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Attendees Arrive at National Cathedral for Former V.P. Dick Cheney's Funeral; Soon, Funeral Begins for Former Vice President Dick Cheney. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired November 20, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: I am Pamela Brown along with Dana Bash, and you are watching CNN's special coverage of former Vice President Dick Cheney's funeral.

Right now, attendees are arriving at the Washington National Cathedral where services will begin next hour. Cheney remembered as America's most powerful modern vice president died this month at the age of 84. He was the chief architect of the war on terror and helped lead the U.S. into the Iraq war under President George W. Bush.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: And much later, Cheney broke with many in his own party when he, along with his daughter, then-Congresswoman Liz Cheney, condemned President Trump's challenges to the 2020 election results, leaving Dick Cheney and Democrats in a place no one ever anticipated, political allies.

Now, neither President Trump nor Vice President Vance was invited to Cheney's funeral today, but other living vice presidents, former vice presidents, four of them will attend along with former Presidents Bush and Biden, of course, Biden, also a former vice president.

BROWN: Let's go live now to CNN Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny at the National Cathedral here in Washington. And, Jeff, I see there you're joined by an important funeral attendee, former Vice President Mike Pence.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Pamela and Dana. We are, as we, the nation, gathers to mourn and remember, vice President Dick Cheney, we are here with former Vice President Mike Pence. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Vice President.

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks for having me.

ZELENY: How do you believe that Vice President Cheney will be remembered in history?

PENCE: Well, I think Vice President Dick Cheney is going to be remembered as an American patriot, but an extraordinary public servant. And when you think of a lifetime that spanned and not only service in Congress where he was in leadership, but being one of the youngest chiefs of staff for a president, with President Gerald Ford, going on to being the secretary of defense for President George Herbert Walker Bush, and then, of course, vice president of President George W. Bush. I mean, there are very few Americans who have served at such levels with such distinction as Dick Cheney.

But I think more than that, Jeff, I think he will be remembered as a man who was there at critical moments in the life of the nation. In the wake of Watergate, we had President Gerald Ford, who made that hard decision to pardon President Nixon to move the country forward and to a time to heal. Dick Cheney was there as his chief of staff, Operation Desert Storm under President George Herbert Walker Bush, or where he was Secretary of Defense in an extraordinary American military victory. And then, of course, being there on September 11th, a day those of us who were serving in Washington at the time will never forget. I believe his steady hand through all those years contributed mightily to the life in the nation and he'll be remembered and honored for that.

ZELENY: As you walk through his time of service here in Washington, it's extraordinary, from the 70s of the youngest White House chief of staff to the 80s, a member of Congress from Wyoming, defense secretary in the 90s, and the vice president in the 2000s. There's really no one in history who has that trajectory. But you have one that is similar in terms of serving in Congress and the vice presidency. What did he tell you when you were on the cusp of taking office about what that role was like and how to embrace it, and how did he change it?

PENCE: Well, I think he did change it in many ways. The critics of the Bush administration like to exaggerate his role. But there's no question in my mind that throughout those eight years, he was a steady hand and a support to President George W. Bush, who we'll hear from today, who I'm sure will extol the virtues of his role as a vice president.

But to your point, Jeff, right after we were elected and in 2016, an election that Vice President Cheney strongly supported, and we were grateful for that, he called me up and gave me some very sage advice.

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ZELENY: What did he tell you?

PENCE: Well, he actually first told me his practice was to take his presidential daily brief first thing in the morning at the vice president's residence before joining the president for his presidential daily brief. And I made that my practice literally every day for four years. And it was a way that he said you will be better equipped to be able to advise the president if you know in advance what's coming and can run that through the filter of the president's priorities.

And, secondly, he did encourage me to spend a lot of time on Capitol Hill, which was easy for me, as it was for him. He was a member of Congress for a decade. He was the Republican Conference chairman, which was a role that I served in. But he was the one that said to me that don't just go to Capitol Hill when the administration is looking for something or looking for a vote. Go on a regular basis, which I sought to do for those regular luncheons in the U.S. Senate.

And I'll never forget, those were two pieces of advice that I think contributed to the success of their administration and I know they contributed to the success of ours.

ZELENY: As we all well remember a year ago, he broke ranks with the party and he supported Vice President Harris in her presidential bid. At the time he did so, he said that there was no greater threat to the republic than Donald Trump. Do you think his words have come true?

PENCE: Well, look, I have great confidence in the future of this country and great confidence in the strength of our republic. I would never begrudge the late vice president his opinions or political judgment. But at the end of the day, I think his lifetime is evidence of the fact of really the strength of this nation. And in a very real sense as we go forward, I think, people will continue to be inspired by his devotion to our military, his devotion to our national defense and a lifetime of service, and that's where we should focus today.

ZELENY: He also warned about what U.S. allies abroad would think about the changes in America. I'm wondering, as we saw this week with President Trump sitting alongside the Saudi Crown Prince talking about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, President Trump said things happen. What did you think when you heard that?

PENCE: Well, I looked on at that and obviously, look, one of the things that Dick Cheney understood that I understood as vice president is that any president has to take the world as it comes. And the opportunity to move forward with Saudi Arabia in the hopes that Saudi Arabia will someday even join the Abraham Accords that we minted during our administration. I think it's understandable.

But one of the things as I just returned from a swing through the United Kingdom, one of the things about Vice President Cheney's long career was the belief in the importance of those long-term alliances, particularly with our NATO allies, and as we did in our time, he did in his time, calling on our NATO allies to live up to their obligations.

ZELENY: But what message does that send to the NATO allies when President Trump said something like that?

PENCE: Well, I believe that the clarity with which the president will speak in the days ahead must include our commitment to stand with free nations around the world, and especially those who've helped us build this extraordinary transatlantic alliance. It's important that we continue to advance peace in the Middle East. It's important that we make it clear to our lives in the Asia Pacific that we will stand for freedom.

But in the days ahead, I'm hopeful the president will continue to reiterate our strong commitment, not only to peace in Eastern Europe as Russia continues to prosecute its unprovoked and brutal invasion of Ukraine but also ultimately to strengthen the alliances that have served the cause of peace and security in the world. That's what Dick Cheney's great legacy, I believe, in many respects was that bulwark of freedom literally in this country with a strong national defense.

You know, I don't think it is an accident that we haven't had a major terrorist event happen on our shores since September 11th, 2001. I think it was the strong leadership President Bush provided, his successors provided, our administration provided to invest in our national defense. And I honestly think that will be Vice President Cheney's great legacy, his support for our military and support for our national security at home and abroad.

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ZELENY: He said country over party. That was one of his closing messages over the last year. As you prepare to take your seat in the cathedral here, there will be a tapestry of Republicans and Democrats, Speaker Boehner, Speaker Pelosi, President Biden, former Vice President Dan Quayle. What does this moment say, do you believe, and can the country move beyond the bitter divide that it's now in?

PENCE: Oh, I'm confident it can. Look, our politics are more divided than any time in my lifetime, but I'm not convinced the American people are as divided as our politics the American people, I think, as you will see today with the turnout here at the National Cathedral admire and respect men and women who step forward either to put on the uniform of the United States, the uniform of law enforcement, or be in public life. And I think the honor that will be paid to the life and legacy of our 46th vice president will give evidence of those shared values that we have in this country. And on that foundation of shared values, I'm very confident that we'll continue to move our country forward together.

ZELENY: Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for your time.

PENCE: Thank you.

ZELENY: I appreciate it.

And, Pamela and Dana, as the service begins in the coming hour, President George W. Bush will be delivering a eulogy as well as, of course, Liz Cheney, the former vice president's daughter, as well as some grandchildren. So, this service will be getting underway later this hour. Back to you.

BASH: All right. Thank you so much, Jeff. And thank you so much, Mr. Vice President, for that really interesting conversation. I know we're going to sneak in a quick break, but we really learned something from Vice President Pence there, first of all, that the late vice president, Dick Cheney, recommended to Pence that when he became vice president, he got his presidential daily brief, known as the PDB, at the vice president's residence before he got to the White House. So, he understood what the president was going to be learning that day so he could better advise him. You know, especially when you are somebody like Mike Pence, who had a lot of experience in government and at that time Trump had zero experience in government, that was noteworthy advice. BROWN: No, that was. And it was also interesting that he said that politics right now are divided as much as it's ever been in my lifetime. But he said he doesn't think the American people are divided. And it's worth noting that, because as we were showing some of the attendees who were there, this is really a reflection of a bipartisan Washington of the past. You have Speaker Emeritus Nancy Pelosi there, Democratic Congressman Raskin, who, of course, served on the January 6th committee with Liz Cheney.

BASH: You see the Vice President Gore there.

BROWN: Like Vice President Gore. I believe every former living vice president is there. And we should note that President Trump and Vice President Vance were not invited to this.

BASH: Yes, that's right.

BROWN: All right. Stay with us. We have much more special coverage of former Vice President Dick Cheney's funeral just ahead.

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BROWN: As we wait for former Vice President Dick Cheney's funeral to begin, we have a panel of terrific reporters and analysts here to discuss the late vice president's influence and legacy, CNN Washington Bureau Chief and Political Director David Chalian, CNN Anchor and Host of The Assignment podcast Audie Cornish, former Republican Congressman of Pennsylvania Charlie Dent, and CNN Presidential Historian Tim Naftali.

BROWN: So, let's start with Tim, because, Tim, I understand that you've interviewed Dick Cheney in the past. And I'm wondering as you look at today and reflect, explain just how powerful Cheney was in shaping the role of the American vice presidency.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, Walter Mondale reshaped the modern vice presidency, but Dick Cheney gave it teeth. Dick Cheney was, without a doubt, the most powerful and influential vice president of the modern era in the United States. There is no doubt about it.

We will be talking about his foreign policy legacy. There's no escaping it. But let's not forget that he was essential in negotiating two tax cut bills in Congress. He was the first vice president to have two offices in Congress. He got one in the House. They always get one in the Senate, but he got one in the House because he had been minority whip.

So, he was important to the George W. Bush administration's legislative agenda at home, not just his foreign policy. And he developed a group of experts in foreign policy, which the elder Bush called a sort of separate State Department that also participated in negotiations and discussions and actually leaked on behalf of certain policies to move the George W. Bush administration in a certain direction.

One of the things I'm watching today, and I hope many at home will too, is that despite the fact that Dick Cheney was a proponent of a strong presidency, Dick Cheney is one of the architects of the modern conservative movement. You will see liberals and moderates and conservatives honoring his service as an American patriot. There was a time, and people are forgetting it now, when people across the aisle who disagreed, respected one another. That respect we'll see today for a man, many of those who were mourning him today didn't agree with.

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BASH: Yes. I think that's true, Tim, but it is intensified because of the stance that Dick Cheney took in the last years of his life.

NAFTALI: I don't doubt it.

BASH: Which was voting for not one but two Democrats for president.

NAFTALI: Dana, there's something really important here about this man. He advocated for a strong presidency. He disliked the restrictions on the presidency that developed as a result of Watergate and Vietnam. And he was obsessive about pushing the presidential button, if you will.

When he saw that someone came to the presidency who was ill-equipped, and more than that, poisonous, he realized that one of his great professional objectives had led to a disaster for the country. And that's why he said he would not vote for Donald Trump. But it's this man's honesty about what he was trying to achieve that strikes me as a core of his public service. Like his views are not, he was a man of integrity and honesty.

BASH: I can just add to that because I covered Dick Cheney when he was vice president and traveled on a couple of international trips with him. And it was during that time that he was very open about talking to reporters on the plane, not just about the meetings that he was having, but about his own ideology and philosophy.

And I'm just looking back at his resume. He became White House chief of staff in 1975, and he was very, very upfront and honest about the fact that he saw the way that Congress pulled back, in his view, way too much the power from the executive, and he was determined to use his position as vice president to try to claw some of that back.

BROWN: Yes. No, it's really interesting. And then he went on years later, right? He was a proponent of expanding the power of the executive branch of the presidency. And then as you spoke to, Tim, the way he responded after January 6th was really incredible. He spent his entire life as a hard line conservative, and then he went on to say that Donald Trump, President Trump was the biggest threat to our republic in our history. You heard Jeff Zeleny ask former Vice President Mike Pence there. He didn't want to answer that directly, but that was a really notable moment.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Not only did the former Vice President Mike Pence not answer directly in his answer, there was not a syllable of support for Donald Trump, the president he served in his entire answer about that, which I thought was clearly not by mistake.

I do think, to your point, Tim, putting teeth into it, the power of what he did domestically, of course, but it all kind of starts with how he became vice president. I mean, he was in charge of the selection process for George W. Bush to find a vice president. And this goes in American political history lore now. It's like somebody -- it's like an expression. You're going to pull a Cheney if you're in charge of a process and then end up with the appointment.

And I think I don't say that glibly. I think, clearly, as they went through that process, George W. Bush saw in the man he had asked to head up that process, the qualities he was looking for in a partner as he was about to potentially take on this role.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Cheney also said that he wanted it to be a substantive position, that he said, quote, he didn't want it to be just funerals and fundraisers. So, even as he was looking and as that shifted towards him, I think he was always very clear on that not being a figurehead job for him. And I think that's why we're all talking so much about how much he changed it despite someone like Mondale having made those sort of initial pushes in this direction. Cheney went in saying, no, no, no, none of this can be just for -- just to be seen, like I have to be doing something.

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He was the chief operating officer of the United States. I mean, when you really think about it, he operated at the direction of the president, but this guy could pull levers. He was a serious man, he could get things done and everybody knew it.

And, you know, I was elected to Congress first time in 2004. One of the first things I did in 2005 was vote to certify his reelection. I remember talking to Dick Cheney the day of the certification on the back rail, just about nothing, just having a good time, and then the Ohio certification was challenged. You remember, Bush-Cheney won by a hundred thousand votes and we had to go through a vote. And then 20 years later, of course, or nearly 20 years later, we dealt with, you know, the January 6th events with his daughter.

BROWN: And so just to circle back what you were saying and what you sort of touched on there about Dick Cheney really putting teeth into the vice presidency. I mean, we do have to note, and you had mentioned it, the foreign policy and the fact that he was a lightning rod for critics, right? I mean, he was behind some of the more controversial policies in the Bush administration when it comes to enhanced interrogation, right, when it comes to the Iraq war, but he never backed down.

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I mean, he was pressed by our own Wolf Blitzer on that, and he never sort of backed down on what he did in his role. NAFTALI: Well, I remember I took a group of with my colleague at the University of Virginia. We took a group of students to the CIA for a visit. And we had a pretty high level -- it wasn't a tour guide but let's say guide who was complaining to us, probably shouldn't have been, about how difficult it was because the vice president had just been there with a team to scrub some estimates and scrub some intelligence.

And this was something completely new in the history of U.S. intelligence for the vice president to go to Langley and basically to tell the analysts and the operators, show me this, why do you believe this, Cheney was pushing the line that there was a connection between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein at that point.

BASH: And he was very upfront, again, about the fact that being the one in the White House on 9/11 when the president was traveling that day, being the one in the White House bunker to have to give the orders to potentially shoot down a commercial aircraft filled with civilians, but potentially to be used as a missile after we saw that happening already changed him forever.

BROWN: Yes. I mean, our Jamie Gangel has talked about that. She's talked to him at length over the years. And she said that the fact that he was in the White House on 9/11 really shaped him in how he responded in those ways.

NAFTALI: Well, George Herbert Walker Bush told John Meacham, his authorized biographer, that he felt Cheney had changed, that the Cheney of his son's administration was not the same as the Cheney of his.

BROWN: He did.

NAFTALI: And John Meacham is an excellent historian. He showed Cheney the transcript of his conversation with the elder Bush. And Cheney's point was, I didn't change. The world changed. This is not the Cold War. The war on terror required a different approach to power

So, he always disagreed that he was a tougher, more inflexible person in the George W. Bush administration. He just felt the world was tougher and more inflexible.

CORNISH: And a different approach to power on U.S. soil, that he believed that before 9/11, law enforcement, they dealt with terrorism. After it, he said it was a war. And I think even now we're wrestling with that, who does the policing where and what's effective.

DENT: Well, he wanted a proactive approach to dealing with terrorism. Law enforcement was more of a reactive process. And we should also give him and President Bush credit. You know, they built a whole homeland security architecture that did not exist pre-9/11. You know, we have the TSA, Container Security Initiative, you know, director of National Intelligence, and, frankly, kept our country safe, didn't exist prior to 9/11.

BROWN: Yes. I mean, again, that was what Jamie Gangel reported after talking to him in his final years that he really wanted to protect the country and that is why he did what he did.

Everyone stand by. We're looking here at the National Cathedral. The funeral is set to get underway at 11:00 A.M. Eastern Time. We have much more special coverage of former Vice President Dick Cheney's funeral just ahead.

Stay with us.

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