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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump: Harris Will Lose "Palestinian Vote" If She Picks Shapiro; Defense Secretary Revokes Plea Deal For Alleged 9/11 Plotters; Judge Chutkan Regains Control Over Trump Election Case. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 02, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, many of the people we've talked to here, are intrigued about the possibility, of Kamala Harris picking the Democratic Kentucky governor, Andy Beshear, to be her running mate.
Now, people close to the process say he is not in the top tier of candidates, but he is still being considered. But the potential of that happening, of two men with Kentucky ties, running against each other, to be Vice President of the United States, is certainly the topic of conversation, here in Jackson.
John?
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Gary Tuchman, thanks.
And thank you for your time. Hope you enjoy the weekend.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
We've learned that Kamala Harris herself is now interviewing the finalists, to be her running mate. An announcement could come at any time, with the latest reporting on who is at the top of her list.
Meanwhile, a stunning turn in that plea deal for the alleged 9/11 mastermind, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin, suddenly, tonight, revoking the deal. We're live with the breaking news that is sending shockwaves, across Washington.
And Donald Trump's legal trouble, back in the hands of that federal judge, who once warned him that he was neither a king nor the president any longer.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight that deadline is fast-approaching, for Vice President Kamala Harris, meaning that we could be hours away, from learning who will be her running mate.
Sources tell us tonight that Harris herself is conducting the final interviews with about half a dozen contenders. One of them will soon get that call, the one that she got four years ago this month. And we'll see Harris and her pick, together, this Tuesday, at their first joint rally in Philadelphia.
And when it comes to who is under consideration, here's what our sources are telling us, tonight, who's still on the list. Pennsylvania governor, Josh Shapiro. Arizona senator, Mark Kelly. The Minnesota governor, Tim Walz. Illinois governor, J.B. Pritzker. Kentucky governor, Andy Beshear. And Transportation Secretary, Pete Buttigieg. Safe to say she has the map covered.
But of those we are told that Shapiro, Kelly and Walz are said to be the leading contenders. But I say, with a caveat, because of course these interviews that are happening could be key to the final decision that Harris makes here.
And with her biggest staffing decisions still to come, and which running mate she is going to ultimately decide on here, she has added some other big names to the campaign, tonight. And they are all political veterans from the Obama era. That includes his former campaign manager, David Plouffe, his deputy campaign manager, Stephanie Cutter, and a few others.
And all of this is happening with 94 days to go to the election. Or as one senior Harris campaign official put it to us tonight, it's all hands on deck.
My political sources tonight are:
CNN's Senior Data Reporter, Harry Enten.
The former New York City mayor, Bill de Blasio.
CNN Senior Political Commentator, and former senior adviser to Mitch McConnell, Scott Jennings.
And also, CNN Political Commentator, and the former National Coalitions Director for the Biden-Harris campaign, Ashley Allison.
It's great to have you all here.
And Mayor, let me start with you. Because obviously, this is a historic decision that she's, you know, with her clinching the delegates today, and making this historic place, the top of the ticket, that historic decision is also influencing, who she is going to put on the ticket with her, who she wants to balance out, what this ticket that they're going to present to voters is going to look like.
BILL DE BLASIO, (D) FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: It is, Kaitlan.
But look, big question, of course, is what does a vice president mean, politically, in this day and age? And I think it's fair to say we shouldn't overrate it. But what does matter in reality of a very, very tight campaign, is what does that vice president bring to the political equation? I'm not so sure that anyone guarantees a state. I think once upon a time, perhaps that was true, when there were big political machines and all. But not now. Would you rather have a Shapiro to help you get Pennsylvania? Sure. Or Kelly for Arizona? But does it guarantee it? Absolutely not.
I think the big question is, how do they play out there, as campaigners, as another voice, in so many key swing states and swing markets, media markets, where people need that reinforcement, and that reminder of the message, who is the most emphatic, and passionate, and effective messenger. Good choices. I'm not sure one totally stands out from the others. But I actually think that has to be the number one qualification here.
COLLINS: Harry, what do the numbers look like, in the cold, hard political calculations? I mean, if she picks Shapiro of Pennsylvania, he's very, very popular there. If that could even help a little bit in Pennsylvania, it could be really worth it on Election Day, potentially.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes, I mean, I think the Mayor is right, you know? You can't guarantee a state for anybody, right?
We look at the political science literature. A VP in their home state may add, say, half a point to maybe two points on the upper end, to their running mates, the top of the tickets margin. But you know how much Pennsylvania was decided by last time around? 1.2 points. We're talking about races that are so tight.
[21:05:00]
You look at Josh Shapiro's favorable rating in this state, or Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. It's 61 percent. You look at his margin, last time, winning that governor's race, it was a 15-point margin.
But I would make the argument that any of these guys that are being determined, right now, will be perfectly fine. The real question is, who does the current Vice President feel comfortable with? Who does she feel like can actually be a running mate for her?
And I will tell you, of all of these folks that are going on, none of them have as bad of numbers as J.D. Vance has, right now. So, she can't do any worse than Trump did. She can only do better.
My money is that Shapiro's the best.
Kelly's probably the second-best pick, given that he won last time around in 2022, by five points. Arizona, of course, was determined by 0.3 points, back in 2020.
But for my money, you want those 19 electoral votes from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. That's why I think the betting markets at this point, and the conventional wisdom, is Shapiro's the best bet.
But truthfully, it's up to Harris. And none of us know what's going on in her mind now. COLLINS: Ashley Allison, you worked for the Biden-Harris campaign. Obviously, this campaign is going to look different than that. What's your view, as we head into these final moments of this?
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: As I was just sitting here, I actually reflected to the day that I got the call that it was going to actually be the Vice President, that Kamala Harris was going to be tapped, before it became public. Jen O'Malley Dillon, who was the campaign manager, that day, called me, because of my role, but also because of what it represented as a Black woman in this country.
Here's the thing about the Vice President, as I've worked for her on the campaign. She is meticulous. And so, she is not taking this decision lightly. And she will think about this. And something we might not always say, in conversations in politics, I bet you she's prayerful about this, because this is a big, big decision.
I am not sure who she will pick. I think they all have pros and cons. But what I do know -- and I want to make this one point, a lot of folks have said the Vice President, not Kamala Harris, but her person that she selects won't matter.
I think we're in a new day of politics. Kamala Harris is now one of the most popular people in the world, because of memes. Memes didn't exist during Barack Obama's first election. Memes becoming a movement were not something substantial. And we can toss that aside. But those things are real. Those are how -- that's really how people interact.
The polls numbers have been wrong so many times. So, I think at the end of the day, the one thing that is consistent, in politics, is people, and how people feel. And so, at the end of the day, I think the Vice President will pick someone to be her nominated VP that she feels comfortable with, but also that the American people can resonate with.
COLLINS: Yes.
ALLISON: And that I think, will be the grounding point, in all of this.
COLLINS: They were still sort of trying to try to figure out how to say GIF or GIF, when Obama was in office.
It is a great point about this. Also, we've seen how much the vice president matters. And since of Harris herself with Mike Pence, obviously, in those moments.
Scott Jennings, we heard from Donald Trump, earlier, on the VP contenders, what this is looking like.
I want everyone to listen to his view of this race that's happening, inside the Democratic Party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If she picks Shapiro, she's going to lose the Palestinian vote. And that's fine. Everybody has their liabilities.
I think if she picks Shapiro, who happens to be Jewish, she loses her little Palestinian base, because she has -- because they like me, because they think I'm going to bring peace to the Middle East, even though I'm very strong for Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Scott, I think, obviously, this is a consideration that, as Isaac Dovere was reporting earlier, is something Democrats are taking into consideration, when it comes to Shapiro's faith. But I think, for Trump, to look at this, there is a question of, whether or not his analysis is correct there.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, everybody tiptoes around it and tries to explain it gingerly.
But let's just be blunt about this. The American left is awash in anti-Semitism. And there's a whole bunch of Democrats that do not want her to pick Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, because of that feeling. I mean, let's just be honest about it.
And I think it would be, all geography and polling, and whatever aside, I actually think it would be a huge leadership moment for her, to tell those people, to pound sand, and say, look, I'm going to pick this person because it's best for me, it's best for the campaign, it's best for the Democratic Party, and you need to take your viewpoints and stick it somewhere else. It would be a big leadership moment for her to do that.
But I think Donald Trump is right. There are huge numbers of people on the American left, who are aggravated about this. And it would be offensive to them for her to pick Shapiro. So, I kind of hope she does it, just because it'll make all the people that -- all the right people mad. But we'll see what she does.
[21:10:00]
DE BLASIO: Yes, I don't buy that. I have to say. With deepest respect to Scott, he's done some important work. But no. The vast majority of American Democrats, first of all, believe in the State of Israel, and its historic mission.
What else you think you see is a lot of people, not just people you might call progressives, folks who are moderates, folks who are not even Democrats, who are really concerned by what they see in Gaza, and they want that war to end, and they don't want to see suffering on either side.
I don't think it's about whether the vice presidential candidate is of a certain faith. I think it's about what are we going to do, with that situation, in the Middle East.
What I've seen from Kamala Harris, and I really appreciated is, she's reaffirmed her support for Israel. But she's also said, very overtly, we have to end the suffering of the Palestinian people. And I think she's drawn a clear line, about the fact that the United States is going to really say, to Israel, come on, we've got to do better than this. This is not the way for this war to go. Let's find a way to wrap this up, and get the hostages home.
Obviously, Hamas has to be a part of that, too.
But I think she's sending a message to folks who have genuine concern--
JENNINGS: Why? Hold on.
DE BLASIO: Genuine concern.
JENNINGS: You said -- you said Hamas has to be -- you say Hamas has to be a part of this? They are the terrorists, who did the kidnapping, the murdering--
DE BLASIO: Of course.
JENNINGS: --and the raping. And you're saying they had to be a part of it?
DE BLASIO: Scott? Scott? Scott?
JENNINGS: That's ridiculous.
DE BLASIO: Come on, brother. I think Hamas is disgusting. I think what they did was a horrible act of terrorism.
I'm saying a negotiation that frees the hostages, obviously involves them as well. But my point, more fundamentally, is I don't buy -- respect, Scott. But I don't buy the notion--
JENNINGS: All right.
DE BLASIO: --that if you choose the Jewish VP, that that's going to have this massive alienating effect. I don't buy that. The vast majority of people, who are ready to vote for Kamala Harris, believe in Israel, of course would like to see peace.
COLLINS: Yes.
DE BLASIO: And I think she's striking the right tone.
ENTEN: Could I just ask a question here? Where is Josh Shapiro's stance any bit different from those other Democratic VP potential nominees?
COLLINS: It's not.
DE BLASIO: Correct.
ENTEN: It's not any different.
DE BLASIO: Correct. ENTEN: It's not any different. And you know why?
COLLINS: But difference is that he's Jewish.
ENTEN: Exactly. Exactly. And we're tiptoeing around this a little bit.
COLLINS: Can I--
ENTEN: This is as much about him being Jewish as it is, is about his Israeli stance. And as a Jewish-American myself, I'm personally sick of the gosh darn thing. Sick of it.
COLLINS: Ashley Allison, what's your -- what's your take?
ALLISON: Can I -- can I say one thing? I think--
COLLINS: Yes, go ahead.
ALLISON: Yes, I think we're painting like really broad strokes here. And I am someone, who considers myself a part of the progressive left. And I would support a Jewish vice president. I would support a Black woman to be the president. I've supported White men, most of my life, exception of Barack Obama.
I think that we are doing -- we often talk about people in a negative way about doing identity politics. I think this is a bit of a trap. Every candidate has their pros and cons.
And what I will not let people do, in this moment, is define the Vice President, who is the first Black woman, first Indian-American woman, to be the top of the ticket, that if she doesn't pick Josh Shapiro, that people begin a trope that she's anti-Semitic. Or that if she does pick Josh Shapiro, that she is anti-Palestinian. Neither of those things are true. We are more complex creatures than that.
DE BLASIO: Amen.
ALLISON: She is going to pick someone that she believes she can lead, with this country, in the right direction, together.
I think Americans are sick of this language that tries to divide us, and they are looking for people to be adults in the room. And that is what Kamala Harris will do, this weekend. She will meet with a lot of adults, in the room, and make her decision as a grown woman.
DE BLASIO: Amen.
COLLINS: Scott?
JENNINGS: Well, a couple things. Number one, the idea that we have to negotiate with the people, who do the kidnapping, and the raping, and the murdering, and that's somehow going to be good for Israel, or Jewish-Americans, or anybody else, to me is, ridiculous.
Number two. Look, I don't believe Kamala Harris and the choice she makes will say anything about her personally. However, I do think that if she doesn't choose Shapiro, if she goes away from Pennsylvania, which they cannot win without, legitimate questions about how much she's willing to give in to the progressive left, will be raised. And I think Trump's going to raise them. The Republicans are going to raise them.
He is -- it is not even close that he is politically the best choice. And so, to go away from him, and to go away from that state, to me, would say something about the fundamental split, in the Democratic Party, right now, over this war in the Middle East.
COLLINS: But --and we're going to--
ALLISON: Wait. Can I just say one thing?
COLLINS: Yes, go ahead.
ALLISON: Can I please? Please. Please. I think one thing that is different from Democrats than Republicans is Donald Trump's running mate called him the American version of Hitler. And it's very clear Donald Trump doesn't like his running mate, right now.
Kamala Harris has an opportunity to pick someone that she can actually be in real partnership, together. And I think that is an opportunity she should seize on.
DE BLASIO: Amen.
ALLISON: That's all.
COLLINS: OK. On that note, we have a really great Andy Beshear soundbite. But I'll play it when we come back, after a quick break.
Harry Enten, thank you for joining us. Great points there.
Everyone else is going to stick around.
Up next. It is a question of will he or won't he, because we are hearing from Donald Trump, some mixed messages, on debating Vice President Harris.
Plus, we have breaking news that we are covering for you, this hour. We're going to go live to the Pentagon, on a stunning reversal from the Defense Secretary, on a plea deal that was struck, for the mastermind, accused of plotting 9/11. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:19:35]
COLLINS: In states like North Carolina, absentee ballots are going to be being mailed out in just about 35 days. Yes. You know, you think that election is about 100 days away? No, 35 days is when that voting is going to start. Pennsylvania will be just a few days after that. So, it is time to buckle up. Because in that time period, we'll see Vice President Harris name her running mate. They'll -- Democrats will hold a week-long convention in Chicago. Donald Trump, who already had his convention is eager to get the attention back on himself. So, it's a question of what these next few weeks look like.
[21:20:00]
I'm joined, tonight, by former Trump campaign adviser, Jason Osborne, and the rest of our astute and fiery panel
Jason, though, I'll start with you.
Trump has had some trouble, breaking into the new cycle, which is a very unfamiliar feeling for him. But what does it say that really, the only time he did so this week was the comments that he made, at the National Association of Black Journalists, questioning Harris' race, which kind of became this whole thing, for his entire party, to deal with, this week.
JASON OSBORNE, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, I mean, if you look at back, I think, Roger Stone used to say that any news was good news or being any -- even if it was bad, you're still in the news cycle.
And I think this probably is very unusual for Trump. I mean, it's certainly not what he wanted. And then, I think he continued to stretch it out, and try and prove his point, by posting the Christmas card, the quote-unquote, Christmas card picture. So, I think it is a struggle.
But I think also there is this honeymoon period that Kamala Harris is going through. She's going to pick her vice presidential nominee, this week. And I think there's a number of people that are scrambling around, trying to find, what are the -- what's the deep background stuff that nobody -- nothing came out, or none of the information came out when she was running for president. And then whoever her VP pick is.
And there's going to be some skeletons in the closet there. Whether or not there's anything rising to the level of Vance et cetera.
COLLINS: Yes, I think they know. And from what we have -- we've been talking to people in her orbit. They know that this is a sweet spot, where they're getting a lot of attention, earned media. But obviously, for every politician, that changes, regardless of who you are.
OSBORNE: Yes.
COLLINS: On this idea, though, of seeing the two of them on the debate stage. We heard from Donald Trump today on this idea. He keeps going from saying, he's backing out of the debates, he's back in, and he will probably debate her.
This is what his latest comment is, on whether or not we will see them side-by-side. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I mean, right now, I say, why should I do a debate? I'm leading in the polls. And everybody knows her. Everybody knows me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was his tactic during the Republican primary.
DE BLASIO: And this is a different ballgame, because he is so used to being up against a candidate. When he has been the challenger, the candidate he's been up against, has been pretty unpopular. I'm sad that that was true for Joe Biden, for a long time. I'm sad that was true for Hillary Clinton. So, he doesn't really understand the territory he's in, right now. I truly believe this.
He's got not only a person, who turns out to be popular, but is surging in popularity, in Kamala Harris. And she's got a lot of that same great energy that we saw, in the best times, of the Obama 2008 campaign, when it became like a cultural happening, almost, people wanted to be a part of it. And we're seeing the energy from young people, and from voters of color, and from women.
So, for Trump, this is a whole new ballgame. And I think they don't have a game plan. And therefore, he is afraid to go into a debate, and actually lose ground.
OSBORNE: No.
DE BLASIO: But it looks like weakness to me.
OSBORNE: I don't think Trump is afraid of anything, honestly. And I mean, I think there are certainly those advisers that are sitting there, saying to him, yes, get her in a debate.
And you're forgetting, in 2020, the popularity of Joe Biden was much higher than the popularity of Donald Trump. And so yes, Hillary Clinton was less popular, and Joe Biden now is less popular. Kamala, up until about a month ago, was the least popular of any of them.
So I think, at the end of the day, he's going to get in a debate with her. And we're going to see, like what word salads come out of her mouth, in a debate, how she defends the fact that not only like two months ago, she was banning fracking, that she was asking for defund the police, two years ago. I mean, all these positions.
COLLINS: You know what's interesting about that is, everyone looks back to her debates, four years ago. But also remember her debate against Vice President Pence, at the time. It was seen -- both of them came out of that with arguments to make about how they did in that.
But Scott, on this notion of what Trump is saying about Harris herself. We saw a campaign email, tonight, saying, 24 hours until we unleash hell that tomorrow, when he's in Atlanta, holding a rally with J.D. Vance, they wrote, crooked Kamala's worst nightmares come true. You do hear though, from Trump allies, who say he hasn't quite landed on what he is saying about her. With Biden, obviously, he knew his lines. Had been saying that for four years. It does seem like he's still trying to do that tonight.
JENNINGS: Yes, I think the campaign knows what it wants to do. I mean, they're on the air, with millions of dollars of TV advertising, on the issue of immigration, and tying her to that, given her role in the Biden administration, and how big of an issue it's become.
There are a lot of clips of her, in her own words, from her own presidential campaign, that will come back to haunt her. I suspect you're going to find that way -- it'll find its way into the paid media as well.
But there's two siloes of this campaign. There's the paid media, and there's what Trump does publicly.
If I might just comment on this issue of her popularity. I heard Ashley say earlier, she's one of the quote, most popular people in the world. And Bill, I heard say, she's popular.
[21:25:00]
I mean, the Reuters/Ipsos poll today has her at a 39 percent approval rating. I don't know what your all's bar is for most popular person in the world. But 39 -- 39 percent is not it. And she's still carrying Joe Biden's policy baggage around, given how people feel about the direction of that country. So, I think -- I think we -- it's possible, we're overstating how popular Kamala Harris is right now.
And I agree with Jason. I don't think Donald Trump's going to be afraid to debate her. I'm dubious he'll do it on ABC. But I think he will debate her.
COLLINS: Ashley, the one thing we do keep hearing -- and we heard this from Senator Tom Cotton, when he was on the other night. He didn't want to answer questions about Trump's comments on race and questioning her race.
But one point that they have been saying repeatedly is, why hasn't she done an interview, since she became the top of the ticket? Obviously, hasn't been that long. Should she do a press conference?
Would that be helpful to have her come out, and answer for why her position is different than it was four years ago, when she was running in a Democratic primary, to be fair. And obviously, we've seen what her positions are. She's served alongside Joe Biden for four years.
But should she come out and do an interview, do a press conference, take questions, explain those changes?
ALLISON: She should, and she will.
Look, I think we're living in an unprecedented time. No one expected this to be the scenario that we are in. And if you had, I would assume that you probably wouldn't be spending your Friday night, on cable news, right now. Because you'll probably be winning the slots in Vegas, or at a poker table.
Look, a week ago, Joe Biden addressed the nation, from the Oval Office, and he said he was not running for reelection. So, we're nine, 10 days out from her boss, being able to have his exit from the race.
She now is building her campaign staff. And I would expect she needs to pick -- one of the -- make one of the most important decisions in her life, which is select her vice president.
And I would suspect that after she does that, or maybe even before she does that, she sits down for a long-form interview. But you know what? It might not be the way we want it to be. It might not be with traditional mainstream media.
Because, as I said, in the last segment, things are different. Joe Biden decided he was not going to run for reelection, via a tweet, or X, or whatever we call it. And Donald Trump announced his vice president, what, on like Truth Social or social media. We're in a different age, folks. So, we need to expect different things.
I think the American public will receive her however she is. But I do think she will be sitting down for an interview, and address the American public very soon.
COLLINS: All right. Unprecedented. That's safe to say.
Everyone, thank you so much for joining us. Great to talk to all of you.
DE BLASIO: Thank you.
COLLINS: We do have breaking news coming up, after this, because that plea deal for the alleged 9/11 mastermind and his two accomplices just revoked by the Defense Secretary himself.
It is a dramatic update. We'll get a live report, from the Pentagon, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:32:09]
COLLINS: We have some breaking news into CNN, as the Pentagon has announced, tonight, that Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin, has revoked a plea deal for the accused mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, and that for two alleged accomplices.
This agreement, which involved the three men pleading guilty to all charges, including the murder of nearly 3,000 people, would have taken the death penalty off the table.
Joining me, tonight, is CNN's Pentagon Correspondent, Oren Liebermann.
Oren, obviously, when this deal was announced by prosecutors, it sparked a lot of backlash, from the families, from lawmakers. Tell us what's behind this amazing abrupt decision, from Secretary Austin, tonight.
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Abrupt is a bit of an understatement.
We only found out about the plea agreement, two days ago. And it would have brought to an end, what was a very long and complicated process, to try to bring Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and two of his alleged co- conspirators to justice.
But it did involve them pleading guilty to the charges they faced, in exchange for a life sentence. As you pointed, it took the death penalty off the table.
And then, in an announcement that was quietly posted, on the Pentagon's website, about an hour ago, without any sort of a public announcement, just simply posted there, Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin, said he was not only relieving the authority of the overseer of these cases, but also withdrawing the plea agreements.
You saw the announcement right there. It was only three sentences, in which Austin wrote that it is his -- now his authority, and his authority alone, to enter into a plea agreement, like this, and that he was withdrawing the agreements reached.
The question, of course, what happens now? This had been delayed for so long. And it was seen as a sort of difficult compromise, to get to this point. The cases were marred by the fact that there had been torture in the past, of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed--
COLLINS: Yes.
LIEBERMANN: --at CIA black sites, and two of his co-conspirators. And that made it very difficult, to pursue these cases, after they had been delayed for so long. More than a decade of delays, over legal complications and political problems, just to get to this point. And now the case is perhaps in a bit of limbo once again.
COLLINS: Yes, well, Oren, given that. And I know Secretary Austin was traveling this week, and is now back. The White House said, yesterday, they were not aware of this plea deal, until it was struck.
Do we know if Secretary Austin was aware of this?
LIEBERMANN: The plea deal itself, at this point, that much is unclear. But what we've reported and what others have reported for more than two-and-a-half years, is that plea deal discussions were in the works.
So, this shouldn't have been a surprise to the Pentagon, or to anybody else that there was a process in, that was ongoing to try to get to a plea deal. Had Austin or the White House wanted to stop this process, and say, look, a plea deal is off the table. They could have done that, at any point over the course of the past two-and-a-half years.
And that's part of why this is such a surprise that Austin simply and quietly posts a memo in which he relieves the woman, who was in charge of the military court, at Guantanamo Bay, and revokes the plea agreements that had gotten to this point.
[21:35:00]
You have to believe that part of that was the ferocity of the bipartisan backlash.
COLLINS: Yes.
LIEBERMANN: And the ferocity of the backlash from the victims' families, when they were notified of this, and then when it was announced publicly.
COLLINS: Yes. Oren Liebermann, thank you for that report, live from the Pentagon, tonight.
Here to discuss, the Ranking Member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Democratic congressman, Gregory Meeks, also a New Yorker.
And so, what's your reaction to hearing that Secretary Austin has revoked this plea deal?
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): Well, for me, I just think that he apparently didn't know, by relieving the person that struck the deal, did not -- was not cleared by him. And I think that because of some of the reactions, et cetera, he decided to utilize his authority, and step in and revoke it.
It's something that I was surprised about. I'm with the State Department, with reference to the Foreign Affairs Committee, not with the Armed Services, where they have jurisdiction over DOD. But it was shocking to me also.
COLLINS: Well, and the House Armed Services Committee was going to launch an investigation into this plea deal. They were asking for documents.
Do you support this move, tonight, to revoke this deal?
MEEKS: Well, look, I think that Secretary Austin has to review to make that decision.
For me, one of the things that I'm just fundamentally opposed to, is the death penalty. I'm not a death penalty guy.
I think death is too easy for people that have committed the evil that they've committed. They should be suffering for the rest of their life. They should be able to stand and know that they will never see the light of daylight. They should not have any luxury, and suffer.
That's why too often, for me, individuals that commit these horrendous acts, they kill themselves, because that's the easy way out. So, I don't know the specifics in regards to this case. But that's my personal feeling, for individuals. And the death penalty, generally, I think it's too easy. That's why people commit horrific acts, and they end up cutting themselves, before someone else do, so that they don't have to suffer for the rest of their lives.
COLLINS: So, what's next for these families? Because we heard from them, who said they didn't feel like they could get closure, from the plea deal, because it did take the death penalty trial off the table. Now, it seems to be back on the table, with him revoking it.
MEEKS: Yes. That's, you know, you always feel for the families. I mean, look, I'm a New Yorker. I will never ever forget 9/11. People that I knew died that day.
And I'm telling you my personal position. But I understand them also. And that does -- I do want them to have closure. I do want them to breathe if they can. I know that it will not bring back their loved one. And that really concerns me, and my heart breaks out in that regards.
But it's hard. It will be hard for them for the rest of their lives, because of the evil acts of those men.
COLLINS: Yes.
MEEKS: And I think that they should be punished for it. And to me, the best form of punishment is to make sure that they have hard labor for the rest of their life.
COLLINS: Yes. And a lot of them wanted, obviously, answers and accountability.
Before this news broke, tonight, the first thing we wanted to ask you about is what's happening, right now, the other move being made by the Pentagon, where they're repositioning U.S. forces, major U.S. assets, closer to the Middle East, in anticipation of Iran's warning that they will conduct a direct strike on Israel.
We don't know if that's going to happen. We don't know what it's going to look like. But clearly, they're bracing for it.
What's the latest that you've heard about what we should be expecting?
MEEKS: Well I'll talk about what I can't talk about. I think that the administration has been good with me, and giving me all the information that it can.
But what I can't talk about is we want to make sure. We know that Iran, and its proxies, Hezbollah and the Houthis, don't mean (ph) Israel. They always say, Israel does not have the right to exist. And we expect them to, you know, they've -- taking them at their own word that they're going to attack Israel.
And so, we want to make sure that Israel has what it needs and is ready to protect itself. But also, we know that Iran could very well look at some of the U.S. assets. And so, we've got to be ready to make sure--
COLLINS: Are you worried about that?
MEEKS: Oh, yes. I'm worried about that. And I'm worried about the Middle East. I mean, the only thing that keeps me up at night is part of it is that the Middle East can explode, and all of the innocent lives, innocent Israelis, innocent people from Lebanon, and innocent people dying. So, I'm hoping, and I know that the administration has individuals there, trying to talk to all sides, trying to cool it down.
It's also the reason why I do think that we need a ceasefire in Gaza, because I think that is indirectly connected. Also, if we can get a ceasefire in Gaza, that might help cool things down also, because an all-out war will take us -- is very bad. And hopefully, that does not happen.
COLLINS: But with the killing of that top Hamas official, Ismail Haniyeh, President Biden said he believes it doesn't help ceasefire talks. Do you see it that way, too?
MEEKS: Yes, look, it's clearly, he was not a good guy. He was designated a terrorist by the United States of America.
[21:40:00]
That being said, he was the guy that was negotiating the ceasefire, and was working with our ally, and working with Qatar, to try to force to get there. And so, whether or not that causes a delay or prevents a ceasefire from happening is something that is concerning to me.
So, I understand President Biden, because he's trying to put a lot of people together, to get a deal done. Because the number one thing that I think that we have to do is get those that are being held hostage, home.
I met, recently, with a number of the families, of those that were -- that are still being held hostage.
COLLINS: Yes.
MEEKS: They want to get those loved ones home. That is the priority that I think we should also have. Let's get those loved ones home. And then -- and the only way that we can do that is with a ceasefire, and hopefully, we can de-escalate what's taking place.
COLLINS: A lot of people are sitting at home tonight, worried that escalation in the Middle East is inevitable. Do you see it that way?
MEEKS: No, I don't see it that way. It's getting close. I don't like what I'm seeing. I think that that's part of what Hamas wanted, in the first place, because they thought that because of the Abraham Accords, and Saudi Arabia talking about normalization with Israel?
COLLINS: Yes.
MEEKS: They didn't want that. They wanted to prevent it. So, I don't want them to win. And that's what they want to stop.
So, I'm concerned about that. I don't think it's an inevitability. I think that we've got to work hard, and try to make sure that the parties de-escalate. And I think that that's what the Biden administration is doing, with people in the region, right now, which is extremely important.
COLLINS: Yes, it's hard to think one year ago, everyone thought Israel was on the cusp of that normalization. And here we are now.
Congressman Gregory Meeks, great to have you here, tonight, to respond to that breaking news. Thank you.
MEEKS: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: Up next, a federal judge has just gotten control again, over that Trump election interference case. You might have forgotten about it, because it has been on virtual hold for seven months. Now, the question is what does she do with it, now that it's back in her court?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:46:05]
COLLINS: Donald Trump's election interference case has been effectively paused, for seven months, as his legal team has been appealing arguments about presidential immunity, all the way up to the Supreme Court. We all saw where that went with that game-changing ruling that we got recently.
But now, that case is back in the hands of the U.S. District Judge, Tanya Chutkan, in Washington, with less than 100 days to go until the election.
Joining me, tonight, to break it all down, and answer our burning questions, CNN Senior Legal Analyst, and the former federal prosecutor. That is Elie Honig.
Elie. Judge Chutkan is now back in charge, of deciding what to make of this case, with the Supreme Court ruling now over it. I mean, what does she do?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, her job, though, is to pick through the wreckage left by the Supreme Court's ruling, and decide what comes in as evidence and what is out of this case.
Now, just to refresh everybody, because there's been a lot of cases. This one's been on hold for a long time, as you said. This is Jack Smith's federal January 6 case. The Supreme Court, about a month ago, gave the ruling, saying yes, there is such thing as presidential immunity. He is immune for official acts.
And now, it goes back to the trial judge, Judge Chutkan, and she has to figure out what is an official act and, therefore, out of the case, and what's an unofficial act, or a private act, and can stay in the case. So, she's got to figure out which falls into which column. COLLINS: Because the other issue is part of the ruling, which was one of the biggest parts, is that they can't use official acts and evidence of that, to make their argument, about unofficial acts.
HONIG: That was the part that I found absolutely astonishing. I mean, I think it was fair to expect there would be some immunity found by the Supreme Court. But they went a step beyond that. They said, if something's out? For example, the Supreme Court said, conversations between the President and DOJ are likely out of the case.
COLLINS: So, Trump and Bill Barr talking.
HONIG: Exactly. Trump trying to pressure DOJ, to find evidence of fraud. That was part of the indictment. Not only can he not be charged for that. The prosecutors can't even mention that, in the case. The same could apply, the Supreme Court suggested, to Trump's conversations with the Vice President.
It's like if I told you, you have to tell the story of The Wizard of Oz, but you can't even mention the Lion or the Tin Man.
And my question is, is Jack Smith going to be able to tell a coherent narrative, once all those pieces are pulled out?
COLLINS: Yes. And I think the other question is timing.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, we've seen, this has been every story. This is now the last federal case against Trump.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Will Scharf, his attorney, was on CNN earlier. And this is what he said about when this could go wherever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILL SCHARF, TRUMP ATTORNEY: The idea that this immensely complex case, with millions of pages of discovery, and potentially hundreds of witnesses, could have ever been ready for trial, in just a few months from indictment, to me, is crazy, and speaks to a potential political motives, on the part of the Special Counsel's office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, that has been their argument.
But the thing here is it's a very different judge.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: And this is a judge, who has moved things along at a faster pace than anyone else, who's been dealing with Trump's stuff, almost.
HONIG: Yes, I agree that the initial trial date, which was set for March, would have been unfairly quick. It would not have given him enough time.
But here we are. Now we're about a year after the indictment. Here's what I think people should expect, moving forward. This will not be tried before the election.
Even if Judge Chutkan, on Monday, says, OK, parties, I want you in here Wednesday. We're going to do a hearing in the next couple of weeks. And then we're going to try this case? That won't work. Because the Supreme Court said whatever Judge Chutkan finds, Donald Trump can then re-appeal back to us. So, no trial.
But here's what we could see. And this could be really important, especially as we get closer to the election. Judge Chutkan, and I think she will do this, could say we're going to have a hearing. It's not a trial. There's no jury. There's no verdict. But I'm going to hear the prosecution's evidence, and I'm going to decide what's official and what's not official, what she (ph) has immunity for, and what he does not have immunity for.
And in that hearing, the prosecution may try to call explosive witnesses, including potentially Mark Meadows, maybe Mike Pence. And this could be happening in the next few weeks, as we get close to the election.
COLLINS: And does Donald Trump have to be there for that? What does that look like?
[21:50:00]
HONIG: So typically, a defendant only has to be physically present for trial. He will have the option of being there. So, I think the judge will give him the option. Sometimes, judges say this is too important. You do have to be physically present. Of course, we're coming up on the stretch run of the election here. So, he probably will be allowed to skip it if he's out on the trail.
But the timing here, Kaitlan, I mean we're, what, 95 days now? Imagine Mike Pence taking the stand, in the middle of September, the impact that could have.
COLLINS: I'm sure, Mike Pence would love that.
HONIG: Yes, he'd be delighted.
COLLINS: Elie Honig.
HONIG: Thanks.
COLLINS: I'm being sarcastic there.
Thank you for that.
Up next, those three Americans that we showed freed from Russia, finally home. The heartbreaking wait for the families of other detainees, like American, Marc Fogel. We're going to talk to a hostage negotiator, right after a quick break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The emotional return of three Americans, in the largest prisoner swap between the West and Russia, since the Cold War, is also serving as a brutal reminder of the other Americans that are still being held in prisons, abroad.
[21:55:00]
That includes Marc Fogel, a school teacher, who was arrested on drug charges, three years ago, after he entered Russia, with a small amount of marijuana. His family says that he had it for medical reasons. And they are heartbroken, after he was not included, in yesterday's historic release.
President Biden was asked today, about U.S. efforts, to bring him home as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Marc Fogel, the Pennsylvania teacher, still sitting in a Russian prison, what would you tell his family?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We're not giving up -- we're not giving up on that.
REPORTER: Mr. President, what more can you do? What more can you do?
BIDEN: You want me to tell you ahead of time, so he doesn't get out?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My inside source, tonight, hostage negotiator, Nobel Peace Prize nominee, Mickey Bergman, who is the Co-author of "In the Shadows: True Stories of High-Stakes Negotiations to Free Americans Captured Abroad."
And Mickey, it's great to have you back on.
Because you've got to feel for Marc Fogel's family. One of them was speaking to Erin Burnett, last night, and just a tearful interview, about how this felt.
And they did try to get him out. Russia refused to allow him to be part of this plea deal. And you heard President Biden there.
But I think the question is, how much harder is it to get people like him out, when the biggest bargaining chips, these Russian assassins that we saw traded as part of this deal yesterday, were already a part of a swap.
MICKEY BERGMAN, CEO, GLOBAL REACH, VICE PRESIDENT, RICHARDSON CENTER FOR GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT: Well, thank you, Kaitlan.
First of all, let me say, look, today and yesterday were good days. And this was an operation that was run by the U.S. government, and negotiated, and executed by the U.S. government. And I commend the President, for going ahead and being able to pull it, of his team, at the White House, the CIA, the State Department, everybody that has been involved. It's incredible.
But as you said, at the same time, and I wrote about it, I have failed four times, four times, to bring Paul Whelan, back home. And I was extremely delighted to see him back today.
And with every win, we have losses, and we have people left behind. There are Americans such as Andre Khachaturian, and Robert Gilman, and Ksenia Karelina, and -- and sorry, and a few others that we're working on. David Barnes. Sorry. To get them back.
I spoke, and I spent time with the families, of those Americans that have been left behind.
COLLINS: Yes.
BERGMAN: It is crushing. It is absolutely crushing. Paul Whelan's family has been in that position, a couple of times before. They know how it feels.
And the President is right. We need to bring them home. It is possible.
I spoke to you, two months ago. And I was optimistic about this deal.
COLLINS: Yes.
BERGMAN: I am still optimistic that we can bring the rest of them home. It is different. But there is a deal to be done.
COLLINS: Yes. And for Paul Whelan, I mean, we saw it with Trevor Reed, with Brittney Griner. We would hear the frustration from his family. So, it was all the more remarkable, last night, to hear from him, after he got off that plane. Not just Paul, of course. We also heard from Evan Gershkovich.
BERGMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: I just want everyone to listen to what they said, right after they got off the plane.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL WHELAN, FORMER U.S. MARINE FREED FROM RUSSIA: I went on a two- week vacation, you know? The FSB grabbed me, said I was a spy. I'm apparently a general in the Army, a secret agent for DIA. This is the nonsense narrative they came up with. And they just, they wouldn't let it go. So, you know, this is how Putin runs his government.
EVAN GERSHKOVICH, WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER FREED FROM RUSSIA: I just spent a month in prison in Yekaterinburg where there's a whole -- basically everybody I was sat with is a political prisoner. And nobody -- nobody -- nobody knows them publicly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I think to just hear them talking about what they personally witnessed, what they were doing, these sham charges that they were both being held on.
There is a concern that this is how Putin operates, and he sees value in people like Paul Whelan, and reporters like Evan Gershkovich, in detaining them, in order to get the people he wants, murderers, criminals, spies, back home.
BERGMAN: Look, the Russians clearly see hostage diplomacy as a legitimate statecraft tool. They've done it before. They continue to do it. They will probably do it again. And they still have, as we said, Americans held over there.
We need to focus. And that's what the President did with this deal. We need to focus on the efforts that we need to, in order to bring our innocent Americans back home. That is what we need to do, as a country. We can deal with the deterrence. We can deal with the ramifications of what we had to give, later. First, they have to come home.
And I have to say, Kaitlan, if I had -- you know, I heard Representative Meeks, talk earlier, on your show, about Gaza. A message to Bibi Netanyahu. Take a lesson from President Biden. This is what a leader does. You do whatever it takes, in order to bring your people home.
COLLINS: Yes, it's obviously a very difficult thing. We heard from President Biden on that.
[22:00:00]
I will say, on Evan Gershkovich. We knew that as part of his formal clemency that he had to write to Putin, to actually leave, that at the end of it he asked for an interview, with the Russian leader. And there was a statement from the Kremlin spokesperson, today, saying that they would consider that request. We'll see if that actually happens.
Mickey Bergman, great to have your perspective on this, tonight. Thank you.
BERGMAN: Thank you so much.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much, for joining us, on this busy Friday night.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts right now.
