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Pope Francis Dies at Age 88; Pope's Final Days Spent in Service of the Church; Cardinals to Elect New Pope After Francis' Funeral. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, breaking news, tributes, pouring in as the world mourns the death and remembers the life of Pope Francis,

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man who has innovated the church, and a man who has left a great mark. And this, this absence causes great pain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am truly angry. I have been crying for God to receive him. May he rest in peace in the afterlife.

EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT : Throughout his life, he fought for more justice

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And more group chat turmoil, sources now telling CNN that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth disclosed military plans in a second group chat. This one included his wife, brother, and lawyer. And just moments ago, Hegseth responded.

Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer with Pamela Brown, and you're in The Situation Room.

And we begin this hour with breaking news from the Vatican.

A time of mourning as the world's 1.4 billion Catholics honor Pope Francis. The 88-year-old who was the first pope from Latin America, died this morning on Easter Monday. He never quite recovered from a respiratory crisis that put him in the hospital for much of February and March.

Just yesterday, Pope Francis surprised at delighted crowds delivering the traditional Easter blessing from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. He was a leader, beloved for his compassion, his devotion to the poor and his striking humility.

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CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: I was there in 2013 at the time when we elected him. And when we all left after he had blessed the crowd and we went over to Domus Sanctae Marta for lunch and obviously he did the opening prayer, but before he's looking out at all of us and he says, God forgive you for what you did. So, there was a humility and a sense of humor there from the beginning. Those were gifts that he had.

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BLITZER: All right. Let's go to CNN Senior International Correspondent Ben Wedeman. He's joining us live from Rome right now. Ben, walk us through what to expect in the coming hours and days.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that in about four hours in the chapel of the Casa Santa Marta, the spartan guest house in the Vatican behind me, there will be a ceremony where the head of the Vatican Health Office will. Examine the body of Pope Francis and determine the cause of death, issue a report that will be attended by Senior Vatican officials and also members of Pope Francis' family.

Now, just a little while ago, we heard from the director of the Vatican press office that they hope today, at some point, probably after that 8:00 P.M. local ceremony, they will be able to announce the official cause of death for Pope Francis.

Now, we are now in the period that's known as the cede vacante. In Latin, that's the empty seat between the time when the pope has passed away and when the next pope will be appointed.

Now, we are expecting that on Wednesday the pope's body will lie in state in St. Peter's Basilica behind me. After that, a period of sometimes between five and seven days after today, the time of the day of his death, the funeral will take place. However, we don't know at this point when precisely that will be. After the funeral, there will be a nine-day period of prayer and services. 15 to 20 days after the death of the pope, the conclave must begin.

Now, we understand that probably at this point invitations have gone out to the cardinals around the world to come to Rome to first attend the funeral and then the conclave where they will choose, they will elect the next pope. But probably we won't know who that is for many weeks to come. Wolf?

BLITZER: And I remember, Ben, you were in St. Peter's Square when Francis was declared pope back in 2013.

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What did you learn about his future leadership?

WEDEMAN: Well, at the time, you know, we were in the square. And when they announced his name, I turned to my cameraman, Alessandro Gentil (ph), and I said, who is he? We are not Vatican specialists. So, he was an unknown to us. But what he has -- what he came to be was somebody who struck everyone with his humility and modesty, certainly compared to previous popes. He didn't live in the sumptuous apostolic apartments. He chose to live on the second floor in a two-room suite in the Casa Santa Marta, that guest house for the Vatican. And, of course, I think we've all heard the stories about how when he was checking out of his hotel after being elected pope, he tried to pay for it himself. And when he had his first papal flight, he tried to book it with Alitalia by himself.

So, this is a man who, for instance, prefers to drive -- preferred to drive around or be driven around in a Fiat Cinquecento. He didn't like the bulletproof Pope Mobile. He was a cause of considerable stress to his security, his bodyguards, because he wanted to get out and mix with the crowd, which, of course, for those who are concerned about his safety, was a serious worry. Wolf?

BLITZER: A totally amazing person, indeed. Ben Wedeman in Rome for us, thank you very, very much. Pamela?

BROWN: I love that detail that he tried to book his first papal flight, right? Wow.

BLITZER: Man of the people.

BROWN: A man of the people truly every step of the way.

And right now, tributes are pouring in from around the globe as world leaders remember Pope Francis, they're offering condolences and hailing him is a, quote, devoted champion who leaves a legacy of deep faith and boundless compassion.

Let's go live to see an International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson in London. What are you hearing this morning there, Nic?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. That list of world leaders and others who are paying tribute to Pope Francis just keeps growing by the minute almost. It's about his humanity. It's about the hope that he gave to the poor, the joy that he gave to the poor, the fact that he would speak out for the starving, that he spoke out about the war in Gaza, the war in Ukraine, the war in Sudan, appealing for peace to end these wars.

Barack Obama today said that this was a pope who tried to make us all better. The Irish prime minister, Micheal Martin, said that the world has lost an exceptional leader. He goes on to lay out some detail. Let me read it to you, Pope Francis' long and distinguished papacy was marked by his unwavering commitment to the principles and compassion of human dignity. He spoke out for the poor, the marginalized, and the oppressed. His solidarity with refugees, his calls for climate action, you know, the words go on, that all the leaders, almost barring none, are saying that this was a leader who cared about the people, cared about the poor, cared about the planet, pushed others to do better.

And it's interesting that Javier Milei from Argentina, the Argentinean president, who criticized the pope before he became president back in 2022, said that he was on the side of the devil, spoke about his reconciliation, spoke with the pope, spoke about the kindness of the pope and the goodness of the Pope. I think we'll hear more of these sorts of stories today.

BROWN: All right. Nic Robertson, thank you so much.

BLITZER: Meanwhile, the White House is also responding this morning, President Trump taking to Truth Social, his website, to offer his condolences writing, and I'm quoting now, rest in peace, Pope Francis. May God bless him and all who loved him, end quote.

Let's go to CNN Senior White House Reporter Kevin Liptak right now. What else is the White House saying this morning, Kevin?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, brief comments from the president there, but respectful. We also heard from the press secretary who said that the thoughts and prayers of the White House are with the millions and billions of Catholics around the world who loved Pope Francis.

Of course, Francis and President Trump were two very different men. The words modest and humble don't come to mind when you think of President Trump. And, in fact, that moment that Ben Wedeman referenced when Pope Francis was checking out of his hotel the day after he was elected pope, back here in the United States, then a real estate developer, Donald Trump, looked at those photos and said it wasn't very pope-like. And so there were differences.

And we saw that play out over the course of both of Trump's presidencies, differences on immigration. Pope Francis saying in 2016 that talk of building a wall to keep migrants out was un-Christian. But when it came time for these two men to meet face-to-face in 2017, they were able to put those differences aside, and you see that video there of the president walking in to greet Pope Francis at the Vatican.

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He emerged afterward appearing somewhat stars-truck. He said that it was the honor of his lifetime to meet with Pope Francis.

And at the end of the day, that is the reaction that all three U.S. presidents had when they came face-to-face with Pope Francis. I remember being here at the White House when Francis was visiting President Obama, tens of thousands of people out on the South Lawn, Joe Biden as well himself, devout Catholic, remembering p Pope Francis today as the people's pope, a light of faith, hope and love.

BLITZER: Kevin, the vice president, J.D. Vance, appears to have been the last world leader to meet with the pope, Pope Francis, just before his death. What do we know about their meeting?

LIPTAK: Yes, it was a very brief meeting. It came as something of a surprise. It wasn't on Vance's official schedule. His motorcade slipped into a back door at the Vatican on Easter Sunday. He only spent about 17 minutes on the Vatican grounds.

It doesn't appear that they got into some of those contentious issues on immigration. The pope presented Vance a tie and some large chocolate Easter eggs for his kids. And later, Vance departed for India. But he did post this morning that his heart goes out to the millions of Christians all over the world who loved Pope Francis. He said that he was happy to see him yesterday, although he was obviously very ill.

You know, as they were parting ways there at the Vatican, Vance told Pope Francis that he prayed for him every day.

BLITZER: All right. Kevin Liptak from the White House, thank you very, very much. Pamela?

BROWN: And about one in every five Americans is Catholic with New York City being one of the nation's Catholic hubs. That's where we find CNN's Brynn Gingras. She is live at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Brynn, what are Catholics here in the U.S. saying about Pope Francis?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam. You know what? It's not just Catholics. We're seeing people of all faiths go into St. Patrick's Cathedral and pay their respects to Pope Francis.

I'm going to get out of the way because I want you to see what's happening right now. You can see there's NYPD people here at the front of St. Patrick's Cathedral pointing up the bunting for Pope Francis. Inside, there are a number of places inside this cathedral where people could light candles, pay their respects, say prayers, and we're seeing that happening at the altar. There is a big picture of Pope Francis along with the chalice that he used when he visited here in New York City in 2015 and gave mass at Madison Square Garden, also the presider chair that he sat in when he gave that mass. So there are just little pieces of Pope Francis that are inside this cathedral. And people now just saying their prayers and being grateful for the man that he was.

We actually heard from Cardinal Dolan earlier this morning, who talked about this being a death in our family, in the Catholic community's family, and also talking about how he couldn't have choreographed this death any better, talking about how, you know, he gave that last Easter blessing to Catholics all around the world and then rode out in the Pope Mobile amongst people being that pope for the people, and then passing away on Easter Monday.

I want you to hear from someone we spoke outside of St. Patrick's Cathedral about the legacy she says Pope Francis leaves

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he came out and said (INAUDIBLE) and his simplicity and really echoed St. Paul's words, I fought the good fight. I finished the race and I kept the faith. All the things you talked about, things he brought up that he really isn't traditionally talked about, he fought that good fight.

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GINGRAS: That woman getting a chance to meet Pope Francis many years ago.

We've been seeing people walk outside the cathedral crying. We met someone who actually bought some rosary beads that were blessed by Pope Francis, again, when he was visiting here in New York City. So, a lot of emotions coming from not only just Catholics, but people of all faith and tourists here in New York City visiting the cathedral to pay their respects. Guys?

BROWN: All right. Brynn Gingras, thank you. Wolf?

BLITZER: And as the world mourns the death of Pope Francis, coming up after the break, a closer look back at some of his most memorable moments, including his historic address to the U.S. Congress back in 2015.

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POPE FRANCIS: We, the people of this continent are not fearful of foreigners. Because most of us -- because most of us were once foreigners.

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BROWN: Welcome back to our live coverage of this morning's breaking news, the death of Pope Francis at age 88. His 12 years as leader of the Catholic Church, were punctuated by many remarkable and dramatic moments, including this one in 2013.

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POPE FRANCIS: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

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BROWN: It was seen by many as an olive branch from the Vatican to gay priests and the gay community around the world.

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And in 2016, he brought three Syrian refugee families to the Vatican from Greece where they had fled.

During his years as pope often returned to the plight of refugees around the world, and there was this.

BLITZER: The dramatic image in 2020 when COVID was ravaging Italy, Pope Francis preached to an empty St. Peter Square, normally filled with thousands and thousands of people. He called the pandemic a storm that carried everyone on the same boat.

Joining us now from Rome is Elise Allen. She's the senior correspondent for the Catholic news outlet, Crux. Elise, thanks so much for joining us.

What's your reaction, first of all, when you heard the news of his death?

ELISE ALLEN, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, CRUX: Good morning, Wolf and Pam. It's good to be with you. You know, I think most -- everybody in Rome woke up this morning hearing in the news of Pope Francis' passing shocked, but not surprised. I think that's the line for it.

You know, yesterday he seemed to be so triumphant, almost. You could tell that he was frail and that he was ill. You know, he'd just gotten out of the hospital a month ago, you know, having spent 38 days there fighting double pneumonia with a couple of close calls. You know, so his condition was obviously still, you know, precarious given his age and his history.

But he seemed to, you know, come out full of energy as much as he could muster, at least, you know, he gave his noontime Easter blessing, and it was the first time since his hospitalization that he had been out in the Pope Mobile amongst the crowd, waving to people, blessing children and infants handing out candies. So, he seemed to be himself yesterday.

And so even though he'd had this serious health crisis and, you know, he seemed to be frail, you know, yesterday was a sign that maybe things were improving. So, I think when we heard the news of his passing this morning most people didn't expect it. It was a shock for most people here in Rome.

BROWN: Right. They just saw him on yesterday giving his, what they didn't know at the time would be his last blessing. What is his legacy inside the Vatican and the church?

ALLEN: Yes. I think that's a very big question, Pam. You know, it's one that is going to take a lot of time to unpack. I think in the next few days and weeks, you know, as people look back on Francis and his 12 years as pope, you know, I think he really has a reputation and a legacy is being a bit of a maverick. There's not much that Francis did that did not capture the world's attention from the very beginning, you know, when he made the decision to return, you know, to his hotel and try to pay the bill himself to, you know, choosing to live not in the papal apartment in the Apostolic Palace of the Vatican, but in the guest house, which was much more accessible to people.

I think he's going to have many different -- there are many different aspects to his legacy. I think he's going to be seen as a global, pastoral genius. He was really the parish priest of the world. You know, he wanted -- there's part of that, you know, local pastor that never left him, you know, and that's something that he lived until the very end, even in his desire this last week to be with the people.

But he's also quite controversial, you know, for many reasons. You know, a lot of conservative Catholics did not appreciate his stance on, you know, doctrinal issues, you know, without changing church doctrine sort of pushed the boundaries, you know, in the church's, you know, tone up until now into a much more progressive direction, you know, especially on issues such as homosexuality, on women, you know, wanting to see -- to give them a more of a voice, wanting to make sure those who feel like they were at the margins of life and on the peripheries felt more included.

You know, some of his decisions, you know, his decision to restrict the Latin mass, you know, some of those things were quite controversial and they weren't appreciated by everybody. But also his attention to the poor, to the marginalized, to issues such as climate change, you know, that's going to be something that's going to be very important for a lot of people and it's very appreciated by many as well.

So, I think his legacy is quite complex. And, you know, it depends on where you stand, but there's no denying that he was a pope who made a difference.

BROWN: And despite, you know, the controversies that you laid out, he was popular when you look at the polls.

BLITZER: Very popular.

BROWN: I mean, he was beloved and popular.

BLITZER: He was a great, great man.

And I know you had a chance, Elise, to meet with Pope Francis. What was that like and what were your impressions of him?

ALLEN: So I had -- you know, I appreciate you asking, you know, because as a journalist, you know, we cover the pope so closely, you know, but we have very few personal interactions with him. So, I met him on a number of his papal trips, just brief greetings, but I had a private audience with him and two other colleagues in December. We were talking about an abuse case that he was investigating the Vatican, the Vatican was investigating this outfit out of Peru, and he wanted an update, basically.

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And so I was quite impressed when I saw him there and how interested he was, how alert he was, how attentive he was. He really wanted to get to the truth. And that was very clear. And to me, the fact that he gave an audience to three journalists, you know, because he wanted to know what the story was, was quite telling.

And so I found him to be somebody very attentive, very carefully listening to everything that we are saying. He's somebody that was -- you know, even until like those last, these last few months, you know, physically, he was not doing well, but, mentally, he was very present and that was obvious in that meeting.

And so I found him to be in every interaction, but especially that last one in December to be extremely sincere. And you could tell that he really wanted what's best for the church. Again, whether you agree or disagree with his vision for that, it's something I believe his deep desire of his.

BLITZER: Elise Allen helping us appreciate the enormity of this pontiff, thank you very, very much. Elise is in Rome. Pamela? BROWN: Thank you so much, Elise.

And thousands of people from around the world are gathering at St. Peters Square to pay their respects to Pope Francis. As we had to break, this is what some had to say after learning of his death.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a great disappointment, a great loss, a man who has innovated the church, and a man who has left a great mark. And this, this absence causes great pain.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a moment of a bit of sadness and at the same time thankfulness and celebration of life.

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