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Officials Say Pentagon Unlikely To Use Billions In Ukraine Aid Before Biden Leaves As Trump Team Weighing Plans To End War; Sean Diddy Combs Denied Bail For A Third Time; Israel-Hezbollah Ceasefire Still Holding After Nearly 24 Hours; Ohio Governor Signs Bill Limiting Bathroom Use By Transgender Students; U.S. Secures Release Of Three Americans In Prisoner Swap With China. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired November 27, 2024 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: Let's get right to that breaking news this hour on the Biden administration's race to send crucial aid to Ukraine before President-elect Trump's inauguration. Now, this comes as we're also learning new details about the Trump team's potential strategy to end the war between Russia and Ukraine.

CNN Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny is here along with CNN Pentagon Correspondent Oren Liebermann. Oren, I want to start with you. Walk us through your new reporting about this U.S. aid for Ukraine.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The U.S. has been trying at a steady pace to send as much aid as it can to Ukraine, and it has roughly $6.8 billion left in the authority to send weapons, equipment and systems to Ukraine. But the pace was way off. They were only sending a few hundred million a month, right about $750 million over the course of the last few months. And it wasn't apparently going to be able to use all of those billions it has left.

Now, five U.S. officials, with whom CNN has spoken, acknowledge the Biden administration is unlikely to be able to use all of that before January 20th. They will try to increase the amount going over, but all of that $6.8 billion, unlikely to all of it be used. Of course, that's a huge deal for Ukraine, which has relied on U.S. and NATO weapons to be able to try to fight Russia as well as it can across the frontlines. Ukraine and its military have very much relied on that weaponry. So, this could be a significant blow to them as they were expecting or at least needing some of these crucial systems.

Now, one U.S. official we spoke with says it's up to the Trump administration when it comes on January 20th to decide what to do with what might be billions left over in that authority to send supplies. Either they could cut off the weapons and the flow of weapons that are already heading over in fairly large numbers until January 20th, or they could keep sending it or not announce any new military aid packages. That effectively will be up to the Trump administration when it enters the White House in 55 days or so.

MARQUARDT: In a word, we've just learned that Trump's pick to be special envoy to Ukraine is someone named General Keith Kellogg, who actually worked for Mike Pence in the last Trump administration. What do we know about him and what do we know about his own proposal to end the war in Ukraine?

LIEBERMANN: So, we've spoken to a couple of sources familiar with these discussions and retired Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg has briefed or spoken to the incoming national security adviser, Mike Waltz, on his plan for at least trying to move forward with negotiations and getting towards the end of a war.

His idea, according to sources familiar with these conversations, is to condition aid to Ukraine on Ukraine participating in negotiations, in good faith negotiations, to try to get to an end of the war, basically tell Ukraine, if you don't come to these negotiations and participate, we're not going to continue to flow weapons to you.

Now, it's not the only plan under consideration. One of the other potential picks, as we've reported, for the special envoy to Ukraine and Russia with Rick Grenell had his own ideas. He suggested setting up autonomous zones along the frontline there to try to bring this war to an end. Meanwhile, another member of the Trump team, who will be a member of the National Security Council, also suggested the U.S. might send even more weapons under the incoming Trump administration.

Alex, in short, it'll be up to Trump in the end, but these are the ideas that are being presented to him and his team. And, crucially, we now know his pick for special envoy to Ukraine, and we have a better sense of what his idea is.

MARQUARDT: Yes, a lot of speculation, but few specific so far. Jeff Zeleny, I want to go to you. Trump, of course, has been very critical of U.S. aid for Ukraine. He has vowed to end this war in 24 hours. He says that he knows how to do it. How much of a priority is ending the war for the Trump team right now?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It's absolutely a priority. I mean, of course, there is a long list of things that the president-elect would like to do on day one, but Ukraine is, certainly, if not at the top, quite near the top of that list. We have heard repeatedly for months on the campaign trail of the former president talking explicitly about how if he was in office this would not have happened. Of course, that is an open question, to say the least, but he is absolutely intent on trying to end the conflict there.

But, Alex, it's more complicated than just a ceasefire. If there is a ceasefire, the negotiations of what come next are certainly a challenge at the very least for this administration and the reshaping of the region potentially. And this is also one of the political battles that we're going to see play out likely next year.

Mitch McConnell, of course, the outgoing Republican Senate leader, is no longer going to be in leadership, but he is going to be in a leading position, a voice of authority among the Republicans who are still hawkish, if you will. So, this is one of the big divides inside the Republican Party. We will see sort of how that plays out with the president-elect.

But he's definitely interested in trying to end the war. Of course, that's easier said than done. The question is how and exactly what he will do in that front. One thing, of course, we all remember is how he pressured a European allies and a NATO to pay more of their share.

[18:05:00]

Expect similar arguments to come back as soon as he's in office.

MARQUARDT: Yes, and as a result, a lot of nervousness in European capitals and, of course, in Kyiv. Jeff Zeleny and Oren Liebermann, thank you both very much.

Let's bring in CNN Military Analyst, retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton and Evelyn Farkas, who is a deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia and Ukraine. Thank you both for being with me.

Evelyn, I want to start with you. You heard that Trump officials are expected to try to freeze this conflict in order to make way for negotiations. What's your sense so far from what we're hearing of those early moves that Trump could make to end this war?

EVELYN FARKAS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MCCAIN INSTITUTE: Well, Alex, it sounds like he could certainly threaten, as you've already suggested and Jeff suggested, you know, he would threaten the Ukrainians with cutting off assistance if they didn't play ball, if they didn't negotiate in good faith. The Ukrainians, of course, are happy to negotiate and, in fact, they would probably welcome a bit of a pause.

I just came back from Ukraine about two weeks ago. People there are quite tired. Of course, President Trump now also has to put some kind of pressure on Vladimir Putin, and the question is whether he will do what he suggested in the past that he will tell Vladimir Putin if he doesn't negotiate, he'll continue to provide arms to Ukraine.

MARQUARDT: Cedric, you just heard Oren also talking about General Keith Kellogg, who was just named Ukraine envoy. He has proposed this plan that calls for that military aid to be conditioned on Kyiv, depending on whether they participate in potential peace talks with Russia. What is your reaction as a former military man to Kellogg getting this position? What could it mean, do you think, for the level of U.S. support and Ukraine's eventual possible NATO membership?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that's going to be really interesting, Alex, to see exactly how this plays out, because a lot of the details, as we've talked about, are kind of vague at this point. But I think General Kellogg is a better choice than former Ambassador Grenell. It would have been because General Kellogg at least has an understanding of the military situation in Ukraine. He also has an understanding of some of the nuances involved in the Ukraine situation.

Now, the one thing that I think would be positive for Ukraine is the idea that if Russia does not negotiate in a way that is acceptable to the United States, then, of course, the risk is that to Russia would be that the United States would reopen a spigot of aid to the Ukrainians. But as we've seen with the $7 billion, so that's in the pipeline right now, spending that wisely and spending that effectively will definitely be a challenge, especially if it's a short notice type situation.

MARQUARDT: And, Evelyn, of course, the U.S. has a quite a bit of leverage over Ukraine because they send so much aid, but what about on the Putin side? He has shown little willingness to negotiate. His forces are taking more and more territory every day in Ukraine, particularly in the eastern part of Ukraine. Why do you think he would negotiate now. And if he's less than willing, how could the incoming Trump administration compel him to?

FARKAS: Yes. I mean, Vladimir Putin thinks that time is on his side and that he'll get a better deal with President Trump. He thinks that although his economy is very strained and he doesn't have sufficient manpower and he doesn't want to call for a full mobilization of Russian men, which is why he brought in the North Korean men, he still thinks that he can hang in there and outlast the Ukrainians. But if President Trump is credible in basically threatening to provide Ukraine with what it needs to retake territory and to hold onto the Russian territory, then that puts pressure on Putin, because this war is not popular in Russia.

So, every day he has to wait. And if he thinks that Ukraine now has time on its side, meaning President Trump will back Ukraine, he will then be more motivated to seek a deal. But, ultimately Vladimir Putin is probably not going to want to give up any territory and Ukraine won't either, unless they get a security guarantee.

MARQUARDT: And one of the reasons, as the Biden administration sees that the Ukraine is losing territory, Cedric, is because they simply don't have the manpower to hold it. They're losing troops. They're not able to rotate out troops. Troops are deserting. We learned today that the Biden administration is pushing Ukraine to lower the recruitment age to as low as 18. It's currently 25. So, they want to lower it by seven years. They want Kyiv to do that. How critical is Ukraine's lack of troops?

LEIGHTON: Oh, it's exceptionally critical, Alex, and it's been critical really from the start of this conflict in a rather unique situation. There are Ukrainians who are in the 18 to 25 age bracket who are fighting but they are doing it more or less as volunteers. But it is definitely a difference in the way, for example, we would conduct a war like this compared to the Ukrainians, and it would make absolute sense for the Ukrainians to tap into the manpower pool of 18 to 25-year-olds in order to fight this war.

[18:10:14]

They need to replenish their ranks. And failure to do that is something that is, of course, weakening the Ukrainians right now. And it's something that is more or less a self-inflicted wound as opposed to something that's not under their control.

MARQUARDT: One of the points that a senior administration official made to a number of reporters, including myself, in a briefing call today, Evelyn, was that, you know, in the States, the age is 18. And that 18 to 24 bracket of young soldiers, they're the healthiest, they're the fittest, and that's why there's so much focus here in the United States on that. Meanwhile, you've got this minimum age of 25 in Ukraine. Why do you think the Zelenskyy government has been so reluctant to lower that recruitment age if their needs are indeed so great?

FARKAS: Well, two reasons. One, Alex, is economic. You know, they had a lot of people flee the country. Millions of people fled. And so I think it's about 7 million are still outside of Ukraine. Most of them, of course, are women, but that's part of the economy. So, they can't let all the manpower go to the front. That's a reality. And when I was there, what I found was, unfortunately, it's not just shortages at the front, but they have shortages across society and in government.

The second reason is political because, of course, President Zelenskyy has now been in office five years. Every electorate gets kind of sick of their president and would like elections. The Ukrainian people understand that they can't have elections while they're at war. But if President Trump brings peace, then there will be elections. And if President Zelenskyy wants to run, and most people assume he would, he will be an unpopular president running after having lowered the age to 18.

MARQUARDT: Just remarkable number of dynamics at play here and so much hanging in the balance for Ukraine.

Evelyn Farkas, Cedric Leighton, thank you both very much and happy Thanksgiving to you.

Just ahead, the breaking news on Sean Diddy Combs, why he was denied bail yet again.

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[18:15:00]

MARQUARDT: There is breaking news coming into The Situation Room. Sean Diddy Combs has been denied bail for a third time while awaiting trial on charges of sex trafficking and racketeering.

CNN's Kara Scannell has been following this case. So, Kara, what's the latest?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the judge just now denying Sean Diddy Combs' bail. As you said, this is for the third time. This is just in a five-page ruling, but the judge walks through his reasoning, and he comes to this ultimate conclusion, writing, the court finds that the government has shown by clear and convincing evidence that no condition or combination of conditions will reasonably assure the safety of the community.

And one of the things that the judge highlighted in his order was that he's found that there was a -- Combs had demonstrated a propensity for violence, and focusing on that video of the hotel surveillance that CNN first aired earlier this year, which shows Combs dragging and kicking his former girlfriend, judge pointing to that, which has been a central part of these bail arguments and even of this case, pointing to that to say that he's shown a propensity to violence, there's no conditions that could reasonably assure that anyone would be safe.

Also the judge pointing to these allegations that the government has raised about Combs engaging in witness tampering, the judge saying that there is serious evidence of that, including from behind bars where Combs is held for the past ten weeks after he was first indicted. The prosecutors have brought forward, you know, that Combs had been using other inmates' phone numbers in order to make calls to evade law enforcement monitoring, that he also was using three-way calling to get on the phone with one person and then have them contact someone else he was not allowed to be talking to. So, the judge saying that was all serious and that if Combs was violating the rules behind bars did not demonstrate that there was a good reason to believe he would follow them if he was released.

Now, Combs' attorneys have been relentless in trying to get him out. They said he could have stayed in a three-bedroom apartment on Manhattan's Upper East Side, that he would have 24-hour security, no phones, no internet. But that did not persuade the judge, who just found that between the allegations of violence, the allegations of witness tampering, that he was not prepared to let Combs out of jail as he is waiting trial.

That trial is set for May 5th in this case. Of course, Combs has also been hit with dozens of civil lawsuits from John and Jane Does, as well as some people suing under their real names, who have accused him of sexual abuse. Combs has denied all wrongdoing and has pleaded not guilty to the charges. We've reached out to his legal team on the ruling today, Alex, and have not heard back.

MARQUARDT: Another setback for Combs in this very dark story. Kara Scannell in New York, thanks very much.

Coming up, a live report from Northern Israel for the latest on a fragile ceasefire in the Middle East. We'll be discussing also with Congresswoman Debbie Dingell. She's standing by live. Stay with us.

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[18:20:00]

MARQUARDT: We are nearing a full day since the new ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah took effect in Lebanon, and it does appear to be holding.

Let's check in with my colleague, CNN's Jeremy Diamond in Northern Israel. So, Jeremy, what is the latest with the ceasefire?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alex, we're nearly 24 hours into this ceasefire now, and it is holding, at least for now. That doesn't mean that there haven't been violations claimed at this point by both sides. But what we are beginning to watch play out is this implementation phase over the course of the next 60 days. We've witnessed as the Lebanese military has begun to move into Southern Lebanon. They are going to play a big role in terms of monitoring any violations of this ceasefire and also coordinating with the Israeli military, which, over the course of the next two months, will begin withdrawing from Southern Lebanon.

So far, that hasn't happened. And that's what makes this so tenuous. The Israeli military is still in Southern Lebanon and we've seen Lebanese civilians also beginning to return to that area. The Israeli military now telling those civilians not to return south of the Litani River and not to approach their positions.

We have seen, however, scenes of jubilation playing out across Southern Lebanon as thousands of people have begun to make their way back to their homes. In Northern Israel, it was quite a different scene. And that's where we spent most of our day today, where Northern Israeli residents, some 60,000 of whom have been displaced, very few of them are actually returning home. And many more are very skeptical about whether or not this truce will actually hold and whether it will make Northern Israel safer.

[18:25:03]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: So, you're back in Shtula with all the dogs?

ORI ELIYAHU, SHTULA RESIDENT: Yes. I'm at home. It's not really home at the moment, but --

DIAMOND: Ori Eliyahu is one of just a handful of residents living in this Israeli community along the Lebanese border. But he's not back because he thinks it's safe.

ELIYAHU: So, basically, it's not just that this is Lebanon, Jabal Blat. You see there, the mountain?

DIAMOND: Yes.

ELIYAHU: Those houses are Hezbollah's houses. They are shooting missiles from there.

DIAMOND: The new ceasefire agreement means Hezbollah must withdraw from this area, about 25 miles north of the Israeli border. But like many others in Northern Israel, Ori doesn't trust Hezbollah, nor the Israeli government's assurances that it will prevent Hezbollah from regrouping.

On the first day of this new ceasefire, Shtula is just as much of a ghost town as when we visited over the summer. Back then, the Israeli military gave us just three minutes to see homes struck by anti-tank missiles, fearing Hezbollah could strike again.

Today, overlooking that same view, standing along that same devastated home, that threat seems further away, but for how long?

Your fear is that this agreement won't prevent this from happening again?

ELIYAHU: You are saying it's a fear. It's not fear. It's a fact. Here in the Middle East, this is how you go. This is how things work. If a terrorist can shoot you, he'll shoot you.

DIAMOND: He says his neighbors among the roughly 60,000 Israelis displaced from the North don't feel safe enough to return.

ELIYAHU: They won't do it. We are thinking about it all the time, in the (INAUDIBLE) and in the phone, anywhere, everywhere. They are not stupid.

DIAMOND: Just down the road, Ora Hatan is enjoying her first peaceful day in more than a year.

ORA HATAN, SHTULA RESIDENT: We wake up to the quiet morning after one year. It's unusual.

DIAMOND: She too is skeptical that the ceasefire will lead to a lasting peace. But she doesn't see an alternative.

HATAN: I spoke with the soldier. They tire us. They exhaust. Also what another option that we have, to arrive to Beirut?

DIAMOND: On the Lebanese side of the border, many civilians were quick to return to Southern Lebanon.

Yes, thank God. I'm happy. Of course, we're going back to our hometown, to our land.

The Lebanese military also headed south, expected to monitor Hezbollah activity as a fragile truce takes hold.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (on camera): And, Alex, is indeed holding right now, that doesn't mean it's been entirely quiet on the Israel-Lebanon border. As my team and I were there, we heard at least one burst of artillery fire, also some small arms fire in the distance as well. The Israeli military has said that it also fired warning shots at people who were approaching their positions and that they actually killed several Hezbollah militants who they said were in the area in violation of this ceasefire agreement. But, certainly, Alex, some major questions about how long this truce will hold and whether or not it can.

MARQUARDT: Yes. And the architect of this truce, Amos Hochstein, saying it is designed to be permanent and not temporary. So, here's to hoping that is true.

Jeremy Diamond in Northern Israel, thank you so much.

A key Democrat in the House of Representatives is here to weigh in on the ceasefire and more, Representative Debbie Dingell of Michigan, Congresswoman, thank you so much for being with us.

You, of course, represent a very significant Arab-American population in Michigan. How is this ceasefire in Lebanon being received, in particular, by your Lebanese constituents?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): Cautiously hopeful probably is the best word, some of what you just heard Jeremy talking to people there. I mean, there were people that their families were going back home today. I mean, there was someone that I've known for a very long time that lost 18 members of his family last Thursday night, Friday, one expecting twins. This has devastated the Lebanese community and so -- and I know this works so hard to get us to where we are. We're going to have to see what I'm hoping is it's going to lead to a permanent ceasefire in Gaza and we need the return of the hostages. We cannot forget that we still have hostages both to Israel and American hostages being held.

So, this is progress. A lot of work's been put in to get to where we are. What's going to happen? My fingers are crossed. I'm praying very hard.

MARQUARDT: The administration says that they do want to turn back towards that Gaza truce, saying now there may be an opening space for something to be accomplished there.

[18:30:07]

Prime Minister Netanyahu has shown little willingness to end the war in Gaza. Hamas, probably for its part, will not release hostages until he does agree to end the war. Do you think a Gaza ceasefire is possible before Trump takes office?

DINGELL: That's a question that we all are asking. It has been -- we're 13 months now, close to 14 months from the original horrific act. These men and women have been held hostage for a long time. I'd like to see everybody be trying to work towards getting a ceasefire and getting those hostages home.

You know, I have my own personal feelings about who he wants to see as president. I think I must say that I think everybody right now wants to see those hostages released and I would ask Netanyahu to try to help do everything he can to make that happen.

MARQUARDT: And because it would be seen as a diplomatic victory for whichever U.S. president is in office, do you think possibly this is something that Netanyahu may be holding on to for President Trump?

DINGELL: You know, I hope not. Look, I think the lives of these hostages need to be saved where we can. We need to find peace. And these diplomatic victories and who gets to chalk it up is not about how you bring peace. It's not about how you bring a ceasefire.

So, we're going to see what's going to happen and then judge what happens and when it happens. But I want peace, I want a ceasefire, and I want the house we just own. And I think a whole lot of other people feel the same way that I do.

MARQUARDT: If I could turn to politics, the Harris campaign leaders are speaking out for the first time on the election loss. I want to listen to a little bit of that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID PLOUFFE, SENIOR HARRIS CAMPAIGN ADVISER: This political environment sucked, okay? We were dealing with ferocious headwinds.

STEPHANIE CUTTER, SENIOR HARRIS CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Unless we said something like, well, I would have handled the border completely differently, we were never going to satisfy anybody.

She felt like she was part of the administration. So, why should she look back and pick out -- cherry-pick some things that she would have done differently when she was part of it? And she also -- she had tremendous loyalty to President Biden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Congresswoman Dingell, when you listen to the top leaders of the Harris campaign, do you find that enough of an explanation or do you think Democrats have more fundamental issues to, to deal with?

DINGELL: We have more fundamental issues. How were the headwinds against us? I'm not into finger-pointing at this point. I don't think it gets us any place, but I think that every single Democrat needs to do some very serious soul searching.

You know that I said in October, nobody had won the state of Michigan. I knew that it was going to be close. I try to be where the voters are. And I knew that people were worried about the grocery prices and the cost of gasoline and the economy. And as Democrats, we are not talking -- we were actually doing things that were helping them. We weren't communicating the way that we needed to.

So, I think we all have to take some responsibility for what happened, understood what happened. And we're all part of fixing that climate for the 28th presidential election and, quite frankly, the off presidential election in two years.

MARQUARDT: All right. Representative Debbie Dingell, thank you so much and happy Thanksgiving.

DINGELL: Happy Thanksgiving to you.

MARQUARDT: Just ahead, why Trump's choice to lead the National Institutes of Health is raising some concerns and causing flashbacks to COVID pandemic.

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[18:35:00]

MARQUARDT: President-elect Trump has announced a new addition to his health team on the heels of his controversial choice of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as HHS secretary.

Our Brian Todd is taking a closer look. So, Brian, what are you hearing about the man who Trump has tapped to lead the National Institutes of Health?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alex, his supporters say that Dr. Jay Bhattacharya is just the right person to shake up the National Institutes of Health, which some believe could use an overhaul. But his detractors worry that his track record on the COVID-19 pandemic is a serious red flag.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice over): President-elect Donald Trump says his choice to lead the National Institutes of Health will, quote, restore the NIH to a gold standard of medical research. But many medical experts say Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, a Stanford-trained physician and economist, could cause significant upheaval.

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I think it's controversial, but also in keeping with the almost all of the president-elect's health picks to-date.

TODD: The 56-year-old Bhattacharya became a lightning rod during the COVID pandemic for speaking out against mask and vaccine mandates.

DR. JAY BATTACHARYA, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, STANFORD UNIVERSITY: You don't bully people, you tell people go talk with your doctor, talk over the risks, and then make your own decision. That's the right way to do public health.

TODD: And he was a strong opponent of lockdowns during the height of the pandemic.

BATTACHARY: The lockdown is devastating for the under 70s. If you think about the lockdown harms, they're not just economic, they're medical, they're psychological.

TODD: Did he not have a point about the harm to mental health from the lockdowns?

REINER: Yes. You know, I think, you know, he has a point that there were harms, you know, from lockdowns. But the people running the pandemic response had to play off the theoretical risks to socialized isolation from the then very known risk of mortality from this virus.

TODD: One of Bhattacharya's most controversial moves came in October 2020, when he was one of the lead authors of an open letter called the Great Barrington Declaration, stating that COVID prevention efforts should be targeted to older, more vulnerable people, and that the virus should be allowed to spread among younger, healthier people who were at lesser risk of death to develop so-called herd immunity.

[18:40:03]

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: That's not the kind of virus you could ever eliminate by just letting everybody be naturally infected.

REINER: Estimates now are that if the virus had been allowed to run unimpeded through the population, there would have been another, you know, 1 to 2 million deaths in this country.

TODD: But Bhattacharya has credible supporters. Dr. Ashish Jha, former White House COVID response coordinator under President Biden, says Bhattacharya is, quote, fundamentally a very smart, well-qualified person.

Still, others are worried about the man tapped to be Bhattacharya's boss, heading the Department of Health and Human Services, RFK Jr.

OFFIT: Dr. Bhattacharya may well soon be working for a man, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who is a virulent anti-vaccine activist, a science denialist, someone who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS, and a conspiracy theorist. I think I would like to feel better about Dr. Bhattacharya that he would stand up to that, and I'm not so sure that's true.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): Dr. Jonathan Reiner calls the NIH one of the world's crown jewels of medical research, and he worries that with Dr. Bhattacharya and Robert Kennedy Jr. overseeing the agency, some of the most talented doctors and scientists there will want to leave. Kennedy has already talked about replacing about 600 officials at NIH with handpicked staff. Alex?

MARQUARDT: Brian Todd, thanks so much for that report.

Let's get more reaction from Dr. Michael Mina, an epidemiologist and vaccine immunologist. Dr. Mina, thank you so much for being with us.

Before COVID vaccines were available back in December of 2020, Dr. Bhattacharya argued that people at high risk should be vaccinated while those considered low risk should go back to living normal lives. And he wrote in the Great Barrington Declaration, and I'm quoting, we know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity, i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable and that this can be assisted but is not dependent upon a vaccine.

So, Doctor, first, is it even possible to reach herd immunity with COVID? And second, should we have let the disease run through the low risk population as he suggested?

DR. MICHAEL MINA, EPIDEMIOLOGIST: So, certainly, it's not likely that we're going to reach herd immunity. It never really has been in the cards for COVID-19 and SARS COV2 virus. And there's very good biological underpinnings. But at the time that he was saying that, actually, many across the whole public health ecosystem were expecting there was going to be some herd immunity at some point, whether it be from vaccines or from natural infections.

So, it wasn't a completely out-of-place remark regarding the potential existence of herd immunity at that time. Whether the Great Barrington Declaration and its call to sort of rip open the economy was the right public health move from the virus perspective, I think the consensus has been no and accurately so. One of the interesting aspects, though, about Dr. Bhattacharya is he was coming at it from a different perspective, from the perspective of what would be the outcome from a -- not from a virus and from a morbidity and mortality of the virus infection, but what will be the extended consequences of the lockdowns we had in place? And I think that those were very important to be focusing on and probably were not focused on enough at the time.

MARQUARDT: And among the other names that Trump has chosen, in addition to Bhattacharya at NIH, you also have Trump choosing RFK Jr. for HHS, Dr. Mehmet Oz to lead Medicare and Medicaid. What do you think more broadly about these picks and how they may influence health policy here in the United States?

MINA: Yes, these picks are -- they're really a reflection of a revolt against many of the approaches we did take during COVID-19. I would say that RFK Jr. is a, one of the mildest ways to put it, would be is an odd individual to put in this position to lead HHS. He has demonstrated quite predilection to support misinformation. But not unlike Dr. Bhattacharya, they both are tied in their interest in thinking more broadly about society. So, I personally don't see this all bad. I think that there is potential to see a silver lining in this and time is really going to tell where we go with that.

MARQUARDT: Certainly, this is a selection of candidates that people are watching very, very closely because of the huge potential consequences.

Dr. Michael Mina, thank you so much for joining us.

MINA: Thank you so much.

MARQUARDT: Just ahead, the very personal story of one American child and their family as the Supreme Court prepares to hear the most important case on transgender rights to-date.

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[18:49:03]

MARQUARDT: Today in Ohio, Republican Governor Mike DeWine signed a bill banning transgender students from using bathrooms that match their gender identities. Transgender rights have become a hot button issue lately especially in more conservative states, with at least 26 passing laws restricting gender affirming care for minors.

This comes as the U.S. Supreme Court is set to hear a landmark case on the subject next week. CNN's Gabe Cohen spoke with the parents of a transgender child who has already moved from one state that bans gender affirming care for minors to see how they're preparing for the new Trump administration.

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GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So what am I looking at here?

KATIE, TRANS CHILD: My pride flag. This shows to the world that I don't want to hide and pretend to be someone else. I want to be me.

SARAH HALUF, KATIE'S MOTHER: Our child should have the same rights as any other child because she's transgender doesn't make her any different.

[18:50:00]

COHEN (voice-over): Twelve-year-old Katie and her family moved across the country last year to flee state restrictions on their daughter's rights. At her parent's request, we're not showing her face and we're using an alternate name.

S. HALUF: I don't have the answer of why people hate her and have never met her. Where is Katie allowed to exist, how is she allowed to exist?

EREZ HALUF, KATIE'S FATHER: Is she allowed to exist?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: We won't be changing your children's gender with their trans gender craziness.

COHEN: Transgender rights have become one of the biggest flashpoints in this country's culture wars, marked in many cases by flat out lies and conspiracies.

TRUMP: There are some places your boy leaves to school, comes back a girl.

AD NARRATOR: Kamala supports taxpayer funded sex changes for prisoners.

COHEN: Republicans spent more than $200 million on anti-trans ads before the election.

AD NARRATOR: Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you.

E. HALUF: This is 100 percent BS.

S. HALUF: It's sowing fear. And then by doing that, you're sowing hate and all of this comes back to people like our child. We thought that by leaving Missouri and coming to Maryland, that we would be safe. And now were being threatened with anti-trans legislation on a federal level.

COHEN: At least 26 states, including Missouri, have passed restrictions on gender affirming care for minors.

S. HALUF: This was their final protest in Jefferson City. We did everything we could to fight this and there was nothing that we could do to change their minds.

We moved to Maryland to be able to access gender affirming care for Katie what that looks like is therapy services. It's clothing. It's haircuts. And at this age, it is a hormone blocker, to prevent her from going through puberty.

KATIE: This is my hormone blocker right here.

COHEN: Could that treatment be reversed at some point?

S. HALUF: Yes, absolutely. It's really a pause button. Katie gets more time to live in the body that she has now.

TRUMP: On day one, I will revoke Joe Biden's cruel policies on so- called gender affirming care.

COHEN: Trump has promised federal restrictions on transgender rights, including far stricter rules about gender affirming care especially for minors.

One trans rights organization saw a nearly 700 percent increase in calls to their crisis hotline after the election.

What would happen if your daughter didn't get that care?

S. HALUF: She would end up going through puberty and it would be traumatizing to her to see all of those things happen to her body.

COHEN: I know you get some treatment from doctors from other care. What would happen if you didn't get that?

KATIE: I would be upset and scared.

E. HALUF: In the LGBTQ community, the suicide rate is high for those who are not being supported by their caregivers.

S. HALUF: We want her to survive childhood.

COHEN: So families like Katie's are trying to prepare for what's ahead, even drafting an asylum application.

S. HALUF: We have to start thinking about a backup plan.

E. HALUF: If push comes to shove, we will need to go north. We will go to Canada.

COHEN: What would it take for your family to say we need to leave this country?

S. HALUF: The federal health care ban would likely be the moment we know that it's time to leave here.

COHEN: What does this symbolize to you?

KATIE: Freedom and rights this proves that everybody has their own rights to be themselves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUARDT: Our thanks to Gabe Cohen for that report.

If you or someone you know is facing mental health struggles, please contact the 988 crisis hotline lifeline by calling or texting 988. We'll be right back.

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MARQUARDT: Three Americans who had been detained in China for years have now been released. It is part of a prisoner swap between Washington and Beijing.

CNN's State Department reporter Jennifer Hansler is with me here now.

So, Jennifer, how did this unfold? How did this all come together and when will these Americans actually get to see their families?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: Well, Alex, this is the result of years and years of quiet diplomacy between Washington and Beijing. My understanding is basically every meeting between the Chinese and the U.S. this was brought up, be it Secretary of State Antony Blinken when he met with foreign minister Wang Yi, national security advisor Jake Sullivan, including when he was in China earlier this year. And then just in recent weeks, when President Biden met with President Xi on the sidelines of the APEC Summit in Peru. This was a concerted effort to bring these Americans home and to get Beijing on board with this prisoner swap and we saw that come together today.

But there were indications a couple of months ago that things were starting to turn, that the wheels were turning when another American who had been detained in China, David Lin, was released and this was done very, very quietly. Now we expect these Americans to land on American soil later tonight and be reunited with their families. They are heading to Texas, where we've seen a number of Americans who had been formerly detained go and participate in a program to help them re-acclimate to their normal lives.

And their families are overjoyed, obviously, at the fact that they're going to see their loved ones as the Thanksgiving holiday is coming around. Kai Li, who was one of the Americans who was freed alongside Mark Swidan and John Leung, put out a statement about an hour ago and he said in part, that they enthusiastically welcomed the news that Kai has been released from captivity after just over 3,000 days of wrongful detention. They thanked the president, national security adviser Jake Sullivan, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, for working together to ensure today's successful outcome even without the pressure of a looming election. They delivered just in time for the holidays.

And Kai also pushed for Biden in his remaining days in office to bring home the remaining Americans who are held hostage and wrongfully detained, Alex.

MARQUARDT: Such wonderful news in general and wonderful timing that they get to be home for Thanksgiving.

Jennifer Hansler, thanks so much for all of that reporting.

I'm Alex Marquardt in THE SITUATION ROOM. Thank you all for joining us tonight.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.