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The Situation Room

Interview With Rep. Carlos Gimenez (R-FL); Attorney For Kilmar Abrego Garcia Speaks Out; Dow Drops; Pope Francis Remembered. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:33:26]

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NARRATOR (voice-over): Throughout his pontificate, Pope Francis was an outspoken advocate for migrants. His first papal trip outside of Rome was to the southern Italian island of Lampedusa, where thousands of refugees arrive in makeshift rafts. Many don't make the perilous journey.

Francis' visit to Lampedusa turned the world's attention to their plight.

POPE FRANCIS, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): We have fallen into globalized indifference. We have become used to the suffering of others. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't concern me. It's none of my business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Papa, I love you!

NARRATOR: Three years later, he went a step further. After visiting another arrival port for migrants, the Greek island of Lesbos, he returned with 12 refugees on his papal plane. It was an unprecedented humanitarian gesture.

For Francis, the plight of refugees was not about numbers, but names, faces and individual stories. It was also personal. The pope's grandparents and father left Italy for Argentina, narrowly escaping a deadly voyage when they changed their tickets. The boat they were originally due to cross in later sank.

He advocated for every refugee, regardless of their religion. This included the Rohingya Muslims driven out of Myanmar in what many observers denounced as a genocide and who Francis met in Bangladesh. But Francis didn't simply talk about migrants. He tried to mobilize all Catholics to welcome refugees.

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He made an appeal to Catholic communities to open their doors to migrants. Cardinal Michael Czerny was the pope's point man on migrants in the Vatican, who sought to implement the pope's vision. CARDINAL MICHAEL CZERNY, CATHOLIC CHURCH: What we try to do is to

help the church locally, wherever it is, to accompany the migrants and refugees, to welcome them, to protect them, to promote them and to integrate them.

NARRATOR: The Canadian cardinal said Francis saw the migrants' crisis as a litmus test for our humanity, the one that the developed world was largely failing.

But Francis' interventions placed him on collision calls with populist politicians on the right, including President Donald Trump.

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not of building bridges, is not Christian.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To the effect that maybe Donald Trump isn't Christian.

NARRATOR: Predictably, Trump hit back.

TRUMP: He's questioning my faith. I was very surprised to see it, but I am a Christian.

NARRATOR: Francis remained resolute. When anti-migrant political sentiment rose in Italy, he told politicians not to close ports to migrants. And ahead of elections in Italy, where the extreme right won power, he told Italians that migrants must be welcomed.

He continued to speak out about the plight of migrants, urging action. Francis' approach tried to prick the consciences of world leaders and inspire everyone, Catholic or not, to play their part in welcoming refugees.

He even established a permanent memorial for his work, with a statue for migrants in St. Peter's Square. Even though he sometimes felt like a voice crying in the wilderness, Francis worked tirelessly to put into practice the words in the Bible: "I was a stranger, and you welcomed me."

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BLITZER: I want to get back to the very controversial case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador by the Trump administration.

I want to bring in Abrego Garcia's attorney, Benjamin Osorio.

Benjamin, thanks once again for joining us.

Four more Democratic members of Congress are visiting El Salvador today. Do you think that's going to be helpful? BENJAMIN OSORIO, ATTORNEY FOR KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA: I do think it's

helpful the more and more public pressure there is for the Trump administration to follow the Supreme Court's ruling in this case.

So, the more courts, the more public attention, the more that Congress is willing to stand up to the executive, I do think it's helpful, because they cannot continue just to flout the Supreme Court's order here.

BLITZER: What's it going to take, you think, to finally get Abrego Garcia reunited with his family in Maryland, his wife, who is a U.S. citizen?

OSORIO: I think, through the depositions that are taking place, I think through the interrogatories and the documents that we receive, I think we will be able to find hopefully evidence of this agreement that we clearly have with El Salvador to house these individuals.

So I think, once we have that information in our hands, we will be able to have another court order forcing them to comply with the Supreme Court's order to facilitate Mr. Abrego's return.

BLITZER: President Trump and his associates keep saying, they keep insisting that Abrego Garcia is a terrorist, that he's a member of a gang in El Salvador.

What's your reaction to that?

OSORIO: My reaction is the same that the Fourth Circuit had. If you're so confident in your assertions that he's a gang member, then there is a way for you to prove it.

There's a way for you to take away his withholding. They would be well within their rights to reopen his immigration case and relitigate that protection before sending him to El Salvador. There's due process that's demanded here. And that's all we're asking for.

I'm not saying whether Mr. Abrego's a good guy, a bad guy. I have never met him. What I'm saying is, there is a Supreme Court order that is being violated right now by the executive, and they can't choose which laws they wish to follow.

BLITZER: A federal judge is allowing for depositions of government officials handling his case.

What information do you think that process might yield?

OSORIO: I think, again, what we're hoping most is to find this agreement that we clearly have with El Salvador on the housing of these individuals, what those terms are.

And that should show that we have the ability to revoke either that agreement or to modify that agreement to allow for them to release Mr. Abrego into U.S. custody.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: You know, we heard from Senator Van Hollen. And he said, look, this is beyond just the case of one man. This is a larger issue. In his words, if you ignore the constitutional rights of one person, then that's creating a dangerous slippery slope.

How do you see it? Why is this a case that has become such a big focal point of President Trump's controversial immigration policies, in your view?

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OSORIO: If you or I ever were to litigate a case in court or be charged with an offense, we would want to know that we have the full constitutional rights available to us.

We would want to know that there's a process. If somebody's charged with the most heinous of crime, even if they did it, we don't send a lynch mob to immediately exact justice. I mean, there's a trial. There's a process.

And that's all that we're asking take place here. And that's what every American would want if they were subject to the same scrutiny. If they had been charged with any type of crime, whether they did it or didn't do it, they would want to know that they have their full rights available to them.

BLITZER: As you know, Benjamin, Trump officials are vowing that, if Abrego Garcia, your client, ever comes back to the United States, he will immediately be re-deported. How are you planning to fight that?

OSORIO: Well, again, they would be well within their rights, if they want to reopen his immigration case, to try to take his withholding protection.

My understanding is that they're also in -- looking at potentially third countries, possibly Panama or Mexico, where they could deport individuals who have protective orders, as Mr. Abrams did from El Salvador. So we will fight that battle when we get there.

But, again, they have to bring it back before they can do that. If they want to bring it back and detain him, that is well within their prerogative to do that.

BROWN: Let me just follow up very quickly, because we have seen the Trump administration go after law firms, right? Some have struck a deal. Some are suing.

I'm just curious, from your point of view, defending him, Abrego Garcia, are you concerned at all about any sort of retribution?

OSORIO: If lawyers won't fight for people's rights, do you really want those lawyers to represent you, if they won't fight for their own rights?

So, I mean, look, we're not a big firm. I mean, you can go to our Web site and see Murray Osorio is 32 immigration attorneys. We probably have another 100 sort of support staff. I mean, we're having to partner with big law to do this, because we are performing this pro bono.

So, it's not like we have unlimited resources here to fight this, but the fight is worth it, because the due process is worth it. The court, the rule of law, the Constitution, all this has to stand, and so we feel an obligation to stand up here.

BLITZER: Benjamin Osorio, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it very much.

OSORIO: Thank you for having me, sir.

BROWN: Thank you.

And we have some more breaking news coming into THE SITUATION ROOM. Take a look here, this news on Wall Street. Stocks are tumbling right now. The down, as you see right here, down -- the Dow is down more than 1,000 points.

Let's go live now to see CNN business and politics correspondent Vanessa Yurkevich.

What's going on here, Vanessa?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is a major sell-off this morning.

This is coming on the heels of a recent TRUTH Social post that the president made essentially ratcheting up his attacks on the Federal Reserve chairman, Jerome Powell. You see right there the Dow down more than 1,000 points, the S&P down almost 3 percent, and the Nasdaq, the tech-heavy Nasdaq, down more than 3 percent.

Essentially, President Trump is calling for the removal of the Federal Reserve chair, Jerome Powell. He's been doing that over the past week or so. And this comes on the heels of Jerome Powell saying in a speech last week that the president's tariffs were much more than expected and ultimately that this trade war may make it really hard for the Federal Reserve to do their job.

But what investors are reacting to right now is the president saying that he could potentially remove the chair of the Federal Reserve. This is something that is unprecedented. There's debate about whether there's legality in this, that it can be done in the first place.

But investors are nervous now that this really puts the Federal Reserve in a position where it's no longer an independent body, that, in some ways, the federal government would have control or the president would have control over the Federal Reserve and decisions being made about the Federal Reserve.

Now, this comes on top of, obviously, what traders and investors have been experiencing for weeks now, which is the uncertainty of the trade war. And investors are looking at the fact that, if the president does remove the chairman of the Federal Reserve, that would actually make what you're seeing on Wall Street even worse. It would make things worse. So, a lot of uncertainty and a lot of concern over what's happening on the global stage, but also what the president is saying about what he wants to do with the chair of the Federal Reserve, Pam.

BROWN: Yes, investors right now making it clear, though, that they do not like it when the president attacks the Fed chair.

BLITZER: And it seems like those investors have a lot more confidence in the Federal Reserve chairman, Jay Powell, as opposed to the president of the United States, Donald Trump.

BROWN: Well, they clearly don't like the uncertainty that all of this is causing, right? And we're seeing this play out with foreign investors pulling out and more investment in foreign stocks and that kind of thing.

So we're going to keep tracking this, for sure.

Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much.

And joining us now is Republican Congressman Carlos Gimenez.

Congressman, I want to get your take on what's happening with the markets. Should President Trump stop his attacks on the Fed chair, Jerome Powell?

REP. CARLOS GIMENEZ (R-FL): I'm not going to tell the president what to do.

Look, I have been on your show before, and I have said that this is -- this is the result of resetting commerce with the United States of America. And so we have been used to commerce being one way, where people put tariffs on us, but not so much us putting tariffs on them.

[11:50:12]

The president is just trying to reestablish a new reality, a new norm. And when that happens, you're going to have waves and you're going to have the market go up and down until this all settles out. And so I still have confidence in what the president is doing. He is trying to make commerce and trade fair for America, which has been historically unfair to America.

And, again, it's going to cause ripples. And so, again, I think we just need to ride it out.

BROWN: So there's the issue of the tariff policies, but then there's the separate issue of President Trump bashing the Fed chairman repeatedly. Clearly, he wants him to lower interest rates. That's something that he has not indicated he's going to do right now.

And the Fed chair has obviously been speaking out about the trade policy and the impact it can have on the economy. Do you think that the president can fire the Fed chair?

GIMENEZ: I don't know. And so I guess -- if he does, I guess we will figure it out. I mean,

there's uncertainty. Even with your reporter, there is doubt whether he can or he can't. So I really don't know if he can or he can't. If he can, then the Fed has never really been independent, because I'm sure the Federal -- the chairman knows whether the president can fire him or not.

BROWN: Right.

GIMENEZ: And so we will find that out if it happens. I hope it doesn't get to that. And I hope that they can resolve their differences.

BROWN: Right, because the law on the books says that the Fed chair can be fired for cause, right? And that's really the big point.

And the reason that there is independence, as she laid out, is for investors to know that something's not going to happen just because of a presidential policy whim.

I want to turn to the very sad news of Pope Francis dying. Pope Francis pushed the Catholic Church, as you well know, into a more progressive direction on social and environmental issues that didn't always sit well with more conservative members such as yourself.

What is your reaction to his death and where do you see the church going from here after his passing?

GIMENEZ: I'm saddened by his death. I am a Roman Catholic. My wife and I personally met Pope Francis back in 2013. He was a very kind, gentle person. It happened to be my wife's birthday. So he actually kissed her twice. And so we have pictures of that. And it was a very memorable moment for both of us.

We spoke to him in Spanish. So it actually communicated very well with him. Yes, he is a -- he was a Jesuit and more to the left than I would have liked. But he was the pope. And his message was always Jesus- like, Christlike, in caring for the poor and the more disadvantaged. And so, again, I mourn his loss.

Where the church is going to now, I don't know. I'm not involved in church politics. It'll be up to over 100 cardinals that I think are under 80 years old. And we will have a conclave, I guess, in somewhere within 10 days. And then we will find out what direction those cardinals want the church to go in.

BROWN: All right, I want to talk to you about some news here in Washington.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth reportedly used a second Signal group chat to discuss sensitive military plans with his members -- with members of his family, his lawyer. You called the first leaked Signal chat a -- quote -- "huge mistake." Do you have confidence in Secretary Hegseth's judgment?

GIMENEZ: Well, the question is, is this chat prior to the one that was leaked out, or did he continue to use the Signal chat group after that happened?

And so I'm not sure the timing of it was. If it was something that he did prior to, OK, he should have learned his lesson now with what happened with the Mike Waltz incident. But if he did it afterwards, yes, I would have concerns, because it's already -- you have already been burned by it once. I don't think you need to get burned by it twice. I think you should learn from your mistakes.

BROWN: And I understand your point about the timing, but the principles of the issue don't change in terms of discussing sensitive military details on -- on Signal, particularly with people like his wife, who as far as I know, doesn't have a security clearance.

GIMENEZ: Right.

BROWN: I'm not sure, but I don't believe she does. Does that concern you?

GIMENEZ: If, in fact, he did discuss what's called top secret or things that only need to be discussed inside a SCIF with his wife, and she doesn't have that kind of security briefing, yes, it would concern me.

And it should be a lesson to everybody in the administration and everybody actually in the federal government. A lot of the federal agencies use Signal because it's supposed to be an encrypted, very secure application. The fact that these things are being leaked now call into question how secure Signal really is.

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BROWN: Right, how secure Signal is, and we know that foreign hackers try to get into the phones of top officials.

GIMENEZ: Yes.

BROWN: There's all kinds of concerns from intelligence officials.

Congressman Carlos Gimenez, thank you for coming on the show.

GIMENEZ: It's my pleasure.

BLITZER: And, to our viewers, thanks very much for joining us this morning. You can always keep up with us on social media @WolfBlitzer and @PamelaBrownCNN.

We will see you back here tomorrow and every weekday morning for our expanded two-hour SITUATION ROOM at 10:00 a.m. Eastern.

BROWN: "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" is next after a short break.