Return to Transcripts main page
The Situation Room
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Testifies on Capitol Hill. Aired 10:30- 11a ET
Aired September 04, 2025 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:30:00]
SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): -- in clarity to that because it is frustrating to see these continuous allegations that the difficulties that our rural hospitals are facing. All were created in the last few months when we passed a bill, when we've been holding hearings in this committee about these problems. And in the bill that we passed, we gave a $50 billion boost to, as you indicated, increased by 50 percent the federal support for our community, rural hospitals in the United States.
And I think that the hospital owners understand that. They recognize this support. In fact, they are coming very -- they're coming together very carefully with Dr. Oz to work on the rollout of this program so that we can see this boost and this support that is coming. Just another one of the disagreements we have about what really was in the one big beautiful bill. So, I appreciate you commenting on that.
In the last few -- in the last minute and 10 seconds that I have with you, could you just quickly talk once again about the broad issue of making America healthy again in terms of our aim to change the healthcare system's focus from a reactive symptom management model to one that focuses on lifestyle choices and the root causes of chronic disease?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: Yes, Senator. You know, this morning, I got the latest numbers from CDC, that 76.4 percent of Americans now have a chronic disease. This is stunning. When my uncle was president was 11 percent, 1950, it was 3 percent, a 76.4 percent, 85 -- 8 out of 10 of our kids cannot qualify for military service. This is a national security issue. When my uncle was president, we spent zero on chronic disease.
Today we spend $1.3 trillion. It's the biggest cause. It's increasing. And all of the arguments that Republicans and Democrats have about single payer, Obamacare, or with various ways of allocate the health dollars, they're all like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. If we don't end this chronic disease -- we are the sickest country in the world. That's why we have to fire people at CDC. They did not do their job. This was their job to keep us healthy.
CRAPO: Thank you, Mr. --
KENNEDY JR.: And I need to fire some of those people to make sure this doesn't happen again. CRAPO: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I have to cut myself off to make sure I keep to this timeframe too. Senator Wyden.
SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR), RANKING MEMBER, FINANCE COMMITTEE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I've made it clear, I think that Secretary Kennedy is dead set on making it harder for children to get vaccines and that kids are going to die because of it. And, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to put in the record today an op-ed written by Susan Monarez, who was fired by Mr. Kennedy.
CRAPO: Without objection.
WYDEN: So, what we know. And Dr. Monarez, you know, was approved by Republicans. She wrote an op-ed today in the Wall Street Journal, which I've just put in the record and I quote her, she said, "I was told to pre-approve the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel newly filled with people who have publicly expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric."
So, this is not some liberal philosopher or something, this is the CDC director who tells the Wall Street Journal, which is not exactly interested in progressive, you know, theories and the like, that she was told to pre-approved the recommendations of a vaccine advisory panel filled with people who've publicly expressed anti-vaccine rhetoric.
So, my first question, Mr. Secretary, is, did you in fact do what Director Monarez said you did, which is tell her to just go along with vaccine recommendations even if she didn't think such recommendations aligned with scientific evidence?
KENNEDY JR.: No, I did not.
WYDEN: That's a yes or no. So, you have an opportunity to call her a liar if you say that you didn't do it, but I'd like to see you respond to this.
KENNEDY JR.: Yes. No, I did not say that to her.
WYDEN: You did not?
KENNEDY JR.: And I never had a private meeting with her. Other witnesses to every meeting that we have, and all of those witnesses will say, I never said that.
WYDEN: So, she's lying today to the American people in the Wall Street Journal?
KENNEDY JR.: Yes, sir.
WYDEN: OK. Let's talk now about what's coming up. Because I've made it clear what I've thought about the 203, you know, days with my colleagues, Senator Alsobrooks. In two weeks, CDC's Advisory Committee on immunization practices will meet to make decisions about critical vaccines that protect us against Hepatitis B, measles, and more. The committee's got a profound impact on vaccine access, but these aren't ordinary meetings. You've stacked the deck to ensure the panel benefits bends to your views.
[10:35:00]
In June, you fired all 17 committee members who were respected scientists and doctors. You replaced them with non-experts, vaccine skeptics and conspiracy theorists. As a result, this critical advisory panel has scientific credibility after years colleagues, we spend so much time not looking at this as Democrats and Republicans, but as good science and scientific, you know, credibility. And now, the American Academy of Pediatrics has warned that the committee is being politicized at the expense of children's health. American Academy of Pediatrics, you think they're lying too?
KENNEDY JR.: I think the American Academy of Pediatrics is gravely conflicted. They get very -- their biggest contributors are the four largest vaccine makers. They run a journal pediatrics, which they make a lot of money on. That is completely dependent on pharmaceutical companies. So, I don't think -- I wouldn't put a big stake in what they say that benefits pharmaceutical interest.
Senator, I didn't politicize ACIP. I depoliticize it. The Congress has been investigating ACIP --
WYDEN: But all over the country, Mr. Secretary, scientists and doctors are saying otherwise, they're all wrong too? They're all lying, according to you?
KENNEDY JR.: The scientists and doctors are supporting me all over the country. There is divisional on opinion.
WYDEN: I don't get letters from thousands of people who are not political saying that this set of changes is going to damage American healthcare and particularly these healthcare agencies for decades to come. I don't get any letters from people saying people he's going to make a big difference forever.
KENNEDY JR.: And maybe you're listening to a selective group of people.
WYDEN: Well, you get me some.
KENNEDY JR.: Yes. And I will/
WYDEN: Fine.
KENNEDY JR.: I will tell you what, Senator.
WYDEN: I got 30 seconds.
KENNEDY JR.: I'll put my mail bag against your mail bag any day of the week.
WYDEN: I got 30 seconds. Dangerous respiratory viruses like RSV are on the agenda for the next advisory meeting. Countless parents have been awakened in the dead of night by a wheezing kid, gasping for air, forced to rush their little one to the ER. There's no worse heart wrenching fear. The RSV vaccine offers these kids protection against the worst effects of the virus, but now, it looks like you're on a crusade to make infants and babies more vulnerable to the terrible illness. That's what we're doing with the COVID changes.
CRAPO: And please make your answer brief, Mr. Secretary.
KENNEDY JR.: I've said --
WYDEN: The position is indefensible. I think it's possible --
KENNEDY JR.: Congress has been investigating that committee for 23 years because it is pervaded with conflicts of interest. What we did is we got rid of the conflicts of interest when we put -- we depoliticized and put grave scientists on it, from -- a very diverse group.
WYDEN: Let close with --
KENNEDY JR.: A very, very pro-vaccine.
WYDEN: Let me close with this because like Senator Crapo, I'm a few seconds over. I don't think, Mr. Secretary, this is about you and me. This is about kids being pushed in harm's way by reckless and repeated decisions to get scientists and doctors out of the way and allow conspiracy theories to dictate this country's health policy. I don't see any evidence that you have any regrets about anything you've done or plans to change it. And my last comment is I hope that you'll tell the American people how many preventable child deaths are an acceptable sacrifice for enacting an agenda that I think is fundamentally cruel and defies common sense.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
KENNEDY JR.: Do I get a reply or -- Senator, you've sat in that chair for how long? 20, 25 years while the chronic disease in our children went up to 76 percent and you said nothing. You never asked the question why it's happening. Why is this happening? Today, for the first time in 20 years we've learned that infant mortality has increased in our country. It's not because I came in here, it's because of what happened during the Biden administration that we're going to end.
CRAPO: I'm going to let Senator Wyden respond briefly to that and then we're not going to go over like we just did.
WYDEN: Only to defend this committee on a bipartisan basis. Colleagues, my cabinet secretary says that we have no interest in chronic care. Mr. Secretary --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, could we have regular order please?
WYDEN: -- in the process of turning around the Medicare program with the chronic care bill that Chairman Hatch when he was chairman in this committee together on a bipartisan basis.
CRAPO: All right. We're going to proceed. And I just want the rest of the members to know I gave Senator Wyden as ranking members some leeway.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We've been listening to this hearing with embattled Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy. You saw that fiery exchange there with Democratic Senator Wyden over his vaccine policy, other issues. We're going to continue to cover this and we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:40:00]
BROWN: Right now, HHS Secretary RFK Jr. is testifying to senators. As you see here, Republican Senator Grassley of Iowa speaking. Let's listen in.
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA): -- through these organizations to ensure that this doesn't happen again.
KENNEDY JR.: We have mounted a major investigation of misconduct, of illegal behavior, of organ harvesting of living people, of line skipping, of favoritism, of all kinds of scandalous behavior inside the organ procurement organizations. We have already ended the contract, terminated the contract with the sole source provider. We are reorganizing the entire industry so that this can never happen again. I'm happy to go into the details with you if I had more time.
GRASSLEY: Thank you, Senator. Cornyn.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): Mr. Secretary, the United States spends approximately 18 percent of our GDP on healthcare, and yet, by most accounts, we rank roughly 10th in the world in terms of a healthcare outcome. Our Democratic colleagues seem to think the more money you spend, you necessarily are going to improve those outcomes. But at the same time, we have the two major drivers of our national debt, Social Security and Medicare, while we spend more money on interest on the national debt than we do on defense of the nation, which is an unsustainable trajectory.
What is it that you're doing to address the effectiveness and the outcomes of our healthcare expenditures as opposed to just throwing more money at the problem?
KENNEDY JR.: Yes. I mean, throwing money at the problem has not worked. We spend due to three times per capita what European nations spend on healthcare, and we have the worst health outcomes. We're 79th in healthcare outcomes globally.
Over the past 20 years, we've lost -- or 30 years, we've lost six years to Europe in terms of longevity. So, our lifespan was even with Europe's now at six years behind. As I said to -- as I remark to Chairman Wyden this morning, minority leader Biden. The -- today we got new data that showed that infant mortality has increased in this country in 2024, the first time in 20 years.
We've -- diabetes has gone up 98 percent in 20 years. Nobody's doing anything about it. CDC's job was to make sure that this didn't happen. And what we're going to do is reorganize CDC, but also, we've already righted the ship at NIH, at FDA, at the CMS, and we are going to end the chronic disease epidemic. We are devoting thousands of studies, we're going to devote to identifying the causes and we're eliminating them. And we're already starting, we're not waiting for everything to come in. We are starting now. We're doing this with food dyes, with grass stands (ph), with dietary guidelines. We're going to get better food and better health to the American public because it's chronic disease that is bankrupting us and destroying our national security.
CORNYN: It seems to me one of the biggest problems that we have in America today is the trustworthiness of the information that we actually receive from the news media and from any other source. And obviously, the easiest thing for our Democratic colleagues to do is to scare people because that is a powerful emotion no matter what the what the facts may be. Do you believe COVID-19 was politicized?
KENNEDY JR.: Yes. The whole process was politicized. Senator, I mean, we were lied to about everything. We were lied to about natural immunity. We're lied to about -- you know, we were told again and again, the vaccines would prevent transmission. They prevent infection. It wasn't true. They knew it from the start. It wasn't true because that's what the animal studies and the clinical trial showed. We were told that there was science behind cloth mask.
The CDC allowed the teacher's union to write the order closing our schools, which hurt working people all over the country, and then pretend it was science-based. All of these issues -- and then I can show you -- like for example, Chairman Wyden was talking about me criticizing ACIP during COVID. The -- probably the most famous scientist on ACIP was Martin Kulldorff from Harvard, the great renowned -- world renowned epidemiologist and vaccinologist. And he criticized the COVID booster mandates. They ejected him from COVID because he wasn't in the orthodoxy.
The two biggest health officials that FDA during COVID, Dr. Gruber and Dr. Krause criticized the Biden mandates, vaccine mandate. You know, President Biden said in August, I would never take that vaccine, the Trump vaccine. And he came in, he mandated it.
[10:50:00]
And then he fired the two top health officials in FDA who said, hey, this thing has not been properly tested. So, the whole process was politicized even today.
CORNYN: So, let me -- I have 15 seconds. So, I think you answered yes, it was politicized. And does -- I have concerns that when you look at some of the conflicts of interest in peer reviewed articles and professional journals, and when you point out that even some of the physician associations are conflicted because of the money they get from the pharmaceutical industry, are you committed to trying to make sure that we use the best science and separate -- and eliminate politics as much as possible?
KENNEDY JR.: That is what my job is. That's what my mission is. Eliminate the politics from science.
CRAPO: Senator Bennet.
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-CO): Mr. Secretary, in June you fired every member -- Mr. Secretary, are you -- Mr. Secretary? May I have my time back, Mr. Chairman? Thank you. Mr. Secretary, thank you for your attention. In June, you fired every member of the well-qualified panel that was charged with recommending vaccines to the CDC. No one in your job has ever fired every committee member all at once. That month you told the American people that you were, quote, "going to bring great people onto the ACIP panel, not anti-vaxxers."
Are you aware that one of the people you put on the panel, Dr. Robert Malone, claimed that the commonly used mRNA vaccine, quote, "causes a form of AIDS" and can damage children's, quote, "brains, their heart, their immune system and their ability to have children in the future"? Yes or no, Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY JR.: And Dr. Malone is one of the inventors of the --
BENNET: Yes or no? Yes or no? Are you -- were you aware that he had that view when you appointed him to this panel?
KENNEDY JR.: Dr. Malone is one of the -- as I said, Dr. Malone is one of the inventors of the mRNA vaccine.
BENNET: That's fine. That's not --
KENNEDY JR.: So, he knows more --
BENNET: That statement -- Mr. Chairman. That statement is not true that Dr. Malone made, just as it wasn't true when you wrote that, quote, "African AIDS is entirely different from western AIDS." Are you aware that another one of these new members, Dr. Levy, wrote that quote, "evidence is mounting an indisputable that mRNA vaccines cause serious harm, including death, especially among young people"? Yes or no? Are you aware that he said that?
KENNEDY JR.: I wasn't aware he said it. But I think I agree with it.
BENNET: You agree with it? It's not true. It wasn't true when he said it. It is not true when you said it. Secretary Kennedy, later this month your new panel will meet to consider changing vaccine recommendations for American children. In addition to the COVID-19 vaccines, they're set to review recommendations for the Hepatitis B vaccine, for measles, for mumps, for rubella and varicella vaccine and the RSV vaccine. These are common back to school vaccinations for children all over the industrialized world.
If you change that, you owe parents in Colorado and across the country the benefit of some transparency, I think. If your panel recommends changing the vaccine schedule for children, do you anticipate that fewer children will receive these common vaccinations? Yes or no?
KENNEDY JR.: I what I would say, Senator -- BENNET: The obvious answer is yes. Should parents and schools of
Colorado be prepared for more measles outbreaks as a result of that, Mr. Secretary?
KENNEDY JR.: Senator --
BENNET: How about were mumps outbreaks.
KENNEDY JR.: I don't -- I do not anticipate a change in the MMR vaccine. You know, ACIP is an independent panel. So --
BENNET: So, well, it's a panel you just put those folks on far from what you said. There are people with ideas that are completely outside the mainstream.
KENNEDY JR.: You mean out of the pharmaceutical paradigm?
BENNET: Let me just say, Mr. Secretary, all these vaccines that we're talking about today are free and accessible to parents today in America who have the freedom to be able to make that choice for their children. Will that be true after your handpicked panel makes their judgements about these vaccines?
KENNEDY JR.: I think that parents should be free to --
BENNET: I know you said that before. I do too.
KENNEDY JR.: To make their own choices.
BENNET: So, will they be just as free after these records?
KENNEDY JR.: I assume they will be.
[10:55:00]
BENNET: I will hold you to that, Secretary Kennedy, because this is not a podcast. It is the American people's health that's on the line here. This is the last thing, by the way, our parents need when their kids are going back to school, is to have the kind of confusion and expense and scarcity that you're creating as a result of your ideology. I think it's critical for you to share the evidence that this panel will rely on. Will you give the American people six months -- or six weeks in advance the record that they're going to rely on to make these decisions? Will you make it transparent for the American people?
KENNEDY JR.: All the evidence is transparent.
BENNET: Will you make it in advance transparent for the American people so they can comment on?
KENNEDY JR.: All the evidence is transparent for the first time in history. and you were never there complaining when the pharmaceutical companies were picking those people and then running their products through with no safety testing. BENNET: You can make -- you can characterize it any way you want. I quoted them today, what I said was accurate. What you said were lies. You described --
KENNEDY JR.: Are you, Senator --
BENNET: -- moving the Titanic --
KENNEDY JR.: Senator, are you saying that mRNA vaccine has never been associated with myocarditis or pericarditis nature --
BENNET: I'm saying -- I am simply --
KENNEDY JR.: Is that what you're trying to tell us?
BENNET: I am simply trying to say that the people that you have put on that panel after firing the entire --
KENNEDY JR.: You're evading the question.
BENNET: You -- no, I'm asking the questions here. Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY JR.: You're evading that question.
BENNET: I'm asking the questions, Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY JR.: Oh, I ask a question.
BENNET: I'm asking the questions, Mr. Kennedy, on behalf of parents and schools and teachers all over the United States of America who deserve so much better than your leadership. That's what this conversation is about.
KENNEDY JR.: Senator --
BENNET: Thank you, Chairman.
KINKADE: Senator, they deserve the truth, and that's what we're going to give them for the first time in the history of that agency.
CRAPO: Senator Cassidy.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Thank you. I'll try and restore a little calm here. And I'm approaching this as a doctor, not as a senator. I'm concerned about children's health, senior's health, all of our health. And I applaud you for joining the president in a call for radical transparency. Thank you for that.
I said yesterday, I believe it, that President Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed. If he had been President Obama, he would've gotten it. But because of Operation Warp Speed, forcing the federal government to come to a vaccine development within 10 months when others said it couldn't be done, we saved millions of lives globally, trillions of dollars, we reopened economy economies, an incredible accomplishment.
Mr. Secretary, do you agree with me that the president deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?
KENNEDY JR.: Yes, absolutely, Senator.
CASSIDY: So, let me ask you, but you just told Senator Bennet that the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID. That was a statement.
KENNEDY JR.: I did not say that.
CASSIDY: OK. Then let me ask, because you also were --
KENNEDY JR.: Senator, I just want to make clear. I did not say that.
CASSIDY: We'll check the record. That's a question of fact. You also said that you were also as lead attorney for the Children's Health Defense. You engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. Again, it surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when as an attorney you attempted to restrict access.
Now, let me ask --
KENNEDY JR.: I'm happy to explain why.
CASSIDY: I have three minutes and 30 seconds left.
KENNEDY JR.: All right.
CASSIDY: It also surprises me, because you've canceled or HHS did, but apparently under your direction, $500 million in contracts using the mRNA vaccine platform that was critical to Operation Warp Speed. Again, an accomplishment that I think President Trump should get a Nobel Prize for. You canceled $500 million in contracts.
Now, I grew up in a middle-class family. So, $500 million seems -- just to cancel, it seems like a incredible waste of money. But it also seems like a commentary upon what the president was attempting -- what the president did in Operation Warp Speed, which is to create a platform by which to create vaccines. So, this just seems inconsistent that you would agree with me the president deserves tremendous amount of credit for this.
KENNEDY JR.: Is this a question, Senator Cassidy, or is this a speech? You don't want me to answer --
CASSIDY: No, I'm asking you a question.
KENNEDY JR.: Because I want to answer that question.
CASSIDY: Please, please.
KENNEDY JR.: If it's a question.
CASSIDY: But be tight, please.
KENNEDY JR.: First of all the reason that. Operation Warp Speed was genius, is it did something nobody had ever been done. I don't think any president, but sure President Trump could do it. It got the vaccine to mark that was perfectly matched to the virus at that time --
[11:00:00]
