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States in Court to Challenge Budget Cuts to NIH Research; Trump Announces Trade Deal with U.K. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired May 08, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: -- things to the CIA that could really reshape the agency honestly for years to come. The cuts there are expected to impact between 5 and 6 percent of the overall workforce there. But notably, who's going to get shielded from these cuts is director of operations officers. These are the CIA officers who are responsible for collecting human intelligence, for conducting covert operation. Quite literally, the CIA's actual spies.

The group that is not going to be shielded from these cuts is the analysts. The people who are responsible for making sense of the intelligence that officers in the field collect and bring back to the CIA. So, what we're seeing is a real enactment of something that Ratcliffe said very early on in his confirmation hearing was a big priority for him. Essentially, let's make covert action great again, let's, in their view, return the CIA to its core competency of collecting human intelligence.

So, this is a pretty significant shift. It's going to be kind of a fine line for Ratcliffe to walk because he has to both keep the White House satisfied that he is shrinking the CIA, that he is shrink -- you know, following the president's directive to sort of shrink the government overall, while simultaneously earning the trust of a workforce that not only is worried about their own jobs, but is sort of notoriously difficult to win over.

So far, he seems to be doing this. We heard from a number of officials that career officers in the CIA, at least some of them, view him as sort of acting as a buffer between the White House and the agency as he carries out sort of a more deliberate restructure of the agency than we've seen at some other federal agencies. But it's a delicate dynamic. We will see how it goes going forward.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And unlike some of these other agencies where we're seeing the cuts and having, you know, day-to-day impact on Americans, this is different because it's a CIA and most of us don't know what they're doing.

LILLIS: It's all behind the scenes.

BROWN: It's all behind the scenes. All right. Katie Bo Lillis, thank you so much. Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And Katie has a new book that's just coming out this week entitled, "Death of a Racehorse." A great book, riveting, and I'm glad you wrote it. Good luck with the book.

LILLIS: Thank you.

BROWN: It's so great. I'm reading it right now. It really is riveting and so well researched. As a Kentuckian, I love it. So, highly recommend.

LILLIS: Thank you so much.

BLITZER: Good work. Katie Bo. Thank you very, very much. And just ahead, as the Trump administration is putting pressure on high education, some faculty members at public universities want to get ahead of any potential legal issues by banding together. We'll speak to a professor at Rutgers University who's leading the effort there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:00]

BLITZER: Later this afternoon, nearly two dozen states will be in a Boston courtroom to challenge President Trump's slash funding of health and medical research by national -- by the National Institutes of Health. It comes as U.S. colleges and universities around the country are reeling from their own funding cuts over on-campus culture.

One leading nutrition researcher at Harvard University tells CNN that a treasure trove of data collected over 45 years could be lost and years of scientific research could come to a sudden end. The consequences would be enormous.

Now, some faculty members at some big 10 schools are urging administrators to band together with a mutual legal defense pact as a brace for potential court fights.

Let's discuss this with Rutgers University Professor Todd Wolfson. He is helping to lead the effort over at Rutgers University. Thanks so much, Professor, for joining us.

So, why do you want a unified approach as opposed to each school challenging the Trump attacks on its own?

TODD WOLFSON, PROFESSOR, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY AND PRESIDENT, NATIONAL FACULTY UNION, AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF UNIVERSITY OF PROFESSORS: I mean, we want a unified attack because what Trump is trying to do is take one university at a time and bully that university through a host of different measures. And so, our feeling is that if the universities come together and defend all of higher ed together, we need to defend the entirety of the sector.

And so, if the university system comes together and stands up together, whether it's the big 10, whether it's a larger group of universities, we're going to have more power to respond to the Trump administration with their really outrageous attacks on our system.

BLITZER: So far, the Trump administration has mostly targeted some Ivy League schools, especially Harvard University. Do you think public state universities like Rutgers where you teach are the next target?

WOLFSON: They already are targets, from the attacks on DEI in higher ed to the attacks on NIH and NSF funding, to the attacks on our students and their visas. That's not just happening at Harvard or Columbia. That's happening at Rutgers University, University of Michigan, University of Virginia. And so, the attacks are coming down on the entire system.

What the Trump administration is trying to do is say that higher ed is exemplified by Harvard. It's not. It's exemplified by community colleges, small four-year colleges and public universities by -- like Rutgers, which are also under attack.

So, yes, the attacks are coming. I mean, Rutgers is seeing millions of dollars of research funding cut from the NIH, from NSF, et cetera.

BLITZER: Ultimately, as you know, Professors, school administrators, not professors, will make the final decision. Why are university administrators, at least many of them so far, reluctant to take on the Trump administration?

WOLFSON: You know, I think -- and this is where -- I want to start by saying that faculty, students and staff have been leading in the fight back against the Trump administration's outrageous attacks on higher education, whether it's the millions or billions of dollars in cuts to the NIH and NSF or the attacks on our institutions like Harvard, Columbia, and Princeton, or the abduction of our students off the street. And finally our universities are standing up with faculty, students, and staff.

[10:40:00]

And so, I think that if a faculty continue to stand up with our students and with the other workers on our campuses, we will force our universities to stand up with us. So, the Mutual Defense Pact is another example of faculty leading and moving the universities into a position where they join us.

And I'll say one more thing here, which is we cannot fight one school at a time. And that's one of the reasons why our administrators of our schools are so slow to respond because what they're thinking about is their own school's interests. They don't want to put their neck too far out because then the Trump administration, which has shown itself to be bullies, attacks that specific institution.

But if we don't recognize that this is a fight over the future of higher education, and as higher education goes, so goes democracy, we won't be able to fight for all of us. And so, that's why we need a collective response to the Trump administration.

BLITZER: As you know, Professor, not necessarily all faculty are on board with this idea. One professor at the University of Michigan is calling it, and I'm quoting now, "a legal mutual suicide pact." How do you respond to that?

WOLFSON: I mean, that's funny. I hadn't heard that. I would say that the University of Michigan's vote around the mutual defense pacts, it's one of the only ones where the entirety of the faculty voted, and it was something like the 90 percent vote for the mutual defense pact. Anything you do is not going to have unanimity among a hundred percent. So, I think a 90 percent democratic test is pretty good.

BLITZER: And very quickly before I let you go, Professor, how worried should my alma maters be, the State University of New York at Buffalo and the Johns Hopkins University?

WOLFSON: Say again? How -- what about them? They --

BLITZER: How worried should they be about, you know, financial damage as a result of what the Trump administration is doing? The State University of New York at Buffalo and the Johns Hopkins University?

WOLFSON: Well, Johns Hopkins University gets a lot of NIH funding. And so, they should be very worried, right. Last year at this time, the NIH had given out over $7 billion in funding. At this year, they've given out about 3 billion. If we extrapolate that out across the rest of the year, that's a $20 billion cut to our biomedical research infrastructure. And that cut means, no research on cancer, on Alzheimer's, on diabetes, on heart disease, which is going to have a drastic impact on every American. So, I think Johns Hopkins should be very concerned and they need to stand up with us.

SUNY Buffalo as well. And SUNY also passed a mutual defense pact, the entirety of the SUNY system. And so, it's time for us all to get together, stand up against these outrageous attacks on higher education and tell Trump enough is enough.

BLITZER: Yes. Good point. Professor Todd Wolfson of Rutgers University in New Jersey, thanks very much for joining us.

WOLFSON: Thanks for having me.

BLITZER: And, Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Wolf, we're going to have much more news after the break. But first, here's this week's "Chasing Life" with Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of CNN's "Chasing Life" podcast.

Do you ever need a boost of energy, a boost of motivation? Well try creating a dopamine menu or a dopa menu. It's a personalized list of activities that can bring you relaxation, relief, and reward. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter. It's a key part of our brain's reward system. It's crucial in decision making, planning, and the ability to pay attention. If you can trigger your brain and access that dopamine, it can help you focus.

So, here are a few tips for creating your own dopa menu. Write down your ideas in advance so you have a list of activities ready when you need it. Pick things that are reasonable to do and that resonate with you. Reading, listening to music, taking a bath. You can also organize your menu the way a restaurant does. Appetizers are small breaks. Main dishes take a bit longer, and desserts are more indulgent. Just remember, have fun with it.

And you can hear more about how to optimize your health and chase life wherever you get your podcasts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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[10:45:00]

BROWN: And we continue to follow breaking news out of the White House this morning. The president is set to announce a new trade framework with the United Kingdom at any moment. So, when that happens, we'll take it to you live. It would be the first deal of its kind since his global trade war began. According to a U.S. and U.K. official, the announcement will be heavy on future commitments and leave the existing 10 percent universal tariffs in place for now.

Joining us is Texas Republican Congressman Tony Gonzales. He serves on the Appropriations and Homeland Security Committees. Congressman, great to have you back on the show. Do you think that this new trade framework will go far enough to ease concerns about Trump's tariffs?

REP. TONY GONZALES (R-TX), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE AND APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE: I think it's a great start and the fact that U.K. is the first one out of the gate, I think goes to show that, you know, the Brits have been supportive of us, not only on a security standpoint, but an economic standpoint.

[10:50:00]

We've been hand in hand on many different issues, and I look forward to other countries as well. Let's get some trade deals done with some of our partners in Asia. I just got back from Japan. Let's get some deals done with some of our partners right here in our backyard in Central and South America. So, I think this is the first of many very positive start.

BROWN: So, you know, the president says many countries, they're coming to the table with deals. We have yet to see those deals other than, of course, this framework with the U.K. that we're waiting on details about. How long are you willing to give the president until you start losing patients on behalf of your constituents?

GONZALES: I'm willing to give him four years, essentially. I think this is going to be a lot of twists and turns, I think for many Americans to include my constituents and Texans back home, we just want fair trade. And if we can get to a point where fair trade is the story, I think that's a win-win for everybody.

Now, the sooner we get that done, I think the easier it is for everybody. But this is going to take some time and I think we're willing to give the president some runway here.

BROWN: So, you're giving the president some runway, you said, I'm willing to give him four years. We've talked to a number of economic experts, those tracking the ports and so forth, and they say, right now, ships aren't showing up at the key ports. Prices on many daily items will go up soon in addition to higher prices on certain goods right now, and there will just be, overall, fewer items available for American consumers. Is that acceptable to you?

GONZALES: Well, no one wants to pay higher prices, including myself and my constituents. You have to give the president a lot of credit here. He has been very nimble, right? You know, they've come out the gate very strong, very heavy in the first hundred days, but they've been very nimble in trying to find a deal.

BROWN: All right. I'm sorry to interrupt.

GONZALES: You know, he often talks about --

BROWN: I have to go to President Trump about this trade framework, stick around.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: With this deal, the U.K. joins the United States in affirming that reciprocity and fairness is an essential and vital principle of international trade. The deal includes billions of dollars of increased market access for American exports, especially in agriculture, dramatically increasing access for American beef ethanol, and virtually all of the products produced by our great farmers.

And our secretary, as you know, of agriculture is here. Brooke, thank you very much.

BROOKE L. ROLLINS, U.S. SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE: Thank you.

TRUMP: Being here.

ROLLINS: It's a good day. Thank you, sir.

TRUMP: You'll let the farmers know. In addition, the U.K. will reduce or eliminate numerous non-tariff barriers that unfairly discriminated against American products. But this is now turning out, I think, really to be a great deal for both countries because it'll be really great for the U.K. also. So, they're opening up the country. Their country is a little closed and we appreciate that.

They'll also be fast tracking American goods through their customs process. So, our exports go to a very, very quick form of approval and there won't be any red tape. Things are going to move very quickly both ways. The final details are being written up in the coming weeks. We'll have it all very conclusive, but the actual deal is a very conclusive one. We think just about everything's been approved. So, good for both countries.

And we'll also receive new market access for American chemicals, machinery, and many other industrial products that weren't allowed. And they'll end up getting products that they'll be able to price. And if they like them better and we make great products, they'll be buying those products, but they were not available in the U.K.

Furthermore, in a historic step, the deal includes plans that will bring the United Kingdom into the economic security alignment with the United States. That's the first of its kind. So, we have a big economic security blanket and that's very important. And we feel very, very comfortable with that because it's been a great ally. Truly one of our great allies. I mean, a lot of people say our greatest ally. I don't want to insult people by saying that, but I can say it's certainly one of our greatest, and right at the top, and they're the first one we're talking about.

And by the way, we have many meetings planned today and tomorrow and every country wants to be making deals. And we have a meeting. As you know, Scott will be going over to Switzerland on Saturday, that'll be very interesting. We'll find out. I think they want to make a deal very badly too.

Both countries have agreed that the economic security is national secured, and we'll be working together as allies to ensure that we have a strong industrial base, appropriate export controls and protections for key technologies and industries like steel. Steel is a big factor. Both countries will become stronger with steel and things necessary for military.

You know, we used to build ships and other things literally at a level that nobody's ever seen. And we haven't -- we've eased up and I would say that the U.K. certainly eased up, but now, we're going to be easing both and we work together.

[10:55:00]

Once again, I want to thank Prime Minister Starmer. He is been terrific for his partnership in this matter. The special relationship and external bond, it's really an external and an internal bond between our two countries. We'll soon be stronger than ever before, and we really do. We have a great relationship. I want to just say that the representatives of U.K. have been so professional and it's been an honor doing business with all of them and in particular the prime minister. And I'd like to introduce him now to say a few words. Mr. Prime Minister, please take it away.

KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Thank you, Mr. President, Donald. This is a really fantastic historic day in which we can announce this deal between our two great countries, and I think it's a real tribute to the history that we have of working so closely together.

Can I pay tribute, Donald, to your negotiating team as well, Particularly Howard and Jameson who've done an incredible job, a very professional job and my team as well? Two negotiating teams have worked at pace now for a number of weeks to bring in this deal today. Really important deal.

This is going to boost trade between and across our countries. It's going to not only protect jobs, but create jobs. Opening market access. And as you say, Donald, the timing couldn't be more apt because not only was it 80 years ago today that victory came for Europe after and at the end of the Second World War, but of course, on that day, the U.K. and the U.S. stood together as the closest of allies.

And, Donald, I think even down to the hour, because you may or may not know that it was about this time of day, exactly 80 years ago, that Winston Churchill announced victory in Europe. And that led to great celebrations across Europe, across America, but particularly in the United Kingdom. Literally people going out into the street putting (INAUDIBLE) up, going up to the palace.

And so, to be able to announce this great deal on the same day 80 years forward, almost at the same hour and as we were 80 years ago with the U.K. and the U.S. standing side by side, I think is incredibly important and makes this truly historic.

That close relationship has endured over those 80 years. As you know, Donald, when it comes to defense and security and intelligent sharing, of course, there are no two countries that are closer than our two countries. And now, we take this into new and important territory by adding trade in the economy to the closeness of our relationship. It is built, as you say, on those notions of fairness and reciprocal arrangements. We've always had a fair and balanced arrangement between our countries. This builds on that. Hugely important for sectors like car manufacturing and for steel and aluminum and so many others.

And yes, we can finish hanging out some of the details, but there's a fantastic platform here, including of course on the tech side where I think I'm right in saying we're the only two Western countries with trillion-dollar sectors when it comes to tech.

And in the end, it comes down to, as you say, Donald, economic security is national security or national security. We've been absolutely the closest of allies for so many years, keeping the peace through that close alliance, that friendship. And now, we add to that this deal on trade and the economy. And I want to thank you for your leadership on that, Donald, and for the way in which your team have negotiated this, and I'm so pleased that we've got this deal. We've finalized it and we've built an incredible platform for the future. So, thank you so much. Donald.

I'm now going to go and do a press conference. I think you have your press in with you. But on the details, I think if you've got Howard, we can deal with that through one of my team.

TRUMP: That's great. Well, Mr. Prime Minister, thank you very much. It's an honor. We're going to have a continued, maybe a better relationship than ever before.

You know, I don't know if the media knows, but the U.S. and U.K. have been working for years to try and make a deal and it never quite got there.

STARMER: Yes. TRUMP: It did with this prime minister. So, I want to just congratulate you.

STARMER: Yes. Well, with this president, this prime minister, we've managed to achieve what many people have tried to achieve for many years.

TRUMP: That's right.

STARMER: And I'm really pleased and it feels completely historic and on a special 80-year anniversary as well. So, Donald, thank you so much.

[11:00:00]