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The Situation Room

CDC Advisers Set to Vote on Childhood Vaccines Changes; FBI Makes Arrest in D.C. Pipe Bomb Case; ICE Immigration Crackdown in New Orleans and Minnesota; Pilot Forced to Eject from F-16C Jet in Mojave Desert. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired December 04, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, a CDC advisory committee is meeting and could vote just in the coming hours on possible changes to the childhood vaccine schedule. It could delay the hepatitis B vaccine normally given to newborns by weeks or even years.

Joining us now is Dr. Michael Osterholm. He is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. Nice to see you, Dr. Osterholm. So, bottom line, what is the main thing people need to know about this meeting and why this is such a big deal?

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY: Well, I think the immediate issue, of course, is what does this mean for individuals who may be infected with hepatitis B and deliver a child which then transmits the virus during the birthing process to that child? And what, of course, that means in terms of them becoming infected in the long-term health implications.

[10:35:00]

But I think it even has a bigger impact today in terms of a historic moment in public health. And that is, remember right now that all of the information we have from over 400 studies and over the past 40 years show that these doses delivered to an infant at birth are absolutely critical in stopping this transmission from a mother to a baby. And all the science supports that. The only group right now that is saying to the contrary is this administration.

And we now have come to the point, I believe, with the vote being taken this afternoon, which will, in fact, affirm the idea that the dose should no longer be administered, really means you cannot trust the U.S. federal government or the agencies of government to provide accurate scientific information to the public. We now have lost CDC and the advisory immunization practices as credible, reliable sources of information.

BROWN: So, looking at the hepatitis B vaccine specifically, RFK Jr. has said that that transmission can be determined by testing the mother to see if she has it. And if she doesn't, there wouldn't be a need for the baby to get the vaccine. That has been his argument. Can you explain that rationale and if there is some truth behind that?

DR. OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, at face value, it seems to make sense until you hit reality. And that reality is if you look at our health care system today and the fractured nature of follow-up and how individuals are actually brought into the system, when are they potentially in the system to be tested and what that means. And you'll find that we tried using that very approach up until 1991 and continue to see thousands of cases each year of hepatitis B in kids.

It was only with this particular recommendation now to deliver vaccine to all children at birth that we saw more than a 95 percent drop in hepatitis B transmission from mom to baby. So, we've tried this whole system and it doesn't work. It won't deliver what they promised that it will. And so, I think that the message is why are you trying to change something for which we have ample evidence that it works?

And remember, it's not just someone like me saying this. This is being stated by the medical societies who are responsible for providing the care of everyday doctors and nurses to their patients. It's academic centers that have studied this at length, there is just no one else out there that believes that we should change this. And again, this is basically a solution looking for a problem.

BROWN: So, in terms of what you just pointed out, why were those cases missed? Was it because of false negatives?

DR. OSTERHOLM: It's because people fall through the cracks all the time. You know, depending on, again, race, ethnicity, where your health care is provided, 20 to 25 percent of patients present for delivery who have never been tested before, who have no idea. Then you have some who have acquired the hepatitis B virus actually from the time that they were tested and now to the time that the baby is delivered.

And so, again, I just come back to the real world. We have seen a 95 percent reduction in overall transmission of this virus from infected moms to their babies using the approach we're talking here. And that was only after decades of trying to bring that number down using the very approach that the administration is proposing.

So, again, why are we looking at this? Again, this is not about science. This is about ideology. This is why this is such a sad day because it really does mean we no longer, in this country, can trust the CDC or the advisory communication practices or for that matter, the FDA to give us scientifically sound information. We've got to find new sources. Our government's disqualified itself.

BROWN: Well -- and you are joining a growing chorus of former FDA and CDC leaders who are sounding the alarm about the fate of U.S. vaccine policy, warning that recently appointed advisers are putting the public's health at risk. Another thing that they're looking at is the aluminum quantity in these vaccines. Why is that an area of focus?

DR. OSTERHOLM: Again, we don't know why. And I say that because aluminum salts, which are an additive that are put into the vaccine to help boost the ability of the vaccine to actually create the immunity that it does, have been evaluated over and over and over and over again, and including very large studies involving millions of children in places like Denmark that show absolutely no deleterious effects, no impact of these aluminum salts on the health of the child beyond just making it for a better immune response. And so, it's another example of a solution looking for a problem.

They will continue to keep posing anything and everything that could possibly mean that the vaccines aren't safe. And if something appears to be disproved, meaning that we have enough data to say there's no way that that's part of it, they'll find something else.

[10:40:00]

And so, I think that at this point, we just have to accept the fact that ideology is driving these policies. It has nothing to do with science. And after 50 years of being in the business, I could never have imagined being at this place in modern public health. But we're here. We cannot let black magic and witchcraft, in a sense, guide where these vaccines should be used.

BROWN: All right. Dr. Michael Osterholm, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

DR. OSTERHOLM: Thank you.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Just ahead, we're following this morning's top story. Sources telling CNN the FBI has arrested the person believed to have placed pipe bombs around Washington, D.C., nearly five years ago. We'll be joined live by the former Homeland Security Secretary, Jeh Johnson, and we will discuss.

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[10:45:00]

BLITZER: We're following the breaking news, sources telling CNN the FBI has finally arrested a man it believes planted pipe bombs near the headquarters of the Republican National Committee and the Democratic National Committee here in Washington just before the January 6th riots.

I want to bring in former President Obama's Homeland Security Secretary, the former General Counsel also at the U.S. Defense Department, Jeh Johnson. Secretary, thanks so much for being with us. Are you surprised, first of all, at how long it took, nearly five years, for the investigators to make an actual arrest in the pipe bomb case?

JEH JOHNSON, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, if I'd say yes and no, very often trails go cold after a period of days or weeks when you're looking for a criminal suspect like this, but I think this is a testament to the dedication and perseverance of the FBI and federal law enforcement.

I'd be very interested to know, now that this person's been arrested, whether he had any co-conspirators, others who aided and abetted this effort in building the pipe bomb or otherwise. And if this person decides to talk, we're going to learn a lot more.

BLITZER: We'll see if he was a lone individual or if he had accomplices potentially out there, and I'm sure that's what they're searching for right now.

JOHNSON: Exactly.

BLITZER: I want to turn, while I have you, Mr. Secretary, to the Trump administration's new fronts in its immigration crackdown across the United States. ICE is now taking direct aim at Somali migrants in Minnesota after President Trump actually called them -- and this is his word, he called them garbage. Border patrol agents are also on the ground in New Orleans, forcing many migrants to not leave their homes or show up for work. How concerning is all of this to you as the former Homeland Security Secretary?

JOHNSON: Well, look, in this country, we have to have border security. We have to enforce our immigration laws, and it depends on how you do that. We should be prioritizing criminals, threats to public safety, national security, and this administration appeared to be starting out to do that in its deportation efforts. I think that's a good thing.

What I used to say to people at DHS when I was secretary, Tom Homan included, was that one high-profile incident, one high-profile controversial incident in a particular community, like dragging a grandmother off church steps or a kid out of school can derail your entire effort within a community to enforce our immigration laws, and that's what this administration is doing right now on steroids.

A lot of people in the community, including local law enforcement, are turning against ICE and undermining the effort to strengthen public safety and enforce the immigration laws. I think that's unfortunate.

BLITZER: Very unfortunate indeed. The current Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, says she will recommend a travel ban on several countries she claims are flooding the U.S. with criminal activity. Already 19 countries around the world, 19 countries, are subject to a full or partial travel ban here in the United States, but as many as 10 more could quickly be added. Is this something you think is needed?

JOHNSON: No, not in those terms, not in that scope. You know, in reaction to the tragic shooting last week right there in Washington, D.C., the president wants to ban all migrants coming from Afghanistan. That's a little like -- you know, it's somebody from Montana, for example. A criminally deranged person in Montana shoots somebody. Do you ban travel from the state of Montana by all people who live there? No, of course not. There needs to be a much more targeted approach.

I don't believe that there was absolutely no vetting leading up to this individual's grant of asylum in April of 2025. Between January and 2025 and April 2025, there must have been some vetting before this person was granted, contrary to what Secretary Noem said last Sunday in the press. BLITZER: I want to ask you, Mr. Secretary, about Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary's rather shifting response on this issue of the so- called double strike against an alleged drug boat in the Caribbean. Hegseth said this week he didn't stick around for the remainder of the mission, saying the admiral in charge, not Hegseth, issued the second- strike order that killed the boat's remaining survivors. You and I got to know each other when you served as the Pentagon's general counsel, the top lawyer over at the Pentagon. You know these issues well. What do you make of this development?

[10:50:00]

JOHNSON: Wolf, I believe there needs to be public congressional committee hearings about this incident and the overall operation, the overall mission. My personal belief is that without congressional authorization, and there is none in this case, this whole effort is beyond presidential war powers. With regard to the September 2nd incident, I believe there needs to be public hearings. It's not classified. They declassified the videos of these strikes moments after they occur. People need to testify under oath.

You know, I've been in these behind-closed-door briefings to Congress where, frankly, select people from the administration come in, they bob and weave, they give incomplete answers and wait for it to be over. And the public at large does not know what is said behind these closed doors. I think it's -- I think the public has a right to know exactly what is being done in our name in these extrajudicial killings in the Caribbean and the high seas.

BLITZER: Yes.

JOHNSON: And so, I'd like to see the Armed Services Committee step up and conduct public hearings here.

BLITZER: Secretary, Pamela has a quick question for you as well.

BROWN: Yes, just very quickly, Secretary, I'm just wondering, if you were still at the Pentagon and General Counsel, whether what we're hearing from sources that the second strike happened because the survivors were radioing in for help and therefore their mission could continue, that they pose an ongoing threat, whether that justification would work for you?

JOHNSON: No. If they somehow had access to a working radio on a boat that has just been blown up, smoldering, it was almost certainly to, you know, help save us out here on the high seas. And, you know, in terms of the second tap, the strike, that is, generally speaking, contrary to the laws of war, contrary to the UCMJ. First of all, you cannot have a no prisoners policy. And there's a concept in French called hors de combat. Once someone is disabled and wholly out of the fight, you can't then subsequently kill them.

And so, I'd like to see the video. The video should be declassified. I suspect it is going to be graphic. It is going to be horrible. And I think the public should see it. They show us the videos of the first strikes within minutes of when they occur. So, I think that Americans at large should see what the U.S. military is doing at the direction of this secretary of defense and this president.

BROWN: And the president said that the video should be released.

BLITZER: He said that.

BROWN: So, we'll see.

BLITZER: Let's see if it is. All right. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us.

BROWN: Thank you.

BLITZER: Thanks for all your service. We're grateful to you. We'll be right back.

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[10:55:00]

BROWN: Happening now, the Pentagon is investigating after a fighter jet pilot was forced to eject before a fiery crash. This happened in the Southern California desert. The F-16C fighter jet is part of the Air Force's Elite Thunderbirds demonstration squadron. The pilot was on a training mission in the Mojave Desert when they were forced to eject. The Air Force says it is investigating what happened here.

BLITZER: Worrisome indeed. Coming up after the break, the Minneapolis police chief joins us live to discuss the anxiety in Minneapolis as the Trump administration looks to target the Somali community.

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