER (voice-over): You see that one rioter actually hitting a police officer with that pole with the American flag on it. And it all lays bare just how horrible, how terrible the violence was, the rioters beating police, stomping on them. In one case as I said hitting them repeatedly with sticks and even that pole that had an American flag on it.

That was, by the way, at 4:27 p.m. Eastern. 4:27 p.m. Eastern. And while this was going on here in the nation's Capitol, on Capitol Hill, just 10 minutes earlier, 10 minutes earlier at 4:17 p.m. Eastern, the president, President Trump, tweeted a video speaking to those same disgusting rioters and he said this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We love you. You're very special. You've seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel. But go home and go home in peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER (on camera): All right. Let's go to our White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond. He's watching all of this. And Ryan Nobles, he's covering Capitol Hill for us.

Ryan, first of all, you're learning new details, new information right now about the House speaker's next steps in actually trying to remove President Trump from office. Tell us what you're learning.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for the first time saying that she and her caucus are prepared to move forward with Articles of Impeachment against President Trump. And they're planning to do it in a unique way, essentially putting Vice President Mike Pence on the spot.

They are going to offer up a resolution tomorrow morning here on Capitol Hill that will give the vice president 24 hours to begin the process of invoking the 25th Amendment. If Pence refuses to do so or doesn't indicate that he plans to do that, they will follow up on Tuesday morning by formally filing those impeachment proceedings and beginning that process.

Of course, Wolf, that doesn't necessarily mean that President Trump will be removed from office before his term ends in 10 days. It's just the beginning of that process, although there is certainly enough support by Democrats here on the House side to move through the impeachment process.

The next step, of course, is a conviction on the Senate side. It's unclear whether or not Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell has the will to take that next step or even if House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will hand those Articles of Impeachment over once they are passed.

But what we do know, the significant news here tonight, is that Speaker Pelosi is ready to move forward, and she's waiting on Vice President Mike Pence to decide what he's going to do about the 25th Amendment.

Wolf, at this point the vice president has not said where he stands on that particular issue.

BLITZER: Stand by, Ryan. I want to go to Jeremy over at the White House.

I understand, Jeremy, a source did tell CNN that Pence has not necessarily ruled out the 25th Amendment. So where do you think he stands on this right now? This is an extremely sensitive moment.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And Wolf, the fact that the vice president is saying privately that he has not ruled this out yet is significant in and of itself because what you would expect from Mike Pence after four years where he has been unfailingly loyal to President Trump, really trying to show zero daylight between himself and the president during his four years as vice president, you would expect to see Mike Pence swan away this talk of the 25th Amendment, say that it's certainly not something that he's considering or that he would ever consider.

But that is not the situation that we are in. Instead we're in a situation where the vice president and the president their relationship is at its lowest point ever with President Trump pressuring Mike Pence on Wednesday before inciting that mob or as he was inciting that mob to storm Capitol Hill, pressuring Mike Pence to overturn the results of a democratic election and refused to certify the results of that election.

[19:05:01]

Mike Pence, of course, refused to do that, instead following through with his constitutional duty. And so now you have a situation where President Trump and Vice President Pence haven't talked to each other since that incident on Wednesday. The president never called Mike Pence to check on him as he was in the Capitol under siege from that mob of rioters incited by the president himself. And so now we're in a very unique situation where the vice president has this power with a majority of the Cabinet using the 25th Amendment to strip President Trump of his presidential powers.

There's no indication as of now that the vice president is going to do that. In fact, sources have told us that it's unlikely that he will follow through with that, but at the same time he is not ruling it out, viewing it as an option that he wants to keep on the table should President Trump's conduct become even more erratic and unstable.

BLITZER: And this is a huge if. If the vice president were to invoke the 25th Amendment, would there be a majority of the Cabinet -- I know two Cabinet members resigned last week, but would a majority of the Cabinet be ready to go ahead and remove President Trump?

DIAMOND: Look, as of now there's no indication that there is a majority of the Cabinet that would support that. None of them have come out publicly to say that they would support that most likely because President Trump would probably quickly fire them. But what we do know, Wolf, is that two Cabinet members the Thursday, the day after these riots happened on Capitol Hill, I'm told that two Cabinet members were calling other members of the Cabinet to take their temperatures about the possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment and more specifically about holding a Cabinet meeting to confront the president about his behavior and demand that he make some kind of public statement.

Ultimately the president under pressure of course from some of those Cabinet members perhaps but specifically from the threat of that 25th Amendment and from the resignations he was facing from within his administration, he did release that video on Thursday night saying that he would commit to a peaceful transfer of power and he called for healing and reconciliation. But later, Wolf, we're told that it appeared that the president regretted filming that video.

Remarkable that amid all of the things that the president has done these last several days, that video is what the president is having second thoughts about.

BLITZER: Yes, and he was forced to read the script of that video. He didn't want to do it.

Ryan, just set the scene one more time for us. Tomorrow morning what's going to happen, then what happens Tuesday and Wednesday assuming that Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment?

NOBLES: Yes, Wolf, tomorrow morning Speaker Pelosi will bring to the floor a resolution that she'll ask unanimous consent for that essentially creates a trigger for them to begin the process of impeaching President Trump. That is a resolution that is going to ask Vice President Mike Pence to clearly stand where he -- or clearly state where he stands as it relates to the 25th Amendment. If the vice president says that he's not ready to begin that process or just doesn't respond at all within that 24-hour window then Tuesday morning the House Democrats will begin the impeachment process here on Capitol Hill --Wolf.

BLITZER: And they could have a vote very quickly. And there seems to be no doubt that the majority, it's a simple majority to impeach, 218 votes, no doubt they would have that, right?

NOBLES: It certainly seems that way, Wolf. You know, there's a growing list of Democrats who are on the record saying that they will support the impeachment process, and there's also even a groundswell among Republicans here on Capitol Hill. Certainly not the majority of Republican members, but we are seeing more and more Republicans say that they are open to the idea of supporting impeachment.

That's important here on the House side to a certain extent. It's even more important on the Senate side because it would require two thirds vote of the Senate to convict President Trump and remove him from office. It doesn't appear that the numbers are there quite yet. But if this snowball continues rolling down the hill over the next couple of days, we don't know where it would end up.

BLITZER: If Trump is impeached he would be the first president in American history to be impeached by the House of Representatives twice.

All right, guys, I know you're working your sources. We're going to get back to you, Ryan Nobles, Jeremy Diamond. Thank you very much.

Joining us now Republican Representative Nancy Mace of South Carolina. She's a new congresswoman.

Thank you so much. Congratulations. I know these have been extremely, painful, difficult days for you coming to Washington. Are you OK? First of all, I know you were terrified by what was happening back on Wednesday.

REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): No. It was terrifying. I was devastated and heartbroken and I'm just grateful to be home tonight with my children. I flew home Friday night. I had a security detail the entire way home, and I hugged and loved on them as hard and as long as I could, and then grateful that they just weren't with me. They were supposed to be up with me, up there in D.C. this week. Because of COVID-19 my kids are not able to go to school. They do virtual school like many children across the country.

But by Sunday night hearing all the rhetoric and what was going on online and seeing the vitriol out there, it didn't feel safe. And I put my kids on the first flight home on Monday morning and I'm just so grateful that my mom instincts kicked it and they weren't there to witness the destruction and the deaths that happened. It was a horrifying experience, something I could never imagine, and never want to see ever happen again in this country.

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BLITZER: Yes, you're absolutely right. It's hard to believe this is happening in our nation's Capitol.

All right, so let me get your response to what's going on right now in the House of Representatives. You heard Ryan's report. The speaker wants the vice president to invoke the 25th Amendment to the Constitution. What do you think?

MACE: Well, right now I'm not even sure legally, and I was in some interviews yesterday whether they can since a few of the Cabinet members have resigned, if they would even be able to do that. So I do have a question on the legality of that. Regardless of what happens, what decision Vice President Mike Pence makes, I will support the vice president in whatever decision he makes.

One of the issues that I have right now whether it's the 25th Amendment, whether it's impeachment right now, is further dividing the country and pouring gasoline on a fire. I risked my life to take the vote on Wednesday night to certify the electoral college. There are many of us out there that happened to, our lives were -- people were threatening us. I was accosted in the street on Tuesday night, and I worry about that because the Impeachment Articles if it passes with a simple majority in the House, it needs two-thirds in the Senate.

I don't know that there's an appetite for it there, but it doesn't get to the Senate until the 19th of January, the day before Joe Biden is sworn into office. And I think that for unity in this country we need to be really thoughtful and careful about how do we go from here and how do we ensure that there is a peaceful transition of power, that the inauguration goes smoothly so that we can get a fresh start starting on January 20th. I think that's really important for the American people right now.

BLITZER: So do you think the president of the United States should at least symbolically be punished by the House of Representatives and you're a new member for what he did?

MACE: Absolutely, and I do believe, and I've talked to some of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle today. I do believe there's an appetite, whether that is censure or some other resolution or an opportunity to move forward, somebody's got to be held accountable and we have to hold the president accountable for what happened. The rhetoric leading up to this vote, the lies that were told to the

American people, this is what happens. Rhetoric has real consequences and people died. And so I will support that effort to have a genuine effort to really look at what happened and hold those accountable. It wasn't just the president, though. There were other people even in my own party that ratcheted up the rhetoric, that got these folks riled up and helped influence and inspire the violence that transpired on this horrific event on Wednesday.

And I think that's important, too, to recognize. But Wednesday's event isn't the only violent event in our country. We've seen violence across the nation over the last nine months. I think it's really important for us Republicans and Democrats to really look in the mirror and, one, acknowledge that we have a problem in this country. That's the first step. The second is that we all need to take responsibility for our words and our actions, and going forward, from this day forward, we need to make a promise to the American people that we will be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

And I know that the anger and frustration people have in this country are on both sides of the aisle because they hate seeing things politicized. I really want to be thoughtful of that, but I support censure, I support anyway that we can hold our president accountable and others who led up to this, who are responsible for this destruction on Wednesday.

BLITZER: Yes. I assumed if there were -- instead of an impeachment resolution, if there was a censure resolution it would get overwhelming support right away.

MACE: Overwhelming. Both sides of the aisle, yes.

BLITZER: All the Democrats and a lot of Republicans would like to censure this president for what he did, for what he said in causing this pain that developed last Wednesday.

But if the option is only -- let's say Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment, if the option is to vote yay or nay, yes or no, on a resolution, on impeachment resolution, how do you think you'll vote?

MACE: Well, right now that isn't going to be the only option because I know that there are censure documents that are being filed or being drafted right now by Democrats both in the Senate and in the House so I believe we will have more than one option. Right now I feel like that's going to put -- pour gasoline on the fire. I worry about the effects of that going forward and how it will further divide our country, but I believe in the Constitution.

I've always voted with the Constitution. I will look at what is presented to us and how it's going to be deliberated, what evidence is presented. And we'll vote based on the Constitution and what's presented before us in anything that I do, in any of these options.

BLITZER: Congresswoman Nancy Mace, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so happy you're OK. I know you're going to be careful. Your kids obviously were very, very worried. We'll see you back here in Washington.

MACE: Yes.

BLITZER: Stay safe out there.

MACE: Thank you.

BLITZER: Coming up, amid all the calls for impeachment, Democrats are also looking to ban President Trump from running for office in the future, but can they do that? Are there options? We'll discuss that. We're getting new information when we come back.

[19:15:04]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: With just 10 days left in office for President Trump, top House Democrats announcing they will introduce a resolution calling on Vice President Mike Pence and Trump's Cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment to the Constitution and remove Trump from office. The resolution will call on Pence to respond within 24 hours. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says next she will proceed with bringing impeachment legislation to the floor.

It would truly be unprecedented. Never in American history has a president been impeached twice.

And joining us now the former federal prosecutor and CNN's Senior Legal Analyst Laura Coates. She's also the host of "The Laura Coates Show" on Sirius XM.

Laura, let me get your reaction to this latest development, House Democrats calling on Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment. What do you think?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: What an ultimatum that's been issued right now. You heard that phrase, you and what army? Well, it appears to be the House of Representatives saying to Vice President Mike Pence do something or else. The urgency here when you've got more than one option on the table including one that involves impeachment, we've already been down this road with this presidential administration, censure is on the table.

[19:20:01]

But it seems that they're quite intent on the quickest route to the removal of the president without the rigmarole of a Senate trial or even having to go back and forth about witnesses. This is a clear way. They're trying to draw a very straight line. The goal here appears to be to remove President Trump, to delegate power to Vice President Mike Pence, and it can be done quite quickly and that's by design under the 25th Amendment.

BLITZER: Yes. So the question is, is Pence going to do that or not? Because we're told he was potentially open to it. He hasn't done it yet. We'll see what happens. Remember only 10 days left until the inauguration of Joe Biden as the next president of the United States.

President Trump, we're also told, Laura, is considering having Alan Dershowitz represent him if there's an impeachment trial in the Senate. That would be after Trump leaves office. Dershowitz told FOX News today that Trump can't be impeached after January 20th because he's no longer president of the United States.

The House majority whip Jim Clyburn says they could wait until after Biden's first 100 days for example in office to actually send the House Impeachment Articles over to the Senate for a trial. Even though he's long gone, he's then a former president of the United States. What do you think on that?

COATES: Well, it's not quite clear from the Constitution, which says you can through impeachment remove an officer, remove the president from office. So it does seem to go in line with the notion that if you're to remove someone from office they would have to actually be in office.

However, you're talking about a very novel legal concept that's never been tested, and it would really run antithetical to the idea of justice, the idea of a president being above the law or not above the law if he can just run out the clock, if he can just simply wait until just enough time and then escape as if there's no accountability whatsoever.

What if somebody found out in the very late hour there had been some sort of high crime or misdemeanor, are we to assume that we intended as a country for the president of the United States (INAUDIBLE) because he's no longer in office? And by the way the impeachment has another aspect of it. It's not just removal from office. It's also about the idea of disqualifying that person from office holding in the future.

It seems to me that the strongest argument they have here, and maybe this is behind why Pelosi wants to move pretty quickly, is that it might be the case that if you begin the impeachment process, even if it were to extend with a trial after his actual tenure in office, you have a pretty strong argument that it was intended to begin and resolve irrespective of when he actually decided to leave office or had to leave office.

But it's not been tested, Wolf. Again, we're in the wild, wild west. But frankly after Wednesday it seems it's been about the wild, wild west.

BLITZER: Yes. Anything is possible right now. All right, Laura, thank you very much. Laura Coates helping us better appreciate the law right now.

Meanwhile President-elect Biden says it's up to Congress to decide how to sanction President Trump, but new CNN reporting details how the new incoming Biden team is working with the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other top Democrats behind the scenes.

We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:27:42]

BLITZER: Calls for impeaching the president of the United States for a second time are mounting across Capitol Hill right now. And while President-elect Joe Biden maintains its Congress' decision on how to properly sanction Trump for inciting the deadly attack on the U.S. Capitol, he is concerned that an impeachment trial could potentially bog down his pending agenda during the first hundred days.

CNN's Athena Jones is joining us from Wilmington, Delaware, right now covering the transition.

Athena, Biden and Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill are looking at, I take it, multiple ways to hold the current president accountable. What's being discussed?

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf. That's right. There's intense desire among Democrats to hold President Trump accountable for inciting Wednesday's attack on the Capitol, but there's also intense desire among the incoming Biden administration not to make any move that would threaten swift progress on his ambitious legislative agenda aimed at attacking the coronavirus pandemic, getting vaccines into millions of arms, and also jumpstarting economic growth.

And so we know that President-elect Biden has been in discussions with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and their advisers have been talking all throughout the weekend to try to find some sort of middle ground here that would prevent his new administration from getting bogged down with an impeachment trial right from the get-go.

So among the things being discussed as they try to navigate this sort of difficult tactical situation is House majority whip Jim Clyburn saying that it's possible the House impeach -- vote to impeach President Trump but then not send the Articles of Impeachment to the Senate until the first 100 days of Biden's administration had passed. That would allow them to focus on his legislative agenda and also on getting his Cabinet nominees confirmed.

Another idea being discussed is censuring the president. This is something that folks believe would have more bipartisan support than an impeachment proceeding. The drawback here is that a censure of the president would not prevent him from running for public office in the future. And of course, now we know that the first step in all of this would be this attempt to pass the resolution related to the 25th Amendment tomorrow -- Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll see what Pence, the vice president, decides to do on that. Athena, thank you very much.

Joining us now Democratic Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii.

Senator Hirono, thank you so much for joining us. Your Democratic colleague in the House of Representatives, James Clyburn, he laid out this potential timeline for impeachment. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:30:00]

REP. JIM CLYBURN (D-SC): We'll take the vote that we should take in the House, and she will make the determination as when is the best time to get that vote and get the managers upon it and move that legislation over to the Senate.

If this so happens that it did go over there for a hundred days, it could -- let's give President-elect Biden the hundred days he needs to get his agenda off and running. And maybe we'll send the Article sometimes after that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So what do you think, Senator? You're a member of the Judiciary Committee in the Senate, you believe the House should vote to impeach the President, let's say sometime between -- over the next 10 days, and then wait, let's say a hundred days or so until the House sends over the actual Articles of Impeachment to the Senate for a formal trial?

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): Well, first, I completely agree with both Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi in saying that they want the President to exit as soon as possible, so to do a resolution that formalizes a request to the Vice President that he invoke the 25th Amendment, I think that is the way to go.

Although so many of us have already been asking the Vice President to grow a conscience basically, and a sense of responsibility to do that.

But after that, I think that the House should go ahead with an impeachment, Articles of Impeachment, at the same time, knowing full well that Joe Biden is very committed to getting control of this pandemic, getting our economy going. That means that we need to get the vaccination program going and nationally, et cetera.

And so the Democrats are just as committed to help Joe Biden do just that, and that's why I think Jim Clyburn is articulating an approach that would enable us to do both things.

BLITZER: Because as you know, and as you heard, the Biden team is clearly deeply concerned that the President-elect's agenda could get way bogged down if everyone is focusing in on a trial, an impeachment trial in the Senate especially when it comes to the critical issues about getting Cabinet members confirmed by the Senate, also, the COVID crisis that's still exploding worse than ever right now. We will have more on that, the numbers are exploding, as you well know, and the economic issues that have to be dealt with.

Do you worry that if there's a trial in the Senate, it could bog all that down?

HIRONO: That's why, Wolf, while the trial is going on, it's very hard for the Senate to conduct other business, and that's why I think what Jim is suggesting, and I think what Nancy is also contemplating makes a lot of sense.

And at the same time, we are holding the President accountable. I think that is a very important thing to do. You can't have a President just running around doing whatever it is he wants, even though -- especially a President who believes he is beyond the law, that nothing can touch him.

BLITZER: Well, do you have any reason to believe at all that the Vice President will invoke the 25th Amendment?

HIRONO: I'm not holding my breath on that, and especially as some of the President's Cabinet members are deserting ship, you know, and I described it, they are like rats deserting a sinking ship, rather than staying and doing their jobs and being patriotic, and invoking the 25th Amendment along with the Vice President. I'm not holding up hope for that.

But, you know, we're going to give them a chance to do the right thing.

BLITZER: I assume you were in the Senate when all this was exploding on Wednesday. Is that right?

HIRONO: Yes. That's right. Though in the Senate --

BLITZER: So tell us -- give us -- give us your experience, Senator. What was going on? How scared were you? Did you feel you were in real danger?

HIRONO: In the Senate, we were in the midst of debating the Arizona challenge, and the first inkling was when all these staff people rushed into the chambers. And then soon thereafter, Vice President Pence who was presiding was ushered out.

And then next thing you know, we were all being ushered out. I did not see any of the video of what was really going on with the rioting and they attack and assault on the Capitol until some TV monitors were brought in some one hour after all of the senators were in a safe place.

So all I could think of was, how did these people reach the Capitol so quickly? Because we have been told not to be walking around that day outside, to use the tunnels, but that all of the protesters, although they were protesters and rioters, were going to be held to the perimeter and they were not.

So that was the shocking thing, then, of course, after we were in our safe place and I did not personally feel physically threatened, but I know that there were some members who were not with us, who we were very concerned for their safety as these rioters began to pound on their door.

And certainly, as we saw the House members were in danger and I heard one of them say that he thought that he would have to make a stand right there fighting these protesters.

[19:35:08]

HIRONO: So the whole thing was that, it was chaotic, and we really need to investigate what happened, what was the huge failure in terms of the decision makers, the law enforcement decision makers -- I am not holding the Capitol Police, you know, responsible, but clearly we were -- they were not prepared for what happened.

BLITZER: The President and his supporters at that rally just before all those rioters left the area where the rally was near the White House, walked up Pennsylvania to Capitol Hill. They were egged on clearly by the President of the United States, as we all know. Just look at the rhetoric in those remarks. He gave them earlier on. Go ahead. Final thoughts.

HIRONO: Yes, and so the whole mass of people -- a whole mass of people, thousands of people marching for the U.S. Capitol, and it's not as though there was not a lot of Twitter and everything else going on social media, that something was going to happen, and these rioters who came to do damage and they did, people died, and the whole thing was tragic.

And when I saw the images, it was so shocking to see these people climbing up on the walls, getting into the Chamber, sitting in Nancy Pelosi's chair, sitting in the Senate presiding officer's chair basically walking around like they own the place was shocking. And that is why the prosecution is very clear there and all the instigators, including the President needs to be held accountable. Hence, I believe that we should do impeachment.

BLITZER: Senator Hirono, I'm glad you're okay. Thank you so much for joining us.

HIRONO: Thank you. Everyone, take care. Stay safe.

BLITZER: Yes, You too, please. We are going to have more on all the breaking news this hour. The House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says she will be calling on the Vice President Mike Pence to use the 25th Amendment to the Constitution. And if he will not, they will push forward with impeachment.

There are political risks to moving so quickly to impeach the President, potentially at least, we'll assess that and a lot more when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:40:47]

BLITZER: The dramatic developments continuing here in Washington, understandably so, the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi now says she will formally call on the Vice President Mike Pence and the Trump Cabinet to use the 25th Amendment to the Constitution to remove President Trump from office in the coming days. The resolution will call on Pence to respond within 24 hours if he is

going to do so, following that, the House will proceed with bringing impeachment legislation to the floor, but will either method actually remove Trump from power only 10 days left until he leaves the White House?

CNN politics reporter, Chris Cillizza is joining us right now. So Chris, Biden advisers, they are working behind the scenes with top Democrats in the House to try to find some sort of middle ground. What do you think is likely to happen?

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yes, it's a really hard line to walk, Wolf, because there is so much outrage, not just in the Democratic base, but certainly in the Democratic base, and there is a desire to do something.

At the same time, Joe Biden doesn't want the first month of his presidency to be consumed by this, particularly as they are trying to get their arms around the vaccine rollout related to coronavirus.

I think what will happen is what you played Jim Clyburn saying earlier today, which is the 25th Amendment, I tend to think is very unlikely. I think Mike Pence will reject this ask by Nancy Pelosi, that Nancy Pelosi will go through with impeachment in the House. Remember, there's a difference between being impeached and convicted or removed from office. That's the Senate's job, the latter part; the first part is the House.

I think it's very likely that he is impeached, and I think you will see a decent chunk of Republicans, not a majority, but a decent chunk of Republicans vote for it, at which point the ball will be in the Senate's court and they may sit on it for a while. Obviously, you can impeach a President who has left office. It has a little bit less sort of power in it because he's not in office anymore.

But I think this is very much an early test of the Biden presidency and its power. They do not want this happening at this timeframe. They also know they can't do nothing given what we saw last week.

BLITZER: And as you correctly point out, you just need a simple majority in the House of Representatives to impeach 218 votes. I suspect they will have that relatively easily, but in the Senate to convict, you need two-thirds, 67 senators, two-thirds majority. That means 17 Senate Republicans would have to agree, some of them are saying well, maybe yes, maybe no. But what do you think?

CILLIZZA: Well, I think that's the other part of the calculation, Wolf, which is, do you really want to do impeachment in the House, and then acquittal in the Senate, which is what we saw over the Ukraine back and forth with Donald Trump? Do you think that you can get that number of Republicans?

You would get far more than you got for the Ukraine call. There is no question. I think there's a fair chunk of Republicans who are done with all of this. But you know, Mitch McConnell put out -- the Senate Majority Leader,

well, he is the Senate Majority Leader currently, he won't be for much longer. But he put out something essentially saying, look, this, we wouldn't be able to get to this until the day before the Inauguration.

My guess is that he is going to signal he is against this even though he is going to try to condemn what Trump did in pretty strong terms. That's the issue there. Does the math add up? And does the political calculus add up for Joe Biden?

BLITZER: Chris Cillizza, as usual, thank you very much.

CILLIZZA: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: In the first 10 days of this year, this is really sad, the number of new cases and deaths from the coronavirus here in the United States is setting new records, but the number of vaccinations being administered right now alarmingly low despite the availability of the doses. We're going to discuss what needs to be done to turn this around. Stay with us.

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[19:48:58]

BLITZER: We're going to have much more on all the breaking news in just a few moments, House Democrats moving forward with impeachment of President Trump, but right now we want to discuss the pandemic and a new horrific number this evening.

The United States now reporting more than 100,000 daily COVID-19 hospitalizations for the 40th day in a row. Already today -- and the day is not over yet -- we have seen over 129,000 hospitalizations across the U.S.

Meanwhile, the C.D.C. says just 6.7 million first doses of the vaccine have been given far below the 20 million we were promised by the end of 2020.

Joe Biden wants to try a different approach, instead of holding supply back to issue a second dose, he wants to release all supply for first shots as quickly as possible. Dr. Paul Offit, who is on the F.D.A. Vaccine Advisory Committee says that potentially could be risky.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. PAUL OFFIT, MEMBER, F.D.A. VACCINES ADVISORY COMMITTEE: I think what the Biden plan is doing is they're making a big bet and I think an unnecessary bet. They're assuming that they're going to be able to mass produce, mass distribute and mass administer that second dose in a timely manner.

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[19:50:08] BLITZER: Dr. Celine Gounder is a member of the Biden-Harris transition

COVID Advisory Board, and Dr. Ashish Jha is the Dean of the Brown University School of Public Health. Doctors, thanks so much for joining us.

So, Dr. Gounder, what is going on right now? Take us a little bit behind the scenes if you can to make this new concept, this new plan that's being put forward by the Biden folks work?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, MEMBER OF BIDEN-HARRIS TRANSITION COVID ADVISORY BOARD: Wolf, I want to be very clear that this is a supply chain management decision, this is not a change in a recommendation for how the vaccine should be dosed or administered.

And so the Pfizer vaccine should still be given at full dose, the second dose at 21 days, and the Moderna vaccine should still be given full dose, the second dose at 28 days. What we realized is that, in essence, we were getting in our own way. We were making the distribution more complicated than it had to be.

So for example, if I got a vaccination today and I needed a second vaccination in three weeks, you would have to have that vaccination with my name on it in the freezer waiting for me for three weeks later, and that's just unnecessarily complicated when we're already dealing with such, such logistical challenges.

BLITZER: That's a good point. You know, you know, Dr. Jha, the former F.D.A. director, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, says the Trump plan -- if there is a Trump plan -- what's going on right now clearly is not working. We need to hit the reset button. I assume you agree.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes. Wolf, thanks for having me on. Yes, we're a month since the Pfizer vaccine was authorized. And about three weeks since the Moderna vaccine was authorized. The fact that we have about seven million Americans vaccinated is a travesty.

I completely agree with Dr. Gottlieb and I also agree here quite vocally with Dr. Gounder and the Biden plan. I don't think it's necessary to hold every dose back. I've been one of the few people who sort of said, we could even stretch out the second dose, but I understand a lot of people are not comfortable with that.

I think it is fine to go ahead and get -- obviously, to give people that second dose on time, but we don't have to hold 55 percent of the doses in reserve. Getting doses out there is going to make a big difference.

BLITZER: And one of the problems, Dr. Gounder, in 10 days, Biden becomes President of the United States, one of the problems is, the distribution of these vaccines, maybe 25 or 30 million have been distributed, but what -- only six million or so have been administered, putting your shots in people's arms. My sense, and I keep saying this, nobody is listening to me, but my sense is, you need a massive mobilization. F.E.M.A. has to be mobilized. The military has to be mobilized.

Stadiums, churches, auditoriums, people have to get these vaccines ASAP. What? Thousands and thousands of Americans are dying every single day. We need these folks' vaccines. Does the Biden team have a concept to go and accelerate the distribution of these shots?

GOUNDER: Wolf, trust me, we're listening to you and many like you who are suggesting these out of the box creative solutions and we certainly will be pursuing some of these after January 20th.

I do think big picture, we need to be providing a massive infusion of funding to local and state health departments. They had been suffering from chronic underfunding and then further budget cuts since the 2008- 2009 recession. We have lost 50,000 public health workers since that time. And so we really need to be rebuilding the public health workforce to administer these vaccinations, even as we might be drawing on some of these other sources of staffing that you suggest.

But this needs to be done very urgently, and Congress needs to cooperate to get that done.

BLITZER: Yes, if there's a tornado, if there's a hurricane, floods, F.E.M.A. is activated and the military is activated. People get into action. I don't see that happening right now with the enormous -- the enormous need that is out there.

Dr. Jha, let me get your thoughts on this because there's also some word that the Biden team may be rethinking the prioritization guidance that -- who should be getting these vaccines right now? Who should move up the list? What do you think?

JHA: Yes, I haven't heard the details of what the Biden team is thinking. But look, we've got to get these vaccines out. Right now, if we don't get moving, a lot of older people, a lot of high-risk people, people with comorbidities may be months away from getting the vaccine.

My sense is that President-elect Biden and his whole team is looking at all of it, and trying to think about how do we get vaccines out quickly, efficiently, and get it out to people who are at high risk so we can begin to save lives? I think we should always be reviewing these things. And I think that would be a wise thing to do at this moment.

BLITZER: Very quickly, Dr. Gounder, what do you think?

[19:55:00]

GOUNDER: I agree with Dr. Jha and we are reevaluating, we are debating actively amongst ourselves: how can we simplify and how can we get vaccines out to the American people faster?

BLITZER: Well, it's a critically important issue because the cases, hospitalizations and deaths here in the United States are exploding right now. We need to get the shots. We need to do it right away.

Dr. Gounder, thanks for everything you're doing. Dr. Jha, we really appreciate everything you're doing as well. To both of you, thank you so, so much.

Meanwhile, as calls are growing louder and louder for President Trump to step aside even though he only has 10 days left in the White House, the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is preparing to pass a resolution on the House floor tomorrow that would call on Vice President Pence and the Trump Cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment of the Constitution.

We have details on what that means. We'll be right back.

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