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Harris Won't Say If She'd Pardon Trump In New Interview; Soon, Obama's Second Battleground Event For Harris Today; The Atlantic Reports, Trump Said, I Need The Kind Of Generals That Hitler Had; Judge: Giuliani Must Turn Over His Manhattan Penthouse, Valuable Possessions To Election Workers He Defamed; Blinken In Middle East As U.S. Tries To Revive Ceasefire Talks. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 22, 2024 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Happening now, breaking news, Kamala Harris has declined to say whether she would pardon Donald Trump if she wins the presidency in a brand new interview just two weeks before election day, this as former President Barack Obama is about to take part in his second battleground state event for Kamala Harris later today.

Also breaking, The Atlantic Magazine is reporting that then-President Donald Trump privately told at least two people in the White House that he needed, and I'm quoting him now, he needed the kind of generals that Hitler had. We'll discuss that and other bombshells in this new article.

Plus, a federal judge orders Rudy Giuliani to give control of his luxury items and his Manhattan apartment to two Georgia election workers he defamed. Will it cover the nearly $150 million in damages Giuliani owes them?

Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in The Situation Room.

It's a very, very busy night on the presidential campaign trail with only two weeks left until Election Day. We're standing by for a Trump rally in the swing state of North Carolina and a Kamala Harris campaign rally in Michigan led by former President Obama and featuring the rapper, Eminem.

CNN's Alayna Treene is standing by covering all the latest developments, including the Trump campaign. But, first, let's go to CNN's Priscilla Alvarez in the battleground state of Wisconsin, where a Democratic event just wrapped up.

Priscilla, there's breaking news on this new interview by the vice president, Kamala Harris. What stood out to you?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right. And what stood out was the vice president's answer to what concessions, if any, she would give to codify Roe. Of course, this has come up on the campaign trail multiple times, but her answer was essentially that she wasn't going to delve into hypotheticals. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I don't think we should be making concessions when we're talking about a fundamental freedom to make decisions about your own body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To Republicans like, for example Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, who would back something like this on a Democratic agenda, if, in fact, Republicans control Congress, would you offer them an olive branch or is that off the table? Is that not an option for you?

HARRIS: I'm not going to engage in hypotheticals, because we can go on with a variety of scenarios.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALVAREZ: Now, similarly, she said that she wouldn't engage in hypotheticals when she was asked whether she would pardon former President Donald Trump if she were elected in November. She was also asked about something that's come up with former President Barack Obama's remarks, whether sexism is what is factoring into some men not wanting to vote for the vice president. She wouldn't engage on that, instead keeping the focus on what she has said on the campaign trail about protecting fundamental freedoms.

And on that front, Wolf, reproductive freedom is going to be featured prominently over the next several days, including later this week when the vice president is going to go to Texas. A bit of an unusual stop in the final weeks of the election, but where her campaign believes they can amplify the issue of abortion going somewhere that they see as the epicenter of the Trump abortion ban. So, that is going to be an event looking forward.

But here in Wisconsin, former President Barack Obama appearing with Tim Walz as the campaign makes this transition now to getting out the vote. Of course, early voting is starting here today, and the resounding message from both the former president and Tim Walz was for people to get out to vote. So, that is going to be much of the focus over the next several days as they also under underscore the stakes of the election. Wolf?

BLITZER: All right. Priscilla Alvarez reporting for us, thank you very much.

I want to check in now for the latest updates from the Trump campaign. CNN's Alayna Treene is covering the former president for us. Alayna, so what is Trump saying?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, Wolf, today, Donald Trump kicked off his day today with a roundtable with Latino leaders. And he talked a lot about the economy, about immigration, about energy, all typical Trump speech, you know, rhetoric, but then he also very much leaned into his attacks on Kamala Harris. He called her low I.Q. He said that she isn't very intelligent and demeaned her in other ways. I want you to take a listen to what he said. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: She's sleeping right now.

[18:05:00]

She couldn't go on the trail. You know, you think when you have 14 days left, you wouldn't be sleeping.

Who the hell takes off when you have 14 days left? And she'll take a couple of more days off, too. You know why? She's lazy as hell.

There's something wrong with her, too. She's slow, low I.Q.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Wolf, as Priscilla mentioned Harris today has been doing some interviews and whatnot, but this is something Donald Trump is trying to seize on, as people have noted that he's been canceling his own events. Even today, he canceled a planned appearance with RFK Jr. and others, a virtual appearance, I should say.

But I do want to add that this roundtable this morning was really crucial to what the Trump campaign is trying to do right now, which is target any sort of demographic that they think could help them, particularly on the margins. They recognize that this election is going to be incredibly close. And that's why they're trying to not only siphon voters away from the Harris campaign, but also try to turn out low propensity voters.

And one key group is not only Latinos but Latino men. That has been a core focus of them. And you really heard Donald Trump aggressively pursue them during that roundtable this morning.

BLITZER: All right. Alana Treene reporting for us, Alayna, thank you very much.

I want to break all of this down with our political experts who are standing by, and, Eva McKend, let me start with you. Kamala Harris was asked in this new NBC News interview about what she would do if Trump were to declare an early victory in the election before all the votes are even counted. Listen to this. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: We've got two weeks to go. And I'm very much grounded in the present in terms of the task at hand, and we will deal with election night and the days after as they come, and we have the resources and the expertise and the focus on that as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you have teams ready to go? Is that what you're saying? Are you thinking about that as a possibility?

HARRIS: Of course. This is a person, Donald Trump, who tried to undo a free and fair election, who still denies the will of the people, who incited a violent mob to attack the United States Capitol and 140 law enforcement officers were attacked. Some were killed. This is a serious matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And, Eva, as you know, Trump earlier today cast doubts on the election results. Let's watch this. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Let's see what happens. Because it all doesn't matter because, you know, bad things happen. Some very, very bad things happened last time. But this time we don't have COVID and it's going to be a lot harder for them to do bad things. So, we're going to see.

We have tremendous people. We have tremendous -- we have a lot of lawyers working. We have lawyers working, numbers of lawyers that nobody's ever seen before, because we're not going to play games.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Eva, as you know, that's a striking contrast to one the Harris campaign has been trying to play up, right?

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: It is. You know, her central argument is that the former president is unfit for the presidency, that he exhibits behavior that demeans the office. That is what she often says. And, to me, this is an appeal not only disaffected Republicans, because there are going to be Republicans, for sure, who don't agree with her on a whole host of policy matters, but the argument that they're making is that this election is not that. This is existential.

This is about the future and health of our democracy. And it's an argument that they can also sell to the left as well who disagree with her on a whole host of issues, too.

But, you know, when the former president makes these comments, these types of comments, it gives the vice president more fuel to really make this broader argument that she wants to make.

BLITZER: Scott Jennings is with us as well. Scott, how do you see it?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think, number one, he was articulating something that a lot of Republicans have wondered about since 2020, and that is in the 2020 election, there were a lot of rules changes that changed the way people could vote. There was more voting by mail, et cetera, et cetera. Now you don't have that. He's absolutely right. And, in fact, we're seeing fewer people vote early and by mail in some of the ways they did in 2020. So, I think that's a true statement. Maybe more people will wind up voting on Election Day.

So, you know, I think right now Republicans feel pretty good about where they stand at the end of the election. I think he feels like he's on a trajectory to win. I think people in the party feel like Republicans are turning out in places that they need to turn out. So, right now, you know, it's steady as she goes for the Trump campaign. I don't think they have to throw any Hail Marys here in the last two weeks to close it out.

BLITZER: Mandela Barnes is joining us as well. Mandela, how much does Kamala Harris have to focus on making the case against Trump versus laying out her own positions and her own agenda for voters?

MANDELA BARNES, SENIOR FELLOW, PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY: Well, I'll just say first that Donald Trump has never really articulated much of anything. And everything he has been saying in these last few days has been a Hail Mary. But Kamala Harris has to do both.

[18:10:00]

You have to make the appeal and still introduce yourself to the American public as well as call out Trump's nonsense, who he has been as a president and who he vows to be if given a second opportunity in the highest office in the land. And I think she's doing both quite well. She's showing up everywhere doing as much as I've ever seen in any presidential campaign. It's really quite stellar.

But for her to be able to win over states like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, she is going to have to do both at the same time, which feels impossible, but she's done a pretty good job of it so far.

BLITZER: Eva, as you know, Harris was also asked about whether she would pardon Trump if he were convicted for more crimes. I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: I'm not going to get into those hypotheticals. I'm focused on the next 14 days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But do you believe -- is there any part of you that subscribes to the argument that has been made in the past that a pardon could help bring America together, could help unify the country and move on?

HARRIS: Let me tell you what's going to help us move on. I get elected president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, Eva, how significant is that?

MCKEND: I think I would expect that type of answer from her. If you listen to the vice president closely, she's very precise in her language. She often says that she doesn't like to sort of be off the cuff or speculate, because given her history as a prosecutor, she has a firm understanding that the words that she uttered could have dramatic and significant consequences.

So, I don't see her waxing poetic about an issue like that that is so serious. That would require counsel with advisers, prayer, taking the temperature of the country in the moment. I mean, a lot would go into something that serious. And so I don't even know how appropriate it is to really answer that question at this stage when voters are just starting to vote, and we are at least two weeks away from the election even being decided.

BLITZER: Mandela, what does it say to you that Kamala Harris won't commit to answering that question?

BARNES: I mean, that's nothing to commit to right now, so we'll cross that bridge when we get there. I think the fact is we're so used to Donald Trump saying things that are either untrue, politically viable or out of bounds of the law. And there's this new set of standard it feels like, and it's refreshing to see Kamala Harris not subject herself to that staying standard making the statement, answering that question in a way that really reflects the reality of a situation if she becomes president.

Who can say at this point what they would do if given the opportunity? Now, sure, people may have ambitions. You know, me myself, I think that Donald Trump should be held responsible for his crimes, but I'm not running for president. Kamala Harris is making her case to the American people and also for folks again in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, who are trying to put food on the table, people in school districts that lack adequate funding.

The issue of a Donald Trump pardon is not important. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the opportunity economy that Kamala Harris is trying to build for the American people.

BLITZER: Let me go back to Scott. Scott, can Kamala Harris really answer this question either way without drawing significant backlash?

JENNINGS: Yes, I think she actually did it correctly. If I were running for president, I wouldn't comment on any pardons. I wouldn't comment on criminal justice matters that may be pending when you become, if you become commander-in-chief.

Now, I did read before we came on the air that apparently Joe Biden, the current president, said today at an event that Trump needs to be locked up, and then may have tried to correct himself. But, you know, when you're running for president, when you are the president, when you sit at the top of the executive branch, you have to be exceedingly careful about this. And so I concur, if I were her, I wouldn't comment on any hypothetical pardons that may be sitting out there in the future.

BLITZER: All right. Everyone stand by, there's a lot more we need to discuss.

Just ahead, a damning new report out tonight from The Atlantic Magazine, quoting then President Trump as saying he wanted military generals like Adolf Hitler had. And that's not all.

Stay with us. You're in The Situation Room.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:15:00]

BLITZER: We're following more breaking news on a truly bombshell article in the new issue of The Atlantic Magazine on what it describes as Donald Trump's preoccupation with dictators and his disdain for the U.S. military. It says, as Trump's presidency was coming to a close, he says, and I'm quoting now, I need the kind of generals Hitler had.

The Atlantic reports that Trump said this in a private conversation in the White House according to two people who heard him say it. The article says Trump went on to add that Hitler had, and I'm quoting again right now from the article, people who were totally loyal to him that follow orders, end quote. The Trump campaign tells CNN he never said this, and the quote is, quote, absolutely false.

Another very disturbing angle reported by The Atlantic magazine involves Trump agreeing to pay for the funeral of a 20-year-old Army private who was bludgeoned to death by a fellow soldier at Fort Hood in Texas back in 2020. The Atlantic describes an exchange when Trump found out how much the funeral costs.

According to The Atlantic, Trump became angry and said, and I'm quoting now, it doesn't cost $60,000, $60,000 to bury. And you can see what he says on the screen. You can see on the screen the foul language he used to describe the soldier who was the daughter, by the way, of Mexican immigrants.

The Atlantic writes that Trump turned to his chief of staff, Mark Meadows, and issued an order, don't pay it. Later that day, he was still agitated, saying, and I'm quoting, now according to the article, can you believe it? He said, according to a witness swearing again, Trump complained, people are trying to rip me off.

[18:20:04]

The Trump campaign also denies that part of the story, and gave this statement to CNN about the article, and I'm quoting now. President Donald Trump has spent his life caring for America's military heroes. As president, he kept our troops out of harm's way, secured the largest pay raise for our troops in a decade and signed historic V.A. reforms.

As a private citizen, he has financially supported veterans and has forcefully advocated for the Kabul Gold Star families. There has been no greater advocate for our brave military men and women than Donald J. Trump, close quote.

Let's continue to discuss what's going on. Our political experts are still with us. And, Scott Jennings, on this truly shocking claim in this new Atlantic article that Trump said he needed the kind of generals Hitler had, even though the Trump campaign denied this, two sources in the room confirmed it to The Atlantic Magazine. What's your reaction to what Trump reportedly said here?

JENNINGS: My reaction to this entire article is one of skepticism. I was keying in on -- I didn't get a chance to read the whole thing as we were going on the air, but I was keying in on the story about Private Guillen and her family has come out today and strongly refuted this and said, Donald Trump treated them with respect. And so if that part of the story is being refuted by Guillen's family, it makes me question the whole thing.

So, you know, I wasn't there. I haven't had any conversations with anybody about any of these issues. But two weeks to go before an election and these kinds of anonymously sourced bombshells drop, I'm skeptical.

BLITZER: Well, let me ask you this, Scott. If you support Donald Trump, do you support the way he described this murdered soldier, as reported in this story?

JENNINGS: Well, everybody involved in that episode, people who were in the room, her family, I mean, everybody who was involved in this has said that didn't happen. Mark Meadows, everybody who was there is saying it didn't happen that way. So, again, I've got a bunch of people saying I was there and it didn't happen. And then I have this article two weeks before an election with anonymous sources saying that it did.

So, look, I'm, you know, I'm a skeptic by nature. We're two weeks before an election and this kind of a bombshell that's like anonymously sourced, I'm skeptical of the whole thing. And admittedly, I'm seeing this, you know, just a few minutes before we went on tonight.

BLITZER: Well, Mandela, what's your reaction?

BARNES: We could be as skeptical as we want to, but is this really a departure from anything that Donald Trump has said previously? This totally lines up. It is very parallel with past statements. It is very parallel with current statements, especially as his comments become increasingly deranged in the homestretch of this election.

So, regardless of, you know, how do you feel personally about it, it's not any different from what we've heard. Donald Trump is going to continue to be a desperate person. I can guarantee you he will likely say something as bad, if not worse, in these next two weeks.

BLITZER: Eva, how do you think the Harris campaign is going to react to these revelations?

MCKEND: Well, I think that they are going to continue to characterize these comments as illustrative that he is unfit for the office. But I think the challenge for the former president here is, you know, we don't know if these comments are true, but they are in the arena of comments that he says publicly. So, he publicly disparages Mexicans and Mexican-Americans. He often talks about stiffing people and not paying bills, right? So, it just sounds way too close to things that he already says.

I'll end with this, Wolf. You know, separate and apart from this Atlantic article, what strikes me being on the campaign trail with the vice president is that the standards for her, in terms of rhetoric, seem so much different. She is so precise. Sometimes she's criticized as being too scripted, too rehearsed. But it seems like she can't, you know, wax poetic like the former president does. If she said these kind of outrageous comments, many would argue that she is unfit for the presidency.

And so I just think that that is important to keep in mind as we are covering these campaigns. You know, this Atlantic article is one thing, but even the public comments that the former president makes are so alarming sometimes, and it's easy to become numb to it.

BLITZER: Scott, as you know, and all of us know, Trump has been ramping up this exact kind of authoritarian rhetoric for a while. I want you to listen and watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It is the enemy from within, and they're very dangerous. They're Marxists and Communists and fascists, and they're sick. I use a guy like Adam Schiff because they made up the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.

If you have a smart president, they can all be handled. The more difficult are, you know, the Pelosis. These people, they're so sick.

How about allowing people to come to an open border 13,000 of which were murderers, many of them murdered far more than one person, and they are now happily living in the United States?

[18:25:07]

You know, now a murderer, I believe, it's in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now.

They're poisoning the blood of our country. That's what they've done. They poison mental institutions and prisons all over the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, why do you think Republicans by and large are excusing these kinds of statements?

JENNINGS: Well, I think some of the statements are taken out of context and I think are being exploited by the Harris campaign. And I think repeatedly during this campaign, he has said things, and maybe you think they're on the edge, but then I think the Democrats take them and run them way out of bounds.

I mean, we've talked about some on this show before, the bloodbath thing, for instance, which I think has completely been lied about.

So, I think when Republicans see Democrats, Taking things out of context or you know, exaggerating what Donald Trump has said, it causes them to discount every other attack that they see from Democrats.

So, I think also at the end of an election, rhetoric gets hot. I think it's going to get hot in both parties. And I think a lot of American voters, the closer we get to Election Day, the less alarmed or impactful some statements are from either campaign.

BLITZER: All right. Guys, thanks to all of you. I appreciate it very, very much.

Just a note to our viewers, be sure to watch CNN's town hall with Vice President Kamala Harris tomorrow night, 9:00 P.M. Eastern, right here on CNN.

And coming up, the veteran journalist, Bob Woodward, is here. We'll discuss the new article on Donald Trump and what Kamala Harris is saying about whether she would pardon the former president.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

BLITZER: Let's get back to our top story, the race for the White House entering its final two weeks amid a bombshell, a new report from The Atlantic Magazine on stunning comments Donald Trump reportedly made while he was president.

The Atlantic Magazine's editor, Jeffrey Goldberg, who writes about a conversation Trump had while still president, and I'm quoting now from the article, these are quotes allegedly made by Trump. I need the kind of generals that Hitler had, Trump said, in a private conversation in the White House. That according to two people who heard him say this, people who were totally loyal to him, that follow orders. Trump's campaign is strongly denying this.

Joining us now, the legendary, the great journalist, Bob Woodward, he's the author of a brand new book, entitled War. And we'll discuss that in a moment, Bob. Thanks very much for coming in.

What's your reaction to this? Does this sort of fit in? You've interviewed Trump many times, and you've written about some of these kinds of things in War.

BOB WOODWARD, AUTHOR, WAR: Yes, Wolf, he will say things, there's no question about that, but I think we're now at a point, what, two weeks before the campaign, we can really look at how Trump operates, not just what he says, and the picture of how he operates is very clear. He does not plan. He just says anything, I mean, like the other day saying that President Zelenskyy of Ukraine was responsible for the invasion of his country. It just makes no sense.

So, Trump doesn't plan, and he does not have a team of people who support him in a way. So -- and you need to -- that absence means you never know what's going to come out in terms of policy. Well, you can't run the presidency that way. You really -- I know when he was president. I spent hours talking to him.

BLITZER: You interviewed him a dozen times or so.

WOODWARD: Yes, yes. And, you know, there is a serendipity that I guess lots of people, where I know a lot of people find refreshing, but you can't the presidency needs to be somewhat coherent, and there needs to be a plan, and you need to have people out there who are part of the team.

So, we see Trump just kind of flapping there on his own, Well, you know, that doesn't work in the presidency. It doesn't work in an organization like CNN or The Washington Post. You need some kind of glue and logic.

BLITZER: And you have some major revelations, explosive revelations in your book, War, as well. What's been the reaction so far to what you're getting from what's in War?

WOODWARD: Well, a lot of silence from people who know it's true, not much denial, people wanting to distance themselves sometimes, but they know it's true, and it is. But it is a story of an arc, not just about Trump, very much about Trump, but about Biden, and some of the things, the very sensible things in the interest of this country that Joe Biden did, not sending U.S. ground troops to the war in Ukraine.

Someday he may get the Nobel Peace Prize for that, because very, very important, so we don't have another Vietnam. Biden's old enough to remember Vietnam. He's someone who, going back to the time he was vice president, would fight Obama and say, no, let's not send 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan.

There is a sometimes a feeling in the presidency that troops are a bandage.

[18:35:04]

Somebody like Biden who has seen it, it goes astray and you can still protect the national security mission of the country by not sending the U.S. troops.

BLITZER: Knowing Trump, as you do, as I pointed out, you spent a lot of time reporting about him, did anything in Jeffrey Goldberg's new article in The Atlantic really jump out at you and say, that's crazy, That sounds weird, or did it all sound reasonable?

WOODWARD: No, it sounds reasonable. Jeffrey's a terrific reporter. I'm sure he had sources that were firsthand who heard things like this and so forth, and it's part of the portrait of Trump. I want to know what is his mode of operating, how does he make decisions that are vital in the presidency? And it's Helter Skelter. It is incoherent. And that's what people ought to think about. They may like him or they may say Helter Skelter is a great way to run an institution, like the American government.

BLITZER: Well, it's a great book that you wrote, War. Let me recommend it very, very highly. You learn something almost on every page. And I read this book. You did an amazing job, as you always do, the legendary Bob Woodward.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

BLITZER: And the book is entitled War. That's the name. All right, thank you very much for coming.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

BLITZER: I appreciate it very much. Just ahead, former President Obama is set to rally voters in Michigan as he seeks to keep the blue wall intact for Democrats. A key Obama insider is here live. We'll get some insight on the former president's strategy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

BLITZER: Let's get back to our coverage of the race for the White House with Election Day now just two weeks away. Former President Barack Obama is dramatically stepping up his campaign on behalf of Kamala Harris in must-win states, like Wisconsin and Michigan.

Joining us now, the podcast hosted former Obama speech writer Jon Lovett. Jon, thanks very much for joining us.

Here's a little bit of what Obama said just in Wisconsin a short while ago. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You're running for president and you're hawking merchandise. Gold sneakers, $100,000 watch, supposed to be Swiss watch, he says, the best watch. Why are you selling a watch?

There are questions about his competence. I mean, there are -- he's out there giving two-hour speeches. It's like Fidel Castro just keeps on talking. It's just word salads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, Jon, what did you make of what we just heard from your old boss earlier today?

JON LOVETT, HOST, POD SAVE AMERICA AND LOVETT OR LEAVE IT: Put it in my veins, Wolf. I like it. I like it. You know, first of all, just seeing President Obama back on the trail, it's just like -- it feels good. There's nobody better -- like I think everybody that is paying close attention to this race has this feeling of like you're watching Donald Trump, right? And you have to have these two ideas side by side in your mind. One, he is a menace to democracy. He's threatening to sic troops on protesters. We got a story today that John Kelly told The Atlantic that he thought Tiananmen Square was an example of what he wanted to see from his generals. By the way, John Kelly, you could say it on camera. You put -- turn your zoom on.

And then the other hand, you got this guy clowning around rambling for hours dancing, bobbing and weaving. And how do you put those two things together? And I think what you see President Obama doing in these speeches is putting those two things together, which is this is somebody who is a fundamentally unserious person, but that doesn't mean he's not dangerous. He may be a clown but he's threatening to do really harmful things.

BLITZER: CNN's Edward-Isaac Dovere reports the Harris campaign wants voters to focus on the dangers from a second Trump administration. Listen to what Pollster Frank Luntz said earlier today about that. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER AND COMMUNICATIONS STRATEGIST: Trump basically has reached the ceiling of his vote and it's enough for him to win. Let me be clear about that.

Harris has a higher ceiling. I agree with her campaign in that assertion. But she's not going to get there until she gives voters what they need to know to have faith, trust, and confidence in her. It's a good strategy that she's doing, but I assure you, if she's just beating up on Donald Trump, she's going to fail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, Jon, how does she balance talking about Trump with telling voters about her plans?

LOVETT: Yes, she has to do both. They are doing both. They are running contrast ads that are about not only the threat Trump poses, but what Kamala Harris will do to make people's lives better is a story about what does best with undecided voters. And it was Kamala Harris's proposal to help people afford at home care. So, they're doing, they're doing both.

And there are a bunch of people that Kamala Harris has to turn out, and it's about whether they're going to vote for Kamala or not vote at all. Trump's got people that are the kind of voters that are unlikely to vote that he's trying to turn out, and then there are this small group of undecideds, and you're trying to make sure they understand not only the danger that Kamala Harris poses -- I'm sorry, the danger that Donald Trump poses but what Kamala Harris will do to improve their day-to-day lives.

BLITZER: Trump will record an interview with Joe Rogan for his podcast on Friday. Rogan, as you know, has a big audience, especially with young men. Do you think that should -- should Harris should speak with him as well?

[18:45:05]

LOVETT: Yes, I think Kamala Harris should do as much as she can possibly do. I mean, she's barnstorming across the country. She's doing tons of pressing. The more Kamala, the better. The question is, is the more Trump, the better? Like if you go look -- you know, Trump's doing a bunch -- he's canceling on mainstream interviews. He's canceling on tough interviews and then he's sitting down for these softer interviews.

He's talking to the Dan Bonginos of the world, and he's going on podcast with comedians and whatever. And that's probably smart of them to do. But the idea that like Trump rambling for two hours on a podcast is automatically a net benefit for him, I'm not so sure. He did a podcast the other day with the comedian.

You just click in anywhere into that two-hour rambling appearance and you will find just abject nonsense for her minutes on end and maybe he comes across as affable in some way, but he also doesn't come across as a particularly inspiring president.

BLITZER: Jon Lovett, thanks so much for joining us.

Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: And coming up, details on today's ruling, ordering Rudy Giuliani to give personal possessions, including his Manhattan penthouse apartment to the two election workers he defamed.

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[18:50:28]

BLITZER: A federal judge has just ordered former Trump attorney and New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani to hand over some of his most valuable possessions, including his Manhattan penthouse apartment, to the two Georgia election workers he defamed.

Brian Todd is working the story for us.

Brian, this is all part of a $150 million judgment against Giuliani.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Wolf. And it's very unlikely that Giuliani will ever be able to pay all of that off. Tonight, the man once celebrated as America's mayor is losing many of the status symbols of his once-great star power.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: I know crimes, I can smell them.

TODD (voice-over): Tonight, a federal judge has ordered Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump's former lawyer, and the former mayor of New York City, to turn over several of his valuable possessions to the control of Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, two Georgia election workers who Giuliani defamed.

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: He's going to essentially be facing essentially ruinous liability that he can't ever hope to meet.

TODD: Giuliani owes Freeman and Moss about $150 million from the defamation judgment against him. The judge has ordered him to turn over his luxury Manhattan apartment, which she recently tried to sell for around $5 million to a receivership that Freeman and Moss will control. They could then potentially sell it.

The judge has also ordered Giuliani to turn over a collection of watches, a signed Joe DiMaggio jersey, and other sports memorabilia, a 1980 Mercedes once owned by Hollywood star Lauren Bacall, and he's been ordered to forfeit his television, items of furniture, and jewelry. The judge has not yet decided if Giuliani will be able to keep his condominium in Palm Beach, Florida, or the four New York Yankees World Series rings he owns.

Giuliani's son says his father gave those rings thanks to him. In the days after the 2020 election, Giuliani falsely accused Freeman and Moss of corrupting the vote count in Georgia.

GIULIANI: They're surreptitiously passing around USB ports as if they're vials of heroin or cocaine.

TODD: Giuliani has conceded that he did make defamatory statements about Freeman and Moss.

But when he was approached at this year's Republican National Convention by CNN's Kaitlan Collins and asked if he regretted that --

GIULIANI: I have no regrets at all. I'm on the side of justice, right, and truth.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Are you worried about them being able to seize your New York apartment, your Florida condo?

GIULIANI: Did I explain to you that I'm not afraid of anything? Because I'm on the side of justice and right. And when history writes about this era, I'm going to be a hero.

TODD: But in 2022, during testimony before the House January 6 Committee, Freeman and her daughter Moss spoke about the emotional stress they endured due to Giuliani's characterizations of them.

SHAYE MOSS, GEORGIA ELECTION WORKER: I don't want anyone knowing my name. I don't go to the grocery store all. I haven't been anywhere at all.

RUBY FREEMAN, GEORGIA ELECTION WORKER: I've lost my name and I've lost my reputation. Ive lost my sense of security.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): Rudy Giuliani's spokesman has not immediately responded to requests for comment about the judge's latest order. A lawyer for Freeman and Moss sent CNN a statement saying they're proud that their clients will find finally received compensation in this case, and that this should send a message that there's a price to pay for those who intentionally spread disinformation.

The judge has scheduled a hearing for next week on the fate of Giuliani's condominium in Florida -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Brian Todd, reporting for us -- thank you, Brian, very much.

Coming up, the urgent message being delivered in person to Benjamin Netanyahu today by America's top diplomat, and how the Israeli prime minister is reacting to calls to end the war.

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[18:58:25]

BLITZER: In the Middle East tonight, U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken is urging Israel to take a fresh look at ceasefire talks just days after IDF forces killed the Hamas leader, Yahya Sinwar, in Gaza.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is joining us live from Tel Aviv right now with an update.

Jeremy, what is the secretary's message?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, during a two and a half hour meeting today with the Israeli prime minister, Secretary Blinken made very clear that the United States sees this as an important opportunity in the wake of the killing of Yahya Sinwar to end the war in Gaza and strike a deal to bring the hostages home.

The Israeli prime minister wouldn't quite commit to that. In a statement from his office, they said that they view the killing of Sinwar as something that is, quote, likely to have a positive influence on bringing the hostages home and achieving the objectives of the war. That's not exactly an endorsement to get right back to the negotiating table.

And indeed in Gaza, Israel is not taking its foot off the gas. We are watching as the humanitarian situation there is continuing to deteriorate amid this Israeli offensive that's been going on over the last two weeks in northern Gaza. The water supply has now run out in the city of Jabalia, which has been effectively under siege by the Israeli military. And we're hearing of hospitals that are running out of basic medical supplies, including units of blood, for example.

And so, the humanitarian situation in Gaza was also a focus we're told of Blinken's message to Netanyahu today, a week after the U.S. sent this letter urging Israeli officials to take major steps over the next 30 days to improve the humanitarian situation or risk losing military aid.

We're told that the Israeli prime minister denied in this private meeting that Israel is implementing any form of this generals' plan, which effectively calls for forcing hundreds of thousands of people out of northern Gaza and then laying siege to any of those who remain. The Israeli prime minister denying that privately, but when U.S. officials urged him to do so publicly, so far, we haven't heard that -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv, thanks very much.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.