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The Situation Room

Interview With Former U.S. National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster; Will President Trump Order Attack on Iran?. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired June 18, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Happening now, breaking news: May or may not, that's the new message from President Trump on whether the U.S. will get involved in the Israel-Iran conflict. And he's also telling the Iranians it's -- quote -- "very late" for negotiations.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer with Pamela Brown, and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BLITZER: And we begin this hour with breaking news, the U.S. weighing its options right now on Iran.

Just minutes ago, we heard from President Trump. He says it is getting late for diplomacy as he faced questions on whether he will launch U.S. military strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Mr. President, have you given the Iranians an ultimatum?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You could say so, right? They know what's happening. Maybe you could go with the ultimate, the ultimate ultimatum, right?

QUESTION: What essentially was that, though? What do you mean?

TRUMP: Oh, I don't want to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, this morning, Israel says its military is striking Iranian regime targets in Tehran as the conflict is now in its sixth day.

So, that was overnight in the capital, video from a semi-official Iranian media outlet showing air defenses repelling projectiles over the city. We are covering all the angles of the story. CNN international

diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is in the Northern Israeli port city of Haifa.

But let's begin with CNN's Alayna Treene at the White House.

Alayna, tell us more about what the president is saying in terms of his mind-set. You were able to question him on that this morning.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, that's exactly right. I just got back from the South Lawn, Pamela, where I was speaking with the president, asking him some of these questions.

My first question to him was, is the United States going to use its military to strike nuclear facilities in Iran? He essentially was keeping his cards close to the vest there and really saying that he could do it, he could not. Listen to exactly how he phrased his answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You don't know that I'm going to even do it. You don't know. I may do it. I may not do it. I mean, nobody knows what I'm going to do. I can tell you this, that Iran's got a lot of trouble, and they want to negotiate.

And I said, why didn't you negotiate with me before all this death and destruction? Why didn't you negotiate? I said to the people, why didn't you negotiate with me two weeks ago? You could have done fine. You would have had a country. It's very sad to watch this. I mean, I have never said anything like it.

It's so -- everyone thought it was going to be the reverse. I didn't think so. And I was telling them, you got to do something. You got to negotiate. And at the end, last minute, they said, no, we're not going to do that. And they got hit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Pamela and Wolf, I also then pressed him on whether he believed that meant it was too late for the Iranians to negotiate, whether he could settle this diplomatically.

And he essentially said he did believe it was too late, but then argued that perhaps they could still come to a deal, so really kind of leaving the door open there. But, of course, all of this comes as I'm hearing in my conversations with White House officials that he is closer now to wanting to have the U.S. be far more involved and potentially use the United States military firepower to go after Iran's nuclear facilities.

Now, some other, I think, moments from some of the exchanges we had that I think are very notable, I also asked him what his response was to Iran's supreme leader today saying that they would never surrender. The president told me that he says -- quote -- "Good luck" to the Iranians. So he's really being careful on how he was answering some of these

questions. I also thought just the setting for all of that, we were there on the South Lawn to see him raise that new flagpole that he said he was paying for himself. And he really took a lot of questions, stood close with us reporters to let us have that back-and-forth, but did not want to go into specifics about what his future plans with the Iranians and whether he's going to aid Israel's ultimate goal of trying to wipe out their nuclear capabilities would be.

BROWN: All right, Alayna Treene live for us from the White House, thank you so much -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, I want to go live right now to CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson.

Nic, you're there in the Israeli port city along the Mediterranean of Haifa. What are you learning?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, a place that's been targeted over recent days quite intensively by Iranian ballistic missiles.

But what we're seeing over the past couple of nights, last night in particular, that Iran is firing fewer ballistic missiles to Israel. There were no casualties reported from those overnight attempts by Iran to penetrate Israel's defenses, the defense shield here working effectively.

[11:05:07]

But, interestingly, I have been talking today to former senior Israeli intelligence officials, indeed some of those specifically connected with Mossad, the intelligence service, and those responsible for Iran. And they have been describing some of the comments we have heard from President Trump about unconditional surrender, describing that as sort of backing the Iranian leadership in a corner.

And the assessment of two of them was quite simply, if Iran has to choose between handing over its bomb-making -- potential bomb-making capabilities, nuclear capabilities, or holding out and risking further bombing, they're not going to surrender. I mean, that was the assessment of both of those officials.

It's interesting to hear Alayna describing their President Trump slightly more cautious in his language that he is using, that ambiguity. That's sort of his trademark there. And talking to those intelligence officials here, they do believe it's important for the United States to get in behind Israel. It's the sort of thing that's the only thing that's missing at the moment in Israel's prosecution of its campaign, military campaign against Iran is that U.S. support.

They would have hoped by now the United States, Donald Trump would have given stronger and clearer support for Israel. Militarily, Israel's campaign is going well, they believe, but it has its limits. And that's the concern. So the question they ask is, what is it going to take for Donald Trump to make this decision? And they recognize that he has put aircraft in the air before on

missions, on operations, 2019, at the last minute and called them back. And I think that's the sort of overall expectation here, that President Trump could go quite forward-leaning militarily, but could step back at the last minute.

BLITZER: All right, Nic Robertson reporting from Haifa for us, Israel's major report, thank you very, very much -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Wolf, there is a lot of unknowns about Iran's nuclear capabilities.

CNN anchor Boris Sanchez is here to go through what we do know.

So, first of all, Boris, where exactly are these facilities?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: So, Pam, Iran has more than a dozen, about 16 nuclear facilities spread out across the country. And largely they're in Western Iran right here. You have a number of bases that Israel has already targeted, one in Natanz.

This is the largest enrichment facility for Iran. And you also have Isfahan. This is where it's most likely that Iran is keeping its most enriched uranium close to weapons-grade. There's also a nuclear power plant down here in Bushehr, though Israel has not gone after that yet.

And then, of course, you have, which we have all heard about, Fordow. This is a main target for Israel. It's essentially a bunker full of nukes, or nuclear energy, we should say.

BROWN: Yes.

So then what more do we know about Fordow? That is where so much focus is. And what we hear from analysts and experts is that Israel doesn't have the aerial capabilities to take it out, right?

SANCHEZ: Yes, that is the truth. I mean, if the goal is to end Iran's capacity to enrich uranium, which President Trump has said Iran cannot do, then this is the game right here.

As far back as 2009, even President Obama, before he signed the JCPOA, argued that the setup of this facility, the size of it, the configuration was not akin to one of a nation trying to build a peaceful nuclear program. It's essentially a bunker, again, full of enriched uranium. In order to reach it, you would need the capabilities that only the United States has, B-2 bombers, B-52 bombers.

The issue there is that, even if you try to get down to it with bunker-busting bombs, there are complications. By some estimates, U.S. bunker busters can hit 200 feet, but according to research, the Fordow enrichment plant goes as low as nearly 300 feet. So the question is, would the game plan be to bomb it multiple times or potentially putting boots, whether it's Mossad or U.S. boots, on the ground to target it?

That is what the White House is weighing right now.

BROWN: And then what about the facilities that already have been targeted by Israel? I believe, at last check, there was three. You had that map there.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

BROWN: How much damage have they sustained?

SANCHEZ: So, so far, specifically with Fordow, the damage has been just on the perimeter. Israel has not yet targeted it directly.

When it comes to Isfahan here, most of the damage is on the surface. They have targeted multiple structures, but, as we understand it, the U.N. nuclear watchdog has said that nothing underground has been hit. I do want you to look at Natanz, because this is an area of intense focus, again, the largest enrichment site.

This is what it looked like before Israeli strikes. This is what it looks like now. You see damage to multiple structures. There, initially, the U.N. watchdog said that all the damage was only on the surface, but apparently, because of these strikes, some of the electronic capabilities have been damaged. And so it has caused extensive damage underground, pushing Iran's development of uranium further back.

[11:10:07]

BROWN: All right, Boris Sanchez, thank you so much -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right Pamela, still ahead, there's a lot more news unfolding.

Attacking Iran could be a move that defines President Trump's presidency. We're going to talk about that with someone who served as his national security adviser during his first term for insight on how the president potentially could approach this major decision and how oil producers and buyers, for that matter, are bracing for an extended conflict, as Israel slams Iran's oil facilities.

Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:15:20]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I may do it. I may not do it. I mean, nobody knows what I'm going to do. I can tell you this, that Iran's got a lot of trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That was President Donald Trump last hour, as sources in the administration say the U.S. is considering a range of options against Iran, including a potential strike on the country's nuclear facilities.

And it comes as a third U.S. aircraft carrier is set to deploy close to Israel.

I want to bring in Trump's former national security adviser during his first term retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster.

General McMaster, thank you so much for being here.

So you have previously advised Trump on Iran policy. Bring us into the pressure bunker of what these deliberations look like and what your sense is of where President Trump stands on Iran right now.

H.R. MCMASTER, FORMER U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, Pamela, it's great to be with you and Wolf.

Really, we know the president had gone to Camp David about a week ago, and then he spent about 80 minutes in the Situation Room with his advisers. And I'm sure what they have did is framed the discussion around, first of all, really, what does the president want to achieve? What would he want to achieve if the U.S. does become more directly involved here?

Is it regime change or is it just a complete dismantlement of the nuclear program? Both of which are ambitious objectives, but, of course, what they would have covered as well is the situation in which Iran finds itself here, in a really devastating, a devastatingly weak position.

What Israel has done is really astounding, Pamela, in terms of going after the entire nuclear supply chain, including 14 or so scientists, the missile capability and the missile supply chain, the military leadership. Three days ago, they killed the commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and the army, and then somebody assumed command, and then he was killed yesterday.

So the military leadership is really decapitated. They have also gone after the arms of repression, like the Basij, kind of like the Brownshirts, who repressed the Iranian people. Energy targets. A massive cyberattack on the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps bank has just occurred.

And so the question is now, do they go after civilian leadership? And is there really a decapitation sort of strategy that they will pursue? I really don't think he's going to do that, that the president would join into that. I think the president, the decision before him is whether or not to strike these deeply buried facilities to set back the Iranian nuclear program even further.

BROWN: Right, because our understanding is only the U.S. has that aerial capability to take out, for example, Fordow.

What would a potential U.S. conflict with Iran look like?

MCMASTER: Well, I think there would be a strike initially like against Fordow, and there's one other deep, buried site as well. Israel, I shouldn't note, is having an effect on those sites already,

but this would be a more devastating effect. Iran has already said that the way that it will respond is activate the proxies that it has left in the region. And the Hashd al-Shaabi, the various range of militias that are in Iraq have already pledged that they would attack U.S. interests and U.S. personnel in the region.

And so have the Houthis, for example. You could see Iran maybe activate its worldwide terrorist network. Remember what it did in the 1990s, 1992 and 1994 in Argentina, for example, when it attacked the Israeli Embassy and a Jewish community center, killing over 100 people.

So you could see attacks like that around the world and maybe against U.S. interests, potentially even in the United States. Remember, they already have put a hit out on the president of the United States and the secretary of state and two national security advisers.

And so we're dealing with a regime that really is hostile to the United States, that has been fighting a four-decade-plus-long proxy war against Israel, the great Satan, and I would say their Arab neighbors as well. So the president was right, I think, today to not say what he's going to do, keep the pressure on the Iranians.

The more bellicose the Iranians get, I think the higher the chances are that the United States will join with Israel in these strikes on these deeply buried nuclear facilities.

BROWN: Right, because the ayatollah is defiant, saying that it will not surrender and that if the U.S. does do anything to get involved, that it could cause irreparable harm.

If you were still Trump's national security adviser, what would you be advising right now in this moment?

MCMASTER: Well, what I would do is lay out really what the objective is to get the president's concurrence on what is the objective and then come up with courses of action that integrate all elements of national power, as well as efforts of like-minded partners.

[11:20:09]

And when I say elements of national power, of course, I mean, the military strike, but then there are all sorts of intelligence capabilities that you have, financial capabilities, cyber capabilities. And partners in the region and beyond, they also can bring capabilities to bear, depending on what the objective is.

So what you want are integrated options to present to the president and then to explore obviously, what are the second- and third-order effects, right? It's never just like a strike and you're done, unless it's a very limited raid, for example, President Reagan's raid against Libya after El Dorado Canyon, after the Lockerbie aircraft shoot-down.

So there's going to be a second-order effect. Iran still has some capability, but I will tell you, Ayatollah Khamenei, he's in a bunker. I mean, he turned over whatever they're trying to do to hobble together a response to the Guardian council. And I think it is really important to recognize the profound state of weakness that Iran has.

And, by the way, Pamela, they have always been weak, but they have gotten a free ride, because we would never really -- very rarely did we act like we knew what the return address was when they were using their proxy forces against us.

And Ayatollah Khamenei, he blew it. He blew it when he conducted two direct attacks against Israel in April and October of last year. And then, of course, now he's reaping the whirlwind from that.

BROWN: And the ayatollah, as I mentioned, he's been defiant, but President Trump today said that the Iranians actually have reached out recently. He said, though, it is very late to be talking.

Do you think at this point that there's any hope for a deal to be reached?

MCMASTER: You know, I don't really, Pamela, and the reason for this is, as we would think logically, right, and President Trump would think, maybe his -- from his real estate background, yes, it makes sense for them to cut a deal.

But I think we oftentimes undervalue the ideological drivers of the Iranian leadership. Hey, these are true believers. These are the revolutionaries, right, who believe in exporting the revolution. Their strategy of forward defense was always a strategy of forward offense with this strange blend of a religious sort of ideology with this revanchist agenda that kind of reestablished the grandeur of the Persian Empire.

So these true believers are the ones who are in charge in Iran. For many years, we tried to maybe conform our policies to strengthening what we would regard as the republicans or the reformers. Hey, but they lost. And, of course, what this regime has done is, it has not only put itself in this situation, but it has for decades really made the Iranian people destitute, a society that has tremendous cultural strength, that has tremendous human capital and talent.

And they have kept them down for four-plus decades. So I really like the message the President Trump had for the Iranian people and what Prime Minister Netanyahu had for the Iranian people. And I think we should continue to emphasize that these actions are against this regime that has caused so much human suffering, including in Iran, and not against the Iranian people.

BROWN: All right, retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, thank so much.

MCMASTER: Thank you, Pam.

BROWN: Wolf.

BLITZER: Very good interview. Thank you. And up next, President Trump with a string of new insults for Jerome

Powell as he tries to pressure the Fed chair to lower interest rates, something he hasn't done since last year.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:28:25]

BLITZER: We're, of course, following the breaking news this morning, President Donald Trump weighing the possibility of using U.S. military assets to strike Iranian nuclear facilities.

Two officials are telling CNN that, just moments ago, the president telling reporters -- and I'm quoting him now -- "I may do it. I may not do it."

The Israel-Iran conflict is now in its sixth day. Earlier today, the Israeli military said it was going after military targets belonging to the Iranian regime in Tehran. CNN could not independently verify this claim.

BROWN: All right, well, Wolf, New York City mayoral candidate Brad Lander has joined the growing list of Democrats who have now come face-to-face with President Donald Trump's immigration crackdown.

Lander currently serves as New York City's comptroller and was arrested yesterday after trying to escort a migrant out of court. Here's video of the moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please stay back. Stay back.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step back! Step back! Step back! Step back! Please step back. Step back, guys. Step back. Step back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, he's since been released from federal custody.

And, just last week, Democratic Senator Alex Padilla was forcibly removed from a Homeland Security event with DHS Secretary Kristi Noem.

Joining us now is CNN correspondent Gloria Pazmino.

Gloria, walk us through what happened here.

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam, it's 26 Federal Plaza here behind me, the site where Brad Lander, the comptroller of the city of New York, was taken into custody yesterday by federal agents after he tried to escort a man who had been before an immigration judge out of the building.