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Federal Government Tells Agencies Responses To Musk Email Are Voluntary; Trump Hosts France's Macron At Crucial Moment For Ukraine; Trump Taps Right Wing Podcaster Dan Bongino For FBI Deputy; Vatican: Pope Still In Critical Condition, Showing "Slight Improvement"; Grammy-Winning Singer Robert Flack Dead At Age 88. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired February 24, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Happening now, breaking news, a major reversal from the Trump administration. The federal government now says its employees don't need to respond to that email from Elon Musk asking them to justify their existence or face termination.

Also breaking, President Trump hosts French President Emmanuel Macron over at the White House at a very sensitive moment for negotiations over Ukraine. Did the two leaders make any progress toward peace on today's third anniversary of Russia's bloody invasion?

Plus, the president installs another loyalist over at the top of the FBI. We're taking a closer look at Dan Bongino, the right wing podcast host who will serve as deputy director alongside FBI Chief Kash Patel.

Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in The Situation Room.

First to the breaking news tonight, the frenzy inside the federal government right now as the Trump administration backtracks on a threat to fire workers who don't respond to an emailed ultimatum from Elon Musk.

CNN's Rene Marsh is joining us now. She's got all the latest details. Tell our viewers, Rene, what you're learning.

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we'll just about six hours until that deadline to respond to that email, and the confusion among the federal workforce remains high. Now, the Office of Personnel Management formally notified agencies this afternoon that that so- called what did you do last week email sent over the weekend is voluntary and that the failure to respond will not result in resignation.

Now, that guidance runs counter to what Elon Musk said over the weekend. Musk posted on X, and I'm quoting, failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. It also runs counter to what the president said today. President Trump saying that anyone who doesn't answer is semi-fired or fired, well, all of this is just again, really difficult for many of these employees to figure out who to listen to. One employee at the Department of Veterans Affairs telling me today, and I'm quoting, no one knows who's in charge and who to listen to.

Now, that what did you do last week email appeared to also reveal a rift between Trump-appointed agency heads and Elon Musk. Musk is unelected, not Senate confirmed to run any government agency and was essentially telling employees throughout the federal government to report outside the chain of command to him.

Now, some seven agencies, including the Department of Defense, the State Department and the FBI told employees not to comply with this request for information at the time that federal employees received it. But today, President Trump downplaying any rift between his cabinet secretaries and the power that Elon Musk is wheeling in his capacity outside of the government to shrink the federal government's workforce, Wolf.

But, again, lots of questions, lots of confusion, despite OPM now saying that this is voluntary, and, of course, the labor unions saying that none of this was legal to begin with.

BLITZER: Rene Marsh reporting for us, Rene, thank you very much.

For more on the breaking news, I want to bring in CNN's Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny. He's joining us from the White House. Jeff, what are you hearing from inside the Trump administration?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there is no question, this is one of the first signs of certainly some disagreement among some cabinet secretaries and others at what Elon Musk is doing with their agencies. We saw example after example, as Rene was just saying there, where agencies were instructing their workers to not follow along.

But as for the president, he was asked today in the Oval Office what he thinks of all of this. He called it genius.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: You know why he wanted that, by the way? I thought it was great. Because we have people that don't show up to work, and nobody even knows if they work for the government. So, by asking the question, tell us what you did this week, what he's doing is saying, are you actually working?

[18:05:00]

There's a lot of genius in sending it. We're trying to find out if people are working.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Now I'm told the White House did have a heads-up Saturday afternoon before this email was sent out across the federal workforce but only by a couple hours or so, Wolf.

So, it does beg the question, is Elon Musk acting at the direction of the president or is the president responding to things that Elon Musk is doing? There's no doubt Republican senators on Capitol Hill were expressing some concern about this, particularly because of those national security type agencies and employees who are being asked to this. But the bottom line is some cabinet secretaries, as they are filling up the cabinet, want to have their own requests and orders for their workers.

The first cabinet meeting actually will be on Wednesday, Wolf. I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up.

BLITZER: Yes, a dramatic flip flop on the part of the Trump administration, pretty embarrassing indeed. Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much.

Our legal and political experts are joining us right now. Mandela Barnes, let me start with you. What do you make about this rather abrupt about-face from the Office of Personnel Management that runs counter to the threat of termination from Elon Musk?

MANDELA BARNES, SENIOR FELLOW, PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY: I mean, it's been an incredibly haphazard experience. Anyway, I've had friends who personally lost their job. So, this is personal many ways. But also just think about the thousands of other people across this country who want nothing more than to serve their country by working for the federal government and putting in that public service. And it is a shame how people are being treated. I think we're going to lose the human aspect of it all, as we have this conversation, as we look at the assertivies.

And I'll tell you, if they were really serious about it, they would have made J.D. Vance actually reply or the email telling us what he's done because nobody knows what he's up to. In fact, it feels like his position has already been terminated as vice president.

But in order for us to truly, you know, instill the type of respect for institutions that we should have, the president needs to take this more seriously instead of having a man child. We have the world's most socially insecure person in control of our Social Security numbers, and we have an election coming up in Wisconsin. This is one of the things that keeps coming up. People are concerned about Elon Musk. They didn't elect him and they don't like the way that he is wielding so much power and influence over our daily lives.

BLITZER: And you're the former lieutenant governor of Wisconsin.

Lauren Tomlinson, let me get your thoughts. As you know, we've recently seen pushback to must influence from voters at several GOP town halls across the country. Do you think that played a factor in this reversal today from the Trump administration?

LAUREN TOMLINSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: No, I think the greatest influence that happened with this reversal was that this was sent so broadly and that there were so many national security heads that pushed back on the fact that their workers did not need to justify the type of work that they were doing. And there was also other concerns about exposure of sources and methods and other things. So, I mean, this indiscriminate email that went out was kind of poorly thought out in that regard, and so they had to walk it back.

Now, I will say though, to your other point, there's been recent polling, Harvard Harris being the most recent, that Americans very broadly support DOGE's efforts to find waste and abuse within the federal government, that there is almost 80 percent of American support reducing the size of government, reducing our spending.

And so I do think that the White House knows that it is a winner here to continue to focus on reducing the size of our federal government, to reduce our spending, to reduce our debt and get that under control. It's just the manner in which that Elon Musk stepped out this week, I think, had to be walked back because it was irresponsible.

BLITZER: Elie Honig is with us as well, our legal analyst. You were a federal employee for several years, Elie, as all of us know. How would you respond to an email like this and the confusion, lots of confusion, that clearly followed?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that's exactly what I would have felt, Wolf, confusion. When I was at DOJ, if I had gotten an email like this, my first thought would have been, who the heck is OPM, the Office of Personnel Management, basically, the H.R. managers for the government, to make a substantive demand of me to fill them in? That is actually the basis of the lawsuit that's been filed to try to block this.

My next thought would have been, I'm not putting information about a sensitive criminal investigation that I may have opened last week in an email to the Office of Personnel Management. I would report up the chain to DOJ but not to OPM. And, again, that's another argument that's made in the lawsuit. So, those are two things that I think would jump out of me.

The last one would be even more confusion because the OPM email says, tell us five things you've done, but it doesn't say anything about firing or resignation. Then Elon Musk tweets, if you don't respond, we'll take that as a resignation. And then when the president is asked, he says, well, it will be a semi-firing. That was his quote, a semi, you'll be semi-fired if you don't respond. So, I would be utterly confused as to who rules as between OPM, Elon Musk, Donald Trump. It puts these federal employees in an impossible situation.

BLITZER: Mandela, I want you and our viewers to listen to House Speaker Johnson, what he said earlier about this email.

[18:10:05]

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): In the private sector, where most of us come from, it is not unusual for you to have to fill out weekly reports routinely, routine reports on what you're accomplishing, what you're doing. I don't think it's a crazy concept, but Elon is going to do what Elon does and DOGE. We're going to codify a lot of these changes so we can make them permanent. But asking people to justify their work, I think, is a reasonable step.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He says, asking people to justify their work is a reasonable step. Mandela, what do you think?

BARNES: Look, this isn't the private sector. We're talking about federal employees who are tasked with, in many instances, the daily lives of Americans, whether they're veterans, people with disabilities, processing all sorts of requests, day in and day out, our whole economy.

And for them to think that it could be as simple is putting in an email of five things just shows that they are not equipped for the positions that they're in, Speaker Johnson included, a person who's hanging on by a thread anyway with this speakership, who's going to say whatever it takes to appease the president. This is a person with no concept of reality or any political or political stability, his only attachment to the role of speakers because of his allegiance to President Donald Trump.

So, his opinion is no involved in this conversation, but we have to get back to understanding that so many folks have taken sacrifices, people who could have been paid three times as much as they make in the private sector but decide to commit themselves to public service to make this country better. And these are folks whose political leanings are all over the place, and that's something that should be respected. Service should be respected once again, not the sort of selfish politics that we see from Donald Trump.

BLITZER: Lauren, we have a map and I want to put it up showing the number of federal workers in states that President Trump won. It's about 980,000 employees in these red states. Could this be an opportunity for Democrats to reach voters in those red states?

TOMLINSON: Possibly. But I want you to understand that most Americans, when they hear this news, they look at this and say, I have to justify my job to my employer on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis, on a quarterly basis. I am subject to performance reviews. I have to go in and I am subject to the whims of the economy, downsizing, the shifting of priorities. And so when they hear these things that the federal workforce is being asked to justify what they do, it is something that instinctively they say, oh, this is common sense, I have to do this at work as well.

So, I think the Democrats risk the -- they really risk losing the message here because it's going to be hard, I think, to message against the fact that they are looking for efficiencies and they are looking to do -- ask the federal workforce to do what every other Americans have to do on a daily basis.

BLITZER: Good point. Everyone, thank you very, very much.

Just ahead, multiple headlines tonight around Russia's war in Ukraine. President Trump hosting a key European ally over at the White House as the war now enters its fourth year as the U.S. sides today with Moscow in a key vote at the United Nations. We'll discuss all of this and more with a key member of the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. Congressman Jason Crow is standing by live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

BLITZER: More breaking news we're following, President Trump just wrapped up a very important meeting with the French president, Emmanuel Macron, over at the White House. At the top of the agenda, negotiations over Ukraine. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I've spoken to President Putin and my people are dealing with him constantly and his people in particular, and they want to do something. I mean, that's what I do. I do deals. My whole life is deals. That's all I know is deals. And I know when somebody wants to make it, and when somebody doesn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Today's meeting comes as the conflict in Ukraine reaches its third anniversary.

CNN's Matthew Chance has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Three years into this bloodshed and the front lines remain hellish and brutal. There may be talk of peace. But every day in the war zone, the ultimate sacrifice is being paid.

Across Russia, cemeteries are now burgeoning with fresh graves. The grim reality of the Ukrainian meat grinder can no longer be hidden or denied.

This monument was put up so people would know there is a war going on, says Victor, the head of a local veterans' organization. It's not just some kind of operation, he says. People are dying.

It wasn't meant to be this way.

These are Russian forces. You can tell they're Russian. I've spoken to them already.

Back in 2022, as the full scale invasion began, CNN encountered Russian troops sent on what became a suicide mission to capture the Ukrainian capital.

The Kremlin still calls its special military operation was meant to be over in a few days.

Instead, Russian troops were forced to withdraw, leaving behind them a trail of devastation. And in places like Bucha, on the outskirts of Kyiv, allegations of human rights abuses too, all denied by the Kremlin.

Now, President Putin is still pinning medals on veterans before toasting their fallen comrades at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

[18:20:00]

How many unknown soldiers there have been, no one even knows, Putin says. But thanks to their efforts, courage and extreme hard work at the front, we have Russia today, he adds.

And after three years of fighting, Russia also has the Ukrainian territories it's captured and occupied, like the ruins of Pisky and countless others, where former residents are now returning to their destroyed homes and trying to claim compensation from the Russian authorities now in charge.

I don't think there'll ever be a peace agreement, Yekaterina (ph) says. How can they agree on who will fix all of this, she asks.

Three years on and there are doubts buildings or lives can ever be rebuilt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (on camera): Wolf, tonight not exactly the kind of anniversary that you might have expected even a month ago before President Trump was inaugurated because the Kremlin leader, Vladimir Putin, has been praising Donald Trump, President Trump, this evening, calling him straightforward and without any particular embarrassment and saying that he's free from the shackles that would prevent him from resolving the conflict.

There's also sort of glee amongst Russian officials at the idea that President Trump mentioned potential business deals that were being talked about with Russia from the United States, particularly in a country which has been so heavily damaged by the years of sanctions that have been posed upon it, particularly over its full scale invasion of Ukraine.

So, in short, from the Russian perspective tonight, things with the United States are certainly looking up.

BLITZER: Matthew Chance reporting from Moscow for us. Matthew, thank you very much.

Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Jason Crow, he serves on both the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

President Trump, as you know, met with the French President Macron today on this, the three-year anniversary of the start of this brutal war during which Trump claimed Russia wants to end its invasion of Ukraine. Do you think Putin is actually interested in ending this war on terms that Ukraine could accept?

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Wolf, Vladimir Putin is a monster. This is a man whose role model is Joseph Stalin, the communist leader, who's responsible for the deaths of millions of people around the world. This is a man who's responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in the last three years through his illegal invasion of Ukraine, who has kidnapped tens of thousands of Ukrainian children and put them into reeducation brainwashing camps.

This is a man who understands only power, a man who spent the last couple of decades supporting terrorist organizations, supporting cyber attacks against America, looks for every opportunity he can to undermine America and attack Americans. And this is the man who Donald Trump cozies up to and refuses to condemn, and every American should be appalled by it.

BLITZER: President Trump was asked today about calling President Zelenskyy a dictator in recent days. Let me play that clip for you and then we'll discuss. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: You called Zelenskyy a dictator. Would you use the same words regarding Putin?

TRUMP: I don't use those words lightly. I think that we're going to see how it all works out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What do you make of that response, Congressman?

CROW: Well, it's horrible. It's horrible. And, you know, just the language is horrible. It's making America a laughing stock. It's actually straining and pulling apart our alliances and our partner networks that we rely on to keep us safe. You know, but more than that Americans should be really, really mad about this, that if somebody is sitting in the White House calling a partner an ally of ours malignant things while cozying up to dictators who are literally trying to attack Americans and undermine American democracy, people around the country need to stand up and go to their members of Congress, go to their elected officials, show up, tell them they're not going to put up with it. They're ready to push back and let themselves be heard.

BLITZER: President Zelenskyy, Congressman, says he hopes the U.S. will continue to support Ukraine, despite Trump publicly slamming him. Are you confident that that support will continue?

CROW: Well, that support will only continue if the American people demand that it continues, right? For less than 4 percent of our annual defense budget, we have helped Ukraine, a country that's building a democracy, that wants to move west, that wants to partner economically with the United States, that is building one of the best militaries in the world, that wants to partner with us, work with us, that wants to develop economic ties, a young country, an innovative country, we are supporting that country and that is in our interest to do so, but only if Americans demand it, only if there is political will.

[18:25:03] That's why people need to speak up, they need to reach out to their members of Congress, and they need to demand that we support Ukraine because that is what will keep America safe.

BLITZER: Before I let you go, Congressman, I want to get your thoughts on a very sensitive domestic political issue that's exploding right now. As you probably know by now, the Office of Personnel Management is now telling agencies that responses to the what did you do last week email from Elon Musk are voluntary. That comes despite Elon Musk saying earlier in the day that failing to respond would be taken as a resignation. What are you hearing about this?

CROW: Well, this is really disturbing stuff, that the president has put Elon Musk into a position of authority to do damage to our government, do damage to private, sensitive information of Americans. And in a 24-hour period, Elon Musk sent out 220 tweets. He operated companies that are doing business with the United States a government with defense contractors, which, by the way, he's leaving alone to pad his own pockets. He engaged in two public disputes with the mothers of two of his children. And all the while he's sending out tweets mandating that our government employees and our civil servant does things while courts are trying to stop that while people within the administration are trying to stop that. Oh, and here's the kicker, Wolf. The White House, while he's doing that, are going to the courts and saying that Elon Musk has no authority, that he's simply a presidential adviser.

So, what is going on? Nobody knows what's going on. It's very dangerous stuff. Americans need to step up and say enough is enough.

BLITZER: Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, thank you so much for joining us.

CROW: Thank you.

BLITZER: And coming up, a closer look at the Secret Service agent turned right wing podcaster who's being named to the number two position at the FBI.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

BLITZER: President Trump just tapped a very unconventional choice for a key post over at the FBI. Dan Bongino, the former Secret Service agent turned right wing media personality, will serve as Deputy Director.

Brian Todd has more on the story for us. Brian, Bongino will wield significant power in his new job.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An enormous amount of power, Wolf. He will be running the Bureau's day to day operations. But Bongino's lack of experience at the FBI and his media background have raised concern among former agents.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice over): President Trump now has two of his most loyal MAGA champions heading the FBI, Kash Patel as director, and now 50-year-old Dan Bongino, a former Secret Service agent turned right wing podcaster, as deputy director.

DAN BONGINO, NEWLY NAMED FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: I got a call from the president and it couldn't have been nicer. Folks, it's a lot to walk away from.

TODD: And a lot to walk into, according to former FBI officials who spoke to CNN, who believe the hiring of Bongino will be controversial.

STEVE MOORE, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: And putting somebody in who's never been an FBI agent is potentially troublesome. I have no problems with Dan Bongino's intelligence or his -- the fact that he had served with the Secret Service as a bonus, but this is going way out of the line of what the FBI has done in the past.

TODD: That's partly because Bongino has spent considerable time on the air slamming the FBI for its investigations of Donald Trump.

BONGINO: Folks, the FBI is lost. It's broken, irredeemably corrupt at this point.

TODD: Bongino, who served as a New York City police officer in the 1990s, later joined the Secret Service and served on President Barack Obama's protective detail. I interviewed Bongino when he left the Secret Service in 2011 to run for the Senate as a Republican from Maryland, asking him about his newly revealed political loyalty on the opposite side from the president he'd guarded with his life.

BONGINO: I want to say personally that I have enormous respect for him, but I just disagree with the ideology. It's a simple ideological play. That's it. The country's going on the wrong path.

TODD: Since that failed bid for the Senate, Bongino's media profile has skyrocketed, becoming a star and a regular on Fox News, hosting his own hugely popular radio shows and podcasts.

While he did scold the January 6th rioters, he's also supported President Trump's false claims that the 2020 election was stolen.

BONGINO: We had an election with unbelievably suspect behavior.

TODD: All the while earning admiration from President Trump.

TRUMP: Bongino, how about Dan Bongino?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Bongino's been promoting far right views on his podcast, promising retribution, saying that Trump is going to get revenge against his enemies, and saying that Trump should just ignore court decisions that he doesn't like.

TODD: Now, as the hands-on official handling the bureau's daily operations, Bongino has a unique challenge. MOORE: The one thing what you do not want to do, day one, is lose the loyalty of the FBI. When they see their own management appearing to go off the rail, you lost them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): As for how the FBI's rank and file feels about Dan Bongino, according to a mass email obtained by CNN that was sent to its members just before Donald Trump posted that Bongino had been selected as deputy director, the FBI Agents Association, representing thousands of agents, said it had been told by Kash Patel that the new deputy director would come from within the ranks of the FBI. Contacted by CNN today, the Agents Association declined to comment on the appointment of Bongino, Wolf?

BLITZER: All right. Brian Todd reporting for us, thanks, Brian, very much.

Joining us now, the former FBI deputy director, Andrew McCabe. Andrew, thanks so much for coming in.

[18:35:01]

You speak with authority when it comes to the number two position in the FBI. You were the deputy director.

Let's talk a little bit about Dan Bongino. You've said that putting him in this critically important number two role at the FBI, in your word, is dangerous. Tell us why.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT: Well, Wolf, the FBI deputy director has an incredibly hard job, and as you've said, I know this personally. They are ultimately responsible for all of the FBI's intelligence collection and investigative activity. You are the operational manager, the chief operating officer for the FBI. And it is absolutely imperative that when bad things happen, you are prepared with a career's worth of experience and knowledge, the legal understanding to be able to make decisions quickly to avoid further crisis. Learning the organization from day one, knowing nothing about it is a luxury that FBI deputy directors don't have, which is why every one of the deputy directors up until this point, for 117 years, have been experienced FBI agents.

BLITZER: They've had experience in the FBI. He has not experience in the FBI.

Bongino is a right wing conspiracy theorist, as you well know. He's an election denier. I want to get your reaction to something Bongino recently said on his podcast. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: Folks, my recommendation is Donald Trump should ignore this. This judge is obviously not acting constitutionally at all. It should be ignored. Demand it resuming all -- but you can't order the executive to spend -- I mean, you've effectively usurped the power of the executive.

Who's going to arrest them? The Marshals? You guys know who the U.S. Marshals work for? Department of Justice. That is under the, oh, yes, executive branch. Donald Trump's going to order his own arrest? This is ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: How disturbing is this sort of thinking from someone who will hold one of the most senior, one of the most important law enforcement positions in the U.S. government?

MCCABE: As the most senior FBI agent in the entire organization, the person who is personally responsible for overseeing the work of 12,000 agents, to be on television or on the radio, on a podcast, advocating to ignore the lawful court order of a federal judge is a terrible mistake, and it sends an awful message to those law enforcement officers who are out there on the street every day trying to uphold the law, follow the law, and follow the orders of federal court judges. It's a terrible example, and it's one that's going to come back to haunt him.

BLITZER: The new FBI director, Kash Patel, as you probably know, had told allies that Robert Kissane, the acting deputy director of the FBI, was the likely pick to keep the job. So, what do you think happened?

MCCABE: Well, we've heard, Wolf, from a number of sources inside the organization that the pushback that Kissane and the acting director, Driscoll, engaged in with acting Deputy Attorney General Bove is what cost them their jobs. And that to me is another particularly bad sign. Because what it tells us is that any sort of independence, any sort of pushback, what is perceived to be pushback against blind loyalty to the president and to his orders that are coming through DOJ is something that can now cost you your job in the Federal Bureau of Investigation like never before.

BLITZER: Let's see what happens. Thanks very much, Andrew McCabe, for joining us, and thanks for your service over the years at the FBI.

MCCABE: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Just ahead, a big shift over at the United Nations today. The United States, the Trump administration, get this, siding with countries like Russia and North Korea in a U.N. General Assembly vote. A former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice, is standing by live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

BLITZER: More now on the breaking news, the war in Ukraine reaches a terrible milestone, three years since the brutal Russian invasion.

Let's get reaction from Susan Rice. She served as President Obama's national security adviser and as the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. Ambassador, thanks so much for joining us.

On this third anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, President Trump is now suggesting the war could end within weeks, his words. How realistic is that?

SUSAN RICE, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: I don't think it's very realistic particularly if it is not a negotiated settlement that involves Ukraine, whose fate is at stake at the negotiating table alongside our European partners. And thus far, Donald Trump seems to be ruling that out.

But the bigger picture here is that there isn't going to be a settlement of this war that seems likely to preserve Ukraine's sovereignty. It's going to require Ukraine, it sounds like, to give up large chunks of its territory, having been invaded by a hostile aggressor, Russia. There are no security guarantees on the horizon for Ukraine, though President Macron today said repeatedly how essential that is. And meanwhile we're extorting Ukraine out of billions and billions of dollars of its natural resources as some sort of payback for U.S. and western support. It's absolutely outrageous.

We're casting our lot with Russia and the access of authoritarians, it includes China and Iran and North Korea, and we are doing everything we can inexplicably to undermine our alliances, which are the core element in both Europe and in Asia that have kept the United States strong and so formidable on the world stage.

BLITZER: In effect, the U.S. is essentially, it seems to be, more in line with Putin and Russia than with Ukraine. Do you believe that?

[18:45:00]

RICE: Yes. I mean, there's no question about it. You mentioned in your intro, Wolf, what happened today at the United Nations. If you had told me when I was U.N. ambassador that I would get instructions from the State Department and the White House to throw our European allies under the bus and side with Russia, North Korea and Belarus -- I would have fallen out of my chair and thought that our instructions had been hacked by the Russians.

It's absolutely ridiculous. There is nothing that we could give Russia that it wants more than to erode and divide us from our allies in Europe and Asia, leave the United States in the camp of the authoritarians alongside Iran, which, as you'll recall, has provided drones and all kinds of sophisticated weapons to Russia as its prosecuted its war against Ukraine. And with North Korea, who has put troops on the ground to fight Ukraine. I mean, it's an extraordinary reversal that is going to leave the United States isolated and far, far less secure.

And in partnership with dictators and, and violent, destructive, autocrats on the lines of Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping.

BLITZER: You mentioned, Ambassador, that President Macron today stressed the need for Ukraine to have security guarantees in any agreement that would end the war. How might that actually work? RICE: Well, the most obvious one, and the one that Ukraine has long

sought and that the alliance has -- has foreshadowed, was supposed to be on the horizon, was ultimately membership of NATO. If Ukraine were part of NATO at the end of this conflict, Russia would not dare, uh, to repeat an invasion. Short of that, there may be other ways for the United States and our European allies and Canada, to provide guaranteed sustained military support and perhaps peacekeeping forces on the ground, to ensure that Russia doesn't try to do this again.

But absent sort of those kinds of security guarantees, we are simply delaying, the likely resumed Russian invasion of Ukraine. Remember, it's done it twice already in 2014, and then again in 2022, and if, you know, this is ended in a ceasefire and Russia has the opportunity to regroup and rebuild its military, there's nothing without security guarantees that will protect Ukraine from suffering this.

Again --

BLITZER: If a peace deal. Ambassador can't be reached. Can Ukraine win this war without continued, very robust U.S. military aid?

RICE: Ukraine needs continued economic and military support from the United States and from our other NATO partners and allies around the world, which have sustained it over the course of the last several years. Ukraine has done an extraordinary job of building its own capacity and holding back the worst of the Russian advance. You know, Europe has provided 60 percent, 60 percent of the resources that have gone to Ukraine, and collective effort. But in the absence of the United States and continued and sustained European support alongside the United States, Ukraine will not be in a position for long. I fear to -- to sustain its efforts.

And what we want is obviously ultimately a negotiated solution. But with Ukraine at the table able to negotiate from a position of strength.

BLITZER: Yeah. Let's see if that happens. Ambassador Susan Rice, thanks so much for joining us.

RICE: Good to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: And coming up, an update on the condition of Pope Francis, who's now been in the hospital for more than a week.

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[18:53:09]

BLITZER: We just got an update on the health of Pope Francis. The Vatican now says the 88-year-old pontiff is showing slight improvement, although he remains hospitalized in critical condition.

CNN's Christopher Lamb has the latest from Rome -- Christopher.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, people are leaving a prayer service that has taken place behind me in St. Peter's Square, led by Cardinal Pietro Parolin, a top Vatican official. A prayer service for Pope Francis to pray for his recovery. This prayer service had a lot of poignancy and echoes of a 2005 prayer service for Pope John Paul II, when he was sick.

We did hear this evening about a slight improvement in Pope Francis's condition. Its still critical, but we were told that there has been some improvement, that the kidney concern, the concern of kidney failure, is no longer a worry. But the pope is still on oxygen at a slightly lower level, and he was also able to resume some work activities and to call the Catholic Parish in Gaza.

It remains a concerning picture for the pope, a complex one, too. Francis has been in hospital now since Friday, February the 14th. We will be expecting further updates from the Vatican tomorrow, Tuesday -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Christopher Lamb in Rome for us. Thank you very, very much.

Coming up, a final goodbye to one of the most well-known voices in music.

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[18:59:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(ROBERTA FLACK SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: An iconic song and a singular voice.

Grammy Award-winning soul singer Roberta Flack has died. Flack is best known for her interpretation of romantic ballads like the one we just heard, "Killing Me Softly", with his song. A smash hit back in the early 1970s.

She also leaves a legacy of social activism. Roberta Flack died today at her home following several years of health challenges. She was 88 years old. May she rest in peace and may her memory be a blessing.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. This important programming note, starting next Monday, THE SITUATION ROOM is expanding to two hours and moving to mornings. Join me in my colleague and good friend Pamela Brown every weekday from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon Eastern. We'll continue covering important stories from around the world and across the country.

Thanks very much for watching.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.