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The Situation Room

Interview With Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT); Democrats Push Forward On COVID-19 Relief Bill; House GOP To Decide Fate Of Marjorie Taylor Greene And Liz Cheney; CDC Projects About 85,000 More Deaths This Month; Trump's Impeachment Lawyer Says He Will Focus On Technical Defenses At Trial; Two Proud Boys Members Charged With Conspiring To Fund And Plan Effort To Stop Election Certification On Day Of Capitol Insurrection. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired February 03, 2021 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:31]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.

We're following breaking news on a defining moment for Republicans that's playing out right now up on Capitol Hill.

The House GOP has been meeting behind closed doors discussing whether to punish two members who symbolize the split within the party, the conspiracy-embracing Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene and the third-ranking House Republican, Liz Cheney, who voted to impeach former President Trump.

Stand by for new information on that. And the Republican infighting continues.

Meanwhile, the Biden administration is trying to stay focused on COVID relief. The president meeting with fellow Democrats today, urging them to go big and stick together as they move ahead on his nearly $2 trillion package without, at least for now, Republican support.

In just a moment, I will talk with Senator Bernie Sanders. He's the new chairman of the Senate Budget Committee. He was in that meeting with the president earlier today.

But, first, let's go up to Capitol Hill.

Our congressional correspondent, Ryan Nobles, is joining us.

Ryan, we're standing by to learn the outcome of this really critical meeting of House Republicans. What are you learning so far?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the one thing we know for sure is that that meeting is still ongoing.

More than two hours, it has been, as Republicans have been behind closed doors hashing out their differences. We're told that it has been heated at times and that there are still many Republican members of Congress who want to speak about their issues with the current state of the party.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES (voice-over): On Capitol Hill, a day of reckoning for Republicans, the House GOP meeting today behind closed doors, with the fate of two high-profile members hanging in the balance.

The party grappling with the fallout from freshman Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's controversial statements.

QUESTION: What is your message to your party? Will you apologize?

NOBLES: And the backlash to Liz Cheney, the third-ranking Republican in the House, over her vote to impeach former President Trump.

The top Republican in the House, Kevin McCarthy, tonight releasing a statement condemning Greene's comments, but not announcing any formal steps to reprimand Greene, this after McCarthy and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer could not reach a deal over the Congresswoman.

Democrats are poised to move forward with a vote to remove Greene from her committee assignments.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): The last time I checked, cancers need to be cut out and not allowed to metastasize. And Kevin McCarthy has the ability to do the right thing. He should.

NOBLES: Some Republicans also calling out McCarthy's handling of Greene, one member telling CNN if McCarthy -- quote -- "doesn't act, he's going to continue to look indecisive."

But the Republican Conference is far from united, with other members arguing that removing Greene from committees now could have long- lasting consequences.

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): They're setting themselves up for retribution in two years. And I just think it's a bad precedent. Parties handle this and they discipline internally.

NOBLES: Amid the fallout over Greene, Republicans also facing a split over party's support for Trump. McCarthy initially offered tepid support for Cheney after her impeachment vote.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I support, her but I also have concerns. She took a position, as a number three member in conference. She never told me ahead of time.

NOBLES: Which followed McCarthy's own critical comments of the president's role in inciting the January 6 insurrection.

McCarthy later flying to Florida to meet face to face with the president. Ahead of the meeting, some Republican members telling CNN they wanted Cheney to express remorse for her handling of the impeachment vote. Inside the room, we're told Cheney did address the group, but did not

apologize for her vote, but asked her colleagues to keep her in her leadership position.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES: And more on what we are learning inside the room tonight.

We're told that the House minority leader, Kevin McCarthy, and the House minority whip, Steve Scalise, have both expressed their support to keep Liz Cheney in her leadership role.

And I actually caught up with Liz Cheney as many of the members left the room to cast votes on the House floor, taking a short break from that meeting. She told me, Wolf, that she believes that the meeting is going well, but that she's not going to answer any questions until the meeting ends. So there is still a lot we have left to learn -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, stand by. I want to bring you into this conversation.

I also want to bring in our special correspondent, Jamie Gangel. Former Republican Congresswoman Mia Love is joining us as well. She's a CNN political commentator.

Jamie, I know you're following these developments closely. You're well plugged in to a bunch of GOP sources. What do you make of the details that we're learning so far from this meeting?

[18:05:05]

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I think we're seeing the Republican Party at war.

And what's most remarkable is, we have just heard about two hours of yelling at Liz Cheney because she voted her conscience on impeachment and nothing about Marjorie Taylor Greene. Kevin McCarthy has given her a hall pass.

We do have a few details. We're told that Liz Cheney started by giving an eight-minute speech that was -- quote -- "calm, but firm." If you have ever heard Liz Cheney speak, that's the way she speaks.

That she would not apologize, that she made her vote in defense of the Constitution, and that she asked for a vote tonight on her leadership position, which I think speaks to the fact that she is confident about how that vote would go. As Ryan said, it has been very heated.

One member said it was like a meteor shower in there, that it's a mess.

I think the real question now, Wolf, is about someone else, though, and that's Kevin McCarthy and his leadership. And the fact that he went down to pay homage to Donald Trump, how did the Republican Party get here, Wolf?

BLITZER: When he went down to Palm Beach and Mar-a-Lago the other day.

GANGEL: Right.

BLITZER: Mia, you served in Congress as a Republican representative. You attended dozens of these Republican Conference meetings. One lawmaker described this meeting, as you heard, as a mess.

Does that surprise you at all, given all the disarray that's happening right now within the GOP?

MIA LOVE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think that this is a party in crisis, unfortunately.

You have -- right at the beginning of the Trump presidency, you had some Republicans that were holding their nose and saying, OK, we're going to support the president because we support his policies. And then you had some that were: I'm going to support the president because I like the brash behavior.

And now you're seeing a completely -- divide between all of them. And I have to tell you, I'm a little disappointed that they're going after Liz Cheney like this. She doesn't have to ask anyone's permission to vote her conscience. She still was elected by her district, by her people, and not by the leadership.

The -- and this is not up to Kevin McCarthy. This is up to the entire conference as to whether they're going to keep her or not. I'm a little disappointed that they're going after her, because we're supposed to be independent thinkers. And if you really want to try to united the party, you have to be able to live within that and respect people's decisions.

BLITZER: Yes, you certainly do.

Ryan, you reported that the Republican leader in the House, Kevin McCarthy, issued that statement condemning Greene's comments. But by not taking action to remove her, at least from one of those committees, if not both of those committees, has he actually put his colleagues, his Republican colleagues, in an even more difficult political position, because now the Democrats may force a vote?

NOBLES: Well, they're going to force a vote, Wolf.

And the answer to your question is absolutely. The Democrats have already pushed through these -- the move to remove Greene from her committees through the Rules Committee. It's scheduled to be on the House floor tomorrow.

And every single Republican member of Congress is going to have to take a very public vote as to whether or not they stand with their Republican colleague Marjorie Taylor Greene and, to a certain extent, implicitly endorse her conduct before she became a member of Congress or whether or not they're going to side with those who are calling for her to be removed from these committees.

Now, what Republicans are trying to do is find a way around this by suggesting that it sets a dangerous precedent, that it should not be Democrats telling Republicans who they should put on their committees, and that, if Republicans become the majority party in the near future, that they're going to turn around and remove controversial members of the Democratic Caucus off of some of their committees.

They mentioned people like Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Representative Ilhan Omar. Now, obviously, there's nothing that even rises anywhere near the level of the controversial statements that Greene has made by anyone in the Democratic Caucus.

So, it is somewhat of a silly argument. But that's the place that Republicans find themselves in right now, because, if you back away from Marjorie Taylor Greene, the honest thing we have to recognize here is, to a certain extent, you are backing away from President Donald Trump, the former president.

He is still very much supportive of Greene. He's been in contact with her very recently. And every Republican member who lives in a district where the former president is still very popular clearly recognizes that.

BLITZER: You know, Jamie, Kevin McCarthy says he supports Liz Cheney remaining in her current leadership position, the number three Republican in the House.

She did vote, one of 10 Republicans, to impeach the former president. She said this at the time: "The president of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and then lit the flame of this attack." Then she added: "There has never been a greater betrayal by a president of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution."

[18:10:14]

So, a lot of Republicans in the House, they totally disagree with what she said and what she did.

GANGEL: That's true, Wolf. But it was supposed to be a vote of conscience. It wasn't just Liz Cheney. There were 10 of them.

I will say this about Kevin McCarthy. He says he supports her, but -- there's always this but he has concerns. If he really supported her, we wouldn't be in this place today.

And a very influential Republican fund-raiser said to me that Kevin McCarthy's behavior today with Marjorie Taylor Greene, not removing her from those committees, was -- quote -- "a huge embarrassment and a failure of leadership. You don't speak to Marjorie Taylor Greene. You take action."

The other thing I -- there was one anecdote that a member just texted me from inside the meeting just now that I think also speaks to a certain tone.

Mike Kelly from Pennsylvania stood up and said that seeing Cheney's statement was like playing at a big football game and looking up to see your girlfriend sitting in the opposing team's stand, to which women in the caucus yelled at him: "Liz isn't your girlfriend."

So, there is just this running wild that Kevin McCarthy has let happen. That is not leadership, Wolf.

BLITZER: You know, Mia, when you and I spoke last week, you said Kevin McCarthy needed, in your words, to stand up and be the leadership that the Republican Party needs.

Do you believe he has done that? Has he stood up in the way you hoped?

LOVE: Well, it was just a week ago, and I'm still counting on him to stand up and do what he can to define what the Republican Party is.

We talked about this, fiscal discipline, limited government, personal responsibility. And the warning to him is this. If Republicans don't get it together, Democrats will continue to capitalize and you are going to see this play out for two years in front of the American people about who attacked Liz Cheney, who attacked Greene, and it has nothing to do with the policies that they stand for.

BLITZER: All right, guys, stand by, because we're waiting for this meeting to wind up. We will get some more information. We will check back.

I will also be speaking live with Senator Bernie Sanders about COVID relief, about President Biden's warning that Democrats will succeed or fail together. Bernie Sanders is standing by live. We will discuss with him when we come back.

And, meanwhile, there's another very chilling projection from the CDC about the deadly toll of the coronavirus.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:16:59]

BLITZER: We're standing by for the final outcome of that critical meeting of House Republicans under way right now and the fate of Representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene and Liz Cheney.

Also tonight, President Biden is urging Democrats to stick together and go big on COVID relief as they push forward with his $1.9 trillion package.

At the same time, he's signaling some, some wiggle room on targeting stimulus checks.

Let's go to our chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, the president spoke with House Democrats on the phone and then he met with key Senate Democrats. Update our viewers.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf, you're right that he said there is some wiggle room, just not a lot of wiggle room, because they have made clear that any changes and compromises they are going to make are going to be on President Biden's terms.

And Democrats are going along with that, because you saw they just passed that measure in the House a few moments ago. That is paving the way to get this bill passed without any Republican support, though Biden has continued to insist that he does want some. It's just going to be on his terms.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Met for an hour-and-a-half with the president.

COLLINS (voice-over): It was Senate Democrats' turn in the Oval Office today.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I welcome them all home. This is their new home, for a while anyway.

COLLINS: After President Biden met with the Republicans in those seats two days ago, he sounded hopeful about getting some of them on board with his coronavirus relief package, even as Democrats move forward without them.

BIDEN: Oh, we will get some Republican support. I think we will get some Republicans.

COLLINS: No congressional Republicans have signed on to Biden's plan so far, and Utah Senator Mitt Romney said it's unlikely any Republicans will support the plan if changes aren't made.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R), UTAH: If it goes forward without any changes from what was originally proposed, I would predict that not a single Republican will support the $1.9 trillion plan.

COLLINS: The president told House Democrats today he won't slash the $1.9 trillion price tag anywhere near the $618 billion that Republicans have suggested.

BIDEN: I'm not going to start my administration by breaking a promise to the American people.

COLLINS: Biden also said he won't scale back the $1,400 stimulus checks. But he said he was open to targeting them further.

BIDEN: Can't walk away from an additional $1,400 in direct checks we proposed, because people need it. And, frankly, they have been promised it. Maybe we can -- I think we can better target the number. I'm OK with that.

COLLINS: Noting the slim majorities that Democrats have in Congress, Biden encouraged Democrats to remain united.

BIDEN: So, let's stick together. COLLINS: Democrats are barreling ahead with Biden's big proposal, as

White House aides are knocking down suggestions from some Republicans that Biden was more willing to negotiate than his staff.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Our members who were in the meeting felt that the president seemed to be more interested in that than his staff did.

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Absolutely not. I have seen some of those reports. Many of them are ludicrous. There is no one who is going to tell him what to do or hold him back from his commitment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[18:20:00]

COLLINS: Now, Wolf, also in that Briefing Room, Jen Psaki, the White House press secretary, has been asked many times about Marjorie Taylor Greene and what the White House's thoughts on her are. They have refused to comment.

They did so again today when they were asked if they believed that she should be stripped of her committee assignments. Of course, this is a big subject of debate on Capitol Hill. People in the Senate have weighed in. Biden used to spend a lot of time there.

But the White House said they're not going to weigh in on that at all. And, instead, they're leaving it up to the Hill.

BLITZER: Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us, thank you.

Joining us now, Senator Bernie Sanders, the new chairman of the powerful Senate Budget Committee.

Senator, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on becoming chairman of this committee.

I know you were among the committee chairs who actually met with President Biden at the White House earlier today on this COVID relief plan. What sort of progress did you make in that meeting? Where does it stand right now?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, I think it stands in a very good place.

The point that the president made that has to be made over and over again is that we are living in a moment where tens and tens of millions of working-class and middle-class people are hurting.

These are people who are worried about being evicted from their homes. They're worried about feeding their kids. They're worried about being able to afford to go to the doctor. They're worried about seeing their kids get a decent education. They're worried about the need for vaccinations to be distributed faster than they are right now.

So, we face a terrible, terrible moment in American history, probably worse than any time since the Great Depression. And what President Biden was clear about is that now is the time to keep faith with the American people. The people are hurting. We're not going to turn our backs on them. We're going to go forward, and we're going to start dealing with some of these major crises in an effective way.

BLITZER: As you know, Senator, the president has said he's open to making some -- some -- stimulus checks more narrowly targeted.

Right now, they start phasing out for people earning $75,000, couples earning $150,000. Are you willing, you personally, Senator, to lower the eligibility for these checks? These are people, some of whom have lost their jobs, but many of them are still working.

SANDERS: No, the issue is not, I, think going below $75,000 for an individual or $150,000 for a couple.

The issue is that there is some spillover, if you have kids, that families making $250,000 or $300,000 may end up getting some assistance. And I think we can eliminate that.

But the truth of the matter is, these income levels are based on people's income of a year ago or even two years ago. Many of those people are hurting today. And the truth is, you can be making a family making $125,000 with a bunch of kids, you are struggling today.

So, what we have got to do is understand this crisis impacts the middle class. It impacts the working class. It impacts lower-income people. We are in this together.

Meanwhile, the very, very rich are becoming phenomenally richer. So, we need policies now where the government stands up for working families and the middle class and tells, by the way, the wealthiest people in this country, you know what, you're going to start paying your fair share of taxes.

BLITZER: It sounds like and you President Biden are on the same page on this issue.

Senator Mitt Romney, as you well know, he says not a single Republican will vote for the current Biden relief bill, the bill that -- as it currently stands.

We know President Biden would like to be -- to see some bipartisan support. Do you see that as a priority to make some changes to try to win over at least a few Republican votes?

SANDERS: No.

The priority that I see is addressing the crises facing working families. When you got millions of people out there worried about how they're going to feed their kids or how they're going to get enough income to pay the rent, that is the priority that we have to address.

And I think, as we move down the road, you're going to see people like Romney and other moderate-type Republicans coming on board, as we deal with infrastructure, as we deal maybe with the outrageously high cost of prescription drugs in this country.

We look forward to that bipartisanship. But, right now, tens of millions of working families, middle-class people, low-income people are in crisis. They need help. They need help now. That is the major priority that we have to address.

BLITZER: Are you worried, though, that you're going to need -- if no Republicans are going to support this legislation, you're going to need all 50 Democrats.

Are you worried about some Democrats like Senator Manchin of West Virginia, Senator Sinema of Arizona, for example, who have expressed some concern about some elements of the $1.9 trillion package?

SANDERS: Well, I can't speak for any other senator, but I think, at the end of the day, every Democrat in the U.S. Senate understands that people in his or her state are hurting.

I have got to tell you that, emotionally, in my own city of Burlington, Vermont, we're doing better than many other states, hundreds of people lined up in their cars for emergency food in order to feed their families, majority of whom have never received public assistance before.

[18:25:01]

That's going on all over the country. Every Democratic senator understands that. So, I believe that, at the end of the day, people are going to stand with the president of the United States and do the right thing for the American people.

And, second of all, we are in the majority today because we won two seats with great candidates in Georgia. And that election in Georgia became a national election. President Biden was involved. Chuck Schumer was involved. I was involved. Others were involved.

We made promises to the American people. And we said that every working-class, middle-class person in this country is going to get 1,400 bucks, on top of the $600. We are going to extend unemployment benefits. We're going to protect people from being evicted. We're going to expand health care. We are going to make sure that vaccines are distributed a lot faster than they previously had been.

Those were promises made, and those are promises that have got to be kept. And I will do my best to make sure that happens.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: It is always so heartbreaking when we see those people lining up in long lines simply to get some food...

SANDERS: Yes. That's right.

BLITZER: ... to feed their kids.

I often say it's so hard to believe -- and I'm sure you agree with me, Senator -- it's hard to believe we see these things here in the United States of America. So, that's one of the key issues facing the country right now.

Senator Sanders, thank you so much for joining us.

SANDERS: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Just ahead: new evidence emerging right now that the pandemic will remain very deadly in the weeks ahead, despite efforts to ramp up vaccinations.

And if you're planning a big Super Bowl party, Dr. Anthony Fauci has some very strong words of warning. Simply put, don't do it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

BLITZER: We're monitoring the breaking news up on Capitol Hill right now as House Republicans are considering taking action against Representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene and Liz Cheney.

Meantime, over at the Biden White House, they're renewing their declaration of war against COVID-19 amid the race to vaccinate the nation and slow the spread of new strains of the virus. The ongoing threat underscored right now by a new CDC forecast that another 85,000 Americans, 85,000 Americans may die by the end of this month over the next few weeks alone.

CNN's Nick Watt is following all of this for us. Nick, a very, very grim outlook for February.

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. The headline numbers today, we just passed 450,000 dead in this country, and still not quite 34 million vaccine shots in arms. There's still a lot of work to do.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFFREY ZIENTS, WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR: We are at war with this virus.

WATT (voice over): But is this country vaccinating fast enough to keep ahead of the spread of coronavirus variants?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We're not, because the situation is we still have a demand that far exceeds the supply.

WATT: Before a return to normalcy, Dr. Fauci says at least 70 percent of the U.S. population must be fully vaccinated. Right now, that number is under 2 percent.

These shots reduce your risk of illness. But do COVID-19 vaccines also reduce the risk you could still harbor the virus and spread it to others? Early data suggests the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine does just that, reduces the risk of transmission.

RICHARD HORTON, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE LANCET: Which is a stunning discovery if that's true.

WATT: This vaccine not yet authorized in the U.S.

FAUCI: I haven't seen the data yet. That's not yet been peer reviewed. I mean, I certainly have every reason to believe the Brits.

WATT: The CDC now projects another 85,000 Americans might die before the end of the month. The big fear, those more contagious variants.

DR. JAY VARMA, SENIOR ADVISER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR'S OFFICE: Plan on the assumption that there are a lot more cases of these variants than we know about.

WATT: Why? Because only these six states have genetically sequenced more than 1 percent of their cases, and that's how you find variants.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: Based on contact tracing and recent -- of recent variant cases, not wearing masks and participating in in-person social gatherings have contributed to the variant spread.

WATT: Vaccination and mitigation efforts should focus on the 20 to 49 age group, say researchers who found younger adults are the biggest spreaders of the virus. So planning a big indoor Super Bowl party this weekend, maybe don't.

FAUCI: As difficult as that is, at least this time around, just lay low and cool it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: Now, Switzerland just declined to authorize that AstraZeneca vaccine I was just talking about. They say that the data is not yet sufficient. The developers say they'll keep on giving the Swiss the data as they get it and point out that it is authorized in nearly 50 countries across four continents. My elderly Parents in Scotland just got their first dose. Wolf?

BLITZER: All right, good, good to hear. Thanks very much for that, Nick.

Joining us now, the former CDC Director, Tom Frieden. Thanks so much, Dr. Freiden, for joining us. The CDC says, as you just heard, another 85,000 Americans could die between now and the end of this month. And now the rise of these COVID variants could further complicate the vaccination efforts under way.

What do we need to do right now, Dr. Frieden, to ensure that we don't see another big surge?

[18:35:01]

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Well, we are far from out of the woods. And right now, we need to first get vaccinated when it's your turn. Second, double down on protection protocols. That means wearing a mask and avoiding indoor air with people who are not in your household. It also means reducing travel. And whoever you're rooting for this weekend, root for people against the virus and do that by staying apart from others. Figure out other ways to be together virtually.

BLITZER: Excellent advice. Some new research, as you heard, also indicates that younger adults, let's say, between 20 and 49, are responsible for more than75 percent of all transmission. Should we prioritize vaccinating those age groups as well or should we keep the focus on vaccinating older adults, people over 65?

FRIEDEN: There just isn't enough vaccine to go around at this time. So we need to keep it up with people over the age of 65. We need to also focus on nursing home residents and staff. We're lagging with staff. Black Americans are getting vaccinated at about half the rate of white Americans, even though they have two or three times the death rate.

So we've got to improve equity here by reaching out, engaging communities, figuring out ways to vaccinate that address equity issues with community leaders, the messengers and messages that are listened to, and we also need to do a better job protecting ourselves and each other by reducing those risky exposures.

BLITZER: Yes. And as you know, Dr. Frieden, some states are prioritizing teachers, for example, for vaccination, but that's not the case everywhere. CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said today that vaccinating teachers should not be a prerequisite for getting kids back into the classroom. First of all, do you agree?

FRIEDEN: I strongly agree with that. I think that's exactly right. Teachers should be prioritized for vaccination, but there isn't enough vaccine to go around now and we can't hold our kids' education hostage to teachers getting vaccinated. We now know from close to a year of experience that it's possible to open schools safely. We just have to do that carefully.

Now, some teachers who have underlying conditions or students with underlying conditions should not go in person, but, generally, schools should be the last to close, first to open. Our kids need in-person education, especially K through 8. And doing that is possible to do safely.

And closing schools isn't a way of avoiding all problems. It creates not just social, economic and educational problems but it also creates health problems for our kids.

BLITZER: Yes, we keep hearing the same advice from a lot of other doctors as well. Dr. Frieden, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for everything you're doing.

FRIEDEN: Thank you.

BLITZER: Just ahead, we're going to go inside the impeachment defense strategy outlined by former President Trump's lawyers with our own CNN Senior Legal Analyst Preet Bharara. He's standing by live. Plus, a very high-profile rioter in the Capitol siege goes on a hunger strike, demanding organic food while he is in jail.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

BLITZER: Tonight, as the disarray in the Republican Party is clearly playing out up on Capitol Hill, we're learning more about the Trump impeachment trial that's set to begin next week on the floor of the United States Senate. The former president's new lawyer says he'll focus on what he calls technical defenses.

Let's bring in CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, the former U.S. Attorney, Preet Bharara. Preet, thanks for joining us.

So, what technical defenses, as he's calling them, might we see from the former president's legal team?

PREET BHARARA, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I suppose the most significant technical defense is one that they assert in the document they filed with Congress and that there's already been a vote about and that is whether or not under the Constitution, as a technical legal matter, you can even have a Senate trial if the president is out of office. I think the massive legal expertise on this is against the president, but that's an argument that they'll put forward.

According to the document, they also may suggest, and it gets a little -- technical is the right word, that because it's arguable that there are multiple impeachable offenses described in the single article of impeachment, when it comes time for a vote, you may not know which senators were voting on which impeachable act in that article.

And if this was a regular criminal trial with all the rules of evidence and the other obligations of making sure that the verdict was proper, you would have something called a special verdict -- I'm already getting very technical for folks. You'd have something called a special verdict form so you know the people who are voting for conviction have a meeting of the minds as to what they're voting on. And there's a bunch of other things like that.

Clearly, whether it's smart to argue technicalities or not given that the president of the United States probably very forcefully wants a defense on the merits.

BLITZER: What does it tell you, Preet, that one of the Trump lawyers, Bruce Castor, does not intend to bolster Trump's defense with false claims of election fraud?

BHARARA: Well, it tells you, I think, that maybe he has a better ability to convince Donald Trump what's in his best interests and has a better ability to convince Donald Trump that, as a lawyer, he should make arguments only that are truthful and accurate. And I think it's a very difficult argument to make that the election results went the other way, that there was a landslide in favor of Donald Trump. So I think there's a bit of client management that goes in there. It also is probably smart in terms of strategy because you already know that dozens of Republicans are very likely to vote in favor of Trump, in favor of acquittal, and why give the ability to Democrats arguing -- to mock the arguments about the stolen election and attack them in their arguments in the well of the Senate?

[18:45:11]

And I think if you stay away from that and keep it sort of legalistic, it seems to be the strategy, maybe you pick some people off.

BLITZER: Yeah, there are, clearly, Trump's lawyers, much better off strictly trying to raise the constitutional issue that it's unconstitutional to go ahead and convict a former president, not a sitting president of the United States.

The lead House impeachment manager, Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland, just keeping quiet tonight about the Democrats' overall strategy, refusing to go into specifics.

What will be from your perspective, Preet, the most effective way for the Democrats, the impeachment managers, to make their case against the former president?

BHARARA: Well, they should do what they laid out in their 80-page brief to the congress, and that is meticulously marshal the facts that give the context to the statements made by Donald Trump on the morning of January 6th, not just that inciting language but also what he did with the secretary of state in Georgia, the things he was trying to do in Michigan, all of which show that Donald Trump was not supporting a mere protest or the use of language or political speech, he wanted change. He wanted to overturn the election.

And if they marshal the facts in a good way and play the videos they intend to play, and I hope they play them, I think they have a good shot at least convincing the public that's not already convinced that the president incited an insurrection.

BLITZER: Preet Bharara, thanks as usual for joining us.

BHARARA: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Just ahead, two members of the Proud Boys have been indicted in connection with the capitol riots. Stand by. We'll have the latest on the nationwide investigation.

Plus, a federal judge makes a decision on a high-profile capitol rioter's demand for organic food while serving in jail.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:51:17]

BLITZER: We are following breaking news. Two prominent members of the pro-Trump extremist group Proud Boys face conspiracy charges related to the deadly insurrection on Capitol Hill. CNN's Brian Todd is working the story for us.

Brian, what are you learning?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Wolf. The significance here is that those two members of the Proud Boys, their names Nicholas Ochs and Nicholas DeCarlo, face new conspiracy charges today in this case. Prosecutors alleging that they conspired to block certification of votes on January 6th that they planned and fundraised for that effort and then came to Washington and stormed past police and into the capitol.

The conspiracy, the planning and fundraising, the significant part of this indictment. We also have new information tonight on other ways that this investigation is widening.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): The investigation into capitol assault now going beyond what happened January 6th. CNN has learned tonight the FBI recently raided the California homes of two men connected with a group that cosponsored a rally near the Capitol the day before the riot. The raids were at the homes of Russell Taylor, and Alan Hostetter, from a group called the American Phoenix Project.

On January 5th, the group co-sponsored a rally near the Supreme Court and Taylor and Hostetter spoke in aggressive terms.

ALAN HOSTETTER, FOUNDER, AMERICAN PHOENIX PROJECT: We are at war in this country. We are at war tomorrow. Our voices tomorrow are going to put the fear of God in the cowards and the traitors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In these streets, we will fight and we will bleed before we allow our freedom to be taken for us.

TODD: Neither Taylor nor Hostetter have been charged with a crime. Both were seen near police lines at the riot on January 6th. Taylor's lawyer says his client went there peacefully, and never went inside the capitol. Hostetter hasn't responded to CNN's requests for comment.

The body of a capitol police officer, Brian Sicknick, who died of injury sustained in the riot laid in honor inside the capitol rotunda today. Top lawmakers paying tribute.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Brian was a peacekeeper who loved his dogs and girlfriend Sandra and his family and the New Jersey Devils. He was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and on a day when peace was shattered.

TODD: The investigation into Sicknick's death at a crossroads. Law enforcement officials familiar with the matter telling CNN investigators are struggling to build a murder case. Despite reviewing video and photographs, they have not identified a moment when he suffered his fatal injuries. They're looking at the possibility that Sicknick might have become ill from pepper spray or bear spray that was deployed in the crowd. JONATHAN WACKROW, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: We have evidence not

only from U.S. capitol surveillance systems, we have a lot of postings on social media, a lot of other videos and images. The challenge for law enforcement is actually combing through all of that to find the needle in the haystack.

TODD: Meanwhile, new information on how many of the charged have been identified. Of more than 180 people charged by federal prosecutors in connection with the assault, court records show at least two dozen cases involved tips from friends, former romantic partners, relatives, neighbors, old classmates.

Jackson Reffitt tipped off law enforcement about his own father Guy Reffitt who FBI documents say threaten to shoot his children if they turn him in.

JACKSON REFFITT, FATHER ARRESTED AFTER CAPITOL HILL RIOTS: I was worried, I didn't think he would do anything bad. But him saying anything remotely threatening to me and my sister and my family and government officials, it was just too much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[18:50:02]

TODD (on camera): And two of those charged in connection with the riot are raising eyebrows, a woman named Jenny Cod (ph) from Texas who the Justice Department says is unrepentant about her role in the riot, has asked the judge to allow her to travel to Mexico for a retreat related to her work. No word yet on response from that judge.

Jacob Chansley who wore a head dress and face paint, and carried a spear inside the capitol has been on a hunger strike in jail because he has not been allowed to have organic food while in jail. We just learned that a federal judge in Washington has ordered that Chansley should be given organic food, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Brian, thank you very much.

And we'll have more news right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Finally, we honor a remarkable man in our nightly tribute to those we've lost from the coronavirus.

Tom Moore of the United Kingdom was 100 years old and a World War II veteran. He raised millions for the U.K.'s National Health Service during the first wave of the pandemic by walking laps in his garden while in lockdown. Known affectionately as Captain Tom, he became an unlikely celebrity and icon, he even was knighted by Queen Elizabeth.

May he rest in peace, may his memory be a blessing.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.