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The Situation Room
Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY), Is Interviewed About Democratic Efforts To Block Texas Redistricting; Montana Manhunt For Accused Killer Enters Fourth Day; Special Counsel's Office Investigates Former Trump Prosecutor Jack Smith. Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired August 04, 2025 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, a political battle in the Lone Star State. Texas Democrats fleeing the state in an attempt to derail the GOP's new redistricting plan. Now the state's governor threatening to strip their House seats and floating felony charges.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Serious developments indeed. We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer with Pamela Brown, and you're in The Situation Room.
We begin this hour with Texas Democrats scattering across the country right now to try to deny the Republican-controlled legislature in Texas a vote on new congressional maps. GOP Governor Greg Abbott now threatening to remove those Democratic members who have fled the state from office.
BROWN: I asked Texas Democratic Representative Ann Johnson about those threats from state officials last hour. Listen to her response.
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REP. ANN JOHNSON (D-TX): Corn Break is an extraordinary act. It is not anything I take lightly. It is almost the last tool that I have available to us in the Texas Constitution, placed here by the founding fathers for the minority party, when you know that the majority has gone off the rails and is doing something in violation of every constituency. And so I don't take this lightly, but I also know that the threats that they're making just shows how desperate they are.
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BROWN: Democrats argue the proposed districts are gerrymandered to boost Republicans' chances of winning greater control of Congress in next year's midterm elections. Abbott moments ago called that claim, quote, totally bogus.
BLITZER: What happens in Texas could have a huge, sweeping impact on the balance of power here in Washington. The GOP-proposed maps -- the GOP-proposed maps could eliminate five Democratic seats in Texas alone, and in doing so provide Republicans with a wider margin to pass President Donald Trump's agenda following next year's midterm elections.
Joining us now to discuss this and more, the House Democratic leader, Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Leader Jeffries, thanks so much for joining us. I know you recently traveled to Austin, Texas, to meet with the Democratic lawmakers there about this redistricting proposal. We've been -- we've seen Texas Democrats try to use these quorum breaks before, only for them to fail, like back in 2003 and then in 2021. How will this time be any different?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: Well, in the 2021 quorum break, actually, I would argue that Texas Democrats were successful in forcing Republicans to walk away from some of the more extreme parts of the voter suppression law that were being contemplated at the time.
They still moved forward with their efforts to try to suppress the possibility of a free and fair election in Texas. This is what they do. But the Texas Democrats were successful in reducing the extreme nature of what was being proposed.
But this moment does require, you know, an extraordinary response because this is an extraordinary act that Republicans have been ordered to undertake to try to gerrymander the Texas congressional map as part of an effort to rig the midterm elections, Wolf. That's what this is all about, because Donald Trump, House Republicans and the Texas Republican Party, they're all running scared because they have failed the American people.
BLITZER: The Texas governor, as you know, Leader Jeffries, we're talking about Greg Abbott, he's threatened to remove Texas House Democrats who actually left the state from their positions because it -- it, quote, amounts to an abandonment that he says or forfeiture of elected state office. Governor Abbott also says Texas Democrats may have violated what he calls bribery laws. How do you respond to all of this?
JEFFRIES: The Republican governor of Texas is out of his mind. There is no basis to charge these House Texas Democrats who have refused righteously to, at the moment, vote on an extraordinary map that would hurt their constituents that they are privileged and sworn to represent right now. Governor Abbott is making idle threats. He is all hat, no cattle.
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BLITZER: As you know, Leader Jeffries, these Texas Democrats who've traveled, they've traveled to several Democratic-controlled states, including your state of New York. That's where Governor Kathy Hochul only moments ago said she's exploring, quote, and I'm quoting her now, every option to redraw our state congressional lines as soon as possible. Listen to what she exactly said. Listen to this.
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GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D-NY): I'm tired of fighting this fight with my hand tied behind my back. With all due respect to the good government groups, politics is a political process. And to think that we're going to do this with a purity test. But I cannot ignore that this, the playing field has changed dramatically. And shame on us if we ignore that fact and cling tight to the vestiges of the past. That era's over. Donald Trump eliminated that forever.
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BLITZER: And as you know, Leader Jeffries, more Republican states are now looking at potentially engaging in this redistricting as well. Do you worry this could be a never-ending cycle of redistricting across the entire country?
JEFFRIES: First of all, Wolf, we appreciate the strong leadership being shown by Governor Kathy Hochul, Governor Gavin Newsom, Governor J.B. Pritzker, and governors all across the country, because this is an unprecedented moment that America and the world find ourselves in at this particular period of time. Donald Trump and the Republican Party have launched an all-out, unprecedented assault on the economy, on health care, on veterans, on farmers, on everyday Americans, on the rule of law, on law-abiding immigrant families, and, of course, on democracy itself. It's an all-hands-on-deck moment for us.
That means House Democrats, Senate Democrats, Democratic governors, Democratic members of the state legislature, Democratic attorney generals, but most importantly, the American people. All of us need to show up and stand up and speak up for an America, actually, that is enlightened and inclusive and lifts people up, as opposed to the America that we're in right now, where Donald Trump and Republicans are determined to tear people down.
BLITZER: When you were in Austin, Texas, Leader Jeffries, last week, you argued that Texas Republicans, in your words, at the urging of President Donald Trump, were trying to rig elections by allowing politicians to choose their own voters through this redistricting proposal. What do you say to the argument that Democrats would be guilty of the same charge if they gerrymandered in so-called blue states, Democratic-led states?
JEFFRIES: What Democrats would be doing in response is to make sure that there is one fair national map so that the people of this country will have the opportunity to make a decision in November of next year in deciding who should actually serve in the majority in the United States House of Representatives. We think that Republicans are scared to death that they are on the brink of losing the House of Representatives. This one big, ugly bill that they passed into law rips away health care from the American people, steals food from the mouths of children, hurts everyday Americans in order to reward their billionaire donors with massive tax breaks, and they've broken their fundamental promise to lower the high cost of living.
Costs aren't going down in America. Costs are going up. Job creation is going down, and unemployment is going up as Donald Trump and Republicans are crashing the economy in real time. We're not afraid, as Democrats, to make our case to the American people that we will lower the high cost of living. We will fix our broken health care system. We will clean up corruption so we can deliver a government that actually works for the American people and is not a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, and for the billionaires.
We're prepared to take that case directly to the American people. Republicans are trying to rig the congressional maps because they don't want to have this fight on the merits.
BLITZER: While I have you, Leader Jeffries, I want to turn to another important subject. Your counterpart in the U.S. Senate, Chuck Schumer, a man you know well, earlier this morning he called for the firing of the White House National Economic Council Director, Kevin Hassett. After Hassett defended President Donald Trump's decision to axe the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics following the other day's very disappointing jobs report. Do you think Hassett should be fired?
[11:10:16]
JEFFRIES: I don't think Hassett is qualified to be part of this administration, but that in fact is the case as it relates to so many members of the Trump administration. This is the most unqualified administration in American history, which is why the whole thing is a disaster. They failed to make life better for the American people. In fact, they're making life worse, making life more expensive.
These Trump tariffs, these Republican-backed tariffs, are increasing costs on everyday Americans by thousands of dollars per year. And now you see the job market collapsing in the country, Trump continuing to destabilize our economic system, and they're driving us toward a recession. All of them are unqualified to be serving the American people right now.
BLITZER: On another sensitive issue, while I have you, Congressman, on the war between Israel and Hamas and the worsening crisis unfolding in Gaza right now, your Democratic colleague, Congressman Ro Khanna of California, is now circulating a letter urging the White House to recognize a Palestinian state. Are you opening -- are you open to signing on to that?
JEFFRIES: I haven't seen the letter or talked to Ro, but here's what I'll say about the situation. The humanitarian crisis right now is unconscionable, and we've got to surge humanitarian aid and food into Gaza to prevent starvation from children and innocent civilians who have been suffering in this war zone.
At the same period of time, we've got to make sure that we can get every single hostage out and return to their families in Israel, and we need to restore the ceasefire that Donald Trump inherited from Joe Biden but has allowed to be broken so that we can establish a permanent path toward a just and lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinian people.
And the only way to actually achieve that with some permanence is to make sure that there's a two-state solution, a safe and secure Israel living side by side with a Palestinian state that allows the Palestinian people to pursue and experience dignity, prosperity, and self-determination.
BLITZER: So I hear you saying basically, correct me if I'm wrong, Leader Jeffries, that you would support a U.S. decision to support a new independent Palestinian state.
JEFFRIES: What I support is a two-state solution. That has to be negotiated by all parties. But what we have to do right now is to make sure the ceasefire is restored, that humanitarian assistance is surged and sustained into Gaza. There's an ongoing crisis right now. That has to be dealt with, and of course we have to get the hostages returned. But we all have to commit ourselves to a legitimate, robust, authentic process of bringing a just and lasting peace to the region.
And the only way to achieve that, in my view, is a two-state solution. Israel and a Palestinian state, that has to be negotiated. United States leadership will be required in order to bring that about.
BLITZER: All right. The House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries of New York, thanks as usual for joining us. We always appreciate having you here in The Situation Room. Pamela?
JEFFRIES: Thank you, Wolf.
BROWN: All right, still ahead right here in The Situation Room, the prosecutor who led two federal criminal probes into President Trump, now under investigation himself, what the watchdog agency created to patrol government ethics is accusing him of.
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BLITZER: And an urgent manhunt underway right now in Montana. Police searching for the man accused of killing four people at a bar, warning that he is armed and extremely dangerous. Stay with us. You're in The Situation Room.
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BLITZER: Happening now, a manhunt in Montana for an accused killer. Authorities there have locked down part of a national forest as they look for the suspect. Only minutes ago, we learned the search has now been expanded. Michael Brown -- Paul Brown is accused of walking into a bar Friday morning and gunning down -- gunning down these four people. You see their pictures on the screen. All of them lived in the town of Anaconda. And so far, it's not clear what led up to the killings.
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AUSTIN KNUDSEN, MONTANA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We can confirm that it was a rifle. At this point, I'm not going to give out a bunch of more information about that. We do know the individual had access to firearms. We believe he was probably still armed and dangerous. From what I have gathered, it sounds like he was a regular at this -- at this establishment. He literally lived next door. I think it's likely that -- likely that he knew the bartender and these patrons, which makes this even more heinous.
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BLITZER: All right, let's go live to CNN's Julia Vargas Jones, who's monitoring all of this for us. We're now, Julia, in what, the fourth day of this manhunt. What are you learning?
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've now expanded that search area, Wolf. They've locked down not just parts of the Beaverhead Deer Lodge National Forest, but also the area around Stumptown Road, north of Barker Lake. This is a heavily wooded area, part of western Montana, that represents its own challenges.
[11:20:14]
You know, in that search perimeter, a resident familiar with the area told CNN there's just a thousand of places to hide. But authorities say that every cabin, every hunting site in that area will be searched, and that's local, state, and federal agencies, including the FBI, who are working on land and air to find Brown.
There's now a reward of $7,500 for any information that will lead to locating him. He was last seen west of Anaconda, and that's that security camera footage that we saw there of Brown fleeing the Owl Bar just after the shooting. He's barefoot, wearing only the dark shorts. But authorities believe that that changed quite quickly. Take a listen.
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KNUDSEN: The vehicle he ended up grabbing was loaded full of equipment. It was not his vehicle. It was a stolen vehicle, but there was camping equipment in it. We believe there was some clothing in it. So at this point, we have every reason to believe the suspect is fully clothed, shoes on his feet, able to get around. We are acting under the assumption that he is alive, well-armed, and extremely dangerous.
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JONES: We're also learning, Wolf, that he is a U.S. Army veteran. He was part of an armored vehicle crew from 2001 to 2005 and spent most of his last year in the Army deployed to Iraq from 2004 to 2005. He later joined the Montana National Guard in 2006 and left the military service in 2009 as a sergeant. Now, we've spoken to his niece, Claire Boyle. She told CNN that her uncle struggled with mental health while he was in the Army and that he just wasn't the same after his service. She said that he got worse after the passing of his parents and expressed remorse and heartbreak for the families of those victims. You see there, those victims have been identified now.
That's 59-year-old Daniel Edwin Baillie, 70-year-old David Allen Leach, 74-year-old Tony Wayne Palm, and 64-year-old Nancy Loretta Kelley. Kelley was an accomplished nurse, Wolf, who worked with cancer patients and had just started bartending at the Owl Bar in her retirement. Wolf?
BLITZER: And our deepest, deepest condolences to their families. Julia Vargas Jones, thank you very much for that report. Pamela?
BROWN: Very sad. Well, the former special counsel who led two investigations of President Trump is now facing his own investigation. The independent federal agency led by a Trump loyalist says it's investigating Jack Smith for alleged violations of the Hatch Act. That law applies to federal employees and prohibits certain political activities while on duty. So let's bring in CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid here in The Situation Room. Tell us more about this investigation, Paula.
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So this is really unusual that you would investigate a prosecutor for violations of the Hatch Act. The Hatch Act is supposed to deter federal employees or anyone working with a federally funded program from using their posts to influence an election. But this is a guideline. If you violate it, it's not a law. It's just a guideline, and the worst punishment you could face is potential removal from your federal post.
You may remember this came up a lot during the first Trump administration. Thirteen different employees had some Hatch Act issues, including Kellyanne Conway, and it was suggested by the same office that she be removed from her post. She was not. Former President Biden's spokeswoman also got a warning letter for talking about mega-MAGA from the podium.
What's unusual here is Jack Smith is no longer in government, and you're talking about pursuing a prosecutor for bringing a case well over a year before the election. And, of course, those cases continued until President Trump was re-elected, and then they were dismissed. But it's not clear how the Hatch Act would apply here.
There's a lot of questions about this special prosecutor -- this special office, because, well, it's called the Office of Special Counsel, like Jack Smith was a special counsel. Jack Smith was a special counsel in terms of trying to take politically sensitive matters out of the Justice Department to have independence.
Historically, this is a different office. It's also supposed to be independent, but there are questions about how independent it is under President Trump, because it's currently run by a loyalist. But we've seen kind of a pattern here of doing, like, quasi-investigations into pet issues of the president and his allies.
You see this with Ed Martin. He's reviewing former President Biden's use of an auto pen. Here, you know, this looks like Jack Smith is being investigated, but it's nowhere near as significant as the investigations that the former president faced.
BROWN: All right, Paula Reid, important context here. Thank you. Wolf?
BLITZER: She really knows the law.
BROWN: She does.
[11:24:43]
BLITZER: Other news we're following right now, coming up next, Israel now considering expanding the war in Gaza as hostage and ceasefire negotiations stall and the hunger crisis worsens.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Happening now, the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is considering expanding Israeli military operations in Gaza as a way of trying to free the remaining Israeli hostages that according to an Israeli official. Netanyahu has also asked the Red Cross for help in getting aid to those Israeli hostages. The request came after Hamas released this video showing the hostage Evyatar David looking frail and emaciated.
[11:30:03]
Hamas says it wants humanitarian corridors in Gaza to be reopened before it will consider granting --
