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Catholics Begin 9 Days Of Mourning For Pope Francis; Dow Tumbles As Trump Continues To Attack Fed Chairman; Cardinals To Elect New Pope After Francis' Funeral. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:16]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, breaking news, mourning and remembrances pouring in from every corner of the planet, as the Catholic faithful wake up to the news that Pope Francis has died.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Very sad indeed. And we want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer with Pamela Brown, and you're in The Situation Room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

BLITZER: And we begin this hour with the breaking news. The Catholic Church has entered into a nine-day period of mourning just hours after the passing of Pope Francis.

BROWN: Today he is being remembered for his humility and tireless service, especially as an advocate for the poor and for migrants. We are covering all the angles on this Easter Monday. Our correspondents are in place from Rome to New York to the White House. Let's go live now to CNN correspondent Brynn Gingras, who is right outside St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. What are you seeing there this morning, Brynn?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam, of course, St. Patrick's Cathedral is a popular tourist destination in New York City, but we are seeing so many more people go in there this morning, and I'm sure throughout the day, to pay their respects to Pope Francis.

Inside the church there on the altar is a picture of Pope Francis, along with the presider chair that he sat in when he visited New York back in 2015. Also the chalice he used when he said mass, if you remember, at Madison Square Garden. So little pieces of Pope Francis inside that cathedral where we are seeing Catholics, non-Catholics, say a little prayer, light a candle.

In one instance I talked to a woman who said she had to go to the gift shop across the street to buy a rosary bead that he blessed again when he visited back in 2015. So many people, you mentioned humility, Pam. So many people have brought up those aspects of Pope Francis touching them the most. The fact that he wanted to pay for his hotel rooms, the fact that he would want to take the bus. So many, you know, parts of him that were so important to their faith, and also just bridging the gap among so many people. I do want you to hear from one person, a non-Catholic, about how Pope Francis touched his life.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it's, you know, he was a really exceptional person, and, you know, he did a lot of things to -- to try and adjust the -- the church to modern times, and I really, really admire that in him. And, you know, the fact that he spoke up for immigrants, the fact that he came from another part of the world, you know, from the southern hemisphere, you know, I thought he was -- he was an excellent choice, and we're just, you know, waiting to see who comes next, what will happen next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: And outside here at St. Patrick's Cathedral, as we look up, there is now bunting outside here, just another show of how people are appreciating Pope Francis, and remembering him, and honoring his loss.

BROWN: All right, Brynn Gingras, thank you so much. Wolf?

BLITZER: And Pope Francis's death marks the beginning of a whirlwind series of events honoring him, and ultimately choosing his successor. Let's go to CNN's senior international correspondent, Ben Wedeman. He's live in Rome for us. Ben, how will events unfold in the coming days?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we know, Wolf, is that in about three hours in the chapel of the Casa Santa Marta, which is the guest house inside the Vatican City where Pope Francis lived since 2013, there will be a ceremony in that chapel where the chief Vatican medical officer will inspect the body, determine the cause of death, issue a report, and that is done in the presence of senior Vatican officials, as well as some members of -- of Pope Francis's family. After that, we understand that Wednesday, the Pope Francis's body will lie in state in St. Peter's Basilica behind me.

Now, they have yet, Vatican officials have yet to specify the date for the funeral, but we understand it will be within the next five to seven days. Following that, there will be nine days of prayers and services. And then 15 to 20 days after the death of the Pope, the conclave, where the bishops from around the world will come to Rome and be secluded, cut off from the world, and they have, I believe, several days, 13 days, in which to decide who will the next pope be.

Five days after that, the pope will be officially installed as the pontiff of Rome, so it's going to be a very, very busy time in the Vatican City for quite some weeks to come. Wolf?

[11:05:11] BLITZER: Ben, I know you've covered the Vatican. You've covered the Pope now for several years. You've been based in Rome for a long time. You fully appreciate and understand what's going on. Were you surprised by anything that Pope Francis did during his time as leader?

WEDEMAN: Really, Pope Francis was a surprise from the time we heard he had been elected in the conclave. On the 13th of March of 2013, I was here with my friend and cameraman, Alessandro Gentile, and when we heard that it was Francis who had been elected pope, we looked at one another and said, who's he? Because he was not among the names of those who were considered very papabile, popable, so to speak. And from the beginning, he was surprising, his style more than anything.

This was a pope who wasn't interested in the -- the fancy trappings of the papacy. He didn't like to wear the -- the clothing that the pope -- the popes before him had used. He preferred to drive around in the popemobile without the bulletproof -- proof glass that had been used whenever he went in public since the assassination attempt against Pope John Paul II. He just -- he didn't want to live in the papal apartments. He lived in the Casa Santa Marta.

So in addition to him being a figure of humility and incredible generosity, he was very humble. He simply didn't want like the trappings that have become really the normal trappings of a pope here. Wolf?

BLITZER: He was truly a special, special man. Ben Wedeman, thank you very, very much. Pamela?

BROWN: Definitely a man of the people, as you said earlier, Wolf. And this morning, the White House is weighing in on the passing of Pope Francis. Both President Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance took to social media to offer their condolences less than a day after Vance met with the pope. Let's go live now to CNN chief domestic affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny at the White House. What more is the White House saying this morning, Jeff?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, President Trump has just lowered flags here at the White House and in all federal buildings to have staff in honor and to pay a tribute to Pope Francis. The President also early this morning sent a message. He said, may God bless him and all who loved him. But what's extraordinary about this moment, and we're looking at pictures right there on the right of our screen at the White House on the South Lawn, the President and First Lady Melania Trump, are coming out for the annual Easter egg roll.

And that is what is so extraordinary about this day. It's Easter Monday, a very special day in the Catholic faith and the Christian faith. And this is something that we are expecting the President likely to say something about the -- the pope here. But as we watch him, it's also extraordinary that Vice President J.D. Vance, who is a recently converted Catholic, actually met with Pope Francis yesterday at the Vatican.

Mr. Vance is on a trip to Rome as well as to India. So he had a private audience. And it was just very brief. And the Vice President said it was clear how sick he was. But that is what really one of the final world leaders and people who watched the Vatican very carefully said this was a pastoral meeting, the -- the pope obviously showing respect and perhaps hoping to shine a light on some of the Vice President's views. It's no secret or surprise that they actually clashed on immigration, as did the Trump administration as well. So we will bring you words the President says, if he does, momentarily from the South Lawn. Wolf and -- and Pamela.

BLITZER: We'll -- we'll see what he says. All right, Jeff Zeleny, thank you very, very much.

BROWN: Yes, thank you so much, Jeff.

And still ahead, from consoling those who were grieving to wash in the defeat of migrants, how Pope Francis made emotional connection a core part of his papacy.

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BLITZER: And later, we're talking with an attorney for Kilmar Abrego Garcia as four Democratic lawmakers arrive in El Salvador to protest what the White House has said was a mistake in deportation.

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BLITZER: All right, there's breaking news right now. Stocks here in the United States are tumbling. The Dow is down about 900 points, 897 to be specific. I want to go live to CNN business and politics correspondent, Vanessa Yurkevich, who's watching all of this for us. Vanessa, what's behind this drop, such a significant drop?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, this drop this morning comes as investors are really parsing through the fact that there's really been no progress on the trade war, but also there's a war of words shaping up here, and it's between President Trump and the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell.

It's really one-sided at this point because the President really lashing out at the Fed chair this morning in a truth social post, really shaking the independence of the Federal Reserve. He said that essentially Jerome Powell is a loser and that he's calling on Jerome Powell to lower interest rates now. Now, the president does not have the authority to tell the Federal Reserve what to do, much less the chairman of the Federal Reserve.

[11:15:00]

But really the President there has sort of been on this crusade in the last couple days, signaling that he's unhappy with the chair of the Federal Reserve. He's even said that he's looking for his replacement. But he's sort of moved that timeline up. He said initially that he was looking for the replacement at the end of Jerome Powell's term next year. But, Wolf, he's now saying that he would like to remove the chair of the Federal Reserve. That is unprecedented. That is something that has never been done, and that's honestly up for legal debate right now. But you have investors on Wall Street really concerned about the direction of the overall economy and also really concerned that the Federal Reserve is essentially being pulled in the direction of not being an independent body anymore, that the President has so much control that he could remove the -- the chairman of the Federal Reserve and also could have any kind of oversight into the Federal Bank's monetary policy.

So the Dow down now more than 900 points, Wolf. This is something that investors are obviously concerned about. They want to make sure that the Federal Reserve remains independent, especially, especially, Wolf, as this trade war rages on. This is critical that the fact that the Fed has independence so that they can work against the trade war, trying to keep prices lower for everyday Americans, as well as meet their dual mandate of creating full employment, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Vanessa Yurkevich, watching the markets. Not a good day on the markets, at least so far today. Thanks very much for that. Pamela?

BROWN: All right, Wolf. Back to our top story this morning, the world is remembering Pope Francis. The 88-year-old died this morning after spending much of this year, look at this, battling double pneumonia. And -- and he's kissing a handicapped child in this beautiful moment from March 31st, 2013. So touching.

He really was a man of the people, a man with a huge heart and cared about those who are marginalized, the poor. In many ways, a disruptor, an outsider. Joining us now is Bishop David O'Connell of Trenton, New Jersey. Thank you so much for being here and speaking with us. How are you remembering Pope Francis this morning?

BISHOP DAVID O'CONNELL, TRENTON, NJ: Well, I'm remembering him with great fondness. I had the opportunity on many occasions to meet with him and to visit with him. And so in a sense, a loss. You know, we call him the Holy Father for a reason. So I feel his pastoral paternity and I feel the loss of his -- of him from this role as our Holy Father.

BLITZER: Bishop O'Connell, Pope Francis, as you and I well know, was a tireless advocate for the voiceless, the poor, the imprisoned, the migrants and the homeless. How did people receive his message?

O'CONNELL: Well, that -- that was not something new, actually, from his earliest years, but especially as bishop and archbishop in Argentina. He made it very clear that the poor were his priority. And he spoke that message with great zeal and great fervor throughout the rest of his life until the very end of his life. And people, I think, received that well. From the moment he appeared on the loggia when he was first elected pope, it was very clear that this was going to be a different papacy and a different pope.

BLITZER: As you know, Bishop, Pope Francis challenged many traditional beliefs of the Catholic Church and seemed to show a greater compassion for gay Catholics. He famously asked, who am I to judge? How significant was that one question?

O'CONNELL: I don't think it was very significant. However, people make a great deal out of it. You have to understand the context in which that statement was made. He was on a plane and he often spoke off the cuff and sometimes that disturbed people. People gave many, many different interpretations to that statement. Our Holy Father loved everyone and he wanted everyone to feel welcome in the church, including the people who are gay and lesbian.

BROWN: Pope Francis said that the Catholic Church should be a field hospital for the wounded, not a country club. We know that he sort of rejected some of the opulent trappings that came with being the pope. What does that say about him and his stewardship?

O'CONNELL: Well, I think it says a great deal about the man and the person who the College of Cardinals in 2013 decided to elect to be the Holy Father. You know, we say in the Catholic Church that those decisions at the conclave are inspired by the Holy Spirit. And I truly believe that the selection of Cardinal Bergoglio as pope was an inspired decision of the College of Cardinals.

BLITZER: What qualities, Bishop, and what priorities would you like to see in the next pope?

[11:19:54]

O'CONNELL: Well, I -- I think there -- there -- there's always continuity and there's always change. You know, in -- in Rome, there's an expression, fat pope, skinny pope. And basically what that means is the personalities differ, the person differs. And I think there will be some difference for sure. I would hope that he will continue to speak a message of peace and a message of hope. The message that was so very important to Pope Francis. And, you know, in -- in a way, you have to -- you have to let the Holy Spirit speak through his successor. And that's what I'm hoping and praying for today.

BLITZER: And Bishop David O'Connell, thanks so much for joining us. And let me just thank you once again, as I often have, for inviting me to meet then Pope Benedict here in Washington when he's here in 2013. And for inviting me to get an honorary degree from Catholic University in Washington when you were the president of the Catholic University. I'm so grateful to you for all you have done.

O'CONNELL: Well, it was my honor to have you, Wolf. You're a good man and I'm grateful for your friendship. Thank you so much. Such a nice man. Yes.

BROWN: That was thoughtful. I didn't realize all of that.

BLITZER: Did you not know I had an honorary degree --

BROWN: Well, I -- I -- I knew, but I didn't know that the -- the connection there.

BLITZER: He was the president of the Catholic University --

BROWN: Wow.

BLITZER: -- which is associated with the Vatican.

BROWN: Of course. Right.

BLITZER: And they invited me to -- to come and give a commencement speech and then get an honorary degree from Catholic. It was a great honor for me.

BROWN: Amazing. What an honor that is.

BLITZER: Yes.

BROWN: And up next, the Trump administration says that Kilmar Abrego Garcia is a gang member. His family says that's not true. We're going to talk to one of his lawyers as they fight to get him back home after the Trump administration said he was deported in error.

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[11:26:10]

BLITZER: All right, welcome back. I want to get the latest right now on the controversial case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. A state department official told a federal judge, the mistakenly deported man has been moved out of that notorious El Salvador prison and into another detention facility. Right now I'm joined by Abrego Garcia attorney, Benjamin Osorio. Benjamin, thanks so much for joining us. First of all, can you give us the latest on Mr. Abrego Garcia? Where is he right now? And how is he doing?

BENJAMIN OSORIO, ATTORNEY FOR KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA: Thank you very much for having me. As far as his location, we believe at this time that he's no longer being held at CECOT. And that he's been taken to another detention center in El Salvador. More than that, we don't have any additional information. We ourselves are still trying to speak with him directly. And have not had that opportunity, sir.

BROWN: Are you hearing from the Salvadoran officials at all about why he was moved and what the latest is?

OSORIO: We've been in communication with some of the Congress individuals that have gone down there to see him and been organizing trips to see him. And that's sort of the contact on our side that we've been having. Not directly with the Salvadoran officials. So again, we -- we're not sure of the reason for moving. I could guess that it's probably for security reasons, given the profile of this case. But other than that, I don't have any additional information at this time.

BLITZER: Does it appear to you, Benjamin, that the Trump administration received notice of Abrego Garcia's whereabouts from the public statements coming from Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen, who was down there in El Salvador? And if so, why wouldn't that information come to them directly from the government of El Salvador? OSORIO: I would guess that they have been having backdoor dealings with the Salvadoran government and are aware of his location. Given the original denial of Senator Van Hollen being allowed to enter CECOT, it seems like there probably has been some coordination between the Trump administration and the Salvadoran government with specifically with regards to Mr. Abrego.

BLITZER: As you know, the White House keeps saying he's a gang member. What's your response?

OSORIO: I mean, I would echo the Fourth Circuit's ruling that happened last week. You know, Judge Wilkinson wrote a very eloquent opinion that I would invite everybody to read. It's only about six and a half pages.

BLITZER: I think we've lost his audio.

BROWN: That was really important to hear his answer to that.

BLITZER: Benjamin, can you hear us?

OSORIO: Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me?

[11:28:36]

BLITZER: I think we've lost. Let's see if we can reconnect with Benjamin Osorio and continue this interview. It's very important. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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