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The Situation Room

Papal Conclave Begins. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired May 07, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: He actually offered himself personally in exchange for release of the hostages. He actually said he would exchange himself as a kind of a bold gesture. So he has been this strong voice for peace during this war. And he is someone who is looked at favorably as a possible candidate.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Also spoken out, Elise, about the fact that religion and government, religion and politics should not be intertwined, as he has said they unfortunately are right now, in reference to, of course, the violence that is in the region where he calls home.

ELISE ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes.

Of course, to some extent, when you're talking about the governance of the church, that's inevitable. You have to consider politics. But when -- the problem, I think what he's referring to is when religion is used as a motivation for violence and as a basis for violence, as a justification for violence, which is, sadly, so often the case.

And that's what I think he's denouncing and what he finds so abhorrent about the situation and so unacceptable.

BURNETT: So, we are seeing a few more of the front-runners here. We're approaching 100 cardinals taking the oath. There will be 133 who will take it.

In a moment, we're going to see the cardinal of Hong Kong, Stephen Chow, also seen as a front-runner in -- as we consider the possibility of a first Asian pope.

LAMB: Yes, he is being talked of positively. I mean, he's a Jesuit, which means that, because of Pope Francis being a Jesuit, some people felt they wouldn't have another Jesuit.

Cardinal Chow is seen as a holy man, a leader, but he said that he's purposely decided not to learn Italian so that he is not in the running. So...

(LAUGHTER)

BURNETT: Although you say that with a smile. And, Monsignor, as one -- some who may have seen the movie "Conclave" may realize, sometimes, not wanting to be a pope may be your biggest credential to becoming a pope.

MSGR. K. BARTHOLOMEW SMITH, ST. BERNADETTE PARISH, CATHOLIC CHURCH: That he had no intention of desiring the papacy, that's the sort of futility of identifying so-called front-runners at this stage.

They themselves do not know who among them provides what they will discern they need. There are definitely going to be groups who have preferences and several different individuals that they're connected to that they want to put forward. But most of them are very circumspect about the enormity.

That is the reason for all of this solemnity that we're going through right now. That's the reason for the setting, to remind them of the smallness of everything they may have thought was important up to this point, and the greatness of the burden of the pontificate, and the weight of the church, and the salvation of souls, to which they have pledged themselves and which they have worked for so long.

But now, suddenly, they have to do it in a very different way. And they have to be attentive to one another, and they have to hear what one another is saying. And then they have to respond with their best efforts.

BURNETT: And, Elise -- so, as -- Elise, as we are watching the oaths continue, this is?

LAMB: This is Cardinal Kikuchi of Japan. Some people see him as a candidate. He leads the Catholic Church's charitable arm and...

BURNETT: Archbishop of Tokyo.

LAMB: Archbishop of Tokyo.

And here is Cardinal David of the Philippines, who is also seen as a candidate. He's been a bold voice for justice in the Philippines. He's faced death threats for his criticism of former President -- President Duterte. And some people talk of him as a candidate.

BURNETT: And there are two, Christopher, if I am correct, two front- runners, at least, on the list. And, again, as I think the monsignor rightly points out, no one knows, because this group is so unknown to each other.

But there are two possibilities widely perceived as potential popes from the Philippines.

LAMB: That's right.

We also have Cardinal Tagle, who is often talked about as the Asian Francis, as he embodies a lot of the pastoral priorities of Pope Francis. So, Cardinal Tagle and Cardinal David both talked about as candidates. BURNETT: And, Elise, they will, when they -- after they complete

these oaths, there will be a removal, the extra omnes, of anybody who should not be there. The extras leave. They will leave the solemn moment, and then they will have their first deliberation and vote, where they will be casting pieces of paper, actual paper, right, into an urn.

[11:35:01]

They will -- it will be counted. It will be double-counted, checked, right? And then -- we will then see -- they will see, we will not know, but who are really the front-runners. And how many votes in a group of 133 does that really require to establish yourself as a front-runner?

ALLEN: Exactly.

So, once those doors close, they are going to have a brief reflection from the former papal preacher Raniero Cantalamessa to kind of set the stage and set the tone for that vote as they really take final considerations before writing that name on the piece of paper.

And it's said that the big front-runners going into a conclave usually get maybe 30 to 40 votes on the first ballot. And then things tend to change, as you get a feel for whatever one's thinking. And so we will see. Presumably, we will get the black smoke tonight. I don't think they're going to know immediately...

BURNETT: Yes.

ALLEN: ... what they're doing. But tonight will at least set the stage. They will have an idea what's on everyone's minds.

BURNETT: And, sometimes, of course, someone who is seen as a front- runner at the beginning may not end up being the pope at the end. And we just don't know what we will see in these coming days and who will be coming on that balcony behind where we are sitting on St. Peter's Square.

We take a brief break here as they continue the solemn oaths of silence. We will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:41:10]

BURNETT: And we are watching the cardinals continue to take the oaths of silence. We are approaching the end of the 133. We're getting closer. They have gone from most senior. They will end on the most junior cardinal.

Christopher, as you were saying, this is the youngest cardinal as well, the most recently named by Pope Francis, only in his 40s.

LAMB: That's right, the cardinal of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church based in Australia, only 44 years of age, a surprising pick by Pope Francis, but I think it was about Francis seeking to support the Ukrainian church, of course, that's been under the situation of war.

So he is the youngest cardinal who will come forward to make the oath. We can see some more. We can Cardinal Radcliffe, who is wearing the white habit of a Dominican order. He refused to...

BURNETT: To don the red.

LAMB: To don the red.

He got a special permission from Pope Francis to not wear the red. He felt he didn't want to have the robes. And the pope said, yes, you can...

BURNETT: And is he the only one, the only one here as -- it looks as if...

LAMB: Seems to be. That's right.

BURNETT: Yes.

LAMB: Yes.

BURNETT: And he is taking the oath right now from, obviously, Dominican order, Elise.

It is, as we talk about the final cardinal who will take, cardinal 133, will take the oath being only in his 40s, when the cardinal who gave the homily today is too old to vote, because you have to be under 80, but -- at 91, Cardinal Re, just to think about that difference, that span of experience, and that a cardinal in his 40s could well be in multiple conclaves, but also, of course, a cardinal for many decades.

ALLEN: Exactly.

He really has an important role here, him. And I think a lot of the cardinals Pope Francis named are also in their 50s. These guys are going to be the ones who really shape the future of the Catholic Church in the decades to come. We will see who they elect now, but, going forward, conclave after another. We will see.

BURNETT: And now let's listen to the extra omnes.

ARCHBISHOP DIEGO RAVELLI, VATICAN MASTER OF CEREMONIES (through translator): Everyone else, now leave.

BURNETT: So, these are the extra omnes. It is the order for those who are not going to be in the conclave to leave the room.

So who are we seeing leave here?

LAMB: We're seeing the Sistine Chapel choir leave. We have seen other officials and support staff who are allowed to be in the sort of conclave area to support the cardinals, but they are not allowed to be inside the Sistine Chapel. So we heard the order from the master of ceremonies, Archbishop

Ravelli, extra omnes, everybody out. And you can see everybody is filing out of the Sistine Chapel, and the doors will soon close behind them.

BURNETT: Close behind them, leaving the cardinals who will vote, only 133, behind.

Father Beck, this is a lot of people, though. The extra omnes is a lot of people who are leaving the room.

[11:45:02]

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION CONTRIBUTOR: It sure is. And I'm sure they're sad to be leaving. Who wouldn't love to stay in that room?

And, then after those doors close, we will have the spiritual reflection by Cardinal Cantalamessa, who's an OFM Franciscan capuchin. And, as we heard, he's emeritus preacher to the papal household. He's 90 years old. So we will have heard today exhortations from two 90- year-old men who are speaking to these cardinals about the responsibility they have and what they are to do.

So we have a lot of experience speaking to them in that spiritual reflection before they begin the voting. And the voting, where they say, I elect as supreme pontiff, will be on that ballot. And that's what they have to vote.

BURNETT: And let's listen.

The doors are closed, each one individually. And here in St. Peter's Square, there was clapping, because now, the next time that we see those cardinals, there will be a pope.

LAMB: That's right, a really quite dramatic moment there with the doors shutting, symbolizing the cardinals now locked away for their voting for the next pope. And, yes, as you say, the next time we will see them will be when the white smoke goes up.

BURNETT: And when that white smoke goes up, Elise, we will not know who the pope is for maybe a half-an-hour or so. They don't put -- release it.

We see the pope. We physically see the pope come out on the balcony behind where we are sitting. So when we -- the world knows there is a pope will be when we see that man who is currently a cardinal in that room walk out on that balcony.

ALLEN: And that's part of the surprise. That's part of the anticipation. That's part of the magic of that moment is that nobody knows until it's officially proclaimed, until they have the habemus Papam and his name is pronounced to the world.

And that's part of what makes this moment and that moment so special for the world, but also for especially -- I was thinking about this listening to the applause here -- the church in Rome. This is not just the pope. This is their bishop. So they have a very special relationship with this man.

So those who are going to come here from abroad, but come here from their homes maybe, from other neighborhoods...

BURNETT: To see, yes.

ALLEN: ... are going to come out to greet their new bishop as well.

So it's something. It's a very special moment, particularly for the church here in Rome.

BURNETT: It does feel very familial and welcoming here, Christopher, with all the people who are here.

Just one thing, and not seen as a front-runner, but the cardinal who will make the announcement of the pope...

LAMB: Yes.

BURNETT: ... that is, there is a cardinal whose job that is.

LAMB: Yes, that's right.

BURNETT: So the only way that it won't take us 30 minutes to know a pope after that announcement will be if he is not the one making the announcement.

(LAUGHTER)

LAMB: That's right.

(LAUGHTER)

LAMB: Cardinal Dominique Mamberti, who is the protodeacon, he will make the announcement, habemus Papam.

But, as you say, if someone else walks out on the balcony, then we know it's him who's been -- it's not -- it's him who has been elected.

BURNETT: Yes. Yes.

And I know we smile at that. He is not perceived to be a front-runner, but, as you have pointed out, Monsignor, in this unprecedented and truly historic conclave, it is -- there are so many unknowns, because these cardinals are truly, in many ways, unknown to each other.

SMITH: This is true.

I think the timeline is not made for modern American television. Even you yourself won't make it to dinner until very late tonight. That black smoke will probably not come until about 8:00, at the soonest, saying that they have run their ballot and they're ready to leave the chapel and go back to the Casa Santa Marta, because, first off, Cardinal Cantalamessa is not known for his brevity.

[11:50:05] And he gets to talk to them first, and then they have to choose all the various roles. They draw the names on little wooden bowls out of a bag, and who gets to count the ballots, and who gets to review the ballots, who gets to be the infirmarii.

And you see the pace at which they move. It's very deliberate and very reflective, and they follow all of the steps.

BURNETT: Yes.

SMITH: And so -- and this is also the first time they have done it. So everything is awkward and slow, and it's -- as many people as took the oath,they walk up and they present a ballot, and they swear that -- an oath as they vote.

So you're going to be watching those shadows lengthen across the square for quite a while before any foreign news comes out. And even that only happens after the homily is finished and Bishop Ravelli leaves. The master of ceremonies is still in there. So when he says extra omnes, he means, everybody but me, get out.

And so he and the preacher both have to leave...

BURNETT: Yes.

SMITH: ... as well after that part is done. And then it's only the cardinals in there. They don't have any helpers.

But the helpers sort of wait outside.

BURNETT: No helper.

SMITH: Yes, the helpers wait outside, the ceremonial helpers, and some security people and all that. And they're there once the balloting is done. They walk into the chapel and then they help. They help take the ballots that have been collected and burn them in the stove.

And then they sort of preside over the ceremony of the ending of the session, and then escort the cardinals out to the buses that take them back to the Casa Santa Marta, where they get dinner. They get dinner together. And so there are people in the Casa Santa Marta who are -- who have made them dinner and who will help them eat and taking care of the rooms.

And so that's what I call the broader conclave, the people who are still cut off from the outside world because they have access to the cardinals, but they're sort of at a respectful distance as that goes on. And the cardinals themselves, the part that they do when it's just them, the 133 men, that's the actual balloting process.

That's the -- what I call the narrow conclave. That's when nobody else is in the chapel. And that -- again, that process is solemn and slow, and at the pace you just witnessed in the oath-taking.

BURNETT: Yes. SMITH: And so I hope you don't have early dinner reservations.

(LAUGHTER)

BURNETT: Yes. Well, no, we're here all night.

Katie, the -- what the monsignor is noting, though, is important, the deliberate nature, the adherence to tradition and to practice, combined with a group of people who have not done this before, who do not know each other.

And also those roles, as the monsignor points out, must be established and are chosen at random, right? The three cardinals who will count the ballots, the three cardinals who will double-check the ballots, those roles all have to be chosen, and presumably this is the process that obviously is beginning now.

KATIE PREJEAN MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The giant board that holds all the little wooden balls with numbers, it kind of looks like a bingo board, which, for Catholics, we have all played bingo at Knights of Columbus halls our whole life.

So I think there's a nice little -- everybody recognized it when those pictures were released yesterday. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine. She's a photographer for the Vatican, and she was saying, if you get one of those older guys who's the infirmarii, who has to go back and forth from Casa Santa Marta to pick up the ballots of any sick cardinals, well, that adds another 10, 15, maybe even 20 minutes.

Cardinal Dolan gave an interview, and he said, bring a book to the conclave, because it's a very slow process. It's a very quiet process. There's no choir in there. There's nobody singing and offering background music. They vote, they walk up, they drop the ballot in. They might have some time to pray a rosary or to read a book.

He brought one about Michelangelo. So there is a deliberateness to it, and I think it's actually quite beautiful, even the randomness of who's going to do the various jobs inside. It is very collective and brotherly.

BURNETT: Yes.

MCGRADY: And camaraderie is there.

BURNETT: Yes. And it is -- there's also -- we were just looking at the chimney, which we are going to be sitting and watching, because we anticipate, we know there will be a vote today at some point. The shadows may be long, as the monsignor warns us, but behind us, the Sistine Chapel, and we can -- from St. Peter's Square, you can see that smoke.

The first smoke will come up. And I am just waiting to see what the reaction of the crowd will be, even though, of course, today, they all anticipate it will be black, there will not be a pope, but, nonetheless, they will see that smoke. LAMB: Yes, it's an exciting moment.

BURNETT: Yes.

LAMB: Because you don't know when it's going to happen. And, suddenly, we're on chimney watch now.

(LAUGHTER)

BURNETT: We will sit here and watch this chimney.

[11:55:00]

LAMB: And then, suddenly, we start to see some activity, and maybe smoke going up.

And I think that will kind of be a bit of an electric moment amongst the crowd who are watching it.

BURNETT: Yes, and, up at the chimney, at least, were the seagulls. The seagulls are there waiting...

(LAUGHTER)

ALLEN: They always are.

BURNETT: ... unaware they are going to be besieged by smoke.

Do you feel comfortable -- I mean, obviously you don't know who it will be, but in the prediction sense of it, we are now hours, days away, days away, however many days it may be, from a pope.

ALLEN: We are indeed.

Again, once those doors close, nobody knows what's going to happen. I'd say, if it's a short conclave, Parolin is probably our best candidate. If it's longer than that, it's anyone's game.

BURNETT: Parolin, of course, the most senior who was leading.

LAMB: Yes, that's right. He's leading and overseeing the conclave, the most senior cardinal bishop. He's talked as a front-runner, but, as Elise is saying, I think, if it's going to be Parolin, it has to be done quickly. If it goes on as the conclave, then it's more likely that an outsider candidate could emerge.

BURNETT: Right, and that is the excitement of it.

And, of course, anyone who's seen the movie "Conclave," that -- the whole point there was, someone started off with one or two votes and all of a sudden becomes pope. That has traditionally been fiction, not reality, but we are in a moment where we just don't know.

And that is the true excitement that we are sitting here lucky enough to witness on an absolutely gorgeous afternoon in Rome, where the Sistine Chapel is full of 133 cardinals who will be voting later on today for the first time for the 267th pope.

We're going to take a brief break. We will be here, all of us and all of CNN, to watch this with you. We will be back after this.