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The Situation Room

Interview With Rep. Lisa McClain (R-MI); Tufts Student Remains in ICE Custody; Trump Escalates Threats Against Harvard; Trump Lashes Out at Federal Reserve Chairman. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired April 17, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:59]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Happening now: the Fed chairman's warning about the economy appearing to rattle markets and the White House, President Trump declaring that termination cannot come fast enough for Jerome Powell.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.

I'm Wolf Blitzer with Pamela Brown, and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BLITZER: And we begin this hour with breaking news, the president versus the policymaker. Donald Trump lashes out of the chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve.

BROWN: Yes, the president appeared to threaten Jerome Powell's job just hours after the head of the nation's Central Bank warned that Trump's trade war and his policies could cause lasting damage to the economy.

And the latest uncertainty adds to the angst on Wall Street, where the Dow has struggled since the opening bell.

Let's go live now to CNN White House reporter Alayna Treene.

Alayna, this new exchange between President Trump and Chairman Powell has rattled markets, it appears. What are you hearing there?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, look, this isn't the first time we have heard President Donald Trump threaten to try and remove Jerome Powell from his post, but it is the first time he's done this, at least I think in this term, but also, of course, something that he could at least try to do, but would be very hard to do, given the Federal Reserve is something that operates independently.

That's something that Jerome Powell actually stressed yesterday, how they are going to operate independently of this White House and politics overall. Now, the timing of this, though, is what I think is so significant and striking, because the president's post, I will read some of it for now, comes just hours after he had spoke in Chicago yesterday. Trump posted this. He wrote -- quote -- "Jerome Powell of the Fed, who is always too late and wrong, yesterday issued a report, which was another and typical complete mess." He went on to say Powell's termination cannot come fast enough.

Now, Pamela and Wolf, this comes also as we know that Trump has repeatedly been trying to put pressure on the Federal Reserve to cut interest rates, something he reiterated, of course, this morning. But we also know that, yesterday, Powell said that he believes the Fed could be patient and has time to wait to really see how these -- this tariff plan of Donald Trump's plays out, something, of course, not entirely welcome to Donald Trump, part of why he's posting that this morning.

All to say I don't think this is the end of what we're going to hear from the president regarding Powell and the Federal Reserve. It's something that he often threatened to do back in his first term as well, and the two of a very fraught history. So this could just be the start of a longer kind of war on the Fed on Trump's part.

BROWN: Yes, a fraught history, even though Trump himself appointed Jerome Powell.

TREENE: Right.

BROWN: And it seems like, ever since, we have heard this frustration from President Trump.

I also want to ask you about Italy's prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, who is due at the White House this afternoon. She's the first European leader to sit down with Trump since he slapped the new tariff on the E.U. How significant is this visit?

TREENE: Oh, it's incredibly significant.

I also think there's -- it's no surprise that it's actually Giorgia Meloni who's going to the be the one sitting down with the president today for this bilateral meeting in the Oval Office. She's set to arrive here in about an hour. They will meet around 1:00 p.m. Reporters will have an opportunity to ask them questions.

But the key thing here is how the Trump administration is really viewing these broader talks, specifically when it comes to Europe. So Meloni is not just here representing Italy. She's also here to represent the entire European Union.

When I have talked to Trump administration officials about this, they have reiterated to me that, in this broader idea of trying to work out trade deals, of course, Italy and Europe are trying to stave off that 20 percent reciprocal tariff rate that the president had initially placed on the European Union before pressing pause on that.

She's here to represent the entire European Union. And so that's going to be very interesting. We will see how successful she is in that. But, again, I can't stress enough how close President Donald Trump and Meloni are. She's come to Mar-a-Lago and visited him in Florida. They met on the sidelines in Paris and when he was in the transition period before taking office.

[11:05:02]

So it's a good sign that it's someone like Meloni, who has a good relationship, is the one who's going to be sitting down with him today.

BROWN: All right, Alayna Treene, thank you so much -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I want to turn, Pamela, right now to the latest in the very heated battle between the nation's oldest university and the Trump administration.

Harvard University researchers say they're facing potentially very dire decisions, including potentially euthanizing research animals, after more than $2 billion in funding were frozen by the Trump administration following the school refusing to comply with various policy change demands.

CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez is with us here in THE SITUATION ROOM.

We're also getting news, I take it, Evan, about another new threat against Harvard University. What are you learning?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right.

This is an escalating series of threats from the Trump administration against the university, Wolf. And the latest one is from the Homeland Security Department, which is telling the -- Harvard that they may lose their ability to host foreign students.

This is obviously a big source of funding and money for universities. Foreign students bring in a lot of money to these universities.

I will read you just a part of what Kristi Noem wrote to Harvard, saying: "It is a privilege to have foreign students and Harvard University -- attend Harvard University, not a guarantee. Your continued work with this student and exchange visitor program certification is contingent upon meeting these requirements of the Homeland Security Department. Failure to comply with the student records request will be treated as a voluntary withdrawal. The withdrawal will not be subject to appeal."

Now, this is all over their demands for Harvard to turn over disciplinary records of students, visa holders, who may have been participating in some of these protests over the last year over the Gaza war, Wolf.

And, obviously, the IRS is also now looking at revoking the tax exemption of Harvard University. That would be a huge hit for the university. The university has so far refused to comply with Trump's demands. Now, what they're asking for, Wolf, is for Harvard not only to comply with what they say are antisemitic -- control of antisemitic issues on campus, but they want bigger changes. They want to oversee hiring and admission standards. They want to make

sure that conservative views are being represented on campus. Now, one of the things that I think is lost upon this is that there's plenty of conservatives that have come from Harvard, Tom Cotton, Neil Gorsuch, Ted Cruz.

Over the years, Harvard has produced a lot of conservatives. So the idea that Harvard is some cesspool of leftist thinking, I think it's not quite what the -- certainly what the president believes is not quite what we know is true.

BLITZER: Excellent point. Thank you very much, Evan, for that -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Tufts University student Rumeysa Ozturk is spending another day in ICE detention after she was denied bond at an immigration court hearing. She is a Turkish national and a grad student. She was taken into custody last month and accused of being a terrorist sympathizer after criticizing Tufts' response to the Israel- Hamas war.

Jessie Rossman is Ozturk's attorney and the legal director for the ACLU of Massachusetts.

Jessie, thank you for coming on.

Are you surprised your client was denied bond?

JESSIE ROSSMAN, LEGAL DIRECTOR, ACLU OF MASSACHUSETTS: I mean, this was a shocking -- a shocking decision and truly a complete violation of due process and the rule of law.

I think it's important, potentially, for your viewers to understand that Rumeysa has two different court hearings right now. One is her federal court proceeding, which is a separate and independent branch of government. And that's the proceeding that right now is in the District Court of Vermont.

The immigration court proceeding, which is what issued a rule yesterday, that is a separate proceeding, and the immigration courts are under the purview of the attorney general and the executive branch. And that court issued its decision yesterday holding that it was going to deny Rumeysa a bond, which truly is just a complete violation of the due process of law and rule of law, quite honestly.

BROWN: Can I just follow up on that? Because it was a judge -- it was a judge, of course, under the executive branch, as you laid out, but why do you think this judge's decision this, denying her bond, is actually a violation?

ROSSMAN: I think we need to look what was actually presented to that court.

And I want to make clear that the federal litigators, most of us were not able to actually even listen to this hearing. We were denied access. And that's disturbing. But we were able to speak with her immigration counsel. And I think two things that stand out about that is really important for your viewers to hear.

The first is that the government did not produce any additional evidence, no new evidence, in its argument that Rumeysa be denied bond before the immigration court. The only piece of evidence they put forward was the same March 21 memo from the Department of State. It had already been submitted to that court.

[11:10:14]

We actually also submitted it in federal court. It's a single paragraph, and that paragraph does not cite any statement from Rumeysa or any activities of Rumeysa other than her op-ed piece. And that is the only thing that they pointed to argue that she should be denied bond.

And it's simply just not a supportable argument. The second thing that I think is really important for your viewers to understand is that even the government, in their arguments before the immigration court, did not argue that Rumeysa was a danger, and for good reason. There's absolutely no support for that argument.

Nevertheless, the immigration judge reached out of her own accord and with absolutely no support held in denying bond that Rumeysa was both a flight risk and a danger. So, to be perfectly clear, this immigration judge held that she was a danger because she wrote an op- ed, and that simply does not comport with the rule of law.

BLITZER: As you know, Jessie, Ozturk is being held at an ICE detention facility in Louisiana. She lives in Vermont. Is it common practice for ICE to detain people out of state?

ROSSMAN: So I want to make very clear that this is not ordinary immigration enforcement.

Rumeysa was picked up outside of her home in Somerville. She was about to break her fast for Ramadan. And, instead, six plainclothes officers surrounded her. She had no idea why. She was terrified. She was marched to an unmarked vehicle. She was hopscotched across multiple state lines over the course of the evening without being able to contact her friends, her family, her counsel.

No one knew where she was. Very early the next morning, she was taken more than 1,300 miles away to Louisiana, which, as you mentioned, is where she still remains to this day. There was no justification, no need for her to be arrested and to continue to be detained.

This isn't ordinary immigration enforcement. This is punishment based on her speech.

BLITZER: According to -- and, Pam, go ahead and ask the next question.

BROWN: Yes. Yes, I'm just going to pick up where you, Wolf, this statement, right, from the university and spokesperson there, saying that more than 840 students and recent graduates in the U.S. have had their visas or statuses revoked. What is your response to the Trump administration's argument but

because -- that because these students aren't American citizens, they don't have the same First Amendment rights?

ROSSMAN: Look, the First Amendment right protects everyone in the U.S.

And what the government can't do is take away your liberty for an unconstitutional reason here. And, here, what we have been saying for three weeks, and the government has not been able to put anything else forward because there isn't anything else, is that the only reason that they arrested Rumeysa and that they detained her was on the basis of her protected First Amendment right to speak out.

And they're very clearly doing two things. One is punishing Rumeysa for her free speech and trying to chill her speech, and, two, sending a very clear message to everyone else in this country that, if you say something that the administration disagrees with, you can be punished.

And that's something that should be really alarming to every single person.

BROWN: Just to quickly follow up, the administration argues that she is a Hamas sympathizer, sympathizer to a terrorist group. Is she at all?

ROSSMAN: No, absolutely not. And I think a really clear indication of this is, if you look at the "Washington Post" reporting that came out over this weekend, they reported on two memos that the government has not produced to us, that the government has not produced to the court.

But, according to "The Washington Post" reporting, the Department of State itself held that the government had not produced any evidence that she had undertaken any antisemitic activity. They had not produced any evidence that she had made any statements supporting terrorist organizations.

And, in fact, they had searched government databases and not found any connection between Rumeysa and terrorist activity. There is simply no evidence. And the only thing that they are holding her for right now is for the single op-ed that she wrote in a student newspaper that violates the First Amendment. It violates due process.

And it should concern absolutely everything -- everyone. Excuse me.

BROWN: All right, Jessie Rossman from the ACLU, thank you very much -- Wolf.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: And still ahead -- still ahead: He was initially enthusiastic about Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s plans to improve processed foods in the United States. Why a top researcher at the National Institutes for Health just handed in his resignation.

Plus: Scientists say this, Pamela. BROWN: They have just found the strongest signs of life on a distant

planet -- I'm personally obsessed with this story -- that is beyond our solar system. The landmark research just released.

You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

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[11:19:39]

BROWN: Let's get back to the breaking news, President Trump's new attack on Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell. Trump is now calling for his termination one day after Powell warned that the president's tariffs could do long-term damage to the economy.

I want to discuss with Congresswoman Lisa McClain of Michigan. She is the House Republican Conference chair.

[11:20:00]

Congresswoman, nice to have you on.

Do you think the president has the authority to fire the Fed chair?

REP. LISA MCCLAIN (R-MI): That -- I don't want to get ahead of the president. I wish that the president and the Fed chair would come together.

I mean, his term is up, I believe, in May. And I think this is just another example of we have got to work together. President Trump has an agenda, a long-term agenda. And that agenda is to put America back on a level playing field. And I think all parties need to get together and come together to make sure that we're all singing from the same hymnal to get America back on track.

BROWN: Right. I believe -- and my producer will correct me if I'm wrong -- it's May 2026. But you're right. It is May of next year, I believe.

MCCLAIN: Yes.

BROWN: You said this morning on FOX. I was watching the interview, that you said, look, I am not for raising taxes on Americans.

But I'm sure you know several economists say that President Trump's tariffs are ultimately a tax on consumers. I want you to listen to Chairman Powell's stark warning about the president's tariffs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: The level of tariff increases announced so far is significantly larger than anticipated, and the same is likely to be true of the economic effects, which will include higher inflation and slower growth.

Tariffs are highly likely to generate at least a temporary rise in inflation. The inflationary effects could also be more persistent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Does that give you any pause about whether these tariffs are worth it?

MCCLAIN: No, it doesn't, because I think the operative word that Chairman Powell used there was temporary.

And that's just one lens that you're looking at. You either look at the short term or you look at the long term. Listen, we have a lot of mess to clean up from the last four years. I know you may disagree with me, but we need to get America back on a level playing field.

That is not going to take the status quo of do what you have always done and expect a different result. We are trying and President Trump is trying to make transformational, major change. And what I tell everybody is, we may, may temporarily experience some short-term discomfort.

What I mean by that is, I give you this example. If I want to get healthy and I want to get in shape, the first time I get on the treadmill, it's going to be a little uncomfortable and I'm going to be sore the next day or two. But, long term, I will be healthier.

And I think that's exactly what President Trump is trying to do. And I think the other lens that you need to look at -- and I'm sorry I'm giving you a long answer, but I think this is a different lens that we need to look at. There is a lens of job creation.

Michigan ranks number three behind California and New York in manufacturing jobs lost. We need to bring manufacturing and jobs back to America, and specifically back to our state. And that's one of the tools that tariffs will do.

Look at the $5 trillion of investment that we're already getting that will create more jobs...

BROWN: Right.

MCCLAIN: ... that will get more people working, et cetera, et cetera.

BROWN: So -- and I wanted to give you the time to give your response and make your case, but just to follow up on the jobs aspect alone -- and I understand you got to look at this holistically, but even right now in the U.S., there are 480,000 manufacturing jobs open, and there aren't enough people to fill these jobs.

And one of the reasons is that they don't have the skills to fill these jobs. So, how does that square with these tariffs and the underpinning of these tariffs to bring jobs back to the U.S., when you can't already -- you can't fill the jobs that are already here in manufacturing?

MCCLAIN: Well, I think you bring up a very good point. And that's why we're trying and President Trump is trying to revamp the education system, because we need to focus on more skilled trades.

Not everybody needs a four-year college degree. We have to incentivize maybe through Pell Grants or different types of grants, instead of just the four-year college degree. We have to reengage and revamp the education system to get more skilled trades jobs.

I think we can do that in tandem, and we can work hand in hand to do that, again, for the long term. Second piece to that is, I think we have to look at the different types of jobs, the A.I. jobs, the technical jobs, and begin to backfill those jobs as well.

Listen, I am very bullish on what the president is doing is trying to create more jobs and put America first. I'm extremely bullish on these policies.

[11:25:05]

BROWN: Right.

Just to follow up with you, you said there could be short-term pain here; 41 percent of businesses say they're going to have to downsize their work force. And I'm just wondering -- because of A.I., to be specific on that

I'm just wondering, how long are you willing to wait? How much grace are you willing to give? I mean, if prices rise and this really does make it harder for your constituents to buy groceries, for example, and other items, how long of a period are you going to get grace to? And are you concerned it could hurt Republicans in the midterms?

MCCLAIN: Again, to make transformational change, it's going to take some time. I wish I had a magic crystal ball and say X-time.

But look at groceries, the price of groceries. Even eggs are coming down, right? Inflation is down. Gas is down. So it depends on what lens you're looking at the situation from. And I think, if you look, countries are already coming to the table.

I think over 70 countries have come to the table saying, hey, look, we want to renegotiate our relationship with America. We understand -- they may not like it, because they have been able to take advantage of us for so long, but they understand we need to rebalance the scales. And they're willing to do that.

I think that is positive outlook.

BROWN: All right, Congresswoman Lisa McClain of Michigan, we really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective. Thank you so much.

MCCLAIN: Thanks for having me. Enjoy the day.

BROWN: Thank you. You too -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And up next: He was arguably the foremost researcher on obesity and ultra-processed foods, but now a top government scientist has suddenly resigned, claiming his work was being censored.

Stay with us. We have details. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

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