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The Situation Room
Pope Francis Dies at 88; The Life and Legacy of Pope Francis; Trump Orders Flags Flown at Half-Staff for Pope Francis; Hegseth Addresses Second Signal Chat. Aired 10:30-11a ET
Aired April 21, 2025 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:30:00]
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: For Pope Francis, one final Easter, one final blessing on Sunday, and one last drive around St. Square. We're reflecting on the life and legacy of Pope Francis.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN Senior International Correspondent Jim Bittermann joins us from Paris. Jim, as Catholics and our nine days of mourning, what is next for the church?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think what it means for the church is something that's going to be determined when the conclave actually starts. But first, it's going to be -- there's going to be this long interregnum period, which gives the cardinals, who are going to participate in that conclave, time to get to Rome and to talk to other cardinals about what they really feel they -- the church needs at this particular juncture.
The pope is going to be lying in state for four to six days and then he'll be buried, according to a document that was set out by John Paul II, actually specifying exactly how events were to be taken -- to take place after a pope dies. He is going to be buried, unusually, in the church of Santa Maria Maggiore, which is not in the Vatican. It's outside Vatican walls. It's perhaps a little more accessible and certainly more humble. Although, it's a huge basilica, but nonetheless, more humble surroundings and the trappings of the Vatican and that keep -- keeping, I think, probably with Pope Francis' kind of approach to his pastoral boot, pastoral duties.
In any case, he'll be buried there. There will be a huge funeral. Normally, the John Paul II funeral, I was there and covered it, heads of state and heads of government and crown heads from around the world came. George Bush was the president of the United States at that point. He came for the funeral and it's expected that heads of state and heads of government will come from everywhere to honor the pope.
Then follows this novendiali period, these nine days of mourning, which will conclude with the beginning of the conclave. That conclave could be somewhere around 15 days from now, but it could be advanced if, in fact, more cardinals come to Rome early and some may already have been in Rome for the Easter ceremonies. Pam.
BROWN: All right. Jim Bitterman, thank you so much. Wolf. BLITZER: And, Pamela, as the world mourns the death of Pope Francis, church, bells around the world tow toll (ph) including the ones at St. Peters Square.
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[10:35:00]
BROWN: Well, this morning, the Vatican has entered nine days of mourning, just hours after the death of Pope Francis. And just moments ago, President Donald Trump ordered flags to be flown at half-staff as a mark of respect for the memory for Pope Francis. The 88-year-old had been in frail health and was hospitalized some 38 days for a respiratory crisis.
Joining us now is Father Patrick Mary Briscoe. He is editor of Our Sunday Visitor magazine. Father, thank you so much for joining us. I know you are mourning today. It is a very tough day for Catholics all around the world and beyond. Just a day before his passing, Pope Francis appeared in public to offer the traditional Easter blessing. In fact, he spent his final days in service of the church. What does that say about him?
REV. PATRICK MARY BRISCOE, EDITOR, "OUR SUNDAY VISITOR": It truly is a great surprise. Thank you for having me on to speak with you this morning about Pope Francis, because it's truly a great surprise for Catholics throughout the world to have woken up this morning to the news and to learn that we've lost our Holy Father.
Pope Francis is our shepherd. He's our leader. He is our head, and we always feel rudderless at the loss of any pope, but I think especially Pope Francis who captured so much of the Catholic imagination these last years. Easter has a kind of bittersweet sense to it. And as I've been thinking more about Pope Francis' death, this is what I've realized, is that in his last moments, he gave us a great final spiritual teaching, which is to have confidence in the death and resurrection of Christ. And that is an extraordinary thing.
[10:40:00]
His last words, in fact, of this Easter blessing, encouraged the faithful throughout the world to look with hope to the future that God has promised for all who know and who trusted him. This -- that's a remarkable and truly extraordinary thing.
So, yes, it's a great loss and we're deeply sorrowful this day as we pray for the peaceful repose of Pope Francis' soul. But we marvel at this confluence of God's providence because truly something extraordinary has happened.
BLITZER: Father, how do you see the legacy that Pope Francis leaves behind?
BRISCOE: Pope Francis has died here in the middle of the Jubilee of Hope, and I think that, again, is another remarkable thing -- another remarkable point of God's providence at work here, both because I think that what we're looking at here is looking with hope for the future. And if there was anything that Pope Francis was, you would have to say, I believe deeply that he was a hopeful man, a confident man. Looking always forward to the future knowing that whatever the lord had prepared would abound.
You know, I'm thinking back to one of Pope Francis' first writings, the joy of the gospel when there was so much energy and zeal towards Pope Francis' commitment to evangelization, that is to reaching out to people, to making the church present in their lives that in a renewed way. And so, for that reason, we're seeing, especially during this jubilee year of hope, a renewed fervor, a renewed call to love the gospel the way that Pope Francis did, and to spread really the good news of what it means to be a person of faith through the world with the kind of zeal that he, Pope Francis, did.
BLITZER: How has the church changed, Father, under Pope Francis' leadership?
BRISCOE: This is a great question. Thank you for asking. Because, Wolf, I think what's remarkable for me as a priest, Pope Francis is the only pope that I've known. And so, my priesthood, my ministry has been shaped in a remarkable way by him.
In addition to hope, when I think of what Pope Francis' legacy will be and when I think about what he means to me as a priest, I think of his great lessons of mercy. To be a priest that's gentle in the confessional, to be a priest that wants people to return to the faith and to build new ways for people to be able to enter into a vibrant spiritual life. All of this, I think, is part of Pope Francis' teaching on mercy, that really is a teaching that encouraged us to go out, to reach out, and to be confident in really the dynamism that the gospel has.
So, when I think of what Pope Francis' leadership is, I think of this call to mercy and this will have a lasting impact, I believe, very deeply in the life of the church.
BROWN: So, what qualities and priorities then, on that note, would you like to see in the next pope who is elected?
BRISCOE: Well, of course, this is a very difficult thing to begin speaking about. I mean, we haven't even really begun to mourn the loss of Pope Francis, but I think with every with every pope there's a certain response to his predecessors. So, John Paul II certainly had a kind of way of responding to the life of the world. Pope Benedict did, Pope Francis did.
I wouldn't be surprised, friends, if we saw a kind of renewed commitment to church doctrine, a kind of settling down after Pope Francis' great opening of the life of the church. So, something maybe a little bit more muted or serene. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw these qualities in the next pope.
BLITZER: Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
BROWN: Thank you.
BRISCOE: Thank you for having me on. God bless.
BLITZER: And coming up right here in the Situation Room, new comments just into the to the Situation Room from defense secretary Pete Hegseth, after reports of a second Signal chat that included his wife, brother, and lawyer. That's next.
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[10:45:00]
BLITZER: We'll of course have much more on the death of the pope in just a few minutes. But first, Defense Secretary Pete Seth is trying to blame the news, media and former Pentagon employees after news broke that he used a second Signal group chat to discuss very sensitive military plans with family members. Listen to this time.
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PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Time and time and time again, and as they peddle those lies, no one ever calls them on it. See, this is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations.
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BLITZER: All right. Let's get some more on this breaking news story. Joining us now, Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia. He is the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Senator, thanks so much for joining us. What's your response to that defiant display from Secretary Hegseth?
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA), VICE CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: This is a guy that's in so far over his head that it -- you know, he didn't say anything there about denying that he did this gross sloppy misuse of classified information sharing now with his family members. We heard about the misuse earlier when this information was shared with other senior members of the of the administration. It is way past time that Hegseth should either quit or be fired.
And I think the question's going to be, Wolf, will my Republican senate friends who I know care about our national security, how many more examples of chaos at the Pentagon before they will find their voice and be willing to step up and speak out on the fact that this guy should no longer be secretary of defense.
BLITZER: You know, the Intelligence Community. You know intelligence. How serious, Senator, was this breach compared to other cases of highly classified information being mishandled?
[10:50:00]
WARNER: Wolf, let me give you the best example. I was down in -- a couple weeks ago down in Virginia Beach. I had a big town hall. Many of the people at the town hall knew people that were on the Truman, which is the aircraft carrier that launched these attacks -- or the planes that were launched from the aircraft carrier against the Houthis. They knew members on the Truman, they were outraged because they knew if that information had got out, their loved ones could have been, frankly, put in harm's way, in an awful, awful way.
So, this is such an obvious case of sloppiness, carelessness, not respect for classified information and this is what is happening I fear all across the I.C. is this group of individuals come in and try to politicize our intelligence and frankly, in many cases, have put leadership in place that's incompetent.
BLITZER: Is it that serious, you think Senator, that Hegseth potentially should be charged with some sort of crime for violating top national security secrets?
WARNER: I'll leave that for lawyers to make that determination. I know on the common-sense judgment criteria, if you're putting out attack plans while our planes are in the sky and you're sharing that, not as bad enough that you're sharing it on that chat with the national security adviser and the vice president, but the idea that you are sharing that information with family members who have no basis for having exposure to any of that kind of information. No matter what the secretary says, his comments just don't pass the smell test.
BLITZER: I don't think any of those people on that group chat, that second group chat had a top-secret security clearance and were qualified to hear that kind of sensitive information about war plans that were still underway
During President Trump's first term, as you probably remember, he was often quick to remove officials he lost confidence in. But right now, the White House says the president stands firmly behind Secretary Hegseth. What does that say to you?
WARNER: Well, it says to me that this is a president without any boundaries and without any other adults in the room that say this is, you know, not about the president's feeling at a moment, but it is about the men and women who protect our country in the Defense Department, in the Armed Services, who I can pretty much assure you don't have much confidence.
You saw some of the folks who left this weekend or are fired, saying that there's total chaos at the department, and that creeps through if our men and women in uniform start to lose confidence in their leadership. And I'm afraid that is happening real-time.
BLITZER: I think it's significant, Senator, that even Secretary Hegseth's closest advisers are sounding the alarm about his judgment and the turmoil inside the Pentagon right now, and it is severe. How do you think America's adversaries are reading all of this chaos?
WARNER: Well, it's a great opportunity for China. It's a great opportunity for Russia to continue to push against Ukraine since the president in less than a hundred days has managed to alienate virtually every ally we have around the world, whether it's through his tariff policies or his kind of pettiness with Canada threatening to throw them out of the Five Eyes.
You know, I worry that what had may have been our strength, Wolf, for literally decades was that we had friends and allies around the world that could count on us. They already had that trust, I think, undermined. Then you've got the economic travail of the tariffs. And now, you've got what appears to be a kind of a keystone cops group of leadership over the Defense Department, none of that bodes well for the safety of our country.
BLITZER: So, is there evidence that close U.S. allies, NATO allies, are now reluctant to share very sensitive intelligence information with the U.S.?
WARNER: I am not going to comment on that other than the fact that we'll never fully know, because you don't know what's not shared. I do know there have been concerns about how our country is going to treat classified information. I know people, you know, within the Intelligence Community are aghast, not only at this mistreatment of intelligence but also think about the things, the random filing of General Hawk at the NSA in cyber command. He was extraordinarily well respected. There's still no explanation of that other than the fact that, you know, right-wing conspiracy theorist who denied 9/11 and said school shootings are made up. Laura Loomer came in with this list and suddenly General Hawk, who's well respected around the world, is fired without cause. These are not great signals to send at this challenging time.
[10:55:00]
BLITZER: Senator Mark Warner, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, thanks as usual for joining us.
WARNER: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Pamela.
BROWN: And coming up in the Situation Room, Wolf, we're going to speak to the attorney for the man mistakenly deported to El Salvador by the administration's own admission, as more lawmakers visit the country to demand he be returned to the U.S.
And we'll go back to the Vatican as more tributes pour in for Pope Francis. You are in the Situation Room.
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