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WH Accelerates Push to Dismantle Education Department; Trump Designates Saudi Arabia as Major Non-NATO Ally; Senate Sends Bill Forcing Release of Epstein Files to Trump. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired November 19, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, the Trump administration is kicking its effort to dismantle the Education Department into overdrive. Secretary Linda McMahon cut nearly half her department staff earlier this year. And now, officials are taking more steps to convince Congress that the department isn't needed and should be eliminated.

CNN Washington Correspondent Sunlen Serfaty is here with her reporting. Sunlin, tell us more about these new steps.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a real significant change. And in line, Pam, with what the President Trump and Secretary Linda McMahon has long argued, that they want to dismantle the agency. And they have long said that they believe functions of the Department of Education can be easily moved to other parts of the federal government.

So, what we're seeing right now is they made a significant announcement yesterday, announcing that a significant amount of their workload is moving across the government. Six agencies within the Department of Education will go to other agencies, HHS, Labor, Interior, State Department. These are things like K through 12 grant programs, grant program for international education.

But that, of course, critics say, does this set up a more complicated web of federal bureaucracy. The secretary in making that announcement really hit back at that. She's called the action bold in a statement.

[10:35:00]

She said it will break up the federal education bureaucracy and return education to the states. She says that they believe it will be cutting through layers of red tape in Washington. It is one essential piece of our final mission. And, of course, that final mission there is significant because, in their eyes, their final mission is to utterly -- finally close the Department of Education. The secretary has acknowledged that this is not something that she can do without the approval of Congress. It takes an act of Congress.

But an official at the Department of Education told reporters yesterday that they believe that this move is, in part, to demonstrate to Congress that they can function without the Department of Education here. They said that we're looking forward to having these as proof points for success at what education can look like without the Department of Education building. So, this is a big test if they can ultimately get there.

BROWN: All right. We'll see. Sunlen Serfaty, thank you. Great to see you.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good reporting, Sunlen. Thank you for me as well. Also, this morning, President Trump is taking new steps to strengthen U.S. ties in the Middle East. Last night, he publicly announced he's formally designating Saudi Arabia as a major non-NATO ally. It comes after his White House guest, the crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, pledged to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in the United States.

I want to bring in The New York Times Gulf Bureau Chief Vivian Nereim. Vivian, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate your reporting. Does this mean the U.S. would actually have to come to Saudi Arabia's defense if it were attacked?

VIVIAN NEREIM, GULF BUREAU CHIEF, THE NEW YORK TIMES: What we know so far about the defense agreement is actually very little. It is not entirely clear what the terms of it are. We haven't seen very few details about what it is going to contain. I think we're going to have to wait, you know, in the coming weeks and months to see if any of that comes out.

This could be purely symbolic. It could still have a deterrent aspect to it if it is symbolic, but we have to kind of wait to find out more.

BROWN: We'll see what happens. A significant development. The Saudi crown prince, Vivian, as you know, told President Trump he's ready to work on joining, potentially, the so-called Abraham Accords that normalize relations with Israel, but he would only do that under one condition. I want you to listen to what MBS, Mohammed bin Salman, told reporters at the White House. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWN PRINCE MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN, SAUDI ARABIA: We want to be part of the Abraham Accords, but we want also to be sure that we secure a clear path of two-state solution. Today, we have a healthy discussion with Mr. President that we're going to work on that to be sure that we can prepare to the right situation as soon as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The crown prince says any agreement must provide a path for a Palestinian State, a two-state solution, Israel living alongside a new Palestinian State. How significant is this?

NEREIM: To be clear, this is the same line that the Crown Prince has been reiterating for years at this point, and I think there's some extent to which the White House and American politicians are hearing what they want to hear. The facts on the ground remain that any sort of two-state solution or Israeli recognition of a Palestinian State is just not in the cards anytime soon.

So, when Prince Mohammed is saying this, he's essentially saying normalization with Israel and Saudi Arabia is not going to happen anytime soon. But it sounds nice, and people can kind of take from it what they will.

BLITZER: Yes. I've been hearing from Saudi officials, Adel al-Jubeir, the former Saudi ambassador in Washington, and others, when I arrived in Jeddah on that first ever direct flight from Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv to Jeddah. That was with President Biden at the time. Adel al-Jubeir, he told me at the time there would be a willingness to join the so-called Abraham Accords, but only after Israel formally publicly acknowledged the need for a Palestinian State, which the Prime Minister Netanyahu flatly opposes, at least for now. Maybe a new Israeli government would go along with that, but not right now.

On top of this new security guarantee that Saudi Arabia got becoming a major non-NATO ally, President Trump confirmed he reached a controversial agreement with the crown prince to sell F-35 fighter jets to the Saudis. What do you make of how much the U.S. has offered to Saudi Arabia so far?

NEREIM: Well, I think -- you know, I hate to be a naysayer, but this is another one of those moments where we actually don't have any details about this F-35 sale, and it very well might not actually come through. Donald Trump agreed to sell F-35s to the United Arab Emirates, which is another close ally of the United States and the Gulf, and that was, you know, five years ago. Those jets have never come through. That deal has fallen apart.

Obviously, Saudi Arabia wants F-35 jets, and it is a symbolic win for them that the president essentially stood up and said, I want to give you them. I'm going to sell you them. I'm going to sell you the same jets that Israel has. But whether they're actually going to get those jets, which have a long production time, is, you know, very much a wait-and-see situation. So, there's a lot of agreements that have been promised. There's a lot of sort of symbolic statements have been made. But the substance of this visit on both ends is actually pretty limited right now.

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BLITZER: Vivian, as you know, the president, President Trump, rejected a CIA assessment yesterday that the Saudi crown prince likely ordered that the Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi's murder. His wife responded on CNN yesterday, Khashoggi's wife. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANAN ELATR KHASHOGGI, WIDOW OF JAMAL KHASHOGGI: It's a hell. It's seven years of hell, sir. It is basically I'm a second victim. They killed Jamal and they killed me in the same day they killed him. I don't have any normal life. I live isolated with less income. I'm speaking only to my first family because of sensitivity of my case.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: The crown prince said his country has, quote, "improved our system to be sure nothing like that happens again." Are there any indications that that is true?

NEREIM: That's a very good question. We don't really have a lot of transparency here in Saudi Arabia into the changes that have been made. There was some talk at the time of, you know, restructuring of the way that intelligence and national security would operate. We don't know what that meant. There was a trial. Various people who were involved in the sort of operation of killing Khashoggi were put on trial, were convicted. They were initially sentenced to death. Those death sentences were commuted.

In Saudi Arabia, this affair is essentially long over. They're not planning anything else in relationship to it. But it is something that has dogged and haunted the crown prince internationally since it happened.

BLITZER: Certainly has. Vivian Nereim of the New York Times, thanks so much for joining us.

NEREIM: Thank you for having me.

BLITZER: Pamela.

BROWN: All right, coming up, Wolf, with the Senate officially sending the Epstein files to the bill to the president's desk, a survivor of Epstein's abuse will tell us what the past 24 hours have meant to her.

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BROWN: Happening now, President Trump is expected to sign legislation compelling the Justice Department to release all of its files related to Jeffrey Epstein. And that could happen as soon as today. Both chambers of Congress advance it almost unanimously.

As lawmakers voted, one group on Capitol Hill was watching especially closely. A number of Epstein survivors were in Washington to persuade lawmakers to support the bill. Listen to one survivor's powerful message for President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY ROBSON, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: While I do understand that your position has changed on the Epstein files and I'm grateful that you have pledged to sign this bill, I can't help to be skeptical of what the agenda is. So, with that being said, I want to relay this message to you, I am traumatized. I am not stupid. I am traumatized. I am not stupid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Haley Robson joins us now in the Situation Room. So, Haley, you have been fighting for a long time to even get to this point, right? Now, that the legislation is officially moving forward, what do you say to the president?

ROBSON: I say that the flip-flop and the back-and-forth has been nothing short of nauseating and embarrassing. I think that you had 2024 campaigned on this, so it's very overdue for the survivors. I think that if you would like to clear your name once and for all and let's put the past behind us so we can all move forward in a positive direction and finally get the justice and clarity that we deserve, I suggest that we follow through with our promises, we follow through with what we have said we were going to do, because at the end of the day, we only have integrity and we only have our word. So, I would like to see him sign this and let's get through it.

BROWN: You're a Republican. You've spoken about that. I wonder what your reaction is to Speaker Johnson saying that this vote was a political show vote by the Democrats.

ROBSON: Well, I was present in the room when they were doing the votes as well as all the survivors, and I can say the only theatrics I saw was from him. I think some of his comments were on that fine line. This is not a hoax. There is no theater coming from us or the survivors on our end. I'm appalled by him in general, and I've lost a lot of respect by him.

BROWN: Why do you say that?

ROBSON: Just the back and forth with Adelita Grijalva, you will never convince me --

BROWN: Because she was a deciding vote at the time for the petition. That's why you said that. OK.

ROBSON: Yes. And you will never convince me that shutting down the government for 50 days and in those 50 days was when we needed them the most. And in those 50 days, we don't know what happened. We just know that you wouldn't swear on Adelita Grijalva. And I'm sure there was more pressing issues and policies that came to light in that decision making.

But this has been an issue that has been very important to the American people and something that he campaigned on. And when you have a policy or procedures that need to be done for the American people, I feel it's in America's best interest and the people's best interest if you follow through and get things done instead of just closing off. Surely, they are the adults. Surely, they can figure it out.

BROWN: And, yes, the shutdown was 44 days and he was pressed on that issue. And he said it didn't have to do with the Epstein files, that it was because the Democrats weren't signing the CR. That was what he said. And he is arguing, as he held in this press conference yesterday, that this is a show vote and that, really, he had been wanting amendments to it because this is a show vote in terms of, you know, the Democrats, Republicans coming together to vote for this. But he said that the majority of the survivors for Epstein have not spoken out.

[10:50:00] And he was concerned that this could harm innocent people and or other survivors who want to stay private or people who have nothing to do with this.

ROBSON: Well, no, that's actually inaccurate, in my opinion, because the survivors that don't want to be public are Jane Doe's. They've been protected and their names have been redacted this whole time as Jane Doe's. The only people that you need to worry about are the survivors that are in those files and documents that are public and that are on the right side of things and whose names have never been redacted. I'm one of those people and I've been very vocal on.

I don't care if my name is redacted or not. My survivor sisters are important to me. And if that means that my name doesn't get redacted, but the files come out, that is the right thing to do. And that is it. There's no conversation that needs to partake in any of this.

And honestly, this is where the administration failed, the American people, not just the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein. You lose all credibility when you go back on your promises to the American people and the survivors that you campaigned on in 2024. You lose all credibility when you play the flip-flop game and you start intimidating people in your own party like Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene that are on the right side of things. That's when you lose credibility. And you don't just lose credibility with your party. You lose credibility with your constituents. And I don't think Trump understands who some of his constituents are.

And so, for me, anything that comes from Johnson, the House speaker, or this administration, I take with a grain of salt.

BROWN: So, then are you concerned there will be more roadblocks to getting these files published, even if the president signs it, as we do expect?

ROBSON: Absolutely, I expect it. I'm waiting for it. There's -- I want to be hopeful, but I have to be practical and realistic. And I've been doing this for well over 10 years. I've been very public and very vocal. And there is nothing they're going to tell me that I'm going to wholeheartedly believe anymore. You already failed me. And the government failed me. And when I cast that ballot for you, for President Trump, I truly wholeheartedly believed him when he, in 2024, said that he wanted transparency and that he would do this.

But how can I believe a government who has ignored me for five administrations, who has not acknowledged any of us, who has pretty much swept us under the rug and tried to drown us out and drown our voices out, and then here we are five administrations later on somebody who finally said they were going to do the right thing, and then here we are now, you know, it's obstacle after obstacle. And it's like, we didn't need to do all this with the Senate and the House. The survivors didn't need to come back to Washington.

Trump could have done this without us. He could have just signed it. There's no amendments that are needed.

BROWN: Or directed DOJ, you're saying, to release the files.

ROBSON: Correct. Correct.

BROWN: Do you also put onus on Democrats, though, when they were in power?

ROBSON: It is not a one-party problem. This is, you know, non- bipartisan. Democrats have equally failed us. Again, five administrations that we have gone through, and all five have not done anything. However, I cannot keep going back into the past and searching for answers. I have to face what I'm living through today. And what I'm living through in the present is an administration, and the only administration in five years that campaigned on releasing the files. Where are the files?

BROWN: What are you expecting to be released? What could come out? I mean, you have a lot of knowledge. You were used by Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell to recruit. You were a victim of sexual abuse. What could come out here? I know there's thousands of tapes. I was told by Republican congressmen. I mean, what are we talking about here?

ROBSON: I think we're talking about diabolical sexual abuse, manipulation, coercive control. You are going to see the most prolific predator move and work in ways to build an empire on destroying the innocence of children.

BROWN: Do you think people would be surprised by some of the people he was in contact with about this?

ROBSON: My shock value is nonexistent, I'm so sorry, because I find this whole entirety to be appalling and just comical at this point that we've had to struggle for this long. So, my shock value is not really present. I think as far as the American people go, I think the American people have an idea of this being both sides of the bird, and there being specific, you know, high-profile people.

[10:55:00]

I was never trafficked. I was sexually abused for two years by Jeffrey. So, I wouldn't know names that are specifically on the list.

BROWN: Clients that he was --

ROBSON: But absolutely, I think we will find that there are Hollywood actors and actresses and politicians. I think you're going to find a world collected of billionaires, people with wealth, status, people with resources. And I think you're going to find a lot of that. To me, it won't be shocking.

BROWN: And you know that because you've talked to other survivors?

ROBSON: Absolutely. We talk. It's a community. We share information. We share conversations. And some of those conversations have been about certain people. It is damning, and it's heartbreaking. And I do think the American people are going to be surprised at the details, more so than the individuals. BROWN: Does what you know explain it all, this back and forth, and why it has been so difficult?

ROBSON: Yes, yes.

BROWN: In what way?

ROBSON: When you're in it, and you're living it, and it is your truth, and you are knee-deep in it, there are things that I know that legally I cannot say. There are things the other girls know that they legally cannot say. It goes back to the list. A couple of the girls said that they would gather together some information. They would make a list.

But it goes back to Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie. If we were to get on the floor and start naming people, we would be sued into homelessness. We would probably end up murdered. I mean, our lives would be dismantled. And we've gone through enough trauma. And just being out here and being so public, we're taking a risk.

Look at what they're doing to Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie. Political violence doesn't belong in our country, in our society. Everybody has a right to believe in what they choose. Everybody has a right to be a Republican or a Democrat. Everybody has a right to believe in what they choose to believe. And it doesn't matter what their political affiliation is, because it's a human issue.

BROWN: Yes, and you're talking about the political threats. Marjorie Taylor Greene was supposed to come on with you today, and she has been very outspoken about the threats that she has been getting from people after President Trump went after her. So, Haley Robson, thank you so much.

ROBSON: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: We really appreciate you coming on and using your voice.

BLITZER: Thanks for me as well. It's been heartbreaking to hear what you and your sisters are saying out there. Just awful.

ROBSON: Thank you so much for the support and the time and the platform. I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you all.

BROWN: Of course.

BLITZER: And let's not forget, once the House of Representatives passes legislation and it goes to the Senate and the Senate passes the same legislation, then goes to the White House and the president signs it into law, it's the law of the land. If they don't implement what is signed into law, they are breaking the law. So, let's see what happens.

ROBSON: Absolutely.

BROWN: All right. Thank you so much. ROBSON: Thank you.

BROWN: And we should also note that if you or anyone you know is struggling after a sexual assault, the National Sexual Assault Hotline is available 24 hours a day at 1-800-656-4673. We'll be right back.

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