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The Situation Room

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Testifies Before Congress. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired September 04, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: Yes, is, it did something nobody had -- ever been done.

I don't think any president but President Trump could do it. It got the vaccine to market that was perfectly matched to the virus at that time, when it was badly needed, because there was low natural immunity and there were people getting very badly injured by COVID.

And then -- but he was also -- also brought in therapeutics like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and all -- and protocols for treatment and all -- and there were no mandates.

(CROSSTALK)

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): I have another question, so please...

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: That's when I began litigating against President Biden's mandates now.

(CROSSTALK)

CASSIDY: I'm sorry. Let me go on, because...

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: In terms of me canceling those contracts...

CASSIDY: I have limited time Mr. Secretary. I'm sorry.

You have called for, and rightly so, that we should restrict participation in agencies for those with conflict of interest. I would like to submit for the record a evaluation of the conflict of interest of those who are on the ACIP and the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee.

It was not 97 percent, as alleged. Rather, it was 6.9 percent and it was 1.2 percent I think for the other panel.

SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): Without objection.

CASSIDY: Now I am concerned, though, because many of those whom you have nominated for the ACIP board...

(CROSSTALK)

CASSIDY: Can I have my time back?

CRAPO: Yes.

CASSIDY: What I am concerned about is that many of those whom you have nominated for ACIP have received revenue as serving as expert witnesses for plaintiff's attorneys suing vaccine makers.

Now, one of my colleagues in another setting alleged that you see more interested in settlements than science. If we put people who are paid witnesses for vaccine people suing vaccines, that actually seems like a conflict of interest. Real quickly, do you agree with that?

KENNEDY: No, I don't it.

It may be a bias. And if that bias if disclosed is OK.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: It's not a financial conflict of interest.

CASSIDY: Let me finish up.

You also told Senator Wyden at the outset that you didn't want to take vaccines away from people. And as I conclude, I would like to say this. Because of the conflicting recommendations made by -- about COVID -- this is from Erick Erickson, good conservative out of Atlanta, Georgia, occasionally gives me help.

"My wife has stage four lung cancer. She is one of the people that COVID vaccine actually helps. Thanks to the current mess at HHS, CVS is unable to get her vaccine."

Secondly, an e-mail from a physician friend of mine: "Hey, Bill, I'm not even sure what I'm asking you. But we're all confused and concerned about who can get the COVID vaccine. We are having our attorney try and render an opinion. But there's no firm guidance and concern about liability if vaccines are given to a patient requested, but not on the current CDC list. Pharmacists are requiring a prescription now even for patients over 65, creating a huge headache."

I submit these for the record.

CRAPO: Without objection.

CASSIDY: I would say effectively we're denying people vaccine.

CRAPO: Senator Cantwell.

KENNEDY: I think you're wrong.

SEN. MARIA CANTWELL (D-WA): Thank you Mr. Chairman. Following up on that same line as Senator Cassidy, because that's

exactly -- I represent one of the most science-based states in the country. That is percentage of scientists per capita.

And at your confirmation hearing, we asked about this whether you would follow science. You have made a statement here today in your testimony that you would follow science. And yet you're not following science and that's what Senator Cassidy's question was.

It's a simple yes-or-no answer. Do you think the president deserves to get a prize for Warp Speed in the mRNA technology that saved so many lives? And you won't answer that question.

KENNEDY: I answered it.

CANTWELL: No, you're saying that there are problems with what was interpreted. You could say yes. Do you say yes right now?

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: I said the president deserves a Nobel Prize, but are mRNA vaccines that we're working on, the ones that we canceled, which are for upper respiratory infections alone, are those...

CANTWELL: You canceled $500 million of research, because the mRNA technology is about continuing the research to be ready for the next flu influenza, the next pandemic. And you have to do the research.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: I'm happy to have a detailed discussion with you about it. You're so wrong on your facts.

CANTWELL: You're interrupting me. And, sir, you're a charlatan. That's what you are. You're the ones who conflate chronic disease with the need for vaccines.

The history on vaccines is very clear. This is the 20th century. That's how many people had vaccines and had illnesses. This is the 21st century. This is the decrease, 99 percent down to 100 percent. This is what was delivered with vaccines. And you don't want to support that.

[11:05:09]

You don't want to support that evidence. So, yes, the governors of the West, Washington, Oregon, and California, will take up the efficacy of science. Yes, the University of Washington will deliver the science that America will depend on, because you don't want to depend on it.

And his own surgeon general of the Trump administration said over two million lives were saved because of the mRNA technology, and you don't want to continue that. You don't want to continue that technology.

So what country is going to now take up that technology lead? What country is going to do that? Leaving us more vulnerable to some other country keeping the advantage on having the best technology. So I'm telling you, I represent a state that's about technology.

I have two other quick questions for you.

KENNEDY: Are these questions or statements? Because I can answer that question if it's actually a question.

CANTWELL: Do you believe in having the ACA and the support for the ACA that is about to expire? Do you believe in doing something about that?

KENNEDY: In terms of the advance of the enhanced premium tax credits?

CANTWELL: Yes.

KENNEDY: Well, the Democrats had two chance to make them permanent, and they didn't. And they didn't for a reason.

CANTWELL: We're the ones who delivered it. So I'm just asking you, yes or no, do you want to do something about this, yes or no?

KENNEDY: I want to fix the system, and that's what we're doing, fixing systematically to make premiums lower. That's what President Trump wants to do.

CANTWELL: Do you think the women on the steps of the Capitol were a hoax yesterday?

KENNEDY: I don't know about any women on the steps of the Capitol.

CANTWELL: The women who were talking about Epstein, do you think they were a hoax yesterday?

KENNEDY: Do I think they were...

CANTWELL: Do you think they were perpetrating a hoax yesterday?

KENNEDY: Perpetuating a hoax? Yes, I have no idea what they were saying. This is the first I'm hearing about it.

CANTWELL: You're first that you're hearing about the women on the Capitol steps saying that they believe that the Epstein information should be made public? That's the first you're hearing about it?

What I'm saying is, you are perpetrating hoaxes, you, as the secretary of health. So you're undermining the whole health care delivery system and you keep trying to point to chronic disease, but you're not putting solutions on the table to cover more Americans and you're taking away the science and technology that has made us the leader that has saved, according to the first Trump administration's surgeon general, millions of lives.

And you don't want to keep that going. So, no, I don't support your continued efforts as secretary, and I definitely think that our colleagues need to rally around science. If you want the Northwest to just continue to lead on all innovation and all healthy people, OK, we will do that, but it's a sad statement for the rest of America and America's leadership on technology.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CRAPO: Thank you.

Senator Warner.

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Mr. Secretary, I agree with a lot of my colleagues' statement. I actually hoped -- I didn't support you. I thought taking on chronic illnesses was going to be important. I have got two kids, as we discussed when you met, that have chronic illnesses.

I'm not sure that the focus on red dye and seed oils are going to fully solve that problem.

KENNEDY: Of course they won't.

WARNER: I would say this. That seems where your emphasis is.

I want to go back to just again some basic facts. Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?

KENNEDY: I don't know how many died.

WARNER: You're the secretary of health and human services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID?

KENNEDY: I don't think anybody knows that, because the -- there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC.

(CROSSTALK)

WARNER: You don't know the answer of how many Americans died from COVID. This is the secretary of health and human services.

Do you think the vaccine did anything to prevent additional deaths? Again,

KENNEDY: I would like to see the data and talk about the data.

WARNER: You have had this job for eight months and you don't know the data about whether the vaccine saved lives?

KENNEDY: No. And that's the problem, is that they didn't have the data. The data by the Biden administration absolutely dismal.

(CROSSTALK)

WARNER: Who is politicizing? You're saying the Biden administration politicized all the data? Go back to what Senator Cantwell just said.

(CROSSTALK)

WARNER: Go to the Trump surgeon general.

KENNEDY: They fired Dr. -- they fired all the people who questioned the orthodoxy. They fired Dr. Gruber, Dr...

(CROSSTALK)

WARNER: The secretary of health and human services doesn't know how many Americans died from COVID, doesn't know if the vaccine helped prevent any deaths.

(CROSSTALK)

WARNER: And you are sitting as secretary of health and human services? How can you be that ignorant? I remember when we went through the hearing with you. I asked you about community health centers. You didn't know what role they played. I have been visiting community -- I'm glad you got to one, I think in an April.

[11:10:09]

I tell you what I hear on community health centers. They are terrified, with all due respect to my good friend the chairman of the big awful bill, because they are going to lose health care across the board. They already live in food deserts. They can't get to a nutritionist because Medicaid doesn't do enough reimbursement.

If you're going to want Americans to get healthier, should they have access to nutritionists? Should they have access to good science about healthy food?

KENNEDY: Absolutely.

WARNER: Well, then, how is that going to happen with the Medicaid cuts that are taking place?

KENNEDY: There are no cuts to Medicaid.

WARNER: Sir, that is an absurd. There is not a single -- some of my Republican colleagues, but there is not a single study that does not -- and I can tell you, I was in Franklin, Virginia, a couple days ago. The rural hospital is going to close.

The hospital system was so afraid, they wouldn't even let me have the meeting there, but that rural hospital is going to close. And they are looking for where those folks are going to go. I mean, you're supposed to be doing health care policy, not being the doctor in residence for all of America.

I hope -- I can just say, I'm still going to trust my doctor rather than your health advice. And, obviously, Tom Cotton's going to -- who knows who he's going to trust.

But let me go back to policy for a couple seconds, so maybe we can lower the temperature a little bit. I got a bipartisan bill that would be a systemic fix, not a vote-buying mechanism, when Medicaid's getting cut, what was put in on the rural hospitals.

One of the things we could do, Mr. Secretary, is make sure that the folks who work in rural hospitals get an 80 percent reimbursement of what folks get in more urban centers. Would you support that legislation?

KENNEDY: Are you talking about the area wage index?

WARNER: I'm talking about the area wage index and moving that up to 80 percent, so there is actually ability to get rural providers.

KENNEDY: President Trump supports that and we support that.

WARNER: Do you support -- you support. Good. So you will work with us to get that passed?

KENNEDY: Yes.

WARNER: That will increase cost on both Medicare, so you are committed to that. I appreciate that.

What about -- Senator Wyden and I have got a bill, because across America, hospitals are shutting down on their OB-GYN services.

(CROSSTALK)

WARNER: Try to have a baby. I don't know about all my other friends' states, but in South Side Virginia, you can't find a hospital. Will you work with us to make sure that before OB-GYN services are taken out of a rural hospital, there has to be a process and procedure?

KENNEDY: I'm happy to work with you on that, Senator, meet with you and see if we can work with you on it. I don't know exactly what the issue is.

WARNER: Well, again, the secretary of health and human services, who has said he doesn't know how many people died from COVID, doesn't know if the vaccine saved lives, doesn't understand the issue..

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: I said I don't know if it saved a million lives.

WARNER: OB-GYN doctors are fleeing rural America because they can't afford it. And with the cuts that are coming up, it's going to be exponentially worse.

I would invite you, sir, to come with me to a community health center in Virginia and hear what is on people's mind. They want to get healthier, absolutely. Count me in. But they also don't want their basic health care removed.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CRAPO: Senator Lankford.

SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Secretary, good to see you again. As I traveled around Oklahoma during August, it was great to be able to be home, I had several folks that contact me, that we had some great meetings with some real hospitals as well. They're looking forward to the $50 billion from the One Big Beautiful Bill that is targeting towards rural hospitals starting at $10 billion next year.

I know you're quickly getting all the instructions out on that. We know that's in process. It was good to be able to visit with him to be able to talk about that. They're very pleased. Thanks for the work you're doing on that. I also met with some of our groups that do incredible medical research on this.

I know the NIH grants were held for a while and being studied. Those have been released, and grateful to be able to see that because there's some amazing medical research is happening, including some longitudinal studies. They need those dollars released. So, I appreciate you all getting those released out there.

I did hear from a lot of our folks. And I want to talk about one of these issues. From a lot of our hospitals, they immediately raise the issue of Medicare Advantage plans and how they're withholding payments, they're delaying payments back to hospitals, and a problem that's been for rural hospitals.

I know you all are working on that as well. We want to work with you on that. But you and I have spoken on the second issue on that. And it's the pharmacy benefit managers. During the confirmation process, it was interesting. When you and I met in my office, you said every single senator brought up PBMs to you.

And you made the statement during the confirmation process this is an area that President Trump wants to take on, is the pharmacy benefit managers. This is unfinished business in this committee.

[11:15:05]

But I wanted to just know, what is HHS doing at this point on the PBM issue in particular to make sure we're not driving out real pharmacies and what we can do to make sure that's fair?

KENNEDY: Yes. I mean, it's a priority for the president. He talks to me about it I would say at least once a week, sometimes at 11:00 at night. And we have met with the PBMs, and we are in talks with them.

We're also...

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: All right, we're going to continue to monitor this important hearing. It's very, very lively, and I suspect it's going to become even more lively with the following questions once we're going to be hearing from Democratic Senators Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, for example.

That's coming up. Much more of our special breaking news coverage on this testimony from the secretary of health and human services, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:20:38]

BLITZER: The health and human services secretary is being grilled by Democratic Senator Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire right now. I want to listen back in.

KENNEDY: ... how many lives were saved. I don't think anybody knows that because of the data chaos.

SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN (D-NH): So multiple studies have shown that the vaccine reduced infections and severe diseases and saved at least three million lives in the United States and millions more abroad in the first two years of the pandemic.

KENNEDY: It's possible. Those are modeling studies.

(CROSSTALK)

HASSAN: No, I will also note, just as you have been talking about data and concern about it, the process for COVID vaccine approval was public. It was livestreamed and it was out in the

open. Manufacturers and experts have publicly submitted data analysis. And when the FDA has asked for more, they have submitted more. They have done that for years. And the evidence is clear and supports what President Trump has said. The vaccine works and it has saved millions of lives.

Your own process, on the other hand, has not been transparent. You repeatedly choose to ignore data because it doesn't match your preconceived notions and lies. So you have said that the vaccine did save lives. You have said it was a monumental achievement.

And, given that, if you agree with President Trump that the vaccine saved millions of lives, why have you acted behind closed doors to overrule scientists and limit the freedom of parents to choose the COVID vaccine for their children? Why have you done that?

KENNEDY: For the COVID vaccine? That was removed by FDA because they were -- the industry...

(CROSSTALK)

HASSAN: No, it was behind closed doors. And scientists who said they wanted to brief you on the science, scientists who wanted to understand why the FDA, why you unilaterally changed the parameters for giving vaccines, making it possible now, to Senator Cassidy's colleagues' points, that they're going to have to go off-label...

KENNEDY: This is crazy talk. You're just making stuff up.

HASSAN: ... to prescribe the vaccine for children.

I'm not making things up. Do you know how the FDA approval process works and what... (CROSSTALK)

HASSAN: Do you know what an off-label prescription is?

KENNEDY: I know exactly how it works. I know exactly how it works.

HASSAN: So why behind closed doors?

KENNEDY: It's not behind closed doors.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: The industry makes the studies, and they could not provide a study that said that it is effective for healthy kids.

HASSAN: So, when have you produced the data that you relied on and that this FDA relied on to change those parameters? You did it behind closed doors.

KENNEDY: That data -- no, the data is all public.

HASSAN: Now parents who decide that they do want their children to have it...

KENNEDY: You're just making stuff up, Senator.

HASSAN: I'm not making stuff up.

KENNEDY: You're just making stuff up.

HASSAN: Sometimes, when you make an accusation, it's kind of a confession, Mr. Kennedy.

So let's just settle with this.

KENNEDY: I'm happy...

HASSAN: Here's what's going to happen. To Senator Warner's point, to the parents who are concerned all around the country, to people who want to get the COVID vaccine this fall, even if they're under 65, because the boosters have worked, there's been much less serious disease, people do not have the same level of threat and risk from COVID that they used to because of these vaccines, people who want to exercise their freedom of choice are being denied that because you are citing data that you won't produce to the public.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: You're just making things up. You're making things up to scare people. And it's a lie.

(CROSSTALK)'

HASSAN: With respect, I do not think I'm the one making things up.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. KENNEDY: You are lying right now, Senator.

CRAPO: Senator Barrasso.

SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Secretary, thanks for being with us today.

I believe one of President Trump's greatest achievements was his bold and successful actions on COVID. When faced with a global pandemic, he didn't back down. He was determined to find a cure and through Operation Warp Speed, the vaccine was developed and distributed quickly, safely, effectively, and I believe it saved many, many lives.

I think it's a model of American ingenuity and public-private partnership. But this wasn't the first time an American president acted boldly to address disease and vaccines. There's a great book that's out. It's a prize-winning book called "The Fate of the Day" by Rick Atkinson. And he talks about the courageous efforts by George Washington.

[11:25:00]

During the Revolutionary War, George Washington reversed his opposition to the smallpox vaccine, and he ordered that all the soldiers be vaccinated. It was among the most consequential decisions Washington would ever make.

By protecting his troops from smallpox, Washington preserved the Continental Army, which allowed our nation to continue to fight for our independence. And like President Trump, I believe President Washington acted decisively to protect Americans' lives at a time of great national peril.

So, over the last 50 years, vaccines are estimated to have saved 154 million lives worldwide. I support vaccines. I'm a doctor. Vaccines work.

Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I have grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks, leadership at the National Institute of Health questioning the use of mRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention fired.

Americans don't know who to rely on. Recent polls said 89 percent of voters, 81 percent of Trump voters agree vaccine recommendations should come from trained physicians, scientists, public health experts. So they believe, Senator Marshall, Senator Cassidy, they believe me when it comes to vaccines.

If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined. So could you explain what steps you're going to be taking to ensure vaccine guidance is clear, evidence-based, and trustworthy?

KENNEDY: We're going to make it clear, evidence-based, and trustworthy for the first time in history.

For most -- right now, you know, when I was a kid, I got three vaccines. I was fully compliant. Today's children have to get between 69 and 92 vaccines in order to be fully compliant between maternity and 18 years. Only one of those 19 vaccines, 92 doses, only one of those vaccines that have been tested against an inert placebo.

And what we're doing now is, any new vaccine that, before it's approved and licensed, will have to show, demonstrate safety against inert placebo. And we're going to go back and do observational studies on the existing vaccines to see if they're linked to any of these chronic disease epidemics, so that people can understand the risk profile of those products and make good assessments for their own health.

BARRASSO: So, in two weeks, vaccine experts at the CDC are going to meet to discuss childhood vaccine recommendations. Parents and physicians depend upon this guidance to make decisions and to keep kids safe.

And, as I said, I support vaccines. I have been hearing from many of my medical colleagues, people I have known from medical school, residency, and when I practiced medicine in Wyoming, and there are real concerns that safe, proven vaccines like measles, like hepatitis B and others could be in jeopardy. And that would put Americans at risk and reverse decades of progress.

As we have seen over the last four years, the previous administration, four years, when recommendations became politicized or were swayed by bias, that the public trust can be lost. So what safeguards are in place to ensure decisions are based solely on science and not politics?

And how are you going to make sure doctors and parents can count on CDC guidance?

KENNEDY: I mean, Senator, I would point this out. Right now, there's only 10 percent of children are complying with the CDC's recommendation on COVID boosters, only 15 percent of health care workers. So Americans have lost faith in CDC, and we need to restore that faith.

And we're going to do that by telling the truth and not through propaganda, by making them understand that everything that we say is true, that we're going to tell them what we know. We're going to tell them what we don't know. And we're going to tell them what we're researching and how we're doing it. We're going to be transparent.

It's the only way to restore trust in the agency, by making it trustworthy.

BARRASSO: Finally, with chronic diseases, like you, I'm committed to addressing our nation's growing rate of chronic diseases. I think if we're going to make America healthy again, we need to support rural primary care providers that play a role. As a rural physician, I want to make sure we can prevent and manage chronic diseases in their communities.

And I ask for you to continue to work with us specifically with regard to rural health.

KENNEDY: Thank you, Congressman.

CRAPO: Senator Daines.

SEN. STEVE DAINES (R-MT): Chairman Crapo, thank you.

Secretary Kennedy, welcome. It's good to see you here again.

I want to begin my time by talking about the issue of federal deregulation of chemical abortion drugs. Since mifepristone was approved in 2000, 25 years ago, the FDA has steadily stripped away safeguards related to the -- this drug, no longer requiring a doctor's prescription.