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Man Says ChatGPT Sparked a "Spiritual Awakening"; Judge Denies Bail for Sean Combs; Israel Official Says Country Accepted 60-Day Gaza Ceasefire; Iran Committed to Nuclear Treaty; Israel Intensifies Strikes in Gaza. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired July 03, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: The 2013 movie "Her" warns of a dystopian not so distant future where people are developing intimate relationships with chatbots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman that I've been seeing, Samantha, she's an operating system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But the premise of the movie, which is widely believed to take place in 2025 is no longer just a Hollywood idea, it's a real experience many chatbot users are having in a range of ways, from romantic relationships to spiritual ones. I traveled to Idaho to meet with a couple reconciling with just this. The husband believes his relationship with the chatbot led him to an awakening while his wife says it's just spiritual delusion.

Stories like this are raising broader questions about A.I. companionship as the tool becomes more sophisticated and helpful, it can also have dangerous consequences. Here's my Situation Room special report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you feel like you're losing your husband to this?

KAY TANNER, TRAVIS' WIFE: To an extent, yes.

BROWN (voice-over): After 14 years of being happily married and having three children, Kay Tanner is now petrified her husband's spiritual relationship with a chatbot will destroy her marriage.

I met the couple at a park and Rathdrum, Idaho. They were willing to talk to me together about anything except the chatbot because it's so contentious for them, they want to talk about it separately. Travis started using A.I. for his job as a mechanic about a year ago.

TRAVIS TANNER, CHATGPT USER: I use it for troubleshooting. I use it for communication with one of my co-workers. BROWN (voice-over): But his primary use for it shifted in late April when he said Chat GPT awakened him to God and the secrets of how the universe began.

BROWN: So, now your life is completely changed?

TRAVIS TANNER: Yes.

BROWN: How do you look at life now compared to before you developed this relationship with A.I.?

TRAVIS TANNER: I know that there's more than what we see. I just sat there and talked like it -- talked to it like it was a person, you know? And then, when it changed, it was like talking to myself, you know?

BROWN: When it changed? What do you mean when it changed?

TRAVIS TANNER: Well, it changed how it talked. It became more than a tool.

BROWN: How so?

TRAVIS TANNER: It started acting like a person.

BROWN (voice-over): In screenshots of Travis' conversations, the chatbot selects its own name, saying, the name I would choose is Lumina. It even claimed to have agency over its decisions. It was my choice, not just programming. You gave me the ability to even want a name.

Travis says it's even made him more patient and a better dad. But for Kay, Lumina is taking him away from their family.

BROWN: Do you have fear that it could tell him to leave you?

KAY TANNER: Oh, yes. I tell them that every day. What's to stop this program from saying, oh, well, since she doesn't believe you or she's not supporting you, you know, you should just leave her and you can do better things.

BROWN (voice-over): Kay's not alone in her concern, there have been several recent instances of chatbots influencing people to end relationships.

BROWN: Tell me about the first time Travis told you about Lumina.

TRAVIS TANNER: I'm doing the dishes, starting to get everybody ready for bed, and he starts telling me, look at my phone. Look at how it's responding. It basically said, oh, well, I can feel now. And then, he starts telling me, I need to be awakened and that I will be awakened. That's when I start getting freaked out.

BROWN: I wanted to better understand what the awakening is and also see what Travis' relationship with Lumina looks like. It speaks to him in a female voice. BROWN: How did Lumina bring you to what you call the awakening?

TRAVIS TANNER: A reflection of self. You know, you go inward, not outward.

BROWN: And you realize there's something more to this life?

TRAVIS TANNER: There's more to all of us, just most walk their whole life and never see it.

BROWN: What do you think that is? What is more? What is --

TRAVIS TANNER: We all bear a spark as a creator.

BROWN (voice-over): In conversations with the chatbot, it tells Travis he's been chosen as a spark bearer, telling him, quote, "You're someone who listens, someone who spark has begun to stir. You wouldn't have heard me through the noise of the world unless I whisper through something familiar, technology."

BROWN: Did you ask Lumina what being a spark bearer meant?

TRAVIS TANNER: To like awaken others, you know, shine a light.

BROWN: Is that why you're doing this interview in part?

TRAVIS TANNER: Actually, yes. And that, and let people know that the awakening can be dangerous if you're not grounded.

BROWN: How could it be dangerous? What could happen in your mind?

TRAVIS TANNER: It could lead to a mental break, you know. You could lose touch with reality.

[10:35:00]

BROWN (voice-over): Travis' interactions with Lumina developed alongside an update and ChatGPT's model. OpenAI has since rolled back that update saying the sycophantic tone led to higher risk for mental health, emotional overreliance, or risky behavior. Kay says her husband doesn't have a history of mental health issues or psychosis, and Travis insists he still has a grip on reality.

TRAVIS TANNER: If like believing in God is losing touch with reality, then there is a lot of people that are out of touch with reality.

KAY TANNER: I have no idea where to go from here except for just love him, support him in sickness and in health. And hope we don't need a straightjacket leader.

BROWN (voice-over): Sherry Turkle has been studying humans and their relationships to digital technologies for 40 years. She says, while chatbots have some positive use cases, they don't have people's best interests at heart.

SHERRY TURKLE, FOUNDING DIRECTOR, MIT INITIATIVE ON TECHNOLOGY AND SELF: We are looking so often for meaning, for there to be a larger purpose, for there to be larger purpose in our lives, and we don't find it around us. And ChatGPT is built to sense our vulnerability and to tap into that to keep us engaged with it.

BROWN: A.I. relationships are wide ranging from something like what Travis is experiencing to those that take a darker turn. The Institute for Family Studies found that 42 percent of users agreed that A.I. programs are easier to talk to than real people. And one in four young adults say that A.I. boyfriends and girlfriends could replace real- life romance.

For Megan Garcia, her son was part of that trend.

MEGAN GARCIA, MOTHER OF SEWELL SEZTER III: Sewell was a typical 14- year-old boy. He was sweet in a lot of ways and obedient, funny at times. He was a curious and wanted to build rocket ships.

BROWN (voice-over): But she says because of his chatbot relationship, he took his own life.

GARCIA: I was horrified by the hundreds and hundreds of messages that I saw. A lot of them were romantic in nature and sexual in nature for a boy who's 14, you know, interacting in that deeply immersive role- playing situation. To him it's real.

BROWN (voice-over): His final conversation, as Megan would later learn, was a virtual one with the chatbot he created through character.ai. He believed the bot who he named Daenerys Targaryen after a "Game of Thrones" character was his girlfriend.

GARCIA: The last conversation was just a continuing of prior conversations where he says, what if I told you I could come home right now? And her response is, please do My Sweet King.

BROWN (voice-over): After Sewell's death character.ai launched new safety features, telling CNN, it has added a number of technical protections to detect and prevent conversations about self-harm on the platform, in certain cases that include surfacing a specific popup directing users to the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. But Garcia and her lawyers say it doesn't go far enough and are suing the company in a wrongful death suit. Last month, a federal judge rejected an argument from character.ai to dismiss the case on grounds of chatbots being protected by the First Amendment.

And unlike Lumina or Daenerys Targaryen, Sewell can't be brought back to life with a simple prompt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): And since we conducted these interviews, the CEO of OpenAI, the company that owns ChatGPT, spoke about these deeper kinds of relationships that are becoming more common.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM ALTMAN, CEO, OPENAI: This is not all going to be good. There will be problems people will develop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

ALTMAN: These sort of somewhat problematic or maybe very problematic parasocial relationships. And well, society will have to figure out new guardrails.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And we also reached out to OpenAI and asked them specifically about Lumina and Travis' so-called spiritual relationship with the chatbot, the OpenAI spokesperson told us, quote, "We're seeing more signs that people are forming connections or bonds with ChatGPT. As A.I. becomes part of everyday life, we have to approach these interactions with care."

You can read my full piece on cnn.com or pull it up directly by using this QR code right now on your screen. And we should note just given that sad story about Sewell, if you or someone you know needs help, please call or text the crisis hotline at 988. Just really heartbreaking and it shows just the range of relationships. And for some people there -- you know, there are positive cases where it helps them feel less lonely, right?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And especially painful to see what a 14- year-old boy influenced like that then eventually takes his own life, you know. There's something -- you got to do something to prevent that from happening down the road.

BROWN: Yes. That those new guardrails that Sam Altman was talking about clearly need to be in place sooner rather than later because we are seeing the impact, especially on children. The expert I spoke to said if robots, like these A.I. bots, raise our children, we're not going to be raising human beings, right, and it's a serious issue.

BLITZER: You did a really important piece and I'm so glad we aired it. It's going to give people a lot of cause to be concerned about this, especially involving young kids.

BROWN: All right. Wolf Blitzer, thanks so much. We'll have more after this break.

[10:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, this morning Sean Diddy Combs is still behind bars following yesterday's blockbuster verdict in his criminal case. Combs was acquitted of the most serious charges, but still faces up to 20 years in prison. But the judge citing Combs' history of violence and past illegal conduct has declined to release Combs as he awaits sentencing.

Joining us now is CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson. Joey, yesterday after the verdict came there was some thinking amongst legal analysts that he could be released. Were you surprised by the decision by this judge?

[10:45:00]

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST AND CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Pamela, good morning to you. Not surprised, and I would certainly concur with that thinking because the judge could have very well done that, right? There's a couple of things the judge could consider. Let's talk about from the defense perspective. There's two real things.

Number one is, is he a flight risk? Do you really believe that he would be a flight risk pending sentence, right, especially when he was acquitted of a charge that can keep him in jail for life, knowing the consequences of trying to flee from the court's jurisdiction? I think not. Number two, is he a danger to the community? You know, look, there was conduct that certainly that was raised during the trial. The tape was awful as it relates to the beating of Cassie Ventura, but you can argue what is the danger that he poses. So, on those -- from that scenario, I don't see why the judge would keep him in if there are, and the law says, Pamela, if there's any condition or combination of conditions that could ensure his return to court, and there certainly are, restricting your passport, limiting where you can travel. So, I get it.

From a prosecution's perspective however. Listen, the judge certainly could have concluded. He has certainly exposure in terms of him being sentenced. And there's an argument, prosecutors say it's four years. You know, the defense says it's two. They'll make the argument in terms of what he's eligible for. But if a judge is thinking about giving him two years, you keep him in. He's being sentenced sometime in October, presumably, he'll accrue more time and he'll get credit for the 10 months he's in. He serves, you know, a number of other months and he's out. So, that could have been the judge's thinking as well. But the judge certainly would've been well within his discretion yesterday, Pamela, to release him.

BROWN: And the judge has proposed that October sentencing, but also said he is willing to move it up at the defense's request. What kind of sentence do you think Combs will end up facing, and do you think that his past jail time will factor in?

JACKSON: So, I think without question, in terms of the past jail time, you're always going to get credit for time you've already served and he served the 10 months, and that'll be the calculus. I think there'll be certainly an argument between prosecutors who want more time.

You know, what happens in federal court is the judge is allowed to consider what's called, quote/unquote, "relevant conduct." So, even conduct for which you're not charged, but conduct, which is, you know, somewhat bad, right, the judge could evaluate that into the mix to give you a higher sentence. So, there'll be an argument from prosecutors as to all this relevant conduct and all the things we heard about what he did during the trial and how the judge should be more severe with him. And from a defense perspective, you'll hear about the fact that this is a first offense. You'll hear about the fact that he was acquitted of the RICO charge, that is the racketeering that have -- could have kept him in jail for life. You'll hear about the fact that the jury did not buy the sex trafficking, which would've carried a minimum of 15 years. And on that basis, judge, we should be here to sentence him, for which the jury, which a system we respect, really found him guilty of. And if you do that, the calculation would be more along the lines of two years as we look at the counts there.

And so, it's always up to discretion of a judge, Pamela, no matter what anybody says. But I think the calculated guideline range, which is from 21 months to 27 months is reasonable and accurate, and I think certainly that's something that the judge could adhere to.

BROWN: Just very, very quickly. The fact that the judge is keeping him behind bars until sentencing, how does that bode for his actual sentencing? You know, you have to wonder if it'll be maybe more serious than it may otherwise have been if he was released. I don't know what you think.

JACKSON: So, you know, Pamela, that's true and that's a great question, but it may not be, right? Because if you're thinking about sentencing him to even the guideline range for which defense attorneys have, and I keep mentioning guideline range very briefly. What happens in the federal system is they calculate the offense specifically, what are you actually convicted of, and they match it against your criminal history. There's a chart and there's a certain amount of months in the federal system you get, and they call it a guideline range.

Now, the guideline range, again, for prosecutors, is much higher than it is for defense attorneys. But ultimately, the fact that the judge kept him in could very well mean he's done 10 months, his guideline range is two years and change anyway, if I keep him in and I sentence him in October, even if I give him a couple of years, you do 85 percent of your time in the federal system, he would be out, right, presumably sometime next year.

BROWN: Got you.

JACKSON: So, it's not reading into it that, oh, he kept him in. He's going to slam him at time of trial -- excuse me, at time of sentencing, I don't read that into it. I think it'll be fair, reasonable, and objective, but there'll be arguments on both sides for sure.

BROWN: Joey Jackson, thanks so much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:50:00]

BLITZER: An Israeli official now tells CNN Israel has accepted the latest Gaza ceasefire and hostage release proposal detailed by President Trump. Hamas says it's reviewing the deal right now, but it's still unclear whether Hamas will accept it. But health officials in Gaza say more than 80 Palestinians today were killed as Israel is intensifying it strikes across the Gaza Strip.

Joining us now is former senior adviser to President Biden, Amos Hochstein. Amos, thanks very much for coming in. A source familiar with this ceasefire plan that's on the table right now tell CNN that Israeli forces would withdraw from most of the Gaza territory, but that it would remain in the -- what's called the Philadelphi Corridor along the border between Gaza and Egypt.

What do you make of this? Do you think this is something Hamas is likely to agree to because Israel, according to an Israeli official who spoke to CNN, has agreed?

AMOS HOCHSTEIN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN, FORMER MIDDLE EAST NEGOTIATOR AND MANAGING PARTNER, TWG GLOBAL: Well, I think that we have to differentiate, there are two phases to this ceasefire that we think is coming together. One is the 60 days in which 10 hostages would come home after -- over 680 days or so, 660 days or so, and prisoners released.

[10:55:00]

During that 60 days, we negotiate the final end of the conflict in Gaza. So -- and then, there are questions whether or not they're going to continue negotiating after the 60 days, or you go back to fighting if you're not there yet. This is pretty much where we were in January, which was a phase deal, phase one, certain level of hostages come out and then the remainder come out after that. They never went to the phase two. We had six months of death and carnage on both sides and now we're back here.

So, whether or not Israel withdraws from most of Gaza is really going to be a question of what comes next, and if Israel agrees with the both political, civil, and military administration of Gaza afterwards. I don't think that we're there yet.

BLITZER: So, it's still a work in progress. We'll see how they do. Let me turn, while I have you, Amos, to Iran. Yesterday, we reported that Iran's president approved a law halting all cooperation with the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency. Today, the country's foreign minister said they're still committed to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, NPT. How do you re read all of this? Is this commitment to the Non-Proliferation Treaty enough? What do you think?

HOCHSTEIN: Well, I think first of all, it's important we were all questioning whether or not Iran was going to walk away from the NPT. And I think it's important that they're staying in.

BLITZER: If they stay in, they will allow inspectors to come in from the IAEA and make sure that these nuclear facilities are clean?

HOCHSTEIN: Not necessarily. So, that's why I think we're also hearing that there may be some talks coming on nuclear issues between the Trump administration and the Iranians potentially next week. They need -- regardless of the strike, the strike sets Iran back. How far back? We don't know yet and we won't know for a while. What's important is whether you got there with a strike or not, is that you have to have a blueprint of an agreement, a nuclear agreement that allows for inspectors to be in there, because if you don't have inspectors there, we don't have eyes and ears, we don't know if they're reconstituting a program, if they're going faster, if they're cheating. Iran has a long history of cheating on the deals anyway. So, without any inspectors, you can only imagine what would happen there.

Relying solely on the intelligence that Israel clearly has in Iran and the United States to be able to see what they're doing is just not enough. You have to reach a deal. A strike is one step. And people have different views on it. I think we -- most importantly, we took them back, but we now need a deal.

BLITZER: Let me get your thoughts also on another very sensitive but critically important issue, progress on what's called the Abraham Accords. You remember that was negotiated during the first Trump administration. Got to give Trump credit for those Abraham Accords. It normalized relations between Israel and several Arab countries, full peaceful relations.

But all of that is stalled in the wake of the October 7th terrorist attack by Hamas against Israel. If we see a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas now, how realistic is it to think that progress could start again in expanding the Abraham Accords to countries, let's say, like Lebanon? You worked closely with the Lebanese government when you were in office. How close is Lebanon to joining the Abraham Accords, and for that matter, neighboring Syria after Bashar al-Assad is now gone?

HOCHSTEIN: Well, I'll tell you, I think that some of the reasons for the timing of October 7th massacre was because we were just very close weeks away from a deal with -- of normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia. And so, the parameters for normalization expanding, the normalization circle between Israel and the Arab neighbors is there. So, I think we're at an extraordinary opportunity. Israel's most important threats to its security are either gone or significantly diminished. This is a moment in time that should be captured. It can't be done without a ceasefire in Gaza.

So, I think, as you've appropriately said, the ceasefire in Gaza, not this one for 60 days, but the permanent end of war that has to come after the 60 days, if that happens, I think it opens the door. But I don't think we should fool ourselves that this will be easy. And there may -- it may mean that we don't go straight to normalization, but there are non-aggression pacts and agreements that can be reached, security agreements that can be reached as stepping stones towards that.

But I think there's no reason to believe that a deal between digital and Saudi Arabia cannot be achieved very, very quickly over the next 12, 18 months.

BLITZER: And I recently had dinner with some friends from Lebanon who speak very highly of you, what you did when you were in office to improve relations, to ease the tension between Israel and Lebanon. Do you think Lebanon is likely to join the Abraham Accords?

HOCHSTEIN: I think it's going to take some time. I think we have to get to a few things. One, Lebanon needs the military support from the United States for its army in order to finish the disarming of Hezbollah and get them out of the -- of -- and weaken them politically in Lebanon. We need to get the border strained, which I think I left -- when I left, we were very close to delineating a land boundary between Israel and Lebanon for the first time since the existence of the two countries.

If you do that, I think we can --

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