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The Situation Room

A.I. and Targeted Ads; Shutdown's Impact on Women and Children?; Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired October 02, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Happening now: The Pentagon is stepping up efforts to crack down on leaks, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth promising to go after whistle-blowers and promising an overhaul of the military's watchdog agencies.

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PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We are liberating commanders. And, NCOs, we are liberating you. We are overhauling an inspector general process, the I.G., that has been weaponized, putting complainers, ideologues and poor performers in the driver's seat.

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BROWN: Let's discuss more now with former Defense Secretary under President Obama Leon Panetta.

Secretary, thank you for joining us.

So, earlier this year, we got that bombshell report in "The Atlantic" on how Hegseth was discussing attack plans on Yemen in a messaging app. That is being investigated by the Pentagon's inspector general. What do you make of Hegseth now going after the same office that's investigating him?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, I think it's important to investigate issues related to our security and whether or not the secretary, in using the network that he was using, could possibly have jeopardized classified information.

That's an important issue that needs to be investigated, not pushed aside.

BROWN: Do you see any scenario where it's being improperly used, the inspector general's office, as Hegseth is implying there?

PANETTA: Well, the role of the inspector generals is to be independent and to be able to look at problems within the departments and agencies that they're assigned to.

That's what the role of an inspector general is supposed to be. It's not supposed to be weaponized pursuant to whoever's head of a particular department or agency. They are supposed to be independent and looking at problems within their departments. That's why inspector generals were created.

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BROWN: So, to discourage leaks, Hegseth wants generals to undergo random lie-detector tests and have top officials sign nondisclosure agreements. What do you think about that? And does the Pentagon need to take a harder line against those who leak sensitive information?

PANETTA: Look, I think that's the wrong approach.

I have been in public life over 50 years, worked in administrations. There's always a concern about leaks. But the worst way to deal with leaks is to go into investigations and lie-detector tests and polygraphs and create a tremendous consternation within the staff.

The best way to deal with leaks is to make people feel like they're part of the team and to build loyalty in the team that's working for you. That's the best way to control leaks, not to investigate it and go after people.

BROWN: Earlier this week, Hegseth summoned hundreds of generals and admirals from around the world for a meeting in Quantico. This is drawing some criticism from some Republicans, including outgoing Senator Thom Tillis, who said it could have been done virtually.

What do you think? I mean, do you actually think the defense secretary harmed national security by holding this meeting? Or do you see the value in bringing everyone together to make sure they're on the same page?

PANETTA: It struck me as a missed opportunity. You're bringing 800 of the finest military leaders in the world to Washington. These are people that are manning posts throughout the world, trying to deal with concerns about foreign enemies, foreign adversaries.

And rather than address what our defense policy should be in the 21st century, what steps we have to take in order to strengthen our military, they engaged in political discussions that, frankly, were not worthy of the audience that they were speaking to.

These guys are professional. These guys have fought in wars. They know how to fight wars. The real thing they're concerned about is, what is the administration going to do in terms of our national defense strategy? And, unfortunately, that was never really addressed.

BROWN: Well, what was addressed is how President Trump views the role of the military, in part to be used as law enforcement within the U.S. to help handle what he calls the enemy from within.

You heard him say that there is an invasion from within and that certain cities in the United States should be treated as training grounds for the military. What is your reaction to that?

PANETTA: My view and I think the view of our Constitution is that the primary role of the military is to defend our country against foreign enemies. That's the primary role of the military.

It is not law enforcement. And there are laws that make that clear. So I think the better focus of our military is trying to protect us not from our own citizens, but from Russia and China and North Korea and Iran and terrorists that are out to get us. That's the primary focus that should be the military's responsibility.

BROWN: Secretary Leon Panetta, thank you so much for offering your time and perspective.

PANETTA: Good to be with you.

BROWN: Just ahead right here in THE SITUATION ROOM: what an extended shutdown could mean for millions of mothers and children who rely on a government program for healthy food.

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BROWN: Happening now: The government shutdown could mean a federal program that provides food assistance to low-income mothers and children that could run out of money in days.

Sources tell CNN White House Budget Chief Russ Vought warned House Republicans yesterday it could happen by next week. The most recent government data shows that nearly seven million women, infants and children were ineligible -- were ineligible, I should say, for WIC benefits.

Joining us now here in THE SITUATION ROOM is the National WIC Association's public policy director, Ali Hard.

Ali, thank you for coming on.

So this government shutdown could directly impact some of the most vulnerable people. Walk us through what that can mean, because right now, no one's not getting any food, but that could change.

ALI HARD, PUBLIC POLICY DIRECTOR, NATIONAL WIC ASSOCIATION: That's right. Thank you so much for having me, Pam.

So the WIC program has been around for 50 years. We just celebrated our birthday. And we provide nutritious food and then access to health care and referrals to wraparound social supports for families who are low-income and at nutritious additional risk.

And so, right now, we are able to serve everyone in WIC. We are hearing that clinics are open and folks are able to redeem their benefits because of the federal funds that are on hand. However, those funds are very limited because this shutdown comes at the start of the fiscal quarter, and we're coming off of a year where participation was growing.

And so the funding left over from last fiscal year is tight. So we could see the program start to run out of federal dollars within one to two weeks. And then it will be up to states to see if they can put up the money in the meantime to keep the program going if we have a prolonged government shutdown.

BROWN: So what does that look like? Do the states have enough funding to keep it going through -- or does it just depend on the state? What are the contingency plans there?

HARD: So it will vary by state.

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We know that some states have said that they will be able to put up the funding to keep the program running as normal for at least through the end of October. So, we know, for example, Colorado has already taken that action. But we believe that other states won't be able to act as quickly. They have constitutional limitations on what they're able to do with their budget and with funding on such a short timeline.

So we are really concerned about what could happen if we go on for more than a week or two of this shutdown.

BROWN: So then what is your message to WIC participants who are feeling really anxious right now probably?

HARD: Absolutely.

So, for right now, we really want WIC families to know that today WIC remains open and you can use your card. So please keep doing that. But we also understand that folks are really concerned about in the long run can they rely on this program to get their needs met? We know that for babies WIC provides 100 percent of their nutritional needs, whether that's supporting their mom with lactation consulting if they're breast-feeding or providing potentially medical specialty infant formula.

So that could be a real crisis. And we really encourage those families who are worried to reach out to their members of Congress and to the White House and really urge them to come to a solution quickly, because we don't want to see that consequence.

BROWN: What about outside groups? Do you see them coming in, stepping in to help?

HARD: So we know that the emergency food system is available, and that's where people tend to go, to food banks. But we also know that that system is already stretched. So we're very worried about what will happen if they do see an influx of families if we have that situation where states are not able to step in and folks are not able to redeem their benefits.

So we're very concerned about what that looks like. BROWN: So is there anything else we need to know to better understand

how this government shutdown is impacting WIC and families, millions across the country?

HARD: Yes, I mean, I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is that, when these situations happen, we really risk losing trust from families. We know that WIC right now is only serving a little more than half of the folks who are eligible for the program.

And so a lot of folks are already missing out on those critical nutrition benefits. And when folks aren't sure that they will be able to use their benefits at the grocery store, they might choose not to participate. And that's really unfortunate. So we're really worried about losing that trust from families.

And then I'm really worried about those families who have young babies or are pregnant and might be just put in really difficult positions. We know during the infant formula crisis that families...

BROWN: I remember that.

HARD: ... were thinking about, should we water down formula? And that that's so dangerous and so scary for those families to have to think about those situations.

So we really are urging Congress and the White House to come together and get to a deal, so that we can get back to normal program operations as soon as possible.

BROWN: All right, Ali Hard, thank you so much.

HARD: Thank you, Pam.

BROWN: Coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM: turning chats into sales pitches, how Meta's A.I. chatbot will be using your conversations to create ads just for you.

We will explain next.

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BROWN: Well, new this morning, Meta is previewing an upcoming change to its A.I. chatbot in how it uses your information.

The company says, starting in December, Meta A.I. will use chats and interactions to make the ads you see even more personalized.

CNN tech reporter, Clare Duffy joins us now.

So, you have been reporting on this plan. And this could raise concerns for people about what they -- how they use their A.I. bots, right?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN TECH REPORTER: Yes, Pamela, there are one billion people, Meta says, who use this Meta A.I. chatbot every month. This is something that's accessible on Facebook, on Instagram, on WhatsApp, and on a stand-alone app.

And Meta now wants to use what people tell its A.I. chatbot to target them with ads and to make more personalized content recommendations across its platforms. Users will start to see notifications about this next week and, as you said, it will go into effect in December.

And I think it's really important for people to understand how this is different from how Meta has operated in the past. As we know, Meta is already very good at targeting us with ads, sometimes with things we didn't even realize we wanted before we saw the ad.

But the way it's done that in the past is to take signals like who we're connected to, what we're clicking on and watching and use those signals to infer what we might like to buy. But with this new system, it will be able to take what people are directly telling its A.I. chatbot about the trip that they're planning or a problem that they're having that a product could solve and use that to help sell them things.

Now, Meta says that this is just another signal that it will take into account when it's doing its ad targeting. The company said in a statement: "Just like other personalized services, we tailor the ads and content you see based on your activity, ensuring that your experience evolves as your interests change. Soon, interactions with A.I.s will be another signal we use to improve people's experience."

But this data could potentially be really valuable for the company.

BROWN: And we know, Clare, that people have intimate conversations with these chatbots. It's a full range, right?

So what is Meta doing to keep that in mind and not take advantage?

DUFFY: Yes, Pamela, I mean, you have done such great reporting on this, how people really develop these personal relationships with chatbots.

Meta says there are a number of conversation topics that it won't use to target people, things like religious views, sexual orientation, political views, health. It also says that people can go into their ad settings and remove topics that they don't want to be targeted with ads from.

But I do think it really is going to put the pressure on Meta to make sure it's not taking advantage of the conversations that people are having with the chatbots to sell them things or to send them down content rabbit holes based on their content recommendations.

BROWN: I also want to ask you, while we're on this topic, I have done reporting on how people use ChatGPT and other chatbots. And, sadly, there have been tragic consequences too.

[11:55:03] I mean, we interviewed a mother who lost her son. He died by suicide after having a relationship, as she said, with his chatbot. Now there's parental controls that ChatGPT is introducing. Can you tell us about that?

DUFFY: Yes.

Yes, so ChatGPT is giving parents the option and teens the option to link their accounts. Now, they both have to opt in to linking their accounts. But once they do, teen users will be placed under content restrictions, so they won't be able to access as much violent or graphic content. The chatbots will also be less likely to engage in romantic or sexual role play.

And then parents can have certain controls that they can turn on, like time restrictions. They can turn off voice mode, which, as you know, is one of the things that often draws people into this personal relationship. So this is a first step, but it, again, does require teens to opt in to their parents linking the account.

BROWN: All right, Clare Duffy, thank you so much. Good to see you.

And thank you all for joining us this morning. We will see you back here tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. Eastern.

"INSIDE POLITICS," today with Manu Raju, is next after a short break.