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The Situation Room
Virginia Teacher Takes Stand in Shooting Lawsuit. Aired 11:30a- 12:00p ET
Aired October 30, 2025 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:30:00]
ABIGAIL ZWERNER, PLAINTIFF: I may be wrong on the title of it, but it was the tier one, tier two, tier three.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So that's the school -- that's a handbook that you would reference?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And why would you reference that sheet?
ZWERNER: For the behaviors. It was like a left and right side.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And why would you look at that, the left and right side?
ZWERNER: The possible displayed behaviors on the left and then on the right side actions to take as a teacher.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Reed (ph), if we can only display to council, please, Exhibit 108 and it would be (INAUDIBLE) stamp 9074 and 9075. Thank you.
And, Abby, do you see two documents in front of you?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you recognize those two documents?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what are those two documents in front of you?
ZWERNER: On the left and the right side, it looks like the three, I don't know how to explain it -- it's like the combined on the one sheet of paper that I had on the orange sheet of paper, like the level one behaviors, and then on the right side of the screen, level two and then level three behaviors.
I had the all in one sheet of paper, the orange paper on the wall.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So the exhibit that we just showed to the jury, the box that you had of the three tiers is from this document? ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Your Honor, at this time I would move to submit this document, it's Plaintiff's 108, and we would mark it as 108.
JUDGE MATTHEW HOFFMAN, 7TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT OF VIRGINIA: All right, any objection?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Object, Your Honor. This witness can't authenticate. This is a handbook from Richneck Elementary. She's not at the employee. She can't authenticate the document.
HOFFMAN: She's identified it. That's overruled.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Your Honor.
HOFFMAN: So admitted, Plaintiff's 108.
ZWERNER: May I have permission to publish it to the jury, please?
HOFFMAN: You may.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
And, Abby, we're now sharing this with the jury. So can you tell them again where this section three came from?
ZWERNER: The Richneck Elementary school handbook.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the chart that the jury is seeing on those two pages, is that what was combined into one chart in the photo that we had just previously showed the jury?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And can we publish to the jury Exhibit 90-C? Is it 90-C? Thank you.
And if we can zoom in, that orange piece of paper behind your head is what has the chart on it with the tier one, tier two, and tier three behavior?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then if we can zoom in on the level three behaviors on the second part of the screen, please, Reed.
And do you see what's on the screen at this time?
ZWERNER: Yes. At the top, it says "Level three behaviors immediately reported to the school security and/or an administrator."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in the student behaviors, is there a possession of a weapon listed?
ZWERNER: Possession of a weapon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then next steps, that's for the administrator to do, correct? That was your understanding?
ZWERNER: Next steps.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if we -- on this date, Amy Kovac went and reported it to Dr. Parker, correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
And we can take that down from the screen now. Thank you, Reed.
So, Abby, now tell the jury, what did you see right before you were shot that day on January 6, 2023?
ZWERNER: The moment went by very fast. I remember Dr. Watson touched on it briefly earlier. The look on the student's face is a large memory that I have. I do remember it was like a very blank look, but it wasn't a blank look at all on his face.
[11:35:06]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And is that why you lifted your hand? Did you know what was about to happen?
ZWERNER: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what is the last thing you remember that day at the school?
ZWERNER: The last thing I remember at the school. Obviously, I thought I was dying. I thought I had died. I thought I was either on my way to heaven or in heaven.
But then it all got black. And so I then thought I wasn't going there. And then I -- my next memory is, I see two co-workers around me and I process that I'm hurt and they're putting pressure on where I'm hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Abby, can you describe for the jury a little bit about how you're still feeling physically and emotionally? I know that's a big question.
ZWERNER: Physically.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you describe how it is with your left hand still, the things you can and can't do even to this day?
So, Abby, can you tell the jury, when we have lunch together, are you able to open your potato chips or do I open your potato chips for you?
ZWERNER: I asked you. We had -- we were given -- we catered sandwiches in a box in -- a small bag of chips in -- and cookies were catered. And I was trying to open the bag of chips on my own multiple times, different ways, trying to hold it different ways. And I eventually asked you to open it.
It's the same thing with water bottles. Overall, I would say it's -- I do struggle with things, doing things.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, for example, we heard from your sister yesterday, and she described the change in your relationship with not only her, but friends. Do you -- are you able to explain a little bit to the jury about how you feel maybe those relationships have been changed?
ZWERNER: The best I can explain it, it's -- like, I still feel connected and close, but it's also that feeling of distance, a little numbness.
And it's like I know I trust the person I'm with. I love them, I know them, but there's just -- there's something that's just different. It's -- and it's -- I can't necessarily put it into words.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what about -- we heard from your mother about the movie "Hamilton." You were planning to go to it that day. What happened that changed your mind when you had already purchased the tickets and made those plans?
[11:40:03]
ZWERNER: It was a Saturday. I remember waking up. I woke up and I remembered that there was a scene where two characters had dueled with firearms.
And when we had started making the plans to see the movie, when the Saturday was coming up to see the movie, it just never flew through my mind. I had seen "Hamilton" before. But, for some reason, when I woke up that day to go see the movie, it just flew right into my head and just an overwhelming sense of -- I felt like everything just came over my body.
And I remember I called my mom. I don't remember if I was crying on the phone to her. I don't remember if I -- it was afterwards. But I remember crying a lot. And I remember that afterwards they were asking me if -- or where else, what else would I want to do instead that day? So, OK, we can't go to the movies. What do you want to do instead? Where else would you want to go instead?
And I remember saying or telling them: "Nowhere. I can't go anywhere. I just want to stay home. I'm not going anywhere today. I can't."
And I remember that day. It was my mom and my sister, so it wasn't just my mom and I planning to go. It was my mom, my sister and I, all three of us planning to go. And then they proposed to come over to my place. And even that still, I didn't want. No, just leave me alone. I don't want to go anywhere. I don't want to see anyone. I don't want to -- no, to my mom and my sister.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, Abby, I know this has been difficult for you, so that's all the questions I have. I appreciate it, OK, thank you. But stay there. There may be other questions.
HOFFMAN: Thank you.
All right, cross-examination.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My cross might take a little bit of time. I don't know (OFF-MIKE) try to get through the lunch.
HOFFMAN: I'm sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My cross might take a little bit of time. Let's get it started?
Ms. Zwerner, I just want to have a few questions so that we can make sure the jury understands the whole picture. You had been working as a teacher for a few years at the time of the incident, is that correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you had a number of children in your class with some academic issues?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You had some children in your class with behavioral issues, is that correct?
ZWERNER: I faintly remember.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when you were dealing with student misbehavior, you would start by talking with a student, is that correct?
ZWERNER: Most likely, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if you needed help, you would ask for guidance or co-workers or administrators to help, is that correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You would go to Dr. Parker at times, correct?
ZWERNER: At times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You would e-mail her, true?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You would walk in her office?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, if necessary, we would get the guidance counselor to take the student to Dr. Parker's office?
ZWERNER: At times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. West (ph) was another first grade teacher. She was across the hall from you, correct?
ZWERNER: She was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was lead first grade teacher. You would sometimes go over there if you needed to speak with her. You had a phone in your room?
[11:45:06]
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you could call a parent on the phone in your room?
ZWERNER: I don't think I called a parent during the day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you could if you needed to?
ZWERNER: Yes. Yes, I had a classroom phone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you could call the office?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Coleman (ph), can you please show to the witness and counsel Exhibit 90-A? Yes, sorry, Defense 90-A.
HOFFMAN: That is Plaintiff's 90-A, is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said Defense 90-A to me and then Plaintiff to you. So I just want the record to be clear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I -- Defense 90-A.
HOFFMAN: Is that in evidence?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not yet.
HOFFMAN: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Zwerner, I will give you a minute to look at this document.
ZWERNER: Are these from me or someone's messages to me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is your phone number 804-424 or (AUDIO GAP).
ZWERNER: So they're from me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's a text from you.
ZWERNER: OK, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you had a chance to look at the page?
ZWERNER: Yes, I read them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a text you sent on October 15, 2021?
ZWERNER: If that's what it stated, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you sent it to Rosalie West (ph)?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. West taught with you at Richneck, correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was she another first grade teacher?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your Honor, I move to admit defense Exhibit 90-A and publish to the jury.
HOFFMAN: Any objection?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your Honor, I would just object. I don't see how it's relevant. This is from October 2021. It's not regarding J.T. or the year that this happened or the day of the offense.
HOFFMAN: Yes, how is this relevant?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's relevant. If the court will let me explore with her, I can -- we can sidebar and I can tell you, but I don't want to obviously do that before I question her about it.
HOFFMAN: I mean, can you state why you believe it's relevant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The text is a text about evacuating the classroom when she felt that she was in danger, that she had done that before.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (OFF-MIKE) quite what it says, but you can read it, Your Honor.
HOFFMAN: I think the bottom one is relevant to that, but the top one isn't. So, I mean, I will overrule the objection as to the bottom one, if we redact the phone numbers and then redact the top text.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think, Your Honor, depending on whatever ruling you make, can we ensure that this remains published only to the witness because it has private phone numbers that I don't think (OFF- MIKE)
HOFFMAN: Correct. So if we could just post that as it's highlighted there, I'm OK with that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was not aware of any pre-court ruling about redacting text messages.
HOFFMAN: Well, phone numbers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or phone numbers.
HOFFMAN: Yes, phone numbers from the text need to be, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can redact it before it's submitted.
HOFFMAN: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Am I allowed to publish it to the jury before?
HOFFMAN: Yes, if it goes up exactly like that.
OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Zwerner, do you recall an incident the year prior with a student named Q?
ZWERNER: I don't.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you recall you had a student in your class named Q who you were -- felt in danger of and you had to evacuate your classroom?
ZWERNER: I don't. I remember a student with the name Q, but I don't remember any of this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So if you have looked at the text messages where you talk about evacuating the classroom because of student Q and feeling in danger the year prior, you would disagree with that?
ZWERNER: Yes, but I also know I have never officially technically done an evacuation procedure. I don't know what that -- I have never performed a school classroom evacuation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, Ms. Zwerner, if you see on the text, "Had to evacuate my room early for lunch."
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that was because of Q, wasn't it?
ZWERNER: Yes, I read that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You recall. Does that refresh your recollection?
ZWERNER: I don't recall what happened.
[11:50:07]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Coleman, can you publish to the witness and counsel Defense Exhibit 91-D?
Have you had a chance to review? Is that also a text message from your phone that you sent?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you sent it on December 15, 2022, at 5:22 p.m.? And that was a few weeks before the events that bring us here today. Is that correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you sent it to Jen West (ph), Anissa Miller (ph), and Kristen Ayers (ph), correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they were other first grade teachers?
ZWERNER: Yes, they were.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in this text, she told them that you were sorry for crying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your Honor, I'm objecting at this point. There was pretrial rulings about (OFF-MIKE) Rule 404, Your Honor. This isn't relevant as well (OFF-MIKE) look at a text that's on the screen before Your Honor, we would be objecting.
HOFFMAN: All right, so there are two separate texts. So let's just start with the top one.
All right, how is that relevant?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's relevant to credibility of the witness in terms of statements about -- the jury's heard evidence that Dr. Parker didn't look at her, so this is probative of that evidence that's in court from plaintiff's own mouth.
HOFFMAN: From December 15 of 2022?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple weeks before the shooting.
HOFFMAN: No, I'm going to sustain that objection.
All right, and then you have a separate argument on the bottom one? Or is it -- I'm sorry. Let's start with the objection first. Is that to relevance as well? Or have you even gotten to that second one?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had not gotten to the section.
HOFFMAN: OK. OK. So, on the top one, I'm going to sustain the objection.
All right, are you going to go to the bottom one or did you just want the top one? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want the bottom one.
HOFFMAN: OK, let me see that. Same objection?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Your Honor.
HOFFMAN: And is it the same date? I couldn't see the date.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's the same date, Your Honor.
HOFFMAN: All right. All right, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it's about a completely separate incident.
Your Honor, the jury's heard testimony from Ms. Kovac and others about Dr. Parker not looking at her on January 6, and Ms. Kovac made comments about Dr. Parker not doing certain things.
This is a text message from Ms. Zwerner discussing feedback from Dr. Parker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I object (OFF-MIKE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's directly relevant.
HOFFMAN: To what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Credibility of the witness. It's probative of actions taken on the day of, which they have been able to place in evidence.
HOFFMAN: No, I'm going to sustain the objection. It's not relevant. It's on December the 15th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
HOFFMAN: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Zwerner, there was an incident with your cell phone on January 4, 2023, correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it involved the student J.T., correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he threw your phone in the classroom?
ZWERNER: He slammed my phone to the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it broke the screen protector?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he did that, you took him by the hand, correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you removed him from the classroom?
ZWERNER: Yes, I brought him to Ms. West's classroom across the hall.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you asked her to call guidance, correct?
ZWERNER: Call for -- yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Mr. Rawls (ph) came?
ZWERNER: I asked her to call for help on her walkie-talkie. And Mr. Rawls and Ms. Palladini came.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So Ms. West could call for help on the walkie- talkie?
ZWERNER: Yes, she had a walkie-talkie. I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And Mr. Rawls came?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he removed J.T. from the classroom?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he was suspended for one day for that, correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
And he returned to school on January 6?
ZWERNER: Yes.
[11:55:00]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His mother brought him into class?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she apologized for what J.T. did?
ZWERNER: Yes. He did as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did as well?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he offered to pay for the screen protector?
ZWERNER: Yes, casual conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You did not notice anything off about J.T. when he first arrived at school on January 6?
ZWERNER: I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, your class went to lunch around 11:15 to 11:45, is that correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we have heard about an incident with J.T. in the lunch room. And you personally went to Dr. Parker about this incident, correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And to be clear, when you went to Dr. Parker about this witness -- this incident, you did not report to her anything about J.T. having a weapon?
ZWERNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you went back to your classroom after you left Dr. Parker's office?
ZWERNER: From my memory of that day, yes. But throughout this week, I have learned some things.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you recall going back to your classroom at some point before recess?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. Kovac was in your classroom?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you learned from Ms. Kovac that two of your students said J.T. had a gun in his backpack?
ZWERNER: I don't remember if Ms. Kovac told me who. She did not tell me which students. But, yes, Ms. Kovac did tell me that students told her that the student brought a gun with him to school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ask Ms. Kovac who the two students were who had reported this?
ZWERNER: I don't remember if I did or not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you take measures to speak with the two students who had reported this?
ZWERNER: No, I knew that Ms. Kovac spoke to them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were students in your class? ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you didn't feel the need to speak to them yourself?
ZWERNER: I knew Ms. Kovac had spoken to them, and I trusted Ms. Kovac.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you don't know what Ms. Kovac said to those students, do you, or if she said anything to the students?
ZWERNER: I trusted Ms. Kovac. She has 20, 30 years of teaching experience over my three, 2.5 years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So Ms. Kovac stayed in your room for a while, didn't she?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 30 minutes.
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she spoke to J.T. about what the students said, right?
ZWERNER: I don't recall specifically.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were in the classroom when this happened.
ZWERNER: I was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. Kovac was loudly talking to J.T.?
ZWERNER: I could not hear what she was saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you -- knowing that you have gotten this information that your student might have a gun, did you go speak with him?
ZWERNER: I did not. Ms. Kovac was with him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you -- Ms. Kovac was in your classroom. So you had coverage in your classroom, because Ms. Kovac was in there and she had 20 to 30 years of experience, right?
ZWERNER: Was that a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a question.
ZWERNER: Could you repeat that, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Kovac was in your room when you found out that J.T. might have a weapon. You had coverage in your classroom. Did you go back to Dr. Parker and say, oh, there's been a change, now there's a report that he might have a weapon? ZWERNER: At that time, no. Ms. Kovac was in my room investigating the situation. She was observing the student, sitting next to the student. And at that time, I'm trusting Ms. Kovac.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you remove J.T. from your classroom, as you had done two days prior when you took him by the hand and took him out?
ZWERNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you remove his backpack from the classroom?
ZWERNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you search his backpack?
ZWERNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you go back to the security officer in the lunch room?
ZWERNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who had left -- I guess left a little bit after this time. Is that right, about 12:00?
ZWERNER: I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Instead, you proceeded to teach a lesson before recess. Is that right? And Ms. Zwerner -- I mean, Ms. Kovac team- taught that lesson with you?
ZWERNER: I don't remember.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So Ms. Kovac has stated that she taught a lesson on Pocahontas with you. You don't remember that?
ZWERNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, eventually, Ms. Kovac left the room, correct?
ZWERNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you say, don't leave, please stay?
ZWERNER: She left to tell Dr. Parker that there was a potential of a gun on the student.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you don't know what she said to Dr. Parker, do you, Ms. Zwerner?
ZWERNER: I knew that she left to tell Dr. Parker what the students had told her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you don't know what Ms. Kovac told Dr. Parker.
ZWERNER: Her specific words? No, ma'am, I was not there with her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were not party to that conversation?
ZWERNER: Correct, I was not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when she left did you ask her to stay or to remove them from the room or to remove his backpack from the room?
ZWERNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, we have heard that...
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: All right, we're going to break away from this testimony at this time. You can continue to watch Abby's testimony and additional coverage of this trial on CNN.com and CNN All Access.
"INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" is next.
Thank you so much for joining us this morning. You can keep up with us on social media @WolfBlitzer and @PamelaBrownCNN.
