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Interview With Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN); Pentagon Signs Multimillion-Dollar Contract With Elon Musk; Supreme Court Allows Mass Firings at Education Department; MAGA Anger Continues Over Epstein Files. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired July 15, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:08]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: We begin this hour here in Washington where President Trump reportedly is now personally joining efforts to try to ease the outrage over the Jeffrey Epstein case.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Yes, in fact, sources are telling us that the president is urging his aides to let the story die down as some top officials in his administration absorb the fury of loyal MAGA supporters.

CNN's Kevin Liptak is at the White House for us.

So, Kevin, the FBI deputy director, Dan Bongino, had this major falling out with Attorney General Pam Bondi over all of this. He's back at work now. What is the White House saying this morning?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, the real hope and expectation in this building is that this will eventually just sputter out, that the president's base of supporters who are so outraged about this will eventually move on, and like so many past Trump controversies it will essentially just dissolve into the ether.

And they do seem to be having some success on that front with at least one subset of the outraged base, which is people who actually work for the president. The deputy FBI director, Dan Bongino, after last week threatening to quit over all of this and not showing up to work on Friday, was at the office yesterday, seeming to have worked this out with the president in part because of some massaging that took place over the weekend by allies of both of these men, including the vice president, J.D. Vance.

So, Bongino back on the job now, although we should say Bongino has said in the past he is not particularly fond of the position that he's in. And he does appear to want to maintain some credibility with the audience that he cultivated over the last several years of his podcast, where he espoused some of these conspiracies theories about Jeffrey Epstein.

And I think at the end of the day, it is that question of credibility that's at stake here for Bongino, but also for President Trump, who himself cultivated many conspiracies with his supporters and now appears unable or unwilling to promise the answers that his supporters wanted when they elected him president.

Now, we are hearing from one person who is very close to the president, his daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, suggesting that this may not be the end of the story on the Epstein files. Listen to what she says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARA TRUMP, FORMER CO-CHAIR, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: There needs to be more transparency on this. And I think that that will happen. I mean, look, I don't know what truly exists there, but I know that this is something that's important to the president as well. He's going to want to set things right as well.

So I believe that there will probably be more coming on this. And I believe anything that they are able to release that doesn't damage any witnesses or anyone underage or anything like that, I believe they will probably try to get out sooner rather than later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: So you hear her saying that there may be more coming out on this. That was not at all the gist of the Justice Department memo that set all of this off last week, when essentially they were saying that the case here is closed.

And when you talk to officials at the White House or at the Justice Department, they don't say necessarily that they expect to release more information here. Lara Trump clearly saying that the president is attuned to all of this, that he wants to put more information out.

I think, when you talk to some close Trump allies, they are concerned that the president's attempt to dismiss or diminish this could potentially make matters worse, Pam.

BROWN: All right, Kevin Liptak live for us from the White House, thanks so much, Kevin -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Interesting.

This morning, other news we're following, the Trump administration is taking direct action after another key decision from the U.S. Supreme Court, the justices ruling that the president can indeed proceed with his plan to try to dismantle the Education Department with mass layoffs. About 1,400 employees were let go in April before a lower court paused the layoffs.

Today, those employees are being told they will be laid off in two weeks.

Sheria Smith is the president of the union that represents thousands of workers in the Department of Education.

Thanks so much, Sheria, for joining us.

Let me get your reaction first to the Supreme Court ruling green- lighting the administration's plan to fire not only you, but along with 1,400 other employees.

SHERIA SMITH, PRESIDENT, AFGE LOCAL 252: I have a range of emotions, Wolf.

First one is disappointment. I'm a lawyer by trade and I live for Supreme Court decisions, at least to have reasoning. So to have the six justices just allow this to happen without even explaining their decision is extremely disappointing.

Then I go into anger, anger since the beginning of this administration by the misrepresentation about what we actually do. There's so many statements about returning education to the states. But, Wolf, I was a teacher. Education curriculum, teacher quality testing has always been with the states.

[11:05:00]

What our department does and did was fund school districts, fund colleges, fund schools, and fund American citizens who are pursuing their education. And it is extremely anger-inducing that this misrepresentation of what we do and how important our work is perpetuating and is not being corrected even by the highest court of our land.

And then I go to sadness. I'm a recipient or product of Title I schools. I'm a recipient of Pell Grants. And I think about there will not be future me's. People who are coming from working-class families who want a different way of life, who want to improve their life choices through education, this administration is making it harder.

We're already seeing that because they have dismantled or laid our people off. School districts, Title I schools are not getting the grants that they need. Colleges are not getting the medical research that many people depend on. College students are not getting financial aid, and all because our people are out of work.

And the students that are at schools currently are not receiving the protections of the Office for Civil Rights to make sure that our tax dollars -- that schools that receive our tax dollars are doing right by them. And so that makes me incredibly sad, and incredibly sad that this -- that our highest court is allowing this to happen.

BLITZER: Do you know, Sheria, how you and your colleagues were actually selected for termination?

SMITH: No. And that's what makes -- that's what's so infuriating about this whole process. And the federal government, certainly an executive has the ability to decide if there's going to be layoffs. But, normally, if there are layoffs in the federal government, it is because there was a budget shortfall or it's because the services that people once did, they're no longer needed.

That is not the case in the U.S. Department of Education, which is why, as soon as we were laid off, you had failures in FAFSA, FAFSA, which is still relied on by American citizens. There's no rhyme or reason to these layoffs. We do not know why this administration laid off veteran high-performing employees and kept others.

We don't know why, two weeks before the layoffs, this administration moved people around to divisions that weren't going to be impacted by the layoffs, when everyone else that they formerly worked with were impacted by the layoffs. It is not based on performance. It is not based on seniority.

As a union president, we have asked for those explanations over and over again. To this day, this administration has not been able to provide an explanation for these layoffs, but to reiterate that the president told us to do it.

BLITZER: And I know you had an excellent reputation at the Department of Education.

The Trump administration says dismantling the Education Department will allow the control to be transferred back to the states, ultimately benefiting children. That's their argument. How do you respond to that?

SMITH: Again, this is a misrepresentation of what we do. The work that they say that is going to be transferred back to the states is not work that we ever performed.

It was work that we all -- that states always did. What is so interesting about this case is that the states were the plaintiffs in this case. The state said, hey, bring these people back. We don't do this work. We need these people back at the U.S. Department of Education to help -- to allow us to do our jobs.

It is the state attorney generals that filed this lawsuit. So how paternalistic is it for this administration to say, oh, this is good for the states, when the states are saying, this is not good for us? That is why they filed this lawsuit. This is why they wanted our people back at work.

BLITZER: Good point.

There's still a legal challenge, as you know, that's playing out in the lower courts. Are you optimistic at all, Sheria, that your job could be reinstated?

SMITH: You know, I am. I absolutely believe that this administration and unfortunately this court decision was meant to demoralize not just me, but my members in our union.

But what is important to note is that this is not a final decision. This is just injunctive relief. And certainly we have the opportunity to go back to lower courts and get the relief that not only we are looking forward to be reinstated, but that the American public and our American students need.

Again, the states are saying, because we are not at work, they are not able to serve their citizens. And if we are not listening to the states about what their needs are, what are we doing here?

[11:10:00]

BLITZER: Very quickly, before I let you go, Sheria, do you think you were fired because you are president of the union representing these Department of Education employees?

SMITH: You know, yes, I would say not just -- every union representative who also happened to be a Department of Education employee was fired as well.

So, certainly, retaliation is at top of mind. Every office -- because there's no rhyme or reason about what offices they decided to keep and those they decided to get rid of, every office that contained a union representative happens to be offices that they got rid of, even if those offices were the most productive and the highest-performing offices, like my office, the Dallas, Texas, office, in the Office for Civil Rights, which contained two union leaders.

BLITZER: Sheria Smith, thanks so much for joining us and good luck to you down the road. We will continue our conversations.

SMITH: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Wolf, still ahead: A week after Elon Musk's A.I. chatbot began spewing antisemitic responses, Grok makes a lucrative deal with the Defense Department.

BLITZER: Plus, this: murder, greed, corruption, and a stolen masterpiece, the new spy novel from the number one "New York Times" bestselling author Dan Silva. He's my guest this hour. We have got lots to discuss.

You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:16:07]

BROWN: As the Trump White House deals with the fallout from its handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case, the backlash is growing even among some of the loudest voices in conservative media.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: It's not about just a pedophile ring and all that. It's about who governs us, right? And that's why it's not going to go away. You're going to lose 10 percent of the MAGA movement.

ANDREW SCHULZ, ACTOR AND COMEDIAN: It's insulting our intelligence. Like, obviously, the intelligence community is trying to cover it up. Obviously, the Trump administration is trying to cover up.

TUCKER CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS ANCHOR: The current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Conservative radio host Jason Rantz joins us now.

Hi, Jason. Good to see you.

So, look, the president's staunchest supporters have pushed this Epstein story for years. Even the president himself has, right? And now Trump is telling them not to waste their time on it. How are your listeners responding and why is it striking such a chord with an MAGA movement?

JASON RANTZ, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: Look, I think there's two separate issues here, right? It's the MAGA base, which I think does have an interest in getting to the bottom of this or at least some of the issues that they see.

I think initially they were connected to this because really there was a confluence of a whole bunch of issues, but the biggest one having to do with perceived elites having this kind of power of abuse over people and finally them getting their comeuppance. And certainly Jeffrey Epstein was an evil person who deserved to be caught and shame on him for getting away for as long as he did with his crimes.

But, ultimately, I think what ended up happening here is that the MAGA base was told something by this administration and the handling was so poor from Pam Bondi initially. Go several weeks ago, where you had the social media influencers at the White House with the Epstein files, which turned out not to be Epstein files.

There might be very valid reasons why all the information is not yet being released, but they did not handle this correctly from the beginning. And I think Donald Trump understands that and he's trying to walk this back a little bit to placate some in the base. I still don't think that they're quite hitting it the right way because there's still a lot of people who just, frankly, don't trust anything around this particular issue.

But I should note that the anger is not really at Donald Trump. There's some, there's no doubt. But I think right now the anger is at Pam Bondi, which is why over the weekend you saw the president come out so forcefully in her defense via TRUTH Social.

BROWN: Why do you think there's not more anger toward the president? I mean, Donald Trump is her boss.

RANTZ: Yes, I think, well, one, there's just a lot of loyalty to the president. I mean, we're talking about the base, and the base of any movement generally doesn't just turn on the person that they have been loyal to this entire time.

There may be some disappointment, but I think ultimately there might still be a lot of trust that ultimately we're going to get some of this information. I think right now some of the reported infighting within this administration between Pam Bondi and both Kash Patel and Dan Bongino gets to that. There is an eagerness to get the information. They believe it's maybe

working itself out. And you have already seen over the course of the last couple of days some of the president's loudest allies starting to walk back some of the criticism here and basically saying, look, I trust this administration. They're going to ultimately get the information out there.

And I generally hold that same trust too. I have never been all that interested in the Jeffrey Epstein controversies and conspiracy theories, but obviously it's a really important story. There might be a very valid reason why we're not getting all the information out there just yet, which could be tied to protecting some of the victims.

It could be tied to protecting people who maybe were connected to Jeffrey Epstein who had literally nothing to do with any of the crimes. And I think that that is a reasonable thing to withhold information on. And, ultimately, there might be parts of the investigation that are ongoing, connecting people who are in fact still out there, who are committing crimes, that perhaps releasing this information too soon could jeopardize that investigation.

[11:20:00]

So, ultimately, certainly, I'm willing to wait. And I think there are a lot of people who are willing to wait, but there is not a whole lot of patience. And I think that that was a problem that this administration created a few weeks ago.

BROWN: Right. And DOJ says, look, there's no client list, he died by suicide. The president is now reportedly urging aides to let the story die down. He wants it to go away.

But as someone in the conservative mediasphere, do you think that that strategy is realistic? Do you see those voices quieting down and just accepting what DOJ released?

RANTZ: I don't know if they will ever accept what DOJ released. But I do think that ultimately this starts to die down. This is not a storyline that's going to last much longer than probably this week, which is precisely why strategically Democrats all of a sudden have shown interest in this.

And now they're demanding that the files be released. They're only doing that -- they're doing it in bad faith. They're doing it because they think it's going to create more distrust within the movement. Ultimately, I think that actually hurts them, because I don't know how many MAGA base members are going to say, yes, I support what Pramila Jayapal and Eric Swalwell are saying. I'm on their side.

So, actually, I think they're hurting their own cause. They would have been better just to set back and let this just unfold. But they decided to get involved. And I think, weirdly, that's pushing people away from wanting to talk about this as much as maybe they otherwise would have.

BROWN: Very quickly, what do you think the fate is of Bondi and Bongino and Patel with all of this?

RANTZ: So I think in the short term, nothing happens. I don't see Pam Bondi going anywhere. I'm a little bit concerned about Dan Bongino because he takes this very seriously. He takes this to heart. And I think he feels a little bit betrayed, but ultimately I think he's going to do what's best for this country.

And right now, hopefully, it means he's staying in that position. I'm a fan of Dan. I'm a friend of Dan's and I want him to stay.

BROWN: All right, Jason Rantz, thank you so much for coming on.

RANTZ: Thanks. Appreciate it.

BROWN: Wolf.

BLITZER: And still ahead; Beyonce's unreleased music and secret set list stolen. We're now hearing the 911 call as an urgent search is under way for the thief.

Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:26:43]

BLITZER: New this morning, Elon Musk and the Pentagon make a deal. The billionaire's A.I. company has won a $200 million contract that will let the government use Musk's A.I. chatbot, Grok.

It's notable because just, last week, Grok posted an antisemitic rant praising Adolf Hitler, believe it or not, praising Adolf Hitler, or even suggested a Holocaust-like response to hatred against white people would be effective.

Joining us now, Congressman Steve Cohen. He's a Democrat from Tennessee.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

I know you wrote a letter to Musk demanding an explanation for how Grok, his A.I. engine, made these totally antisemitic posts. Have you heard that?

REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): We haven't heard back. And I'm kind of surprised we haven't, because his Colossus computer is in Memphis in my district. Quite a bit of controversy about whether it emits pollutants that hurt the people's health in that area and that's something we have to be concerned about.

But Musk's public response is that this was simply his making it less woke and he put some information into the computer to make it less woke. It not only made it less woke. It made it disgusting and shameful and really it was pro-Nazi. And it was shocking that he done such a thing. He put in this 4chan, which has got a lot of right-wing antisemitic type material. And that puts out a bad result and it lets us know that these computers are not geniuses. They are as good as the person who puts the material in. And in Musk's case, it's a guy who gave a "Heil Hitler" salute one day when he got overly excited at a rally and went into his full-tilt Nazi wave.

So we have got to be concerned about the future of what information we accept as being true and just independent. It all goes back to the source. And the source in this case is somebody who is real suspect and was pretty much thrown out of the Trump administration.

BROWN: Right.

And just to follow up with you on that because you're raising concerns about Grok and what it put out about the Holocaust, now it's been -- the company that owns Grok has been awarded this $200 million contract to help with national security. What do you think about that?

COHEN: Well, I think it's a different issue, but at the same time it does concern you with their objectivity and the data that they put in. And Grok will have information in there that may not be what's necessarily right down the line, but what Musk wants it to be to influence national security.

And I don't think that Musk should be involved in determining what materials are used to analyze national security considerations. I'm on the Intelligence Committee now. That's a very, very important, important aspect of American government's protection of the homeland and of our citizenry, and we're at threat on many, many fronts.

And to have Musk be a person who determines when we're at threat and why and how is questionable. And it shows, with what he put into the computer concerning 4chan, he will put in things there that could be -- also affect our defense capabilities.