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7 Million Join No Kings Protests Against Trump; Trump Says Protesters are "Not Representative of" Country; Day 20 of U.S. Government Shutdown; Ceasefire in Gaza Holding. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired October 20, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Amid the government shutdown, millions of Americans rallied against President Trump at thousands of No Kings rallies held nationwide this weekend. Those numbers are according to event organizers and officials. Protesters for the second time this year expressed their opposition to what they view as authoritarian rule by the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In America, we don't do kings. We don't do thrones.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our nation's democracy is at stake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The authoritarians divide and conquer, and they create another, and then they pick on it, and then pick on the person and harass them, jail them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just, it's all unconstitutional, unprecedented. It's not what I want for my country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining us now to discuss is the ACLU's National Director of Policy and Government Affairs, Mike Zamore. The ACLU helped organize the No Kings events. Mike, thanks for coming on. So, we saw these large-scale protests throughout President Trump's first term. Why do you feel these No Kings protests are different, and what do they accomplish?

MIKE ZAMORE, ACLU NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF POLICY AND GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS: Yes, thanks, Pamela. It's great to be here. The protests this weekend and throughout this term, I think, are really a showing of joyous insistence on the part of the American public that we are going to assert our freedom, and this is coming in the face of really the most concerted effort to control speech and limit people's rights, since McCarthyism at least.

You know, and we've seen the president and his administration coming after people if they don't like what they say and locking them up, as he has done to a number of our clients. We've seen him trying to intimidate us with tear gas and putting military troops into our streets and into our communities. We've seen him trying to bribe and blackmail universities and contractors to give up their rights. And what we're seeing is people turning out to reject that whole paradigm of a government that tells you what you're allowed to do, what you're allowed to say. And we see people asserting that they are going to be the real decision makers in America, which is exactly the way our Constitution envisions it.

BROWN: I'm going to play a little bit of what President Trump said about these protests. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think it's a joke. I looked at the people. They're not representative of this country. And I looked at all the brand-new signs, paid for -- I guess it was made for by Soros and other radical left lunatics. It looks like it was. We're checking it out. The demonstrations were very small, very ineffective, and the people were whacked out. When you look at those people, those are not representative of the people of our country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, besides San Francisco --

TRUMP: By the way, I'm not a king. I'm not a king.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What is your response to that? And would other Republicans say that if he was a king, all of these millions of protesters wouldn't have been able to do what they did, making their voices heard on that issue?

ZAMORE: Yes. I mean, I think this is the question facing the country right now, is what sort of America do we want? And I think what you see is President Trump and his enablers are desperate to avoid accountability. They want to be able to give themselves huge tax cuts or sweetheart crypto deals. They're trying to basically lock in permanent power, and it's why they've done things like corrupted the Department of Justice and turned it into a Department of Revenge. It's why they're repeatedly gaslighting and stonewalling courts that are trying to force them to obey the law and obey the Constitution. It's why they're violating the constitutional separation of powers and our laws and trying to turn your taxpayer dollars, our taxpayer dollars into a presidential slush fund.

[10:35:00]

In all sorts of ways, this president is trying to avoid the checks and balances, is the laws and rights that we have that limit his power. And the question that I think is being posed is, on the one hand, you have the president and his allies in Congress and others who seem perfectly happy to hand over those sorts of freedoms and you have 7 million people turning out on Saturday, and certainly millions more engaging in various kinds of actions to try to say, no, we're going to stand strong and ensure that we keep these rights in place and that we make sure that this is a country governed by laws, where the freedoms that are promised to us by the Constitution, that are -- the birthright of all of us who live in this country don't get trampled.

BROWN: And certainly, you know, as we saw with these protests, there are many Americans who have those concerns. There are also millions of Americans who felt like DOJ was weaponized under President Biden, against Donald Trump. And they have -- you know, they support Donald Trump. They support what he is doing. Are you concerned just about how divided this country is right now?

ZAMORE: Oh, yes, absolutely. I think that the division is really dangerous. And I think the repeated gaslighting by this administration to try to change the facts and obliterate any sense of what is true is extremely dangerous. You know, I think it's really notable that on Saturday, we had over 2,500 events taking place in every corner of this country, all 50 states, tiny little towns in very what we would consider red places on the map.

And I don't think this is a blue versus red, Democrat versus Republican question of whether we want to be in control of our own future, of our own lives. I think, you know, people turned out for lots of different reasons and lots of different places, but the unifying theme is they don't want to be limited in their lives to whatever Donald Trump wants them to do or say or think.

Now, some people -- plenty of people agree with the president and that's fine. And they should have the right to do and say things that are aligned with those beliefs, that's the beauty of the first amendment in our country. But equally true is that people who disagree with the president have to have those same rights. And that's really what we're here to stand for. And at the end of the day, we don't want power being used to put thumbs on the scales to decide who has power in the future, right? That is what authoritarianism looks like.

What democracy should be is a battle for those hearts and minds. And people are going to be divided. People have different opinions, that's fine, but they should be able to express those and have it out in the court of public opinion and on the -- you know, the kind of turf of campaigns and politics to be able to resolve those differences and believe that whoever wins will have the limits on them that all previous presidents have had so that someone else has a chance to win in the future. And that's really what's at stake here.

BROWN: Let me quickly jump in before we let you go and ask you about this A.I. generated video that President Trump posted on his social media depicting him wearing a crown in a fighter jet and blazing King Trump and dumping waste on protesters. What went through your mind when you saw that?

ZAMORE: That was a polite way of saying it. I mean, I think that anybody who would depict themselves as dumping waste on the American people maybe doesn't really warrant the powers of the presidency. The person in that office should be trying to serve the people who elected them and serving the people who didn't vote for them. And that's what, you know, I think all of our presidents have done.

You know, we should be trying to manage our differences and not trolling and delegitimizing people who disagree with us. And I think that it's just beneath the dignity of the office, but it's also -- it's just another reflection of the lack of regard that the president has for the people of this country. He has shown repeatedly he's in this job to serve himself and his cronies, not to serve the American people. And I think that 7 million people showed up on Saturday to say that that's not good enough.

BROWN: Mike Zamore, thank you for sharing your opinions and perspectives on this. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:40:00]

BROWN: Breaking news. House Speaker Mike Johnson just wrapped up a news conference marking the 20th day of the government shutdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: Now, that Democrats have had their protest and publicity stunts, I just pray that they come to their senses and end this shutdown and reopen the government this week. Republicans are waiting. The American people are waiting. We are ready to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: This as more key federal workers are furloughed and told they'll be missing their next paychecks. According to the Energy Department, the agency responsible for overseeing the U.S. nuclear stockpile will furlough the vast majority of its staff today.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: That's pretty worrisome indeed. I want to go live right now to CNN's chief national -- chief congressional correspondent, I should say, Manu Raju. He's up on Capitol Hill, as he always is. Manu, is there any indication of a possible off-ramp to end this government shutdown?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Short answer is no, Wolf. In fact, it looks like it's only going to drag on for a considerable time longer. How long is really anybody's guess. Right now, this is the third longest shutdown in American history. Actually, the longest full government shutdown. The other two ones that were longer were partial government shutdown.

[10:45:00]

Every agency here is now shuttered because of the stalemate on Capitol Hill. What we're going to see tonight is another effort by Republicans in the Senate to push forward their bill to reopen the government up until November 21st. Democrats plan to block that bill for the 11th time. Their argument is that they want to extend expiring subsidies under the Affordable Care Act that help people pay for their health care insurance. They say it must be dealt with now because of health care premium increases that are set to begin once open enrollment season begins next month. But Republicans say that negotiation needs to wait. And this has been the back and forth that has been going on for the past four weeks. And the speaker very much indicated in this news conference that nothing has changed. In fact, the speaker has kept the House out of session since September 19th. He's canceled several weeks of the session here in the United States House, all in an effort to pressure Senate Democrats to pass the bill that was approved by his chamber a few weeks ago, saying there's no reason for this House to act, even though they could act on any number of bills not related to the government shutdown. He has kept these members out of here.

And in a bit of news, Wolf, I just asked the speaker about his plans to bring back the House. The Senate is expected to take up a bill this week to pay those federal furloughed federal workers. I asked him, if that bill passes the United States Senate, will he bring back the House into session? He said yes. I asked him, this week, do you plan to bring back the House this week? He said he would be inclined to do that if they were to either pass the bill to reopen the government or do something, quote, "meaningful" like the bill to pay those furloughed federal workers. So, that's going to be a big test for the Senate.

We expect to vote middle of the week to pay those furloughed workers, hundreds of thousands of federal furloughed workers. It would need 60 votes in the United States Senate to get there. It's unclear if they get the 60 votes. And if they do, the speaker there indicating that the House could get back into session at that point. And also, at that point, we'll see if he swears in that one Democratic member from the House, from Arizona, Adelita Grijalva, who's been waiting to be sworn in by the speaker, who has not done so because the House has been shuttered. And the implications for that would be significant as well, narrowing the House majority and the like.

But bit of news there, Wolf, but there's still a significant stalemate. And this government shutdown is only bound to drag on.

BLITZER: It looks like it's dragging on and on and on. All right. Manu Raju up on Capitol Hill, thank you, Pamela.

BROWN: And federal workers are impacted and other Americans. Coming up in the next hour, we're watching the White House where, in just minutes, President Trump will welcome the Australian prime minister. And of course, we will bring you their meeting live when it happens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:50:00]

BLITZER: New this morning, both Israel and Hamas say they remain committed to the ceasefire that's facing its first major test right now. Israel carried out a series of strikes across Gaza after it accused Hamas of killing two Israeli soldiers. Hamas denies any involvement in those deaths. Gaza's hospitals are reporting that at least 44 people were killed in those Israeli strikes.

Joining us now is Ambassador Dennis Ross. He served as a top diplomat at the State Department, working closely on the Middle East peace process and on wider regional issues as well. He's also the author of a very important, excellent new book entitled "Statecraft 2.0: What America Needs to Lead in a Multipolar World." Ambassador, thanks very much for joining us. As you know, both sides say they're committed to this ceasefire deal. Is it going to last?

DENNIS ROSS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT OBAMA AND COUNSELOR, THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: I think it will because there's a very strong stake, not only the part of both of them, but also the mediators. Turkey, Qatar, Egypt, as well as the United States, have a huge interest in preserving this. So, I think it will hold. But by definition, it's fragile because there's so many questions that are unanswered.

BLITZER: Like what?

ROSS: When will we see this Board of Peace established? When will we see the International Stabilization Force established? What will the role and mission of that force be? Will it be to protect the population of Gaza? The more the population of Gaza is protected, the less Hamas will be able to do anything. Hamas knows it can't resist the entire population, but the population needs to know it'll be protected from Hamas and its guns.

BLITZER: As you know, the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, met with two of the ceasefire key negotiators today, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner. They're back in Israel. He's expected to meet with Vice President J.D. Vance in Israel tomorrow. This agreement is seen as a signature achievement for the president of the United States. How much pressure do you see the Trump administration putting on Netanyahu and his government to maintain this deal?

ROSS: I think the pressure will be very real. I think they will present publicly a face of cooperation with Israel, but I think the private pressure will be quite profound. The fact is, Prime Minister Netanyahu cannot say no to President Trump. And so, the more that reality is demonstrated, the more this will also hold.

The reason J.D. Vance is going is precisely to show very high-level American interest in preserving the ceasefire. Now, the key for Netanyahu will be to say, are we seeing comparable pressure being put on Hamas? That's critical. And that requires Turkey and Qatar in particular to continue to exert a lot of leverage that they actually have.

BLITZER: And you think they will?

ROSS: I think they will because they have a stake in preserving this. They have an interest in ending the war. And they want President Trump to see the value of a relationship with them.

[10:55:00]

BLITZER: As you know, Hamas has so far returned just 12 of the 28 bodies of deceased Israeli hostages outlined in the ceasefire agreement. All were supposed to be returned within 72 hours of the deal. How big of a problem is the very slow pace of this -- for this agreement to hold?

ROSS: I think it's a real issue. Everybody at one level focused on the live hostages for obvious reasons. But the fact is, all of the hostages have to come back. There'll be no closure in Israel until all the hostages are back. The fact that there are still 16 that have not been returned, maybe there's a few that are difficult to recover. But Hamas, I believe, is playing games. And that requires Turkey, Egypt, and Qatar to put much more pressure on them. And that means we must put much more pressure on each of those mediators as well.

BLITZER: Do you find any reassurance in the fact that both Israel and Hamas have quickly reaffirmed their commitment to this ceasefire?

ROSS: What it shows me is, nobody wants to be seen as being responsible for a resumption of the war. That's just the truth of Hamas, as it is, obviously, for the Israelis. And as I said, Prime Minister Netanyahu knows this is important to President Trump. And he's not going to say no to President Trump.

BLITZER: When I was in Israel last week, covering the return of the hostages, those who were still alive, there was a lot of optimism on the streets of Israel that this agreement could lead to an expansion of what's called the Abraham Accords, which normalize relations between Israel and several Arab countries. Do you think expanding the Abraham Accords is in the works right now?

ROSS: Not in the near term. But you can get there. The key to all of this is you have to show that the steps or the 20 elements, the 20 points, actually are beginning to be implemented. The more that's the case, the more it will generate its own momentum. And others who are not part of the Abraham Accords will then have a greater interest in pursuing it. Right now, until you see more of this implemented, you will not see an expansion.

BLITZER: You know, it's interesting, because Saudi Arabia, a key player in all of this, when I was in Saudi Arabia about a year or two ago, they made it clear to me that they would expand the Abraham Accords, include Saudi Arabia, but only if Israel agreed to what's called a two-state solution, Israel living alongside a new state of Palestine. Do you see any possibility that Israel will accept a Palestinian State?

ROSS: In the near term, probably not. But again, look at point 19 of the 20 points, it talks about if there's reform in the PA, and there needs to be and there has not been in the Palestinian Authority, that will create the conditions for self-determination and statehood for the Palestinians. So, that's point 19 of the 20 points. It's built into the 20 points.

Prime Minister Netanyahu may say he's against a Palestinian State, but he accepted the 20 points, and point 19 basically says self- determination. That crossed the threshold. No American administration publicly had ever committed to self-determination for the Palestinians. Now, we have that commitment in the 19th of the 20 points. BLITZER: So, you think it's possible that down the road there will be what's called this two-state solution, Israel and a new State of Palestine living next to each other?

ROSS: Down the road. Not immediately. And a lot of conditions will have to be met before that's the case. The Israeli public is fearful that a Palestinian State will be led by Hamas. Until you see changes on the ground that demonstrate that can't happen, we will not get there.

BLITZER: Do you think they would be much more supportive of a two- state solution if the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, who's the head of the Palestinian Authority, would lead this new State of Palestine?

ROSS: I think they would not have a lot of confidence in Mahmoud Abbas. I think if they see a de-radicalization, including in the Palestinian Authority, if they see there's an acknowledgment that there's a historic Jewish connection to the land, that would begin to change the psychology within Israel.

BLITZER: And what are the chances of Hamas and Gaza actually disarming, which is called for in this 20-point peace proposal?

ROSS: They will do everything they can to resist it. This will require, again, the International Stabilization Force to come in and fulfill a role. The mission must be very clearly defined, protect the public and create a process that disarms Hamas. And there's a reason that beyond everything else we've said, there'll be no reconstruction in Gaza without demilitarization, because no one will invest in Gaza if Hamas can reconstitute itself.

BLITZER: Ambassador Dennis Ross, as usual, thanks very much for coming in.

ROSS: My pleasure.

BLITZER: Appreciate it. Pamela.

BROWN: And the next hour of the Situation Room starts right now. Happening now, immigration officials in court. A federal judge demands answers about tactics used in the Chicago crackdown. Heists at the loo. Authorities are hunting down the brazen thieves who stole priceless treasures from the world's most visited museum in broad daylight.

BLITZER: And Russian forces now making gains, hitting Ukraine with unrelenting aerial assaults right now. What President Trump is now suggesting to end the war.

We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer with Pamela Brown, and you're in The Situation Room.

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