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Sources Say, RFK Jr.'s Deputy at HHS to Be Named Interim CDC Chief; This Hour, Hearing to Block Firing of Fed Governor Lisa Cook; Minneapolis Mourns Victims of Catholic School Shooting. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired August 29, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, turmoil at the CDC, a new acting director and raucous sendoff as top officials resign after their director refused to step down, prompting the White House to fire her.

New details emerging on what investigators have found out about the Minneapolis shooter as we learn more about the young victims.

And Cracker Barrel's 93-year-old co-founder is talking about that attempted rebrand, using words like bland and pitiful, plus new reporting on other changes the company is quietly making.

And Katrina 20 years later, the dire warnings today that history could repeat itself. Plus, we'll bring you never before seen photos of the devastation. You won't want to miss that.

Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Pamela Brown. Wolf Blitzers off and you're in The Situation Room.

And breaking overnight, upheaval at the nation's command center for public health, CNN has learned that Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s deputy at the Health and Human Services Department, Jim O'Neill, is set to become interim director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Today, a leadership crisis hangs over the CDC. Three top leaders have quit to protest the firing of the former director. She reportedly clashed with Kennedy over vaccine policy. Hundreds of CDC employees and supporters honored the resigning leaders with a clap out rally.

The departing officials say, Kennedy, a vaccine skeptic, undermined the agency's foundation in science.

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DR. DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, FORMER NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES DIRECTOR: What makes CDC Great are the people that make CDC up, the scientists, everyone that makes this a family, and it's a family that defends our country and the health of our children and the health of adults.

DR. DANIEL JERRIGAN, FORMERN NATIONAL CENTER FOR EMERGING ZOONOTIC INFECTIOUS DISEASES DIRECTOR: Let's get the politics out of public health. Let's get back to the objectivity and let the science lead us because that's how we get to the best decisions for public health for everyone.

DR. DEB HOURY, FORMER CDC CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: We haven't been as effective because we've had staff cuts, program cuts, and then political interference.

REPORTER: And what about ACIP? Is that --

HOURY: So, ACIP coming up is really one of the things that tipped us all. We are concerned about the upcoming recommendations that probably have been made before we have the data and the science.

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BROWN: All right. Let's go to CNN Health Reporter Jacqueline Howard in Atlanta. Jacqueline, what more do we know about Jim O'Neill?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Well, Pamela, I did speak with current CDC employees who said the main thing they want to know about Jim O'Neill is where exactly he stands on vaccine policies and what his priorities are. This comes, of course, because employees told me that they understand there was tension between the former CDC director, Dr. Susan Monarez, and HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. when it came to vaccines.

But in his confirmation hearing to serve as HHS deputy secretary, Jim O'Neill said that he supports vaccines. Have a listen.

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JIM O'NEILL, DEPUTY HHS SECRETARY NOMINEE: You know, I'm very strongly practicing pro-vaccine. I'm an adviser to a vaccine company. I support the CDC vaccine schedule.

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HOWARD: And, Pamela, we also know that Jim O'Neill, he does have a history working at the Department of Health and Human Services. He worked there during the George W. Bush administration, and more recently, he has spent years as a technology and biotech investor in Silicon Valley, working closely with billionaire Peter Thiel.

So, right now, Pamela, CDC employee employees say that they will be watching closely as we watch this transition in CDC leadership.

BROWN: A lot going on over there. Jacqueline Howard, thank you so much.

And happening now right here in Washington, a judge is hearing Lisa Cook's request to block her firing from the Federal Reserve Board.

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This week, President Trump announced he was removing her over allegations of mortgage fraud. Cook denies wrongdoing and hasn't been charged with anything. But this morning, a Trump official has lodged a new criminal referral against her.

Joining us here in The Situation Room is CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent Katelyn Polantz. And, Katelyn, just to take a step back, because a lot of people might say, well, who's Lisa Cook and what does a Fed gov actually do, the implications, the stakes here are huge because it goes right to the heart of the independence of the Fed, and that impacts all of us.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The independent central bank of the United States. That's part of her argument here, that the presidency, the White House and politics should not be able to do anything once that Board of Governors is set, unless they have a very valid reason of firing someone for a cause.

So, they're arguing that Lisa Cook should be able to keep her job because if the president doesn't have any parameters around how he could remove somebody from a governor position, like he's doing with Lisa Cook, then it could spell disaster for the economy, for the stock markets, for all kinds of things.

One of the arguments here from Lisa Cook's team that we're waiting to hear in court in person, they're all in there and we're just waiting for the judge to take the bench at this point in time, one of the arguments is that this all is a pretext, that Trump wants to get rid of Lisa Cook because of politics, because he is unhappy that the Fed hasn't lowered interest rates.

The for cause situation here though is going to be very important to watch as well. Donald Trump is saying that there's mortgage fraud allegations swirling around Lisa Cook. We do see a second criminal referral going to the Justice Department about her and her handling of properties she owns. All of those are something that the Justice Department now under the Trump administration are very likely to check out and investigate.

But Lisa Cook says she's never had a chance to respond to these. These are things that are unfounded allegations at this time, and that that shouldn't be enough to create a cause for her termination.

BROWN: Really quickly. So, Trump is a defendant, but he's not the only one, right?

POLANTZ: Well, it would be the federal government here that she is suing. She's suing to keep her job. And she's also suing just over the idea that Trump shouldn't have this presidential power. So, this is going to be a battle between Lisa Cook alone as a governor of the Fed that Trump has fired and the Trump administration largely.

The Fed was weighing in a little bit and they said, we're going to follow whatever the court tells us we should do. We could have a decision today on this as well, Pam. This is a very fast-moving court case, an emergency hearing starting now, and it is something that we do see judges often making determinations very quickly on what to do.

BROWN: We'll be watching it. Thanks so much, Katelyn Polantz, we appreciate it.

Well, new this morning, the co-founder of Cracker Barrel is speaking out after an attempt to simplify the restaurant chain's logo backfired and then sparked a culture war firestorm.

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TOMMY LOWE, CO-FOUNDER, CRACKER BARREL: That's nothing, that's a bland nothing. It's pitiful.

And food is something that you need to work on. Spending $700 million to do that is all -- that's throwing money out the street. If they don't get back to the keeping the country, then it ain't going to work.

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BROWN: All right. Let's go to CNN Business Writer Clare Duffy. Clare, Cracker Barrel isn't just tinkering with its logo. Tell us what else this company is doing.

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yes, Pamela. The company has quietly removed a number of pages from its website. It updated the culture page to remove reference to several employee resource groups, including an LGBTQ-plus group, a DEI and Belonging group.

The company has also removed a pride page, and let me read to you what that page said. It said, on behalf of Cracker Barrel's LGBTQ alliance and DEIB team, we want to celebrate you for being you. It's our greatest mission to ensure that pleasing people means all people.

And conservative activists are now cheering this, declaring total victory, after they said that the company's moved to walk back that new logo, didn't go far enough to address that rebrand that they were calling woke.

Now, Cracker Barrel is saying that changing its website was something that was already in the works, they're positioning this as part of this broader rebrand the company has been undergoing. Let me read to you what a spokesperson told us. They said, in connection with the company's brand work. We have recently made updates to the Cracker Barrel website, including adding new content and removing out-of-date content, also saying that the company wanted to focus on core priorities, core values, like addressing food insecurity, Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Clare Duffy, thanks so much for bringing this latest there.

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And also new this morning, House Speaker Mike Johnson is talking about the Trump Justice Department's interview last month with Ghislaine Maxwell. Listen to what he told CNN earlier this morning. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): She has no credibility. She's been convicted for sex trafficking, okay? But we are from maximum transparency with the Epstein files. I've been saying this for years, we've been intellectually consistent from day one.

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BROWN: And CNN Anchor John Berman interviewed Speaker Johnson earlier this morning. So, John, tell us, what else did he tell you?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You can call me anything you want. I'm just lucky to be here.

BROWN: Thank you, John. I appreciate that. We go way back.

BERMAN: So, first of all, when I asked Speaker Johnson about Ghislaine Maxwell, I read back a quote from Maxwell's interview, you can actually see his face turn. I mean, he really could not possibly hold her in lower regard. So, he told me he discounts everything she says, but he also went on to say some interesting things about what might happen in Congress because there is this discharge petition that could ripen in the next few weeks from Congressman Massie, from your home state of Kentucky, and also Ro Khanna from California.

And what was interesting is he really was evasive on it. Speaker Johnson really seems to think that maybe the conditions have changed. Maybe that won't be something that's followed through with 218 signatures. So, stand by for that. He won't give a solid answer.

He also talked a little bit about what's in store in Congress for the next month. President Trump just a few days ago said he'd been working with Speaker Johnson and Leader Thune over in the Senate on a comprehensive crime bill. And that surprised a lot of people when he said it. So, I asked Speaker Johnson, what was he talking about? And the speaker told me, well, it's partially more about Washington, D.C. They're going to try to pass some more things to codify some of the moves the president has been making fighting crime in Washington, D.C., maybe a few things that will apply nationally as well.

I asked him specifically about Shreveport. Part of his district has Shreveport, Louisiana in it. Shreveport, actually, according to FBI statistics in 2024, had a higher violent crime rate per capita than Washington, D.C. So, I said, why not move to send the National Guard to Shreveport if you're in favor of D.C. and other cities? Listen to what he told me.

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BERMAN: I was going to ask when you might be calling for the National Guard in Shreveport, which is -- you have -- part of your district is Shreveport. The FBI statistics, actually violent crime per 100,000 residents higher in Shreveport last year than Washington, D.C.

JOHNSON: There's a lot of good work that's been done. There's a lot of reasons for that, but we have a Democrat D.A. there who has not been prosecuting crime as some other more aggressive D.A.s have around the country. Soros funded that individual to be elected. But I'll say that, you know, it's an urban area that has a lot of problems that are happening around the country, and we have to address it.

BERMAN: So, with the Guard help, if the Guard can help in D.C. The president has said he wants to send the guard to Chicago and other places. Why not Shreveport?

JOHNSON: I don't know. That's not my call.

BERMAN: Would you ask him that?

JOHNSON: It may be necessary. Well, I don't know. Let's take one city at a time and see. We have to address the crime problem in any city where it's a problem like that.

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BERMAN: It is interesting to hear the way Speaker Johnson does talk about that because the only cities where President Trump has talked about sending National Guard are in states run by Democrats. There are high crime cities and states run by Republicans, like Louisiana, like Tennessee, Memphis have higher crime rates. But you don't hear the administration or senior Republicans talk about sending the National Guard there. Pam?

BROWN: You certainly don't.

John Berman, thank you so much.

BERMAN: Thank you. Have a great week.

BROWN: You too.

And happening now, we are learning more about the two children who were killed Wednesday in the Minneapolis school shooting. The families of 10-year-old Harper Moyski and eight-year-old Fletcher Merkel both sharing their heartbreak. Here's Fletcher's dad.

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JESSE MERKEL, EIGHT-YEAR-OLD SON FLETCHER KILLED IN SCHOOL SHOOTING: A coward decided to take our 8-year-old year old son, Fletcher, away from us.

Please remember Fletcher for the person he was and not the act that ended his life. Give your kids an extra hug and kiss today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I know I certainly have been. CNN also spoke exclusively with a young survivor who described the terrifying ordeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHLOE FRANCOUAL, SHOOTING SURVIVOR: The teacher was in the middle of saying our prayers, and then we heard just one shot. It felt -- I smelled smoke before everything, but I heard one shot. I thought it was a firework, like everybody else. The second shot was just everybody just covering their ears. The third shot was when everybody started ducking low. And all these shots were like slow until the fourth shot. It started getting faster and faster, and then that's when everybody took into action.

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BROWN: I want to thank Chloe for sharing her traumatizing story with us. And that action included escaping to a nearby classroom where children barricaded the door to protect themselves.

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Let's bring in CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller. So, John, authorities have gathered at this point hundreds of pieces of evidence in this case. What have we learned so far?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: What we've learned is he's been planning this for a long, long time. The shooter, apparently, according to investigators, has had some semblance of an idea of a school shooting in the planning phase for probably five years, they estimate. They say this started, you know, around the time of COVID when he would've been graduating high school.

So, what we see there is this is not somebody who snapped because of the final stressor, you know, of a life that was spinning out of control. This is someone who really had this idea, studied others, and carried it out.

BROWN: Yes, just so depraved in every way. Does it follow what we've seen from other mass shooters? Do you see that trend playing out here?

MILLER: It does. And, Pam, it's striking that not only does it follow the pattern, but we see this pattern emerging with such clarity and similarity. You know, the long planning arc, the fact that he did his research. And when I say he did his research, that is a two-stage process. First, he did his research into every other mass shooter. He studied the individual who committed the worst mass shooting in Norway with a body count of 77. He studied the New Zealand shooter who killed 51. He studied the Buffalo shooter, we remember, the supermarket shooting. One of his references that he rode on his rifle was more than ten, meaning he wanted to exceed that at least as a body count.

And then the second part of his planning after studying others who did the same kinds of terrible acts was to do his reconnaissance. He went to the church, he attended the mass, he made the diagram inside, and he put all of that information into his plan to get inside and do that shooting. Ultimately, he had to do it, she had to do it from outside.

BROWN: Wow. John Miller, thank you so much.

And still ahead right here in The Situation Room, explosions near Gaza City as Israel amps up its assault of the area. We are live in Tel Aviv with the new details on that.

Stay with us. You're in The Situation Room.

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BROWN: Well, this morning in Minneapolis, one question looms amid the anguish and the heartbreak of a killer's attack on a church filled with praying children. Could more have been done to protect the two who were killed and the 18 other people who were injured?

I want to discuss that with Donell Harvin, who is the chief of Homeland Security for Washington, D.C. He's now on the faculty at Georgetown University's Emergency and Disaster Management Master's program. Thanks for being here at Donell.

You know, we're learning that this church would lock its doors once mass began, and that almost certainly saved lives here because police say that the killer barricaded the two doors of the church and then had planned to enter and continue the slaughter. Would you encourage other houses of worship to follow the simple measure of locking the doors once services began? It's sad we even have to think about that, right?

DONELL HARVIN, HOMELAND SECURITY ANALYST: Absolutely. And that's a really good tactic to keep out people that you're not familiar with. Understand, you know, many of us go to church. When you go to church, you're not focused on the back door behind you yet. The pews are facing the front. And so someone can easily walk in who you don't know unless you have a security guard standing by.

Many churches don't want to have that type of security posture, while some do. I'll tell you, I've worked with many houses of worship, particularly after the Tree of Life shooting in Pittsburgh that took the lives of several parishioners that were at that synagogue. And after that many churches started putting in security cameras and building plans, really, going through their houses of worship, seeing where their vulnerabilities were, and coming up with plans just like this to lock the doors. It could be something as simple as that.

BROWN: We should note that the Trump administration has implemented new prohibitions on a federal security grant. That grant provides funding to protect vulnerable nonprofits, such as houses of worship from physical or cyber attacks. You used to run that program here in Washington. What can you tell us?

HARVIN: Yes. So, that money came through our agency and we would work, it's called the Nonprofit Security Grant, once again, out of the lessons learned from the Tree of Life. Houses of worship don't have funding for security measures. And we spent years creating a really good community and a program for houses of worship too, do risk assessments, hire extra security on days that people worshiping, putting cameras, create plans. We train them how to stop bleeding and give them tourniquets and active shooter training. The Trump administration slashed that program by more than half. I'd also add that the Targeted Violence and Terrorism Prevention Program, which allows funding to go directly to states to do threat assessment and behavioral assessment teams, that's also been slashed.

BROWN: So, what are the implications of that, in your view? I mean, do you believe that program could have prevented attacks from happening?

HARVIN: Well, it's kind of early in the administration to tell, and I'm not -- in all fairness, I can't say that this attack that happened in Minnesota was a direct result of these policies. What I can tell you with 100 percent assurity is that not having these policies in place makes us a lot less safe.

And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the one mechanism that Department of Homeland Security has to help prevent terrorism and targeted acts of violence, it's called CP3.

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That's the Center for Prevention Programs and Partnerships. That agency has actually been run -- is being run by a Trump administrative -- administration appointee that's 22 years old. He was an intern before. And so this was widely reported, but people didn't think about that because it's just part of, you know, the news cycle. But that 22- year-old is in charge of the nation's apparatus to help prevent these things from happening again. So, we really have a bleak outlook in the future for us.

BROWN: When it comes to Minneapolis, police say that the killer visited the church weeks ago to map out the attack. If someone is determined to strike a house of worship, which is such a soft target, given its welcoming atmosphere, I mean, how can you protect it? What more needs to be done? I know we talked about locking the doors. What else?

HARVIN: Yes. So, there's different phases of these attacks, and I teach this in my classes at Georgetown. The best time to stop a maligned actor, or a would-be assailant, is when they're doing what we call pre-operational surveillance, collecting pre-operational intelligence. That's when you find someone that shouldn't be where they're at. Maybe they're taking photos or videos, and they're often if there's a security guard or someone who has a wherewithal, they approach those individuals and say, hey, how are you? Good morning. What are you doing here? And they start interacting. Sometimes that can scare people off.

They're also trying to determine how soft that target is. And the softer the target appears, the more likelihood that they're going to go and attack that target. So, that's what we work with houses of worship to make that target harder in a way that people don't do that surveillance, or that if you do find someone that's doing that, you have a mechanism, like a behavioral assessment team or a threat assessment center that you can call in that tip and leave.

BROWN: Just really quickly, we've been talking about how investigators have con conducted dozens of interviews collecting evidence, but at last check they have not spoken to the shooter's mother who had worked at that school for several years. How important is she to this investigation and what do you think investigators want to ask her?

HARVIN: That's critically important. And I don't want to make a judgment about why she hasn't spoken to law enforcement --

BROWN: Right. We don't know, and I know -- I believe she did get a lawyer but that we shouldn't read into that, right?

HARVIN: She may be traumatized or she may be getting legal counsel. It's critically important, and I'll tell you why. Just because the shooter is dead doesn't mean that we don't want to understand them, what motivated them or what radicalized them. I can guarantee you there are other young people out there that are being met radicalized through similar or the same mechanisms. Maybe it's an online chat group, maybe it's a group of friends. And so investigators need to know this and prevent the next attack.

BROWN: All right. Donell Harvin, thank you so much for all of your insights and perspective.

Well, coming up right here in The Situation Room, it's hard to forget the images from Hurricane Katrina. Up next, a former CNN correspondent who reported on the disaster tells us what she saw and what still sticks with her 20 years later.

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