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The Situation Room

Kissing Bug Disease; Trump Sues 'The New York Times'; Online Radicalization. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired September 16, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, we have obtained some new audio here in THE SITUATION ROOM. And a warning: It is disturbing.

Yesterday, a Utah state Democratic lawmaker told us she was scared to appear on our show because of the anger over Charlie Kirk's killing in her home state. She says, the day after the conservative activist was shot, Democrats in the Utah Statehouse received a threatening voice- mail from an unidentified male caller.

Listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just wanted to pass a long message to you guys. You should leave the (expletive deleted) state. You should find somewhere else to (expletive deleted) live, you murderous, terrorist animals, you despicable (expletive deleted) subhuman (expletive deleted) violent, disgusting (expletive deleted) animals.

You murdered that man in front of his (expletive deleted) family, you evil (expletive deleted) pieces of (expletive deleted) subhuman (expletive deleted) garbage.

Now, I don't even want to see the (expletive deleted) color blue in the state of Utah ever again. I'm going to burn everything blue in my entire (expletive deleted) house.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROWN: Wow.

Let's take a closer look at this explosion of incendiary rhetoric.

Jen Golbeck is a computer science professor at the University of Maryland. She is also the director of MPS Data Journalism, focusing on social media, privacy and trust on the Web. And Jean Twenge is a social psychologist and professor at San Diego State University. She is also the author of "10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World." Thank you both for joining us. I think this is a really important

conversation.

So, Jean, you just heard that really disturbing voice-mail. Now, we don't know the circumstances around the person who left that, but, generally, how has social media helped create so much hate across the political spectrum?

JEAN TWENGE, SAN DIEGO STATE UNIVERSITY: Social media really amplifies extreme viewpoints.

And you take especially someone like the shooter, who's 22, this is how he has grown up, with so many political discussions only being held online. And this is, in many cases, the only exposure that people have to political viewpoints.

And it's not the same as having a face-to-face conversation and talking to people in real life, because, on social media, anything that's extreme, that makes people angry, that especially is about the other group of people, the other political party, it's inflamed.

It gets shared more widely and it really ends up being this culture of extreme viewpoints.

BROWN: And I think it's important to note availability bias, right? Because, depending on what you're exposed to, you're just seeing a sliver.

And, Jennifer, to that point, you look at political extremism from all sides. What have you seen in the way of, for example, the so-called celebration of Kirk's death, where it's coming from and how representative it actually is of people who are online?

JENNIFER GOLBECK, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Yes, so there's definitely been tweets that celebrated Charlie Kirk's death. But there was this big backlash from the right against that that greatly expanded what counted as a celebratory tweet.

So there are people who didn't like Charlie Kirk, who found his politics damaging, who didn't really celebrate the assassination, but who did share direct quotes of his, no context, no other commentary. And the reaction from the right was to say those were also celebratory tweets.

And so there are some absolutely that were happy about his death and said so. But it's hard to gauge just how many that was, because the big collections of tens of thousands of people that have been alleged to be celebrating it, most of them were not. They, in fact, sometimes are explicitly saying, he shouldn't have been killed this way,but also he was really damaging and I'm not necessarily going to mourn his death.

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So the reaction to it has been, I think, outsized to the number of tweets that were really doing the celebration.

BROWN: And just to follow up with that, Jennifer, do you see radicalization on one side of the political spectrum more than the other, based on your research, or is it pretty evenly spread?

GOLBECK: We see radicalization across social media. We see it on the left, on the right, and then apolitical radicalization, which we can think of things like incels, this kind of misogynistic hate group, but that doesn't fall on the left or right of the political spectrum, this kind of nihilistic radicalization that we do see a little bit in the shooter with the little bit that we know.

And it's more amplified on the right at this point because it's become a little bit more mainstream on the right. But there's radicalization all around and outside of politics online.

BROWN: And we know that algorithms are tweaked. They are amplified to draw the greatest engagement as well.

Jean, if you could just speak a little bit to that and how that plays into this volatile atmosphere we're seeing online.

TWENGE: Absolutely.

So the algorithms on social media are designed to increase what the companies call engagement, what some people would call addiction, or just more time spent, more time on the app, coming back to the app more often.

And what tends to drive that engagement in many cases is whatever gets attention. And just our human brains are attracted to anything that's unusual or that provokes us, makes us angry. And so that ends up spreading a lot further.

And when you're thinking about a kid or a teenager, that's even more true. So when our kids and teens are spending so much time online, they're being exposed to a lot of these radical and extreme ideas, particularly because their brains are really attuned to seek out those things that are unusual or disturbing.

BROWN: And it just worries me what it does to those brains, right, that are still developing and how it can rewire them.

And on that note, Jennifer, what does it do to the brains for these kids, these young people who are on these underground meme and gaming part of this culture? I think a lot of us are learning more about this underground gaming culture from the suspect in Charlie Kirk's killing, who allegedly was part of this.

Help us better understand this culture and how pervasive it is among young people.

GOLBECK: Yes, so there's a huge number of young people who are in these Discord servers, in these online gaming sites.

Now, the culture is going to vary depending on what the game is, but what we see in certain parts of those cultures, and this sort of builds on what Jean just said, is that there's this push towards saying things that are extreme because they're engaging.

And if we look at unmoderated Internet spaces, this includes these gaming spaces, Discord servers, also sites like 4chan that are not really moderated, the more shocking, the more violent or aggressive or outside social norms content is, the more it's celebrated on those platforms.

And so it can lead people down this path that we see in a more general way on mainstream social media where there's just bad faith engagement. We're not trying to have discussions and come to agreements. What we're trying to do is shock and make the other side look bad.

BROWN: Yes, it's really disturbing.

And also there's this own unique language, right? I mean, in the Charlie Kirk killing, some of it was -- these memes were written on the shell casings. Tell us more about that if you would, Jennifer.

GOLBECK: Yes, early on, shortly after the shooting, we saw, OK, they found these shell casings, they had these inscriptions on them, and they were cast as pro-trans, anti-fascist, and they were taken out of the context, which, of course, we can't expect the law enforcement to know the context of these online gaming communities necessarily.

But people who are deep in those spaces can add this whole context around it. And I think we all can think of that, if we're a fan of a sports team, there's a saying that goes with that maybe people who don't know the team don't understand. They know the song.

So there's this internal culture. And if we have these kind of meme- like references coming out, people who aren't in those spaces may interpret them at face value, when they have a really, like, much deeper and more specific meaning within those communities.

And I think what we're going to see as we see increasingly these shooters and perpetrators of mass violence that were radicalized online is that we're going to need people in law enforcement spaces who are Gen Z, who are younger millennials, who spend a ton of time in those spaces and can add that social context to understand the meaning.

BROWN: That's a really important point.

Jennifer Golbeck, Jean Twenge, thank you for helping us better understand what's going on online and how it's impacting young people.

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We will be right back.

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BLITZER: New this morning, President Trump is suing "The New York Times" for $15 billion. He's alleging defamation and accusing the newspaper of being a -- quote -- "virtual mouthpiece for the Democratic Party.

The $15 billion Trump wants is more than The New York Times Company net -- the company's net worth.

BROWN: All right, let's go to CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter to put this all in perspective.

Tell us more about this lawsuit and how it fits into the broader landscape of Trump's lawsuits against media.

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BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: The president wants to punish publishers for writing stories he does not like.

And in this case he may want to bankrupt "The New York Times" because, as you all just said, this claim about damages, $15 billion, it exceeds the market cap of The New York Times Company. Now, First Amendment lawyers are reading through this lawsuit this morning. They're already calling this a frivolous and nuisance lawsuit, suggesting it's more of a P.R. stunt than a serious case.

The 85-page lawsuit, it says that Trump is trying to -- quote -- "restore integrity to journalism." But I think people should read it for themselves and recognize that it's really part of a presidential strategy to silence critical news coverage and try to curb free speech by filing these sorts of lawsuits.

We have seen this against ABC, against CBS, against "The Wall Street Journal" and now against "The New York Times." And here's what renowned First Amendment attorney Floyd Abrams told CNN this morning after he read the lawsuit.

He said -- quote -- "This suit is ridiculous as a matter of law, but it's extraordinarily dangerous as a matter of national policy." He says; "It threatens core First Amendment principles in a manner unique in our history."

As for "The New York Times," the company says: "The lawsuit has no merit, it lacks any legitimate legal claims and instead is an attempt to stifle and discourage independent reporting." "The Times" says it will not be deterred by intimidation tactics.

In other words "The Times" not going to settle like ABC and CBS did last year and earlier this year.

BLITZER: You know, Brian, it's interesting because we also heard from President Trump just a little while ago speaking with reporters on the South Lawn of the White House. Tell us about that.

STELTER: And he made a pretty dramatic threat toward an ABC reporter, actually referring to ABC's past settlement. There's been this debate in recent hours about hate speech being free speech, with A.G. Pam Bondi suggesting that it is not. Trump was asked about that by ABC's Jon Karl and here's the exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT AND CO-ANCHOR OF "THIS WEEK": What do you think? Pam Bondi is saying she's going to go after hate speech. Is that -- I mean, a lot of people, a lot of your allies say hate speech is free speech.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She will probably go after people like you, because you treat me so unfairly. It's hate. You have a lot of hate in your heart.

KARL: Would that be appropriate?

TRUMP: Maybe they will come after ABC. Well, ABC paid me $16 million recently for a form of hate speech, right? Your company paid me $16 million for a form of hate speech. So maybe they will have to go after you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: Trump is speaking emotionally there, not legally, but his comments show a total lack of respect and understanding of the First Amendment in the United States.

This is really about constitutional law. So telling a reporter -- quote -- "Maybe they will have to go after you" is an abuse of power by the president. While it may seem like par for the course from Trump, we have heard his anti-press commentary for many years now, it is still notable today, and it's part of the chill in the air, especially in the aftermath of the Kirk assassination.

We see a real argument, a real debate about free speech emerging in recent days. And just to be clear, hate speech, although quite objectionable, oftentimes gross and grotesque, hate speech is generally protected by the First Amendment.

BROWN: Right. There are exceptions to that. There's incitement, true threats, but, as you said, hate speech is generally protected.

Brian Stelter, thank you so much -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Pamela, coming up, the so-called missing -- the so-called kissing bug disease, it sounds harmless enough, but it could be very dangerous and it's a growing problem.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta standing by to join us live in THE SITUATION ROOM with everything we need to know right now. That's next.

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BROWN: All right, new this morning, researchers say the so-called kissing bug disease is now endemic in the U.S. and they warn it can be extremely dangerous and needs more attention from doctors and the public.

BLITZER: All right, we're paging CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, about this.

Sanjay's new book, by the way, is called "It Doesn't Have to Hurt: Your Smart Guide to a Pain-Free Life," excellent new book.

Sanjay, we're going to have you on soon to talk about the book.

But, right now, I know you have seen a lot of headlines about this kissing disease lately.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BLITZER: What exactly is it? And remind our viewers what it means when something is endemic.

GUPTA: Yes, when you call it kissing disease, it doesn't sound so bad, right? I mean, but this is Chagas disease, C-H-A-G-A-S disease, that we're talking about. A lot of people probably never heard of it, for good reason, because this has mostly been sort of a tropical disease in Mexico and rural Mexico and Central America, South America.

But take a look at this map. As weather has gotten warmer around the world, you're starting to see tropical diseases migrate to the north. So there's eight states, at least now, where you're seeing human cases of this kissing bug disease, or Chagas disease.

And that's the concern. When you call something endemic, it basically means the disease is within those spaces, as opposed to someone travels to another place and brings it back home. So people are getting the infection in those places.

Incidentally, it's called kissing bug diseases, because these bugs, I don't know if we have an image of it, but they're about a half-an-inch to an inch in size, and they typically will bite you on the face. That's where it gets its name.

And sometimes it will leave a parasite that can then find its way into your body, especially if you scratch at the bite, that parasite sort of gets embedded in your skin, and that's what causes the infection in the first place. So it's becoming more common. They think about 280,000 people in the United States are now contracting it every year.

BROWN: So then how do you know if you have the disease?

GUPTA: Yes, it can be challenging, especially in the beginning of it, because it can mimic other things. You may get fever, you may get headache. A lot of people may not have any symptoms whatsoever.

But take a look at these images of something known as a chagoma. This is the type of rash that someone might get on their skin, again, not really clear, but you can get a sense. It's a raised, sort of red rash. But, often, again, because it happens near the face, people might rub their eyes and they will get something that looks like that.

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This is a particular sign associated with Chagas disease. Again, people who live in Central America, they are very familiar with this. This is something they have seen before, but we're starting to see it more and more here as well.

BLITZER: Sanjay, how can we protect ourselves? And are there any other diseases we may not be thinking about right now that we also need to protect ourselves from this time of year?

GUPTA: Yes, these kissing bugs are nocturnal. That's one thing to keep in mind. They typically tend to bite at night. They typically tend to come from outdoors to indoors through cracks around your doors and stuff like that, so making sure you seal those cracks.

There are two other things to sort of be aware of this time of year. So, Chagas caused by this parasite we were just talking about. West Nile, mosquito-borne, a virus, and Lyme disease, a bacteria spread by ticks.

One thing I will point out, guys, West Nile wasn't a thing in this country until 1999. There was that big outbreak in New York in 1999, and now it's all over the country. You can see how quickly some of these new pathogens can become endemic.

BROWN: Yes.

BLITZER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, as always, thank you. Thank you so much.

GUPTA: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Sanjay.

And thank you all for joining us. We will see you back here tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. Eastern.

BLITZER: "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" is coming up right after a short break.