Return to Transcripts main page

The Situation Room

U.S. Continues Strikes on Iran; Interview With Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL); Interview With Former Vice President Mike Pence. Aired 10:30a-11a ET

Aired July 21, 2026 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And this is a subject very close to your heart, right?

SEN. TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): It very much is so, because I had both my girls through in vitro fertilization as a result of infertility that I -- that I suffer from because of my military service.

And so we do see that the rates of infertility among both men and women in the military is more than double that of the general population. So, we should be helping our military men and women gain access to technologies that will help them to start their families. They deserve to be able to do that.

BLITZER: Yes, you make important points indeed.

Senator Tammy Duckworth, thanks so much for joining us. And, once again, thanks for your military service. We appreciate it very much.

And just ahead: new details emerging about the man accused of causing that fiery attack outside a New York City federal building. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:15]

BLITZER: Happening now: An Israeli source tells CNN that, in June of last year, Iran actually moved its advanced centrifuges and parts of its uranium stockpile to a fortified underground facility.

The removal of that near-bomb-grade uranium is a key war goal for the U.S. and Israel. Also this morning, Iran's president now says his country is in -- quote -- "engaged in a full-scale war" -- end quote -- with the United States.

The U.S. military says it has wrapped up its 10th straight night of strikes on Iran. The Pentagon also says nearly 100 U.S. service members have suffered at least some level of injury over the past two weeks, and all but a few have returned to duty; 18 U.S. service members have been killed.

Joining us now is CNN global affairs analyst Brett McGurk. Brett, thanks very much for joining us.

Let's begin with this latest report of Iran moving its advanced centrifuges and enriched uranium to this new underground fortified site. How concerning is that?

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: If that's true, Wolf, that's deeply deeply concerning. This is -- this site is called Pickaxe Mountain. It's near Natanz, and it is -- you remember Fordow from last summer, which U.S. military forces very effectively struck.

Pickaxe Mountain is deeper and kind of more complex. We saw them building this site when I was in my position in the White House. Obviously raised a lot of questions about it. Very clear what it's for. It's for just this, enriching uranium and getting the threshold of weaponization.

If they were able to move cascades of centrifuges into that site, and if those centrifuges are spinning, that's deeply concerning and would be a new element that we didn't fully know about, because one assumption has been, Wolf, since the operation last June that the nuclear program more or less has been set back significantly.

So, I'd want to learn more. But this site Pickaxe Mountain is very, very...

BLITZER: It's deep underground.

MCGURK: Extremely difficult.

BLITZER: So how do you deal -- how does the U.S. militarily deal with this potential threat, airstrikes alone or troops on the ground?

MCGURK: I don't want to get into too many of the details. I know a lot about this. It's a difficult target to strike.

BLITZER: The U.S. wants to destroy those enriched uranium sites.

MCGURK: We can do it. We can do it. Hard.

BLITZER: With just airstrikes?

MCGURK: With certain capabilities, we can do it. Obviously, a ground operation, high risk. That's -- this is in the heart of Iran. So, yes, in some outlier scenario, we might be able to contemplate that, but I would not really think that's on the table.

So I'd want to learn more about this. Pickaxe Mountain has always been a site of concern. I have been a little surprised that, in the targeting campaign, it has not -- doesn't seem to have been hit significantly. So I assume we will learn more here.

BLITZER: So, how does this fit into this escalating war, if you will, that seems to be ongoing right now? MCGURK: Well, I think given what's happening now -- and I think our

hearts have to be with the loved ones of these families and, of course, our wounded, who we hope to have a speedy recovery.

But I think everybody's looking at this war from how it started, and you can criticize and critique, as we have done here on your on your program. But if you step back in last month, there was a deal, of course, the president signed and the president of Iran signed.

And one of the assumptions of that deal was that ships would pass through the Strait of Hormuz. That was kind of the key element of it, and it wasn't drafted, I think, as artfully as it could have been. But then Iran targeted two ships, Wolf transiting the strait earlier this month.

That kind of kicked this off. And now we're in a significant tit for tat. I think what CENTCOM is trying to do is isolate those port areas to deny Iran the capability. But Iran is proving it's capable of doing, and they're specifically targeting the living quarters of our forces.

And they have done this before.

BLITZER: In several Arab Gulf nations.

MCGURK: Yes. And they have done this before, even before this crisis.

I dealt with this when I was in the Biden White House. They targeted living quarters in Erbil, in Jordan. But what's concerning about the Iranian capability are the accuracy of these missiles, Wolf. I mean, Iran has developed really for the last decade -- it seems to be modeled on what China has.

If you study the Chinese military, you will hear about an anti-access aerial area denial posture through their missiles and drones, denying access through accuracy of systems and denying basing and things we could do.

That's what Iran has now developed with these highly accurate missiles in numbers that I think are beyond what we initially contemplated. And that's...

BLITZER: They hit that Jordanian base and killed American troops who were just living there.

MCGURK: Specifically targeting the living trailers.

BLITZER: Yes.

MCGURK: And so this is a real -- it's a real issue that I think, if I was in the White House now, I would say, look, we had a deal. The president signed it with the president of France there.

[10:40:02]

BLITZER: Memorandum of understanding. MCGURK: Memorandum of understanding.

Again, you can criticize that deal. There was a divergence of what one article meant, article five. Iran then targeted two civilian ships, killed an Indian crew member. And this is a time, I think, in addition to what we might be doing militarily, really to do some diplomacy with our allies, because this is now an issue that we really need some friends and allies with us.

But this issue of Iran's missile and drone program, they built it up over the last decade, highly significant, highly advanced.

BLITZER: Are the Chinese and the Russians actually helping them?

MCGURK: Yes.

And this is -- this gets to, if you really step back globally, the kind of convergence of interests between China, Russia, and Iran. And Iran has proliferated this technology. I mean, Russia is prosecuting its war in Ukraine partially because of these Shahed drones, which Iran exported to Russia.

Russia has a factory now producing that, hundreds of thousands of these drones.

BLITZER: And they're cheap too.

MCGURK: Iran proliferated this technology to the Houthis. Ten years ago, the Houthis could not shut down the Red Sea, as they're now threatening to do through cruise missiles, accurate anti-ship ballistic missiles. They target our ships with those.

And so, yes, this is China, Russia, and Iran. I think it is a real concern for the world. And that's why this should not just be a U.S. Iran tit for tat. I think that plays to Iran's asymmetrical advantage. But I will just say we are in a real predicament.

I have been dealing with these issues for like almost 20 years, as you know. And when I look forward about what our options might be, there are no good options here.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: You worked on the National Security Council for four U.S. presidents.

MCGURK: Yes.

BLITZER: And what the Houthis, the Iranian proxies in Yemen are doing, basically blocking all shipping to and from Saudi Arabia.

MCGURK: The Houthis, Wolf, in 2023, 2024, they started targeting U.S. military ships with anti-ship ballistic missiles and then commercial ships, first time that had ever been done historically.

BLITZER: Yes. MCGURK: We built an international coalition. We had Denmark. We had

the U.K. We had others. We had an air campaign. It's very difficult to stop because these systems, again, Iranian systems, can be fired 1,000 kilometers or so in the dark of night, and they're highly accurate. They can be fired from anywhere.

That's a really -- it's a really, really difficult challenge.

BLITZER: Yes, their military capability has not been destroyed.

MCGURK: No.

BLITZER: All right, thanks very much, Brett McGurk. Appreciate it very, very much.

And coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM, the former Vice President Mike Pence standing by to join me live. His thoughts on the future of the Republican Party and the ongoing war with Iran, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:46:55]

BLITZER: We're following the breaking news.

Three sources now tell CNN Israel is drawing up operational plans for a further escalation of the conflict between the U.S. and Iran, but has no imminent plans to join. Israel has not been a direct participant in this renewed round of fighting, and Washington has not yet asked Israel to enter the campaign.

An Israeli source says, however, that, if President Trump decides to call on the country -- quote -- "We will be ready" -- end quote.

Joining us now here in THE SITUATION ROOM is the former Vice President of the United States Mike Pence. He's also the author of a brand-new book entitled "What Conservatives Believe: Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience."

Mr. Vice President, thanks very much for writing this book. It's got a lot of good information. I'm glad you wrote it. It's worth reading, for sure.

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you, Wolf. Good to be with you.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the book a little bit later.

PENCE: Sure.

BLITZER: Let's talk about this war that's ongoing right now.

What's your assessment? Is this going to escalate into a much bigger conflict right now?

PENCE: Well, first, let me just say we have got Navy and Marine Corps in our immediate family, and so our hearts go out to the families of the three American service members lost over this last weekend in Jordan.

I understand how proud they are, but I can't -- can't imagine their sense of loss. But, that said, as I have said many times, I believe President Trump was right to take the fight to Iran after 47 years, where the leading state sponsor of terrorism has waged war against America and Iran, directly to the mullahs in Tehran last year, again this year.

Our military forces responded with extraordinary professionalism for that first month. And now I think it's becoming more apparent that the Iranians...

BLITZER: He thought the war would be over within three or four weeks.

PENCE: Well...

BLITZER: And now it's been going on for months and months and months.

PENCE: Well, look, our troops went in and struck 13,000 sites in four weeks.

But then the decision was made to cease hostilities, to seek a peaceful solution. I support the president's desire to bring -- to bring a cessation of hostilities, but I think what the Iranians have demonstrated in the 30 days following the memorandum of understanding is that it was a memorandum of misunderstanding.

They have no interest in a peaceful solution, reopening the strait, abandoning their nuclear ambitions, stopping to support terrorism. And my hope is that, as the president has reengaged our military, taking the fight to Iran directly again, as we see Israel is preparing to join us if we ask them to, that we will continue to hit these folks.

I will tell you that there's an old adage in military tactics that says one does not make peace with one's enemy. One makes peace with one's defeated enemy. And my sense is that whoever is controlling those ballistic missiles and drones in Iran, they haven't figured out that they have been defeated yet.

[10:50:01]

BLITZER: The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

PENCE: Well, it's -- yes, it's the IRGC.

And I know it's a snake with many heads, but I think we have got to unleash the armed forces of the United States. And, particularly, I'm very troubled about reports that centrifuges might have been transferred to Pickaxe Mountain. We did not strike there in the early going.

The strikes against nuclear facilities a year ago in Operation Midnight Hammer were enormously effective.

BLITZER: So their nuclear capability, potential to build a nuclear bomb has not been destroyed?

PENCE: Well, it could potentially still exist, and that's totally unacceptable. President Trump has made that clear.

We simply said from our administration forward that Iran will not be allowed to possess a usable nuclear weapon. That also represents the danger of ballistic missiles. I know there was a little talk about some thought that you could allow Iran to have some ballistic missiles.

Well, you -- they can't have a nuclear program, and, as we saw with heartbreaking results this weekend, they can't have a ballistic missile program. Ending those programs, ending their support for terrorism, opening the strait, I think it's -- our armed forces have more work to do to get there, Wolf.

BLITZER: As you know, President Trump campaigned throughout 2024 on the idea of ending wars abroad, especially in the Middle East.

As someone who explores the future of your Republican Party in your new book, "What Conservatives Believe: Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience," what do you think about that potential for this war going on and on and on and escalating into a full-scale, all-out war?

PENCE: Well, it -- as I mentioned in the book, there's been a conservative principle for years that, when you go to war, you go to war to win.

And one of the enduring lessons -- and I lived through those years. That's when we first met, the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq. It seemed that there was always a willingness to fight but fight to a point. I think we're in a moment right now where we have got to allow the armed forces of the United States to finish a war that didn't -- didn't start four months ago.

This war started 47 years ago. The president's going to have the leadership of Lebanon in the Oval Office in just a few minutes. My brother was a Marine stationed in Beirut in 1983. He shipped out just a few days before the Marine Corps barracks that claimed the lives of more than 200 American service members.

That's when this war started, when Hezbollah with Iran's sponsorship took the fight directly to America, struck our troops, killing hundreds in the Marine Corps barracks bombing. What I see President Trump doing here and the opportunity for us to do here, working with Israel, is end this 47-year war once and for all.

But I think we have got to be willing to put mass on point and allow the greatest military in the history of the world and our ally Israel to do what needs to be done.

BLITZER: To achieve that objective, would it be worth it for the U.S. to deploy ground troops?

PENCE: I -- there's an old saying too that never say what you will never do. I mean, the most important thing, I -- and I think hitting these nuclear sites in the...

BLITZER: Through the air, with airstrikes.

PENCE: At least in the beginning. You -- what you have got to do, we hit them. We basically put them back on their heels, took out their leadership. Then we took down 13,000 military sites out of about 25,000. Continue to hit those.

But at the end of the day, to eliminate the nuclear threat that Iran poses to the United States, to Israel, to the region, to the world, we have got to be willing to unleash our armed forces to take down those sites once and for all.

BLITZER: Why has the U.S.-Israeli relationship -- and you and I go way back when you were a senator from Indiana. Why has this U.S.- Israeli relationship deteriorated the way it has?

PENCE: Well, I'm not convinced it has, Wolf.

I know that there are there are loud voices, particularly in social media on the right, that like to talk down the U.S.-Israel relationship. There have been for more than a decade voices on the progressive left that have questioned U.S. support for Israel.

But I tell -- I don't live in Washington anymore. I'm visiting today. I live in Indiana. I have to tell you...

BLITZER: You were a governor there, and you were a congressman from Indiana.

PENCE: I was.

I travel around the country all the time speaking to groups in big cities and small towns. And I have to tell you, the American people cherish our relationship with Israel. The -- America was the first nation on earth to recognize the Jewish state of Israel in 1948, and I still think, for the overwhelming majority of Americans, there's a great and enduring appreciation for U.S. support for Israel and Israel's support for us.

[10:55:03]

BLITZER: On a sensitive issue, a foreign policy issue, I know you are calling on Congress to pass, what the late Senator Lindsey Graham tried to do, bipartisan Russia sanctions bill and to be -- and to rename it in his honor, Lindsey Graham's honor.

PENCE: Right.

BLITZER: Why is that so critical for you right now? And how confident are you that lawmakers can get this done?

PENCE: Oh, it's been more than four years since Russia's brutal and unprovoked invasion...

BLITZER: Of Ukraine. PENCE: ... of Ukraine.

And I have strongly supported in successive administrations now U.S. support, Western support for Ukraine until they defeat and repel that Russian invasion.

But what the late Lindsey Graham -- and I still mourn his passing and have been praying for his family. What the late Lindsey Graham did better than anybody else in public life was stand firmly for freedom on that frontline battle between Ukraine and Russia.

And Lindsey understood that Vladimir Putin's not going to stop until he's stopped. And the tough secondary sanctions that he wrote into a bill now years ago, but literally days before he perished, he was able to announce that he had secured an agreement by the Trump administration to support the bill.

I think the time has come, particularly with the expanding war against Iran. Now we ought to see the Senate pass in overwhelming numbers those tough new sanctions, put Lindsey's name on it, but, more than anything else, put the Russians back on their heels. That, I believe, is the pathway to peace.

BLITZER: With this war with Iran expanding right now, do you think that's going to hurt the Republicans in the upcoming midterm elections?

PENCE: Well, look, again, I -- my dad was a combat veteran in the Korean War.

I didn't serve in uniform, but I'm proud that my son is in the Marine Corps and son-in-law is in the Navy. I think those kind of considerations should never be taken into account. I think the focus right now for the administration, for policymakers on Capitol Hill should be, how do we achieve a victory for freedom against Iran and also give the Ukrainians what they need to achieve...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: I ask the question because this war is not very popular.

PENCE: Well, I -- but I have to tell you, I think the overwhelming majority of the American people know the world will be more secure, the region will be more secure and peaceful, and the world will be more prosperous if we end the five decades of threat that Iran has posed to world peace through its malign influence, terrorism.

And so, at the end of the day, I think -- I think -- my hope, my prayer is that the president, the administration, and leaders in Congress will simply put their head down, turn a deaf ear to any other consideration, give our troops what they need to finish the job.

BLITZER: The former Vice President Mike Pence.

And, once again, let me show our viewers the cover of your important new book, "What Conservatives Believe: Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience." Worth a good read.

PENCE: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks. Come back.

PENCE: Good to be with you.

BLITZER: And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)