Return to Transcripts main page

The Situation Room

Interview With Former President of CNN Tom Johnson; Michigan Shooting Investigation; Interview With Chicago, Illinois, Mayor Brandon Johnson. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired September 30, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:03]

BRANDON JOHNSON (D), MAYOR OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS: Just this last weekend, we had two public schoolteachers detained by ICE. We had the incident that you just referred to in a suburb right outside of the city of Chicago.

We had a CBS reporter who had pepper balls shot at her while she was just simply doing her job and tear gas being spread throughout these individuals who are protesting and resisting these what we are clear about egregious acts and overreach of the Constitution.

And so we're very firm in the city of Chicago about protecting all residents. And I have put forth a couple of executive orders to do just that. There is no one in this city that believes that what this president is doing is on the behalf of working people in our city.

BLITZER: Mayor Johnson, I want to play something President Trump said last hour as he addressed senior U.S. military officers at the Marine base at Quantico, Virginia. Listen to this. Then I will get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's really a very important mission. And I told Pete we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, National Guard, but military, because we're going into Chicago very soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Mayor, what's your reaction to that?

B. JOHNSON: This is absolutely appalling.

This president is an unstable human being. And it's right for this moment to check him. And we're calling on Congress to do its job. There's no way that anyone in this country should be OK with armed, militarized troops being sent to cities.

These individuals, these brave women and men who sign up to serve and protect this country, they do not do it with being deployed against American citizens and residents in mind. This is not only appalling, but this is, quite frankly, an egregious attempt to undermine the sanctity of our democracy.

BLITZER: As you know, Mayor Johnson, Illinois, your state, has joined several other states in a lawsuit to -- quote -- "stop the Trump administration from unlawfully reallocating federal homeland security funding away from states based on their compliance with the administration's political agenda." That's a direct quote.

Are there any plans to sue the administration over the troop deployment, as we have seen happen with Oregon, for example?

B. JOHNSON: Absolutely.

Whether it's litigation or let legislation or whether it's through executive orders or even protests, we're going to use every single tool that is available to us. Look, Wolf, this administration cannot be trusted. It's the same administration who put someone in charge who took a $50,000 bribe to move contracts into the hands of private detention facilities; $2.8 million of campaign contributions have been made towards this president.

And these detention centers are ultimately using this moment to turn a profit. This president is more interested in protecting the interests of the ultra-rich than actual working people. He's done nothing to lower the prices of rent, housing, health care, access to education.

What he has done essentially is the antithesis to what we're building In Chicago, the safest, most affordable big city in America, building more affordable homes, making sure we're investing in our young people, investing in education and mental and behavioral health care. We have driven violence down in the city of Chicago. Homicides are down 30 percent. Shooting, shooting victims are down 35 percent.

A lot of work to do. If this president was serious about supporting American cities, he would not be defunding the very institutions that ultimately work to satisfy the interests of working people. That's what we're doing in Chicago. That's what we're calling on this president to focus in on.

BLITZER: Mayor Brandon Johnson, I love Chicago. I have spent a lot of time over there over the years.

Good luck to you. Good luck to all the folks in Chicago. Thanks very much for joining us.

B. JOHNSON: You're welcome.

And go, Cubs.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: Pamela.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: All right, still ahead right here in THE SITUATION ROOM, new information about the Michigan church gunman, his chilling encounter with a city council candidate just days before that deadly shooting. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:39:03]

BROWN: Well, new this morning, we are learning that the man who killed four people Sunday at a Michigan church harbored deep resentment towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And the grudge stem from a breakup with a religious girlfriend more than a decade ago.

Also, police say all the victims -- you're seeing pictures from the attack -- are now accounted for. This is one of the victims, John Bond. According to a GoFundMe created by his family, Bond was a Navy veteran and was a well-known and loved member of his family and active in his community. He loves spending time with his family and grandkids.

Let's go to CNN security correspondent Josh Campbell.

Josh, take us through some of this new information that we're learning about the attacker.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, just a horrific incident, obviously, as people were in church on Sunday whenever this attack unfolded.

Everything we're learning about this suspect is more and more disturbing. We know this was a 40-year-old former Marine Corps veteran who had served time in Iraq. But we're also hearing from people who had encounters with the individual.

[11:40:02]

Take a listen here to one person. This was a man who was running for local office there in the area. He was out door-knocking, as candidates do, came across this individual. Here's what he told CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRIS JOHNS, ENCOUNTERED SHOOTER: He did make the statement that Mormons are the Antichrist, which is a shocking statement. And, again, you're -- this is somebody you're just meeting for the first time. There was anger. It was a longstanding anger that I just -- I'm speculating.

But what he did took planning. It also took real motivation and real anger to ultimately do what he did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: Now, we had heard earlier that the individual had some type of animus towards the LDS Church. That was coming from the White House spokesperson. But hearing from that man himself, who does what candidates do all the

time -- they go, they door-knock. He said he had visited thousands of residents. He never had an encounter quite like this, where someone just brings up unprompted their disdain for the Mormon Church.

So the investigation into him continues. Obviously, the shooter is deceased. I'm told that the search for victims at the scene of the church where that fire engulfed the building, that has now concluded. Everyone has been accounted for. However, they're still scouring that rubble looking for any evidence about what may have set off that fire.

And obviously the investigation behind the scenes continues into the specific motive here, guys.

BROWN: All right, Josh Campbell, thanks so much.

Well, just ahead right here in THE SITUATION ROOM: He had a front-row seat to history while working at the White House and running CNN, and he's reflecting on it all in a brand-new book. Former president of CNN and our friend here in THE SITUATION ROOM Tom Johnson and longtime CNN anchor Judy Woodruff joins us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:46:05]

BROWN: Well, we are just hours away from a government shutdown here in Washington, a state of affairs our next two guests have seen many times over their decades in journalism.

BLITZER: This is something very special, very personal for the two of us right now.

BROWN: Yes.

BLITZER: Joining us now here in THE SITUATION ROOM is Tom Johnson. He served as the president of CNN from 1990 to 2001. He's the author of a truly fascinating, excellent brand-new book entitled "Driven: A Life in Public Service and Journalism from LBJ to CNN." And I recommend this book very, very highly.

Also with us, the veteran journalist, the former CNN anchor Judy Woodruff. She's also a senior correspondent now for "PBS NewsHour," wrote the forward for Tom's new book.

And, Judy, thanks very much for coming back, at least today, to CNN. Thanks very much to both of you for joining us.

Tom, let me start. Your second day on the job at CNN was August 2, 1990. That was the day after the Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein decided to invade Kuwait. Operation Desert Shield became Operation Desert Storm. We had reporters, producers, camerapeople in Baghdad, but they were being threatened.

And you got calls from the president of the United States, the defense secretary and others to get those people out as quickly as possible. Pick up the story.

TOM JOHNSON, FORMER CNN PRESIDENT: Wolf, thank you.

President Bush 41 called. Marlin Fitzwater, who was the press secretary to the president, called, and the chairman of Joint Chiefs, Colin Powell, all three of whom said, get out of Baghdad. Your people are in grave danger, and you should do it as rapidly as possible.

I thanked the three of them for their call and then called Ted Turner, who said: "Tom, our policy will be, those who wish to stay can stay. Those who wish to come out can come out." As it turned out, nobody could get out. The Saddam Hussein Airport was closed. And so all of our staff stayed and endured quite an experience and did it quite well.

BLITZER: I remember that so vividly. I would CNN's Pentagon correspondent while you were getting calls telling you to pull our reporters out, like all the major news organizations. They were pulling their reporters, their journalists out of Baghdad because it was so dangerous.

I was getting calls from the defense secretary, Dick Cheney, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Colin Powell, tell your bosses, they said, get those people away from the Al-Rasheed Hotel. That place is going to be bombed. The Iraqis have military intelligence operations there. Get them out as quickly as possible.

And I remember calling you and Ted Turner and saying, this is what they're warning us.

T. JOHNSON: Yes. That -- those warnings were so serious.

We knew that it had to be decided and decided quickly. But we had a team of reporters there who wanted to stay. I mean, Peter Arnett particularly wanted to stay. And so we supported that. And I shall also say that Ted said: "Tom, I know you lost two reporters when you worked for 'The Los Angeles Times.' I will take off of your conscience and put on mine the possible loss of any of our staffers while there."

I went to bed that night not believing that our staffers would be alive the next day. But, fortunately, very fortunately, we were.

BROWN: And wasn't one of them Nic Robertson? You were telling me earlier, yes.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson was one of our producers there at the time, a young producer at the time in Baghdad. He stayed as well.

Bernie Shaw -- and, Judy, all of us remember you were co-anchoring on CNN with Bernie Shaw. You remember him well.

JUDY WOODRUFF, "PBS NEWSHOUR": Well, later on.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: And I was at the Pentagon when I heard him. You joined CNN after the war.

But I remember Bernie saying in Baghdad, with all the other news organizations that fled for understandable reasons, Bernie saying: "The skies over Baghdad have been illuminated."

And we have that clip. Let me just play that clip to remind our viewers what was going on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to Bernard Shaw in Baghdad.

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: This is -- something is happening outside.

[11:50:06]

Peter Arnett, join me here. What -- let's describe to our viewers what we're seeing. The skies over Baghdad have been illuminated. We're seeing bright flashes going off all over the sky.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: It was amazing to hear Bernie Shaw, Peter Arnett, John Holliman, our reporters there, actually doing live coverage. No other news organization was still there.

WOODRUFF: And I was at PBS at the time, and, of course, everybody, every other news organization was watching CNN, because you were -- CNN was the only news organization on the ground. And that's classic Bernie.

I mean, Bernie wanted to be where the action was. And they, I think, Tom, didn't know they were going to make it through that night. Isn't that right?

T. JOHNSON: That's true. They did not.

I also should say, you mentioned Nic Robertson. He had developed a program, a so-called four-wire that enabled us to be able to circumvent the Iraqi communications system, the Iraqi power system, and to be able to report audio-live, where all other networks went down.

BLITZER: And I remember when I was reporting in those days safely from the Pentagon, the most dangerous thing I had to do was drive on the Beltway to the Pentagon. But I remember being so worried about my friends and colleagues who were in Baghdad at that time because I had been warned by the defense secretary, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, get those people out of there. They're probably going to get killed.

T. JOHNSON: Yes, they did.

And also Ted Turner was resisting fiercely any orders from the Pentagon or from the White House. I mean, he felt that we had a responsibility to cover this major story, the biggest major international and U.S. story of those times. And so we had the support of the owner of CNN.

And I think about that today, when so many news organizations seem to be threatened by government almost persecution in a way. The importance today, and this is a huge breaking news day of the importance of covering independently and honestly the news that I think the American public and people all over the world wish to have.

WOODRUFF: If I could just add, I mean, it was truly one of the hallmarks of Tom Johnson's presidency of CNN, and Ted Turner being the boss of and the founder of CNN, that they had the back of their correspondents.

The message that went out to anybody who worked for the news organization is, we're here for you. Ted Turner's mantra, Tom, and you can correct this, was, it's about the news. We want you to go out and cover the news and we're here to back you up.

T. JOHNSON: And then, Wolf, I hired Judy Woodruff, which was another major milestone in my life and in the life of CNN.

BLITZER: A great hire.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: You had some great hires. And, actually, you played a key role, Tom, on THE SITUATION ROOM co-host right here, because the first time I ever met Wolf Blitzer was at your house in, what would you say, 1994?

BLITZER: 1994, you invited me and my wife and you invited Pamela and her family to come to your house in Atlanta when my Buffalo Bills were playing the Dallas Cowboys in the Super Bowl. You had tickets for the Super Bowl and we stayed at your house.

BROWN: Yes.

BLITZER: I don't know if you remember that. She was a little -- you were, what, 10 years old?

BROWN: I was 10 years old.

BLITZER: Yes.

BROWN: And Tom has been a mentor to me ever since. I mean, he's played a key role in why I'm a journalist to this day and why I continue to pursue this career path.

So Tom, I just want to note that for our audience. And I have known you for so long. I talked to you. I have picked your brain about your career, which has been incredible. It's all in this book, "Driven."

Tell us why you chose to write this book now.

T. JOHNSON: I fell in love with journalism at a young age. I was so fortunate to work in a small newspaper where the reporters, the editors, and the owners believed in a young aspiring journalist.

That newspaper sent me to get an undergraduate degree, get a Harvard Business School degree. But more than that, I have had the experience of working with President Johnson at the White House, working with Otis Chandler, the owner of "The Los Angeles Times," and then in those more recent years to work with Ted Turner.

And I have had some inside-the-room experiences with them, sometimes just the two of us together. And I thought that it was worthy of doing. And I should tell you that my wife, Edwina...

BROWN: Who I love.

T. JOHNSON: ... was the force to get me to do this.

And I also should tell the viewers that we have loved mentoring young journalists.

BROWN: Yes.

T. JOHNSON: And particularly like a young woman out of Chapel Hill who was a student there, and then who went to work with a Washington news organization, News Channel 8, as well as...

(CROSSTALK)

[11:55:00]

BROWN: Yes.

T. JOHNSON: ... communications, but also to be a part of your lives.

Journalists live interesting lives. They make a difference. I think they make as much of a difference as any public servants. And I have seen both sides of the track. But the three of you personify the very best in journalism.

And I hope that those that are looking for role models for themselves for the future will want to grow up to be just like the three of you and have owners, have owners like Ted Turner.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Those executives are so critically important, because, without their leadership and their support, we couldn't be doing the jobs that we're doing.

BROWN: Yes.

BLITZER: Tom, once again...

BROWN: And happy birthday, Tom.

T. JOHNSON: Thank you.

BLITZER: Today is your birthday. BROWN: Got to get that in there. It's Tom's birthday.

T. JOHNSON: Just buy hundreds of copies, if you will.

BROWN: There you go, no big deal, for his birthday, guys. Come on. It's a small ask.

BLITZER: This is the book, "Driven: A Life in Public Service and Journalism from LBJ to CNN," and forwarded by Judy Woodruff.

T. JOHNSON: Yes.

BROWN: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Thanks for doing. Thanks to both of you for being great journalists. We know you love journalism. You're both news junkies, as we are as well.

BROWN: Yes, we are.

BLITZER: And thanks for introducing me to Pamela many, many years ago.

BROWN: And for being such a great mentor.

All right, thank you all so much. Thank you for joining us this morning.

BLITZER: "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" is coming up next, right after a short break.