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The Situation Room

Dr. Fauci Repeatedly Invokes the Fifth at Senate Hearing on COVID Pandemic Response. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired July 29, 2026 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): Did you ever receive work-related communications on that Gmail account from David Morens?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Did you preserve any work-related communications on that Gmail account from David Morens?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Did David Morens ever provide you with documents outside of those two ways that would violate NIH policy for FOIA compliance?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Now let's look at two other communications. You e-mailed David Morens on January 26th, 2020, quote, "it is important that I speak with you tonight. Please call me at home." This is a part of Exhibit Two that you have in front of you. This e-mail is sent the same day, the exact same day you write in an internal document, quote, "now we know the market was not the source, it was the amplifier," unquote.

Would you call the origins of COVID-19 a substantive issue?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Did you discuss COVID-19 origins with David Morens on this pho -- on this phone call?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Now, let's take a closer look at the last time you testified before Congress. This is part of -- what you have in front of you is Exhibit Four, which is part of the record. In June 2024, you testified that Dr. Morens, quote, "was not an advisor to me on institute policy or other substantive issues. Furthermore, his office is located in a different building from that of the NIAID director," unquote.

Is that still your testimony today?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: So today, under oath, your testimony remains that Dr. Morens was not an advisor to you on institute policy or substantive matters?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Now I've got Exhibit Five, which you have in front of you. On October 24th, 2021, David Morens texted you to provide information about and advocate for the controversial EcoHealth Alliance grant. You thank him and tell him that you will check the information.

Would you agree that this shows an advisory relationship between David Morens and yourself?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Do you agree that you two were discussing a substantive issue?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: If documentary evidence establishes that Dr. Morens advised you regarding EcoHealth Alliance, COVID origins, or grant policy, then your June 2024 testimony would have been inaccurate, correct?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Is there any document in your possession today that would contradict your prior congressional testimony?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based on my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Have you deleted, destroyed or instructed anyone to destroy records after learning Congress is investigating these matters?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Are you aware of anybody who did?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: As you know, Dr. Morens now faces charges related to destroying records while you distanced yourself from him. Is that fair to a decades-long friend?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: When is the last time you spoke to him?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: In hindsight, are you disappointed in how you handled COVID? Do you have any regrets?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: Dr. Fauci, I want to close with this: Here's how you impacted my family and people close to me. I have daughters with -- with children. You can't imagine the questions they had around vaccines for their kids and themselves, and the pressure, the unbelievable pressure to make the right decision for their health. I can tell you, pregnant women who worked with me were so scared because every time they went to the doctor they were told something different about taking the vaccine, and you caused this.

[10:05:00]

Imagine being a mom trying to protect their kids, or an expectant mother trying to figure out what to do. Every three weeks, a doctor tells you a new set of guidance on the vaccine. The haphazard information you released and pushed on the American people with little research is appalling, and why there is so little -- there's -- there's so much distrust in our institutions today. That trust is crucial to public health, and you, more than any person or event in my lifetime, have destroyed that trust for millions of Americans. You lied to hundreds of millions of people amount -- amid the worst public health crisis in a century. You failed to follow your own guidance. You forced people to watch their loved ones die alone over the phone. It's disgusting. You destroyed the federal government's credibility when it comes to public health. We have entire generations of Americans who, rightfully so, do not trust our institution to keep people safe because of you. This has destroyed decades of progress and lifetimes of work because you wanted to fuel your own ego and be the center of attention.

What would you do differently, knowing what you know today, Dr. Fauci?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

SCOTT: All the evidence is right here, and you still can't bring yourself to tell the truth or apologize because you received an autopen pardon from a staffer in the Biden White House. If we have another pandemic tomorrow, millions could die because of what you did, what you did to make Americans lose trust in their government when it comes to medicine and healthcare. How many families have you apologized to had to watch their one -- loved ones die alone? You breached pub- -- public trust, and now, you're hiding behind a fraudulent pardon. Your legacy will not be as a man who has saved America from COVID, but as a man who destroyed the public trust in America's public health institutions in exchange for five minutes of fame. This is how history will remember you.

I yield back.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): Senator Kim?

SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): Thank you, Dr. Fauci, for coming on out in front of this committee. I know it's not what you would want. It's not what you deserve.

I just want to say and start by just saying thank you to you for your service to this nation. I didn't know much about you prior to the pandemic. I came to learn about you from howev- -- many Americans did, but I also had the opportunity to talk to you and engage with you as someone who is a member of the Select Committee on the Coronavirus Crisis over in the House of Representatives. When I learned about your background, 38 years as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease appointed by President Reagan, served under seven presidents, four Republicans and three Democrats, I admire that greatly.

I myself had a chance to serve in the executive branch, serve in government under both a Republican president, a Democratic president, and I believe that we need more of that, more of that type of work, a place where we can understand our jobs not as coming from a place of partisanship and politics, but that of just public service. And right now, I feel the hyper-partisanship growing in this country in dangerous ways. I feel it much more present here on the Hill than I did back when I served as a nonpartisan career public servant at the State Department, and I worry about it. I worry about what kind of trajectory we're on as a country, and what this causes when it comes next for public service and those willing to step up for our nation.

And it's not just in the -- the attacks, but we see it brought out with the cuts to funding, to the firing of federal workers, to the demonization of their motivations, people calling our public servants criminals, thinking that they are there solely to undermine others that are trying to engage.

And I look at it right now. You know, it's not just that the people are being attacked, our public servants being attacked, but that it's undermining the very nature of the work of governance. You know, these cuch- -- cuts to HHS funding, to NIH funding, to the grants, cuts to the researchers doing the critical work to find cures and medicines. These firing and these cuts, they're creating a chilling effect, honestly, a chilling effect for the next generation of people who might consider stepping up to serve our nation, to be the next generation of researchers, who now are wondering whether or not this is the right thing for them to do at a time when they see some of their colleagues and those that they looked up to being attacked, their funding being cut, researchers that I talk to who are now either leaving the country or considering leaving the country to do their work because of the sheer unpredictability of America; that this nation so great, so powerful, has now been crippled with this sense of unpredictability and unreliability.

[10:10:08] That is not the type of country that I hope we strive to be.

I raise this because these attacks upon Dr. Fauci -- it's not just about him; it's sending signals to others, others who are thinking about serving our country -- our scientists, our doctors, our healthcare professionals, our researchers trying to show to them that if you don't get in line with the politics, that you will also potentially be subject to attacks.

And from the work that he has done, from HIV-AIDS, to Ebola, to COVID, you know, we've seen him try to engage in these crises. They're not easy, especially when it's a novel disease, when you don't know what comes next, a lot of unknowns, having to make decisions without the full breadth of knowledge we always wish we had in hindsight. But there is nothing perfect -- no perfect clarity when it comes to pandemics, when it comes to crises.

KIM: I worked in national security, in wars and crises. I made judgment calls, gave my best advice to generals, to ambassadors, even to a president.

Did I get it all right? No. Did I do my best? I did everything I thought I could with the information that I had.

The public servants, they do this work because they love this country and that they strive to improve it. It's not an easy job, but it is because there is so much at stake in our country. But these public servants do it because they are in the arena.

I just want to end by just reading a portion of this, because I think it's important as we're thinking about how to be able to treat public servants through this country to think through this.

And in the words of Teddy Roosevelt, saying, "It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strive valiantly, who errors become short again and again, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who, at the best, knows in the end the triumphs of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

Thank you for your service, Dr. Fauci. I yield back.

PAUL: Senator Hawley.

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Well, nothing says honesty like taking the Fifth, huh, Doc? Let's try something.

What day of the week is it today?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution.

HAWLEY: What color tie are you wearing?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: What color is the carpet in front of you?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: Let's just get one thing straight. You don't have any rights under the Fifth Amendment, because you've been pardoned, as you very well know, as the Supreme Court has been clear for a century and more.

Brown v. Walker, 1896, when he has been pardoned, he may not stand upon his privilege.

You know that. Your lawyer is sitting behind you, now shifting nervously in their chairs, they know it. This isn't about the Constitution. This isn't about the law. This is about contempt, contempt for this body and contempt for the American people.

But I think I know why you're doing it. It's because you don't want to answer questions. It's because you did all kinds of terrible things. It's because, during the pandemic, you got rich, didn't you?

You got rich, while people were dying, hundreds of thousands of Americans, over a million in the end, and you were getting rich. And not only were you doing that, you were using federal employees with taxpayer money to apply for and solicit cash prizes for you, personally. Cash prizes, totaling over a million dollars, you did all of that during the pandemic, didn't you? That's a question.

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

[10:15:00]

HAWLEY: You remember Greg Folkers? Who was that?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: Your chief of staff is the answer. Do you remember Patricia Conrad? Who was that?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: She was your personal assistant. And what were these individuals doing in the depth of the pandemic? In November of 2020, when millions of Americans were suffering from COVID, what were they doing?

I tell you what they're doing. Folkers was on your behalf soliciting and gathering information for a cash award.

Let's look at it. We've got his e-mail right here, right over my shoulder.

Folkers says, "I'm working on this nomination for the Dan David award for Fauci. We need to beef up the COVID part. Do you have language in the can that you could share that delineates how we responded in new ways to COVID?"

He sends this to multiple federal employees. What was the Dan David award? Do you remember, Doc?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: It was a $900,000 cash award. $900,000 cash award. And he got it because he used federal employees to get it.

And this wasn't the only award, was it, Dr. Fauci? In fact, you applied for and received at least eight other federal cash prizes on federal time using federal employees and federal resources.

Here they are over my shoulder. Besides the Dan David award, you've got the Partnership for Public Service. You've got the Abelson Prize. You've got the Smithsonian Award. You've got the National Academy of Medicines Award. You've got the CDC Foundation.

In fact, you turned your staff into a fulltime application machine. You actually wrote to people and said, "Do you think maybe I'd qualify?" And you got cash for all of this.

And it wasn't just one or two employees, was it? In fact, you used eight separate federal employees on federal time using federal resources to solicit cash awards. Isn't that true?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: Here they are right over my shoulder. Here's all of them. The people that you use, federal employees, so that you could go and get cash money.

And the most hilarious part is that you weren't content to even dragoon them into applying for all of these cash awards. You then had them go out to the ethics agencies and ethics watchdogs and demand that you be able to get the money.

That's right. We've got it in your e-mails.

Your staff and employees on federal time using federal resources being paid with federal dollars are soliciting cash for you. And then, they're turning around and saying to the agency, we don't want just an answer, we want to get to yes, because Fauci wants the money. He wants it. We want to get to yes, and yes takes time.

This is your chief of staff again, using federal e-mail to pressure the agency's own ethics people so that you could get money, so that you could get rich. And it violated the law, didn't it, Dr. Fauci? Didn't it? It violated the law, didn't it?

(UNKNOWN): Is that a question?

HAWLEY: It is a question. You can answer. Go ahead.

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: Federal law, as you very well know, prohibits the solicitation of cash awards or other personal benefits for federal employees. And it certainly prohibits using your own employees to do this.

5 CFR Section 2635.205(b), it says it right there in black and white. You cannot use federal resources, federal dollars, federal employees, federal offices, federal e-mail, federal time to solicit cash awards. And you did all of it.

And the worst part is thousands of people were dying while you were doing it. You were supposed to be the nation's doctor, and you were playing one on TV. But this is what you were doing with your time. Isn't that true?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: Yes. Yes, I can see why. I can certainly see why.

You know what? I can't quite figure it out is that why you were so obsessed with it, because you're already rich. I mean, your scheme worked here.

I mean, your net worth now is a north of $12 million. You got over a million dollars in cash awards during COVID, during a 12-month, 24- month span during COVID. A million bucks you knocked down in cash money using federal resources.

Now, you're worth more than $12 million. You've got a pension that, in its first year, paid out north of $400,000 a year.

[10:20:00]

A million people dead, you're getting rich. A million people dead, you're using federal employees to get cash awards for you. A million people dead, and you're here taking the Fifth. Because you don't want to admit that what really happened in all that time was a multi-month, multi-year course of self-dealing.

Isn't that true, Dr. Fauci?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: Yes, well, silence is admission. And here's the real thing. At the end of the day, it wasn't just about the money, really, was it? It was really about a power trip. I mean, through all of this, you want to be the most famous scientist in the world. You were so focused on getting every award and every drop of cash that you could, all because you wanted to be on TV.

You wanted to be the sun god of science. You wanted to be the guy who was in charge of it all. You wanted to lambaste Trump. You wanted to make sure that nobody else stole your spotlight. You wanted to be the guy. You had time to sit for InStyle magazine.

Here's what you were doing with your time. You could sit for InStyle magazine, but you can't answer questions for the American people. You could sit for InStyle magazine, but you're here taking the Fifth. You could sit for InStyle magazine and get a million bucks in cash awards.

But now, the cat's got your tongue. I bet he does.

I tell you what. Here's my conclusion from all of this.

This was really all about you the whole time. Somewhere along the way, you lost your way. You may have been a good public servant at one time. I don't know. But I can tell you from reading your e-mails now, from looking at what you did, how you used your employees, somewhere along the line, it became all about you.

You became a narcissist and a megalomaniac, and a liar. And you've lied to the American people, and you've lied to this body. And you've disgraced your profession by doing it. And you called yourself the most famous scientist in the world, you've done more to harm science than anybody in my lifetime. And I hope you'll go home and write that in your diary.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

PAUL: Senator Fetterman.

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Fauci, I'm not here to, perhaps, attack you or defend, or anything. It's really just more -- honestly, I just want to acknowledge.

I have had members of my family die from COVID. And now, I also grieve for people that I've met that have lost their business through the pandemic, and they'll never be the same.

As -- during the pandemic, I was the lieutenant governor, so we were in the middle of all of that maelstrom, trying to find the right balance between protect life and protect the economics, and for all of it. And I'm not sure if we got it all right or wrong. But, without a doubt, I can continue to question myself.

But one that I -- it's not about much more your regrets, but I have one, and that is, early on that there was the theory that the virus could have emerged from the lab. And early on, that became like a right wing kinds of theory. And I thought it seemed to make sense.

Now, there was a really advanced lab that was close by, and then you have this unknown virus out.

So -- but that became a very partisan thing. And now, it seems now it's more and more emerging theory that that would have come from the lab.

Now, I hope, I think that the next time our nation's facing something like this, we are not become, as I might have been, blinded by the partisan idea that maybe the truth might come from a side that's different than you are. But, I think we should really be willing to pursue truth, no matter where that may have emerged after all of that.

So -- and I would now cede the remaining back to the Chair. Thank you.

PAUL: Senator Moreno.

SEN. BERNIE MORENO (R-OH): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And I will echo Senator Johnson's comments about your opening statement, Mr. Chairman. I think it was -- it was dead on. It's very, very well done.

Mr. Fauci, do you know who David Schertler is?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

MORENO: Fifth Amendment of the Constitution. What does the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution say?

(UNKNOWN): (OFF-MIKE)

[10:25:00]

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution

MORENO: No, I'm just asking you what it says.

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution.

MORENO: I'm going to give the Constitution to my aide. He'll bring it over to you, so you can have it for future reference. I think it's something that every American should know what the Constitution says.

Do you know who wrote the Fifth Amendment?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution.

MORENO: So you're invoking a right that you don't know who wrote it or what it says, is that correct?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution.

MORENO: Wow. Well, let me tell you who David Schertler is for the audience because he was ejected by the Chairman.

He's a high-profile criminal attorney. He's represented some, really great people, like Senator Bob Menendez, maybe that's somebody who my Democrat colleagues might remember, took gold bars as bribes from the Egyptians. And there's an article here in the Washington Free Beacon that talks about why you would hire a guy like David Schertler, and the comment is, if you're in deep shit, that's who you call.

Do you feel like you're in deep shit?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

MORENO: Clearly, what you think today is that somehow you're above reproach. Somehow you feel like you don't need to be treated like a normal American.

Can you do me a favor in the audience and stand up if, during the time of the COVID pandemic, you were called a racist for calling the virus a Wuhan virus or the China virus?

If you thought the six-foot rule was total crap, if you thought the vaccine wasn't something that you should take, if you thought it was outrageous the way the mass policy was rolled out, if you were fired from your job for not taking that vaccine, including members of the military, if you thought closing schools was catastrophically stupid, and that you thought that, during these times, saying these things made you somehow a lesser human being.

Dr. Fauci, can you just turn around and look at the people behind you? You're not willing to do that? That's not a question. It's not a question. To your lawyers, not a question. It's a request. All you have to do is look up from your lawyers and look at the people who were absolutely shamed for saying what we know now to be the truth. You can't even look at them? That's a -- That's a question. Are you able to look at them? You can sit down. The audience.

(UNKNOWN): (inaudible)

MORENO: There was a mom in Ohio during the depth of the coronavirus pandemic, decided to go to her high school football game for her son. They hadn't been out much. The kids had been learning at school, and then the school got shut down. They hadn't really gotten much out of that education. As any parent knew that remote learning was no learning at all. But it was a Friday night. Her son wanted to go watch a buddy go play football.

So they went to the stadium. They sat alone, far from everybody else. Just a mom, a dad, a few kids. They didn't feel they needed to wear masks because it was stupid, because they were outside. They all lived together. They're not near anybody. Dr. Fauci, do you know what happened to that mom and that family? That's a question.

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

MORENO: They were dragged out of that stadium and arrested. Those policies were put in place because you had moronic politicians that listened to the words of a megalomaniac who was more interested in having met a Kardashian than the suffering of the American people. And that is you. Your advice to communities like that, to idiotic politicians who enforce those rules.

[10:30:00]