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The Situation Room

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Testifies Before Senate. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired September 04, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

SEN. STEVE DAINES (R-MT): Since mifepristone was approved in 2000, 25 years ago, the FDA has steadily stripped away safeguards related to the -- this drug, no longer requiring a doctor's prescription, no follow-up visits, no adverse event reporting, and now allowing it to be sent through the mail.

Earlier this year, there was a new study and analyzed 865,000 real- world insurance claims, and it found that nearly 11 percent of women experienced a serious adverse event within 45 days of taking mifepristone.

To put that in perspective, that is 22 times higher than the FDA's longstanding estimate of less than 0.5 percent. While these findings alone are shocking, my conversations with those in the medical profession, credible medical professionals, lead me to believe that even this study may indeed underrepresent the scale of the problem.

For years, we have heard the misleading and, frankly, very harmful lie that's being sold to women that this drug is, and I quote, "safe as Tylenol." These lies, sadly, have real-world consequences.

Just last year, two women died as a result of taking chemical abortion pills because they were able to access them without appropriate medical oversight, and, by the way, that's all allowed by the FDA.

Mr. Secretary, I am grateful that you and FDA Commissioner Makary have already begun the process of reviewing this new data on the safety of mifepristone. We talked about this during your confirmation hearing. The question is, could you provide any updates on the status and the scope of that review and whether the FDA intends to replicate studies like the one that I referenced?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: I think those are -- I don't know if they're going to do an insurance claim study. That's one way to do it. I don't know exactly whether they're doing epidemiological studies or observational studies.

I don't know exactly what they're doing, but I know -- I talked to Marty Makary about it yesterday. And he said those studies are progressing and that they're ongoing. So I will keep your office informed at every stage.

DAINES: Thank you. And I have had a really constructive conversation with the FDA

commissioner as well, Makary. And, I mean, here's a very smart, data- focused, sincere type of leader. We had a really good conversation. And I want to encourage those conversations with you, Mr. Secretary, and that we -- there's a follow-up here to make sure that the data that we now have exposed...

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: All right, we're going to continue to monitor this important hearing before the Senate Finance Committee.

Much more coming up right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:38:06]

BLITZER: Republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin is asking questions of the secretary of health and human services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Let's continue to watch.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): ... conducted.

And when they conducted it, they said, oh, no, matter what the results are, we're going to release this. They got the results in 2000. It is yet to be released. We're going to enter that in the record on Tuesday.

Do you want to just talk about what you have witnessed in terms of the capture of the agencies that you're now in charge of, the corruption of science, which I believe you just said that is almost your number one goal, right, is try to bring integrity and credibility back to science, which has been corrupted by the people who pay for it, by federal health agencies being captured by pharmaceutical industries, by big pharma, by big food?

Just I want to give you, I'm sorry, just the last minute to, first of all, defend yourself, but talk about the corruption of science that you're having to deal with and trying to correct.

KENNEDY: Yes, I mean, I will just give you one example. And I could sit here and give you thousands.

In 2002, CDC did an internal study of Atlanta and Fulton County, Georgia, children and looked at children who got the MMR vaccine on time and compared those to kids who got them later, so, in other words, kids who got them before 36 months and kids who got them afterward.

The data from that study showed that black boys who got the vaccine on time had a 260 percent greater chance of getting an autism diagnosis than children who waited. The chief scientist on that, Dr. William Thompson, the senior vaccine safety scientist at CDC, was ordered to come into a room with four other co-authors by his boss, Frank DeStefano, who's the head of the immunization safety branch, and ordered to destroy that data.

[11:40:05]

And then they published it without that fact. So you know that story. I know that story and you know of hundreds of stories like that. It happens all the time. We are being lied to by these agencies. And we're going to change that right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)

JOHNSON: It's going to be out of business. I just want to enter that in the record as well.

SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): Without objection.

The committee will take a five-minute, quick break here just to allow just a moment of reset here, and then we will be start right back up again in about five minutes.

BLITZER: All right, the committee is in recess now for five minutes, as we just heard from the chairman, Mike Crapo, the Republican chairman from Idaho, where we're continuing to monitor this.

We will have special live coverage as soon as they resume this hearing. It's been very, very intense, the questioning, not just from the Democratic senators, but also from a few of the Republican senators has been intense. And the secretary of health and human services has had a rough time answering so many of those questions.

I want to bring in the former CDC Chief Medical Officer Dr. Debra Houry and former Baltimore Health Commissioner Dr. Leana Wen.

To both of you, thank you once again for listening, for monitoring what's going on?

Dr. Houry, let me start with you.

You were one of those CDC officials who recently resigned in protest over Secretary Kennedy's leadership. I want to play what he said about the staff shakeups that he's ordered. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: Finally, I would like to address the recent shakeups at CDC.

These changes were absolutely necessary adjustments to restore the agency to its role as the world's gold standard public health agency, with a central mission of protecting Americans from chronic -- from infectious disease.

CDC failed that responsibility miserably during COVID, when its disastrous and nonsensical policies destroyed small businesses, violated civil liberties, closed our schools, caused generational damage in doing so, masked infants with no science, and heightened economic inequality.

And yet all those oppressive and unscientific interventions failed to do anything about the disease itself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Dr. Houry, you're the former CDC chief medical officer. What's your response to what we just heard?

DR. DEBRA HOURY, FORMER CDC CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: So many thoughts.

And I think what I would say too is I, was actually leading the Trump drug overdose work at the CDC, and not COVID at the beginning of COVID. If the secretary had met with any of the senior leaders, he would actually know our backgrounds. Of the four who resigned, two came in during COVID from local and state health departments, and so actually weren't even there at the beginning of COVID, as he is blaming them.

I also just think it's so important to realize, he would know more about the data and the programs if he'd ever had a briefing from any of the senior scientists, myself included. I have never briefed him on COVID, on measles, on H5N1, or vaccines.

BLITZER: Dr. Wen, you and I often spoke during the COVID pandemic, as I'm sure you remember. You heard Secretary Kennedy call the CDC's response to the coronavirus pandemic a failure. In a recent op-ed, he argued that public trust in the CDC has been, in his word, squandered.

Is there any validity at all to those arguments?

DR. LEANA WEN, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: Well, I think that the trust in the CDC is certainly waning now, but it's not because of the dedicated scientists who work there or who worked there, like Dr. Houry.

And I do want to take a moment just to commend her and her team and all of her colleagues for their tremendous dedication and hard work. But the trust in the CDC is waning now because specifically of the actions of Secretary Kennedy.

Listening to this hearing, it's so infuriating, because there's false information being given throughout. And it's very difficult, because you want to, on the one hand, try to reconcile some of Secretary Kennedy's -- what he had said before in his confirmation hearings. He specifically talked about not wanting to take away access from people for vaccines.

He promised not to fire the members of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. These are all things that he has specifically gone against. And to hear him trying to defend them and obfuscate with, again, inaccurate information is just -- is incredibly infuriating.

But I think most infuriating is the specific attacks on the individuals who have worked so hard and are dedicating themselves to protecting public health.

BLITZER: He's been answering questions and making statements for about 90 minutes, at least so far, Dr. Houry. What has so far stood out to you?

[11:45:02]

HOURY: You know, he was just talking about the MMR study in Atlanta. That has been debunked so many times.

And I think, like Dr. Wen just said, continuing to promote misinformation on vaccines is not helpful. I remember, in the middle of the measles outbreak, he was talking about the vaccine having fetal parts in it. And that is patently false. We don't need a secretary who's promoting misinformation.

In fact, the shooter who had violently attacked CDC believed it was because of the COVID vaccine. Misinformation has significant consequences, and we don't need the health secretary to continue to say things that are incorrect.

BLITZER: All right, Dr. Deb Houry and Dr. Leana Wen, to both of you, thank you very much. Stick around. We will have more analysis, of course, coming up.

I want to go back to the hearing right now.

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): One partial avenue of relief for Rhode Island is the AHEAD program. Rhode Island is a willing, voluntary participant in the AHEAD program.

Coming behind Rhode Island is Connecticut. What remains to be seen is whether the payment rates agreed to for Rhode Island will suffer the same discriminatory discount with respect to the AHEAD rates for Connecticut as Connecticut comes through.

I have been able to get no assurances from CMS that they care one whit about this payment differential or that they see AHEAD as a means of resolving this injustice.

Mr. Kennedy, our health care system is teetering as a result of this. This is not a casual matter. And I would really like to see you and Dr. Oz and Mr. Dutton (ph) put your attention onto this Rhode Island problem.

There is no conceivable justification for paying a hospital in Fall River 23 percent more than Rhode Island Hospital, when Rhode Island Hospital provides more and better services, as recognized by the Secret Service, which will take an injured president from Martha's Vineyard to the Rhode Island Hospital Trauma Center, flying right over Saint Anne's Hospital in fall River, yet Fall River gets paid more.

It makes no sense and it has to be resolved. The other problem that I mentioned to you is that I'm now in my fourth round of CMMI directors. It's bloody Groundhog Day trying to get something done about how end- of-life patients are treated. I am offering Rhode Island as a willing example of how we can do it better.

It is idiotic and cruel to force a family to put their dying loved one through three days and two nights of a hospital before they can put them in a nursing home. It is equally ridiculous to not allow palliative and curative care to happen together, providing home care when someone is dying.

BLITZER: Senator Sheldon Whitehouse speaking right now of Rhode Island.

I want to take a quick break, resume our special coverage right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:52:48]

BLITZER: All right, let's resume our special coverage of this hearing that's going on in Washington right now. Let's watch.

KENNEDY: What we found is that there are actually -- the negotiations that have occurred actually have ended up raising the cost for medical care.

We are right now in negotiations.

SEN. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO (D-NV): The CBO has not agreed to that. The CBO doesn't say that. It says just the opposite. So you're saying the CBO and independent agencies that validate the costs are wrong?

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: That is what's -- that is CMS data.

(CROSSTALK)

CORTEZ MASTO: OK, so let's just focus on the cancer drugs. Why aren't we negotiating those and bringing those down for families? Why does the bill exempt those?

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: It's part of the MFN negotiations. I'm not sure that provision in the bill, of One Beautiful Bill, but the...

CORTEZ MASTO: You're not sure of the provision, the negotiation provision, and how exempt...

(CROSSTALK)

CORTEZ MASTO: Your agency is responsible for that negotiation, and you don't know about it?

KENNEDY: I know that we're negotiating in the MFN negotiations.

CORTEZ MASTO: Let me ask you this, Mr. Secretary. Let me ask you another question.

How much are Medicare Part D enrollees expected to pay for prescription drug coverage next year? KENNEDY: I think that is in debate right now.

CORTEZ MASTO: Let me tell you.

KENNEDY: Are you talking about the rate?

CORTEZ MASTO: They are going to pay $15 more than last year, up to $50 a month.

KENNEDY: Yes.

CORTEZ MASTO: Now, let me have a question for you on Part B. How much are Medicare Part B premiums expected to increase next year?

KENNEDY: I don't know. I talked to Dr. Oz about it yesterday. I think it's 16 percent.

CORTEZ MASTO: So, that is about -- they're supposed to increase about 11.6 percent, or $21.50 more each month.

And, again, last time you were before me, you couldn't answer the questions of the very agency and the authority that you have to address these issues. Next year, seniors and families are facing higher health care costs across the board; 23 million people on Medicare with a stand-alone Part D drug plan could see their premiums rise to $50 a month, up from $35, because the Trump administration is cutting the federal subsidy that has been keeping costs down.

[11:55:00]

Part B premiums will jump 11.6 percent to $206 a month in 2026, one of the largest single-year increases in decades. And so for an administration that claims it is lowering costs, my question to you is, what are you going to do to keep costs down for seniors?

KENNEDY: I mean, I'm already doing what I -- I'm already keeping costs down.

CORTEZ MASTO: What are you doing to keep costs down for seniors, knowing that these costs are going to be increasing?

KENNEDY: I mean, the program integrity bill that is the first action that I did when I got in, it's one of the earliest actions in history of a complex regulation by an HHS secretary.

A Congressional Budget Office has said that that's brought premiums down by 5 percent. That is the Congressional Budget Office, which does not like to acknowledge anything that we do.

CORTEZ MASTO: And does that impact seniors?

KENNEDY: Excuse me?

CORTEZ MASTO: Does that impact seniors? And I know my time is running out. Does that impact seniors, what you just talked about? You're lowering costs. I'm asking you specifically. KENNEDY: We're lowering costs.

(CROSSTALK)

CORTEZ MASTO: .. seniors. Does it impact seniors?

KENNEDY: Does it impact...

CORTEZ MASTO: Let me just stop.

KENNEDY: I didn't hear what you said.

CORTEZ MASTO: Time is running out. So, I appreciate the chairman's indulgence here.

My concern is, you can't answer the questions of the very agency that has oversight over these issues and controls the levers to lower costs for seniors. And you can't answer that simple question.

KENNEDY: I didn't hear your question.

SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): OK. Let's go.

CRAPO: We will just proceed. And Senator Tillis has yielded his position to Senator Blackburn.

So, she will take it.

BLACKBURN: And thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And, Mr. Secretary, thank you for joining us today.

I appreciate the comments you have made about the Rural Health Transformation Program. That is something many of us worked on. And we were pleased to push that out of this committee. And I know Dr. Oz is moving forward with implementing that. I appreciate your comments to Senator Warner on the area wage index.

He and I have worked on fixing that. And we appreciate your attention. I am delighted to know that you're going to end the revolving door in the conflicts of interest. I have found it so unseemly that people who work with a pharmaceutical or with a big food company then go back over into CDC or NIH or FDA, and then they're signing off on regulation for their former employer and many times their future employer. So we appreciate that.

Senator Lankford went to you on the PBMs. And as you are aware, my PBM Act that Senator Wyden worked with me on, that made it out of this committee last cycle. And making certain that we keep these rural pharmacies open, making certain that PBMs do not profit above what is their standard service fee, and that they have to disclose all their pricing, that is going to be an imperative.

So will you work with us to get that PBM legislation across the finish line and to the president's desk?

KENNEDY: Yes, Senator, absolutely.

BLACKBURN: Thank you.

Interoperability is something that you have announced, a new interoperability framework to better align data sharing principles. And this is important to digital health. And as you're aware, when we passed 21st Century Cures in 2018, the Software Act and that health I.T. definition is something that I worked tirelessly on to get implemented.

So what I want to hear from you is, how does CMS plan to align this new framework with the existing federal framework? And how are we going to be able to move forward with one national policy on interoperability?

KENNEDY: Well, I don't know if we -- you know, what we have right now is concrete commitments from the 60 top tech companies who we were able to convene to do data sharing, to do patient accessibility, and to do interoperability.

But I can't tell you how that's going to mesh with the...

BLACKBURN: Then, if you will have someone submit to me in writing what that pathway is, this is something that is essential if we're going to be able to benefit from that data. So, having some specificity on the pathway will be helpful.

I did want to talk with you. Last time, you were here, I talked about the concerns on overprescribing prescription stimulant drugs for children.