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White House Denies Defying Judge's Order To Stop Deportation Flights; Communities Pick Up Pieces After Storms Kill At Least 39 People; Rep. Seth Moulton (D-MA), Is Interviewed About Some Senate Dems Losing Faith In Schumer After Funding Concession. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired March 17, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You're in The Situation Room.

And we begin this hour with a showdown between the federal courts and the Trump administration over a centuries-old law being used now to speed up the President's immigration crackdown. The White House says hundreds of alleged gang members were expelled over the weekend to El Salvador, many of them under the Alien Enemies Act of 1798. That, despite a court order stopping these deportations.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Also deported over the weekend, a Rhode Island doctor and assistant professor at Brown University Medical School. She was sent to Lebanon despite a judge's order blocking her immediate removal.

And we have just learned that a hearing this morning has been canceled while the court gathers more information. So joining us now are CNN's Priscilla Alvarez and CNN chief national affairs correspondent, Jeff Zeleny. Jeff, I want to go to you first. What is the White House saying about this court order pausing deportations?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, we are really seeing both sides of the immigration crackdown from the White House with just these two cases. But let's start with this 18th century law. It has only been used three times during war. That was during the War of 1812 and then during both World Wars. But this is something the White House is standing behind saying it can indeed use this as a reasoning to deport these Venezuelans. But President Trump, as he was flying back to Washington late last night, justified his reasoning like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That was a bad group of, as I say, comrades. They invaded our country. So this isn't -- in that sense, this is war. In many respects, it's more dangerous than war because, you know, in war they have uniforms. You know who you're shooting at. You know who you're going after. These are people that came out, they're walking on the streets. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So the President there is saying this is war, but certainly it's not the definition of war that has been used in this 1798 law ever before. So that will be front and center when this is challenged in court. And this is one of the many things that could end up ultimately before the Supreme Court. But the White House is saying that a single judge cannot essentially stand in the way of the White House's immigration efforts. But there is no doubt. Add this to the long and growing list of legal cases because of the administration's immigration plan. Pamela and Wolf?

BROWN: All right. And to go to you on this, Priscilla, you know, the White House is basically deciding whether something is lawful or not. That -- that is not something that -- that the White House is supposed to be doing. But, you know, on this, you -- you have to ask the question about whether it did just violate a judge's order. The White House is focusing on this idea of the written order versus verbal. Tell us about the -- the significance of that.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was all rapidly moving over the course of the weekend. They published the proclamation that invoked the Alien Enemies Act on Saturday. We had also remarkably seen the American Civil Liberties Union, along with other groups, sue the administration before this was even published.

So it was clear over the course of last week that they were moving toward the invocation of this measure and that they were going to move very quickly as soon as it was done. And so on Saturday, we were seeing the lawsuit before we even saw this published, which -- which gives you a sense of how quickly this was all moving, followed by these hearings that occurred over the course of Saturday.

Now, there was a hearing, followed by a break, followed by another hearing because the judge was trying to get clarity from the Justice Department in terms of what exactly was happening on the ground. Were there planes in the air? Had people already been deported underneath this measure? And so now it's trying to parse through the nuances of what exactly happened and when, because we know there were flights. We have seen the flights arrive in El Salvador.

And it's not only that Pamela and Wolf, but who exactly was on these flights? We know that they are describing them as alleged gang members of Tren de Aragua. What we don't know yet is the names and the individual cases. This is also very similar to what happened with Guantanamo Bay. It was only over the course of court filings that we actually learned a little bit more about who these people were.

Now, again, as Jeff was mentioning, this is a very rarely used measure. It was used over the course of war. The last time was in World War II during the Japanese internment. So this is an extraordinary move by the administration to target this gang that they have talked about repeatedly and using one of their key allies in the region, El Salvador. They have been banking on them from the very get go. And this is a deal that they have made and that they are moving on. So certainly we'll be watching more court proceedings today. We expect another hearing at 4:00 p.m. to get even more details about what happened and when over the last 72 hours.

BLITZER: President Franklin Roosevelt used this law to round up Japanese-Americans during World War II and send them to camps.

ALVAREZ: Correct. That's exactly right. Which tells you how extraordinary it is for the administration to use it and to describe these gang members, Tren de Aragua, as the invasion into the United States. If you read through the proclamation, the President is essentially making the case, as he did there on Air Force One, that this counts as an invasion, that this is essentially war. So, again, these are the types of legal nuances that the court is going to have to parse through.

[11:05:11]

BLITZER: On another sensitive issue right now, Priscilla, the hearing for this Brown University professor deported to Lebanon has now been canceled. What more can you tell us about this case?

ALVAREZ: Well, it's been canceled at the request of her attorneys. Again, this is another case where the Customs and Border Protection officials said that they had not received the court order that she not be deported soon enough. So she did end up being deported. She was here on an H-1B visa working for Brown Medicine.

Now, this is actually a visa that the President has touted many times before. We do not know exactly why she was deported. We know, of course, that they have pushed the legal limits, they being the administration, when it comes to the revoking of visas. We saw that over the course of last week with those involved in protests.

We're still waiting to hear more about what was the basis of this deportation. But the -- the bottom line here is that the administration is using these legal tools, pushing them all the way to the limit, and it's up to the courts to decide how this proceeds.

BLITZER: And she -- she was a -- a professor, and she's a doctor, a kidney specialist at Brown University.

ALVAREZ: That's exactly right. And we're still learning more about whether -- whether her visa had expired. It doesn't appear to be the case, or why it was revoked.

BLITZER: Yes. All right, we'll stay on top of this story as well.

BROWN: All right, Priscilla Alvarez, thanks so much.

BLITZER: And this morning, heartbreak and devastation after a deadly storm system wreaked havoc from Oklahoma to Georgia over the weekend. At least 39 people are dead after wildfires, dust storms, and a deadly wave of tornadoes leveled communities across the Midwest and South. BROWN: And that includes Alpine, Alabama. It sustained heavy damage, including a school bus thrown into a school gym. And now people in the community are left to just pick up the pieces. Pastor Charles Kelly's church in Alpine service -- survived the storm. He joins us. Pastor, I -- I'm so glad that -- that your church survived the storm. I know so many homes and other buildings did not. How are the people in your community doing there this morning?

CHARLES KELLY, HEAD PASTOR, WINTERBORO COMMUNITY CHURCH: You know, everybody's doing quite well. Everyone -- everyone is thankful, and we've lost a lot of trees, and there was some structural damage, obviously, at the school right across the street from the church. And a lot of homes were affected a little bit, but in the grand scheme of things, a lot of trees down, everything. We had one loss of life in the community. But for the most part, we -- we recognize that God's hand was on us and protected us here.

BLITZER: Pastor, walk us through what it was like during the storm.

KELLY: Well, it -- it was coming in waves. We were, obviously, everybody with the technology we have today is watching the weather radar and watching local television and getting reports. And -- and it was kind of coming in waves. I thought it had died down. And my wife said, oh, hey, here comes another one. And it came up through here. And it was almost impossible to get into the location where I'm standing right now that night because of the debris in the road.

The school kind of ended up in the road. And so crews were up here trying to clean that up and -- and take all -- take care of all the immediate needs. But it was -- it's pretty rough. Several people in the community said it's just like what you -- what you hear about. It sounds like a freight train coming down the road. So there's a lot of noise and just a lot of debris and a lot of -- a lot of people affected.

But in the grand scheme of things, we've got crews out right now from other churches, Church of the Highlands, disaster relief teams are here in force. We're a very small church, and we've got limited resources in our community. But it's just thanks to people being good like people are. They're joining in and serving and really getting an opportunity to show the love of Christ in this.

BROWN: Yes, you're really seeing the best of people in times of need like this. What is the biggest immediate need right now in your community?

KELLY: You know, everyone, it's truly amazing because in places like Winterboro, Alabama, where people are so good, everybody's helping everyone. And we -- we were going to some jobs to try to help some single mom and some others, and other people beat us there. We've got some people with some health issues in the community, some elderly people. And we were going to think we were doing this, and other people were already there, beat us to it.

And so people were handing out food to those serving and running chainsaws. And so the most immediate need is just, number one, is prayer. We recognize that -- that God's hand is on us, so just lifting the community up. And but after that, it's just going to be a long road with getting some home repairs done and some continued cleanup. I don't -- you kind of never know where to start and how it's going to get cleaned up from here, but we know that -- that God's going to get the glory ultimately.

And there's so many across the country, on the East Coast, on the West Coast, that have suffered way worse than -- than we have. We're just -- we're just thankful, and -- and we appreciate you all sharing our story and coming to Winterboro, Alabama.

BLITZER: Pastor Charles Kelly, thanks so much for joining us, and good luck to all the folks there.

[11:10:00]

KELLY: Thank you. Thank you very much.

BROWN: And another important story that we're following this morning, the Trump administration's Department of Government Efficiency is looking to eliminate 20 percent of the IRS workforce by mid-May, and that's after it already cut thousands of workers and auditors at the tax agencies.

Sources inside the IRS tell CNN that DOGE's next priority appears to be accessing its vast data system, so all of this is happening during the height of tax season, obviously. Our Rene Marsh has been reporting on this, joins us now. So a lot of people are wondering what the impact could be of this.

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, I mean, DOGE showed up on the steps of the IRS about a month ago, and employees there say that their actions have been, quote, fast and furious. Aside from wanting access to all the data within the agency, they're also expressing an interest in cutting nearly 50 programs that the IRS planned to engage in this year and this entire fiscal year of 2025.

So these are the systems that the IRS has that DOGE has an interest in accessing. Number one, their I.T. systems. We know that DOGE has already made access into that system, the H.R. system, which houses all of the career employees' personal information. That was critical in coming up with these REF plans, these reduction-enforced plans, and identifying where the cuts would be.

We also know that DOGE wanted access to the procurement system, which essentially houses all of the IRS's contract information, and they've also asked for access to the system that has all of taxpayers' financial sensitive information. It's worth noting that to date, because of all that is happening within the courts and then weighing how much access DOGE can and cannot have, DOGE has not gained access to American taxpayers' sensitive financial information.

But through many of these career employees and sources who we've spoken to, we know that DOGE's priorities are a few things. Number one, identifying, again, these nearly 50 programs that essentially are meant to make filing taxes much easier for the American taxpayer and monetize the agency's systems. They want to cut a lot of that. They also have an interest in this data that belongs to American taxpayers and sharing it with other agencies, like the Department of Homeland Security, essentially to aid in immigration -- in immigration enforcement efforts.

Of course, there are some issues surrounding that and the privacy issues that would that -- that would be in violation of. IRS is functioning under many disclosure laws that would prohibit them from sharing that sort of data with other agencies and the other, as you mentioned, cutting the workforce by some 20 percent by May 15th. And the overall impact really will be a decrease in customer service at this agency, maybe not this filing season, but the upcoming season, as well as less auditing happening at the IRS.

That means taking in less money, and let's remember that the IRS funds the vast majority of government operations, so you will eventually start seeing impact on the federal government's ability to pay for those other services, Pam.

BROWN: Yes. Important reporting. Thank you so much, Rene Marsh. Appreciate it.

BLITZER: Very important.

And still ahead, a decisive strike on Houthi rebels in Yemen and how an aid to President Trump is now warning Iran could be next.

[11:13:29]

Plus, the President says his tariffs will bring manufacturing jobs back to the United States. But is that realistic? We have a Situation Room special report that's just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: New this morning, the Democratic Party is going through an existential crisis after Senate Democrats, notably Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, helped Republicans avoid a government shutdown. A lot of Democrats didn't like that. Schumer was asked about calls from fellow Democrats for him to be primaried as a result of what he did. So let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: Let me say this. There is spirited disagreements on which was the right vote. But as I said, I think we have mutual respect in our caucus. I am focused on bringing Trump's numbers down, his popularity down, exposing what he has done to America and what he will do. That's my focus right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, joining us now is Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts. He is also on the Armed Services Committee. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show, Congressman. A lot going on. I want to know what your take is. Do you think Schumer is the right person to lead in a moment where your base wants to see Democrats fighting Trump's agenda harder?

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Well, look, I think it's an open question because Democrats should be doing two things right now. One is standing up to Trump. And, you know, this is not standing up to Trump, in my opinion. Some people ask me, Seth, how would you have voted if you were in the Senate? And my answer is simple. I would have voted exactly the same way I did in the House on exactly the same bill, which is against it.

Because even though I've been happy to cross the aisle in the past to keep government open and prevent a government shutdown, even when it means bailing out Republicans from their own extremists, this is a different time. We have got to hold this administration accountable. We have very few levers to do so, and this was one of them.

[11:20:07]

The other thing Democrats need to be doing is reforming our party to get us in a better position to win. And I think a lot of people are questioning whether we have the right leader in Senator Schumer to lead us forward and make sure we have a victory in the midterms in 2026. So that's an open question that people are asking legitimately.

BROWN: So where are you on that? Do you think he should be primaried? Do you think he should be replaced?

MOULTON: Look, I -- I got here through a primary, so I'm never against primaries. You know, people can certainly have that, you know, make that judgment. Look, I called for Pelosi to step down at a time when it was unpopular, when people, you know, questioned whether or not we needed a change at the top. But I think, actually, our caucus has never been more united than we are under Leader Jeffries. Now, I don't sit in the Senate.

I can't speak to Senator Schumer's leadership behind closed doors. From my position in the House, I could see that, and I can see the difference we have with such a unifying leader in Hakeem Jeffries now in the House. So, you know, there's a lot of different perspectives on this, and I'm not in a position to judge for myself.

I'm neither a member of the Senate nor a voter in New York. But people in the Senate, Democrats in the Senate and voters in New York do have to look seriously at this question.

BROWN: Well, listen, as we were talking about, there is a lot of dissatisfaction among voters right now, among Democrats, reflected in the numbers. CNN's latest polling shows the Democratic Party's favorability rating stands at 29 percent. That is a record low in our polling history. Plus, with a Democratic voter, 77 percent say Democrats in Congress are doing too little to oppose Trump. That second number really stands out to me, and it makes you ask the question, in your view, specifically, where have Democrats failed?

MOULTON: Well, we're failing on two levels, and I go back to the two things I believe Democrats should be doing today. One is standing up more effectively to Trump. You know, I had a town hall with about 800 people showed up yesterday in Boxford, Massachusetts, and people are frustrated.

A lot of them said, you know, we -- we love the way you stood up to Trump after the Zelenskyy meeting in the Oval Office, for example, when I very clearly called Trump a coward on this network because that's exactly how he and the Vice President were behaving. I think a lot of people are afraid to just stand out, you know, and say the tough things right now. But we have to do that more effectively as Democrats.

But the second thing we have to do is -- is actually make some reforms to the party, because we lost this election across the board, an election that should have been easy for us to win. I mean, when in our history have we ever run against a convicted felon sitting at the top of the ticket? So this past election should have been an easy one for Democrats, and yet we lost across the board because so many Americans said, you guys are just out of touch. You're just out of touch.

I mean, this other guy might be crazy, but you guys are not in touch with the majority of Americans, which is kind of by definition what we showed by losing this election. So if we did both of those things, stand up to Trump, then the base would be happy. And if we reformed ourselves to actually embrace the majority of Americans, then independents and even some moderate Republicans who are frustrated with Trump would be happy. But right now, both of those groups are upset, and that's why you see the polling numbers for Democrats at truly historic lows.

BROWN: How do you reform yourself, though, to be more in touch with the everyday American person, like you say?

MOULTON: Well, I'll -- I'll tell you what, we've become a party of people who preach down to others, you know, who scold them, who say, if you don't agree with me, you're not only wrong, but you're a bad person. I mean, I think all of us have heard that attitude from many national Democrats in the past couple of years.

So I think we need to stop preaching and start listening. Start meeting Americans where they are. Don't take these minority positions on -- on cultural issues and say, hey, if you don't meet this strict liberal litmus test, then you're not even a Democrat.

You know, when I questioned whether we should at least just have a debate about rules for sports, you know, whether transgender women should compete on the same level as on girls sports teams, I got accosted by, I got told by people, you're not even a Democrat. Well, that's the problem with our party. You can't be a majority party if you don't accept a majority of views.

It happens on this particular issue, 80 percent of Americans disagree with this liberal litmus test, you know, a checkbox for Democrats on this view. So we've got to be a lot smarter in listening to Americans.

My job is to represent Americans, not tell them what to think, but actually represent their interests in Congress. And I think if more Democrats took that approach, took that view, we'd be much more successful as a party. BROWN: It's interesting, too, because as you well know, Governor Newsom came around to your -- to your view on that -- on that particular issue. And --

[11:25:01]

MOULTON: And I'll tell you what, I've heard from so many colleagues behind the scenes. You're right, Seth. You're right. Thank you for I wrote a big op-ed in "The Washington Post" about this. I totally agree with you. But they all say it whispering because they're so afraid to say it out in public, lest they be accosted by, you know, the liberal left in our party.

BROWN: I want to ask you, though, because a lot of Americans like what Donald Trump is doing, right, and you're saying we need to appeal more to those Americans and not sort of demonize those who don't like our ideas. So, you know, how do you do that if -- if you're also saying, look, we need to stand up to Trump and push back on some of his ideas? You know, a lot of Americans wouldn't have wanted to see the government shut down, right. So -- so how -- how can you do both? If that -- if you make -- if that makes sense, if you understand what I'm asking.

MOULTON: Yes, you know, look, I think that's a fair question, but I'd push back a little bit because I don't think Americans like what Trump is doing. They like some of the ideas behind what he's doing. Like I'm a big champion of government reform. You know, I don't think there are many Americans who think the federal government is a model of efficiency.

Oh, let's start a business and model it after the federal government, right. You never hear that. My very first bill in Congress was a government reform bill to make it faster for veterans to get care at the V.A., something that Elon Musk should support. The issue is how they're going about it. Musk isn't reforming government.

He's -- he's just eliminating it. He's trying to to make it nonexistent. And that means that people aren't going to get their tax returns on time. They're not going to be able to get their Social Security problems fixed. We're seeing wait times go up at the V.A. where I'm a patient myself because he's slashing tens of thousands of veterans who work at the V.A. He's attacking veterans.

That's not what Americans want to see. So we've got to stand up to what Trump is doing, what Musk is doing, but also have a plan ourselves, not be opposed to government reform, but just say, hey, we want government reform, too. But here's our plan to get it done. You know, let's -- let's look at what Clinton and Gore did so effectively back in the 1990s.

BROWN: Yes. Just very quickly.

MOULTON: Yes.

BROWN: Because we do have to go. But I want to just follow up with you on the V.A. and the head of the V.A. is saying, look, these cuts will not impact the services to veterans. You have written, though, this letter with -- with Republican colleague Representative Don Bacon asking for clarity on how the cuts would impact the veterans crisis line. Have you gotten an answer back?

MOULTON: No, we have not. No, they don't have any good answers.

BROWN: OK.

MOULTON: So they just don't even want to give us answers.

BROWN: OK, well, we'll continue to stay on top of that because that's very important. I have veterans in my family. I know you're a vet. And so we will continue to -- to look at that. Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you for that candid conversation.

MOULTON: Thank you.

BROWN: Wolf?

BLITZER: And up next, Pamela will break down whether President Trump's claim that tariffs will bring jobs back to America is realistic. A Situation Room special report is next.

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