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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Tonight: Trump Rallies In Montana, Harris In Arizona; Trump Claims He Has Records Proving He Was In Emergency Chopper Landing With Willie Brown; Former U.S. Ambassador To Russia: No "Off-Ramp" In Putin's Mind. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 09, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDREW KACZYNSKI, SENIOR EDITOR, CNN KFILE: North Carolina governor, Roy Cooper, Ilhan Omar Andrew Cuomo, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, Anthony Fauci, Bill Gates, and Barack Obama, who she even said, quote, I want to see a Pay Per View of him in front of a firing squad.
Now, we did reach out to her campaign. We asked about, about this stuff, and what she said. And they said -- they didn't respond to it. But they said what North Carolina voters are concerned about is the education of our children.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: It's pretty extraordinary video, and a pretty extraordinary record there.
Andrew Kaczynski, thank you so much for your reporting. Everyone at the KFILE, great work on this. Have a great weekend.
The news continues. So we're going to hand it over to Kaitlan Collins. "THE SOURCE" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Harris and Walz taking Arizona, another massive crowd in an uphill battleground. Pete Buttigieg is here to talk about that.
While Donald Trump is back on the campaign trail in Montana. We'll tell you why the former President is there instead of a swing state. And what has him so upset tonight that he called one of our sources, tonight, to complain.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
There's a lot happening, on a very busy Friday night. The Harris-Walz ticket holding a major rally in the critical battleground of Arizona, where Biden narrowly defeated Donald Trump in 2020.
And just as we have seen in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan, this crowd outside of Phoenix was fired up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Few people showed up in Philadelphia, the other night.
(CHEERS)
WALZ: And then 10,000-plus walked into a field in western Wisconsin.
(CHEERS)
WALZ: And then, on Wednesday, the largest crowd of the campaign showed up, in Detroit, Michigan.
(CHEERS)
WALZ: But Arizona just couldn't leave it alone. Could you?
(CHEERS)
WALZ: It's not as if anybody cares about crowd sizes or anything, so.
(CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was Tim Walz.
Now, Vice President Harris is on stage, as of this moment. And seconds ago, she reiterated that she believes that her and her new running mate still have a major fight ahead of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So Arizona, this has been a big week.
(CHEERS)
HARRIS: As exciting as this is, we cannot lose sight of a really important fact. We are definitely running as the underdog. We are the underdog. We are out in great numbers, but we got a lot of work to do. And this is going to be hard work. But I know we like hard work. Hard work is good work for all of us.
(CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, as that rally is happening, in Arizona, we are also waiting on Donald Trump, to take the stage soon, in the decidedly non- battleground state of Montana. He's there stumping for Republicans, in a critical Senate race, and also at a fundraiser to pick up some campaign cash, this evening.
This is the first time that Donald Trump has actually been on the campaign trail, since Harris unveiled her running mate, on Monday.
Just yesterday, he told reporters that he'll be back in force, after the Democratic convention, which would put him off the trail for about the next two weeks. We'll see if that sticks.
Meanwhile, the Harris campaign sounds thrilled, about Trump's light schedule, saying, quote, fine by us.
CNN's Eva McKend is at that Harris rally in Glendale, right now.
Eva, obviously, a lot of people have talked about the honeymoon phase of this race, what this looks like. But you're there in the room. Obviously, Arizona used to be a Republican battleground until Biden won it in 2020. Just tell us what it's like on the ground, Eva.
EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kaitlan, I'm here to report that the momentum is absolutely real. This place is filled to the rafters. So much energy and enthusiasm, tonight.
I want to acknowledge a moment that Vice President Harris had, up on the stage. There were some protesters, in the crowd, calling for a ceasefire. And she actually held space for that.
Her response was different than what she said in Michigan, when she said, if you want Donald Trump to win, then say that, but I'm speaking.
Well tonight, she acknowledged their frustrations. She said that she too wants a ceasefire, and that she also wants to work to bring all of the hostages home, and that in concert with President Biden, she's working to do so.
Kaitlan, I'll leave you with this. She had to address the border, here in this border state of Arizona. And she talked about it tonight, saying that she both supports border security, comprehensive immigration reform, and a pathway, an earned pathway to citizenship. So, that is how she is talking about this fragile issue, right here, in this battleground state.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Eva McKend, in Glendale, Arizona.
Eva, and you'll keep watching that rally. Bring us any other moments that happen while she's on stage.
[21:05:00]
My source tonight is the former Democratic presidential candidate himself, Pete Buttigieg, who I should note is appearing here, in his personal capacity, as a Democrat, not on behalf of the Biden administration, as the Transportation Secretary. Just to be clear for everyone.
And it's great to have you here.
You heard what Eva was just saying there, about that moment where Vice President Harris, as these pro-Palestinian protesters, as they appeared to be, started interrupting her rally. How she changed the way she handled it -- handled it from a few days ago, in Michigan. Tonight, saying, let me just address this issue, saying she does want to get a ceasefire deal. She does want to get a hostage deal done. And then returning to her stump speech.
What do you make of that change? And do you think that's the right way to handle these voices?
PETE BUTTIGIEG, (D) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think she's handling this with seriousness and sensitivity. She understands the passion that people bring to this issue, which, of course, makes sense, because of the anguish over the situation in the Middle East.
She's also made clear that her position and her goal is peace, a ceasefire deal, where the hostages come home, and everybody has greater peace and security in the Middle East. Nobody is saying that's easy or simple.
But when you compare how she's approaching it, to the real lack of any kind of meaningful alternative, coming from the Trump-Vance ticket, I think it's one more example of why, in these troubled times, we need the kind of leadership that someone like her, and Tim Walz, are going to bring to Washington.
COLLINS: Well, and you heard Eva mention immigration. Obviously, it constantly ranks as a top issue, especially in Arizona. In your view, how does Vice President Harris convince voters there that she is better-equipped to this -- to handle this, than Donald Trump is?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think part of it is reminding everybody of her own background, confronting cartels, making sure, from her time as an attorney general, as a prosecutor, in a border state, and before that, as a district attorney, that she understands what it means to look after the rule of law, and to keep people safe.
On the other side, something that she's going to point out, and has pointed out, effectively, you have Donald Trump, who came in to destroy a bipartisan deal that would have made the border safer.
And the reason that he destroyed it is not because he had some principled objection. It's because, actually, precisely because it would have made the border safer. See, if the border gets better, it's worse for Donald Trump, because he thrives on that chaos. That's why he came in, at the last minute, and undercut that border deal.
But most importantly, her message about that isn't backward-looking. Her message is forward-looking. She has said very clearly, Congress should put that border deal back together, bring it to her, and as president, she'll sign it.
COLLINS: Yes, and she repeated that on stage tonight.
There's no denying that Trump tanked that bill. We had Senator James Lankford, who helped negotiate it, the Republican himself here talk about this.
But on immigration itself, and where she's been previously, she has, in the past, voiced support for decriminalizing illegal border crossings. And so, when it comes to how she's reversed her positions, from some places that she staked out in the last Democratic primary, that you all both ran in, do you want to hear that from Harris herself, instead of reading about it in stories, on background, from reporters, like what we've been doing?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think her current position is clear. The campaign has made that clear. But most importantly, especially after everything our country has been through, in recent years, she has made clear, where she stands on the legislation that's actually in front of us, which is that bipartisan border deal.
And again, this is up against Donald Trump, who has no interest in solving the problem. After all, he didn't, right? One of many things that he promised and failed to do, was he ran for president promising to fix all our problems at the border, and make sure immigration was sorted out forever in this country.
Of course, nothing of the sort happened. Because again, unfortunately, the worse that problem gets for America, the better it is for Donald Trump.
COLLINS: Harris is on stage with Governor Walz, her new running mate that she introduced this week. I haven't spoken to you, since she picked him as her running mate.
I want you to listen to what former President Donald Trump said about Tim Walz yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She picked a radical-left man, that is, he's got things done that he -- he has positions that are just not -- it's not even possible to believe that they exist. He's going for things that nobody's ever even heard of, heavy into the transgender world, heavy into lots of different worlds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As you know, Governor Walz has been a major proponent for transgender rights, gender-affirming care. He signed executive orders regarding that in his home state of Minnesota.
But I wonder just what your reaction is to how Donald Trump is talking about that. He said that yesterday. The day before he said he's into transgender everything, was the quote that he gave to Fox News.
BUTTIGIEG: Well, first of all, it's another example of Trump's inability to talk about what he is actually going to do, to make anyone's lives better. What Tim Walz focused on, and focuses on as governor, is just that.
[21:10:00]
You look at the achievements in Minnesota. And you don't have to be a Democrat or a progressive to be, I think, really impressed with what he's done, to make sure that every child attending school can eat, to make sure that there's paid family leave, something the vast majority of Americans think we should have, but Republicans are against.
On issue after issue, what you see is what you get with Tim Walz, which is a pretty common-sensical middle-of-the-road Democrat and Midwestern governor.
Now look, this is a playbook that is as unimaginative, as it is unconvincing, because this is what Republicans say about literally any Democrat, running against literally any Republican. They always say that they're too far-left. It could be Joe Manchin running for president, and they'd say he's too far-left.
But it's also pretty mushy and lazy, for Donald Trump's best attack to be what was it, he's heavily into lots of different worlds? Like, you'd think he would at least be able to point to a few more specifics.
But sometimes, you get the feeling that Trump's heart isn't in this anymore, that the laziness of his attacks, not to mention the, again, lack of any coherent account of what he's actually going to do, to make Americans' lives better.
COLLINS: You think he's a different kind of candidate now than he was in 2020 or 2016, in terms of how he's approaching this race, you mean?
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, I mean, you can just tell that he's lost a step. He's getting mushier, fuzzier, more confused.
You look at this press conference. He declared that he was in a helicopter that went down with Willie Brown on board. He's never even been in a helicopter with Willie Brown.
And it does raise some real concerns about what's happened to Donald Trump, over the years, right? Is this a symptom of something? Is he struggling to maintain a grip on reality, or to tell the difference between dreams and what is real? Or best-case scenario, he's just lying again.
COLLINS: Republicans are attacking Governor Walz over when he retired from the military, after he served for 24 years, also overstating his title on some occasions, his rank, where he was.
As a fellow veteran, who you were careful about how you characterized your service on the campaign -- campaign trail when you ran, what do you make of those attacks?
BUTTIGIEG: I think it's one example, one more example of how all they can do is tear down.
Look, in the military, you're eligible to retire after 20 years. Tim Walz stayed for 24 years. And some people are trying to attack him, because he didn't make it 25 or 26. It's just not the way that most service members, most veterans, would talk about their own service, or someone else's service. And it's part of a broader pattern, especially what you see with J.D.
Vance, right? Earlier, he was getting a lot of attention for the way he talks about family. Not so much lifting up the idea of family, and talk about how proud he is to be a father. But rather saying that if you're not a parent, there's something wrong with you, the whole childless cat ladies thing.
And there's something kind of similar here, right? He didn't just say that he's proud of the time that he's served in the Marines, and leave it at that. He has to tear down somebody else's service.
And I would say, saying that somebody's time in the military is unworthy, because they didn't deploy to a war zone, is a lot like saying that somebody's life choices aren't worthy, because she happens to not have children. And there's just a total lack of ability to actually build up, lift up, which is what campaigns are about.
So much of politics is about how you make people feel. So much of leadership is about what you bring out of people. And by that standard, Harris-Walz has been a home run, and we're seeing the exact opposite from Trump-Vance.
COLLINS: Well, and one part of where they've been bolstered, is the -- you know, him suggesting that he carried weapons in war, which they have clarified.
I believe a spokesperson said tonight that he misspoke on that. And that he was previously identified -- and had identified himself as a retired Command Sergeant Major. He served as that, was elevated to that, but he reverted back to the rank of Master Sergeant, when he left because he didn't complete the appropriate coursework.
Should he be just careful about how he talks about this, precise, and how he talks about this, given it has bolstered what we've been hearing from Republicans?
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, of course. And they took the opportunity to clear that up.
But again, I think this shows you how desperate Republicans are, not to talk about the issues. They don't want to talk about their proposal for tax cuts for the rich. They don't want to talk about their campaign to end a woman's right to choose in this country.
So, they need us to be quibbling over the finer points of how when you have a conditional promotion to Command Sergeant Major, but don't retire at that rank, it's different from if you retire at that rank, but you still technically held at it. Those are the kinds of things they want us talking about, because they don't want us talking about the underlying issue.
[21:15:00]
Same thing with the thing about the weapons that Tim Walz very much did carry, and fire, and train on, and used, across his 24-year military career, right? The reason why they are going so deep, and so hard, is to find the one time, out of however many times he has talked about the issue, the one time, when instead of saying the weapons of war he carried, the -- he said the weapons he carried at war.
It's to make sure that we don't think about what he was actually talking about, at the time, which is that weapons, like the weapons he trained on, assault weapons, those military-style weapons, should not be in our neighborhoods. They should not be in our schools. And they should not be threatening the lives of our children. A position, by the way, that most Americans agree with.
But the last thing that the Trump ticket wants to talk about is why they are facing down, and disagreeing with the 90 percent of Americans, including the vast amount -- majority of Republicans, who think we should at least have universal background checks, to keep our kids and our communities safe.
They want us to be talking about anything but their deeply-unpopular plans. And this is an example of that.
So, yes, of course it's important to clear up the time that he misspoke. But let's not allow them to successfully use that, to distract what is actually going to affect you, right now, sitting at home, hoping your kids will be safe when they go to school, which is, of course, not the finer points of terminology.
COLLINS: Yes.
BUTTIGIEG: It's whether the President of the United States is actually going to get serious about gun safety.
COLLINS: Pete Buttigieg, thank you for joining us tonight.
BUTTIGIEG: Thanks for having me on.
COLLINS: Coming up, here on THE SOURCE. Donald Trump is about to take the stage in Montana. We're watching that closely.
But we're also learning that he made a phone call, an incensed one, on the way to that rally. Maggie Haberman was the recipient of it. She has the new details. And she will join us. It's about what you just heard Pete Buttigieg mention there, a so-called emergency chopper landing, he says he was in, with Willie Brown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIE BROWN, FORMER SAN FRANCISCO MAYOR: Never happened. Period. And I think my memory is probably better than his.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Soon, Donald Trump will return to the campaign stage, for his first rally, since Kamala Harris replaced Joe Biden, atop the Democratic ticket, officially.
But the former President is not taking the stage in a battleground state, tonight. Instead, you're going to see him, in a few moments, in reliably-red Montana, where a Senate Democrat is trying to hold on to a very competitive seat, in a very expensive race. Donald Trump, obviously, is there, stumping for his Republican opponent.
That's where we find CNN's Alayna Treene, in Bozeman.
And Alayna, obviously, it's been six days since Trump's last rally. What are you hearing from the Trump campaign, about where he is choosing to spend his time and why?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, it is interesting that he came to Montana, especially on such an important week, Kaitlan, where Harris -- and excuse me, it's very loud in here. You have Steve Daines behind me, right now, roaring up the crowd.
But especially in a week where Harris had picked her vice presidential candidate, and announced that she would be running with Tim Walz. They tell me, and you heard Donald Trump himself address this, yesterday, during that press conference, at Mar-a-Lago, that he's going to be picking up his schedule following the Democratic National Convention. And that he's not traveling as much as he thinks other candidates need to, because he believes he's doing better in the polls.
Of course, we know that the race has tightened significantly, now that Harris is atop the ticket, and that they're really in a dead heat, according to our own polls.
But look, the reason he is in Montana, you're exactly right, is to stump for Senator Tim -- or excuse me, for Senate candidate, Tim Sheehy, who is in a very close race with Jon Tester.
I actually caught up with Steve Daines, Montana Senator, as well as the Chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, offstage. He's currently on stage behind me.
But we spoke moments ago, where he told me that he privately encouraged Donald Trump, to come here, even though it's not a battleground state, and it doesn't matter for his own campaign. Because he thinks that this state is key to winning the Senate Majority. He said he sees this as the 51st state, after if they're able to win West Virginia, which Daines said he thinks he's confident in.
So, that's why you're finding Donald Trump here, tonight, instead of focusing on his own race.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Alayna Treene, we'll be watching that rally. Thank you very much.
Meanwhile, Donald Trump angrily, insisting tonight, on his way to Montana, that he can prove he was in an emergency landing in a helicopter, with Willie Brown, even though it is something that the former San Francisco Mayor himself denied, on CNN.
This all started, during the former President's news conference, yesterday, when he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I know Willie Brown very well. In fact, I went down in a helicopter with him. We thought, maybe this is the end. We were in a helicopter, going to a certain location, together, and there was an emergency landing. This was not a pleasant landing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The reporter, who was on the other end, of an angry phone call from Trump, this evening, is Senior Political Correspondent at The New York Times, Maggie Haberman.
OK. I mean, this was like 20th on like that moments from yesterday's news conference. But why is he--
MAGGIE HABERMAN, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's bad.
COLLINS: --angry about this, and why is he calling you about it?
HABERMAN: So, the phone call was actually on another topic. And then, in the middle of it, he started railing about this story, because The New York Times and other publications wrote about the fact that Willie Brown, as you know, said it on CNN too, says this did not happen.
Trump got asked about Willie Brown, and he brought up this helicopter story. And what I learned today is that Trump put this story, in his 2023 book, Letters to Trump.
One of the letters he included was from Willie Brown. They knew each other in the 1990s. And he referenced this alleged helicopter emergency landing. Fine. Nobody noticed it at the time. His issue is with Willie Brown, who is saying that this didn't happen.
[21:25:00]
But in the middle of it, he said that he has, in the middle of this phone conversation, he said he has -- they found the records, and it landed in a field, and indicated that he was going to release them.
And I said that I would love to see them, and he made fun of me, asking that in a sort of child sing-song voice, and then said he was probably going to sue. He said, you. I didn't write the story, but I assume he meant the paper, for writing about this. If he has records, he should show them.
What I thought was most interesting about this conversation -- although certainly, if he has these records, we would write about it, it'd be interesting -- was that he was focusing on this, because that is what we have seen him do, historically, when he is in times of stress. COLLINS: What do you mean in a sing-song voice? Like, you asked a question and he--
HABERMAN: I really don't want to do a recreation here.
COLLINS: He repeated it back to you?
HABERMAN: Right. It was that I asked a question, and I said, I would love to see the records. And it was, oh, you'd love to see the records, in a sort of -- in a child-like voice, so.
COLLINS: OK. I mean, so this came after The New York Times wrote up, about that news conference, yesterday.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: And all of the moments that happened inside of it.
Part of that said, "The goal of Mr. Trump's news conference... was to highlight that Ms. Harris has yet to hold a news conference"--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --"of her own or to give an unscripted interview to the news media."
Both of those things are true.
HABERMAN: Yes, they are.
COLLINS: We have obviously -- we just talked to Pete Buttigieg, about it. But how does -- do they think that they achieved their goal in this?
HABERMAN: So, it's interesting, Kaitlan. Yesterday was such an example of how these two campaigns -- and this has been true of every campaign that I have covered, going back to 2004. They are living in different bubbles.
Those bubbles have gotten more divergent as partisanship has gotten worse, and as create your own media adventures have increased, where there's proliferation of outlets, more -- a proliferation of partisan outlets. People can choose what information they want to believe. And so, these bubbles exist, and there's these wildly different theories of the case.
And so, if you talk to the Harris people, their basic take was, this was a gift. He said a bunch of things that we are going to be able to use.
And if you talk to the Trump people, it was, generally speaking, we were really happy that he stood there for an hour, and he took questions. And yes, he said some things that were not helpful. But he also made a bunch of points that the campaign wants him making.
COLLINS: Him-- HABERMAN: I don't know who's right. We will find out in November.
COLLINS: We'll see if the--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --what voters think.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: It was August 2016, when he made a pretty big campaign shakeup, the first time he was running. Anthony Scaramucci raised this idea, the other night, about him possibly doing that now, just because he's frustrated with how this race has been reset, and how the polls have tightened significantly.
Do you have -- what's your indication of how he's feeling about the campaign team?
HABERMAN: Yes, look, so, two things. He did a shakeup -- two shakeups in 2016.
COLLINS: Yes.
HABERMAN: He did one in June. And he did one in August. He did one shakeup in July of 2020. I don't believe that that is in the offing, right now. The problem really is, is not the campaign. The problem is the candidate.
The candidate actually still has a lot of advantages that favor him, in this race, against the Vice President. The map favors him. His message, in a large way, about his record favors him. The fact that voters, many of them, are nostalgic about his record, and this is something we wrote about yesterday too, favors him.
If he could just stick to that message. But he wants to talk about what he wants to talk about, like, Willie Brown in a helicopter.
COLLINS: Also, I mean, he's getting in a fight with Joe Rogan because the--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --very popular podcast host--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --said that he supported RFK Jr., that he liked him.
Trump said, now "It will be interesting to see how loudly Joe Rogan gets BOOED the next time he enters the UFC Ring." He's not a UFC fighter, but obviously goes to those events.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: IVF, or -- excuse me, Mifepristone, and access to that, yesterday, was something that Trump was asked about. If he would have the FDA block access, or limit access to it, if he becomes president again. It's a key part of Project 2025.
Harris talked about that on stage, tonight. This is what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: And just yesterday, in a press conference, we got a fresh reminder of what Donald Trump's Project 2025 agenda would do. It would ban medication abortion in every state.
(AUDIENCE BOOS)
HARRIS: But we are not going to let that happen, because we trust women.
(CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, he didn't say he'd ban it. But he didn't give a clear answer on it, yesterday. You were there.
HABERMAN: It wasn't even clear to me that he understood what the question was, to be honest. I mean, his answer was incoherent, and it was something about support and voters. And the question was about FDA regulations, and about Justice Department enforcement. So, I don't know what he thought he was answering.
He suggested to Time Magazine, many weeks ago, that he was going to have a major announcement about this, and that he felt very strongly about it. And as we have seen him do with many other things, he just kicks it down the road, by saying he'll talk about it at a later date, as he did with a question, yesterday, about an abortion referendum, in his own state, and how he'll vote on it.
So, it is not surprising that the Harris campaign framed it that way. It's not quite what he said. But he is going to deal with this until he addresses it.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: Yes. Your story, tonight, just on Willie Brown is very strong 2016 vibes--
HABERMAN: There was a -- there was a lot of 2016. Now it -- remember, he won in 2016. So, we'll see what that ends up looking like.
COLLINS: Yes.
HABERMAN: But it also felt like 2020. And that had its moments too.
COLLINS: Maggie Haberman, as always, thank you.
HABERMAN: Thank you. COLLINS: Now, with a critical debate, officially on, we have just learned who is going to be helping Harris prep, to go face-to-face with Donald Trump, by playing the role of Donald Trump. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We've already seen how a presidential debate can impact the presidential race. Now that nominees, both of them have agreed to at least one debate, The Washington Post is reporting tonight that Philippe Reines, a long-time aide to Hillary Clinton, has been lined up to now play the role for Trump -- of Trump, in the debate prep for the Harris team.
[21:35:00]
It's an experience that he has done before. He did it for Hillary Clinton. And he told me recently it's changed, over the years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILIPPE REINES, FORMER ADVISER TO HILLARY CLINTON: They were two very different Donald Trumps, in the sense that in 2016 -- I always have a hard time having this come out of my mouth. But there was a message in Donald Trump.
There was a lot of bluster. There was a lot of lying. There was all the things that we see now. But at the core, there was talking about health care. There's talking about jobs leaving America. There was talking about immigration. There was a balance.
2020, he was just an angry guy. He was grievances. There was out of whack. It's all he talked about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: This week has stood out in the terms of the number of Republicans, who have been, many of them here on this show, pleading with the former President, to focus more on his message and less on his grievances. The question, of course, is whether or not he is listening.
Our Republican source tonight is the Governor of New Hampshire, Chris Sununu.
Governor, it's great to have you here.
With about less than 90 days to go--
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R-NH): You bet.
COLLINS: --to the election, which you have described is a coin toss. Does it make sense to you that Donald Trump is out campaigning in a state that, yes, has a very important Senate seat. But other than that, he's really just been at home this week, and not out in the states that are going to decide who wins this election.
SUNUNU: Well, no, look, the Trump campaign, right now, is fundraising. That's what they're doing.
I think everyone understands that August, because, you know, after the Democrats pushed the President aside, they instilled Kamala, they have the new vice presidential nominee. They're going to have their convention. August is that honeymoon period.
Everyone's been saying it. But it's very real. And there's going to be kind of 30 days, where folks are really focusing on everything except issues, positions and where this country wants to go.
The Trump campaign, my sense, is going to really start engaging, when folks are paying attention to those issues, just after Labor Day, and they're going to make it a 60-day race on issues, on the border, on inflation, on homelessness, on all these things that her administration has failed on.
And that's why I think you bring up a great point. The debate is going to be important. I think she's making a huge mistake, by not engaging with the press. She's not doing any press conferences. She's not talking. She's not taking any questions.
You need to do that to kind of warm up, before you jump on a debate stage. Otherwise, they're going to get the same results as 2016, which is fine by me. I'm voting for Donald Trump.
But if they think that this honeymoon period is going to continue forever, it's just not. I mean, she needs to be up by probably five or six points, in most swing states, by the end of August, because that bump is going to come down, right? So, she's going to need that buffer.
COLLINS: Yes. But you don't--
SUNUNU: And still be able to withhold, I think, the onslaught.
COLLINS: But you don't think that it's a mistake if Donald Trump's not out, in Michigan, in Arizona, in Wisconsin, in Pennsylvania, over the next two weeks or so?
SUNUNU: Well, he could be. And again, it's not about that. He's known for his big rallies and all that. But he's fundraising. He's, I think, building coalitions, by helping these other candidates, knowing that, look, they got to hold the House, they got to hold the Senate. There's bigger-picture stuff here.
So no, I don't -- I don't blame him for -- I mean, that's what -- that's what folks do, in terms of leadership. That's what I've done as governor. Even during my races, I'm always out helping other folks campaign, for their races, and doing a lot of the fundraising to have the resources.
There's probably another $500 million, on both sides, to be spent, over the next 60 to 90 days.
COLLINS: Overall, is the way that Donald Trump is running this campaign, the way that you'd be doing it, right now, in a race this tight?
SUNUNU: Right now, I think -- I think they're fine.
Again, if they pivot, right? And as you guys have been talking about, I've been talking about, if they can pivot and focus on issues, and get away from the personal attacks, similar to what they were doing about two months ago, right, when they had, a series of things that really put their campaign into the lead, substantially.
It wasn't just Joe Biden. I mean, Trump was winning in the polls before that debate. And because they were focusing on issues, they kind of professionalized that campaign a little bit. If they can get back to that, I think they can be very successful.
COLLINS: You said, if they pivot. Three very important words. I mean, do you think that Donald Trump is--
SUNUNU: Big words.
COLLINS: --going to be pivoting?
SUNUNU: It's not so much him, but it's the campaign, right? It's how they spend their money, how they spend their resources, how they do their ads, what they're focusing on.
There's a lot there. When you talk about Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, there is a lot there to go after, when it comes to positions, issues and actual things of substance that families want to hear about that the Republicans win.
Republicans win on issues all day long. So, as long as we can stay there, and invest the dollars there, keep the advertising there, keep the momentum there, then, again, they're going to be successful. But as soon as they start kind of falling back into the personal attacks?
And Democrats have done it too, right? They're calling him weird. They're doing that.
Everyone, all American families, just want a--
COLLINS: Yes, but--
SUNUNU: --a real discussion.
COLLINS: They're--
SUNUNU: They want politics that they're used to seeing.
COLLINS: But they're calling the other party, weird. Donald Trump is going after members of his own party. Brian Kemp, the Governor of Georgia, last Saturday night, probably got just as many attacks--
SUNUNU: Yes.
COLLINS: --lobbed at him, as Harris did.
And Brian Kemp was on stage today at Erick Erickson's event. Listen to what he had to say about this.
[21:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): And I would just, you know, look, lot of noise out there, as you can imagine, lot of distractions, which, in my opinion, is not what we need to be doing, right now, in the presidential campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: He not only attacked Brian Kemp. He also attacked his wife, Governor. Is he at risk of losing Georgia, if he continues to go after a very popular Republican governor, who says he is voting for Donald Trump?
SUNUNU: Yes. Oh no, it's a horrible idea.
Look, Brian is not just a popular governor. He's a great governor. I mean, he's a really phenomenal guy, and a phenomenal governor. They get -- they have -- there's some personal issues that Trump still holds. I give Brian a lot of credit. He's taking the higher ground.
But no, Trump is doing himself no favors. If he wants to win this race, focus on issues, focus on what -- don't focus on what you want to talk about. That's always the key for a politician. You focus on what you're hearing. The feedback is, I can't pay my bills. Inflation has gone up 25 percent. I can't pay my rent. Homelessness is created. These are the things, if he just focuses there, where he's going to be very, very successful.
And in the meantime, it's perfectly normal to be out there, campaigning for other -- in other races.
COLLINS: Yes.
SUNUNU: You don't spend every time, only -- all your time, only in a swing state. There's 50 states in the country. And he's going after all of it.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, and going after Brian Kemp's wife as well.
Governor Sununu, thank you for joining tonight.
SUNUNU: You bet.
COLLINS: A programming note here, because the former Governor of Minnesota, Jesse Ventura, is going to be joining "LAURA COATES LIVE," tonight. She's going to get his take on those attacks on Tim Walz's military record, and much more. That is just coming up here shortly, a 11:00 p.m. Eastern here. You do not want to miss it.
Up next here on THE SOURCE, though. Putin is being taken by surprise, tonight, as Ukraine is pressing with an offensive inside of Russia. What this stunning turn could mean? [21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Ukrainian troops are inside Russia, pressing ahead with an unprecedented military operation. New video that we are just getting in, of a group of Ukrainian soldiers, holding their flag, in front of a key gas transit hub that's in southwest Russia that you're looking at here.
And tonight, reports from Russian military bloggers indicate that an extremely fluid situation, in that region, that potentially a wider area, is under Ukrainian assault.
Another disturbing video shows burned-out Russian military trucks that appear to contain dozens of dead bodies. A Russian military blogger says this is the aftermath of a Ukrainian strike that happened.
There's a lot to discuss, tonight, about what's happening. We're going to do so with John J. Sullivan, who served as the U.S. Ambassador to Russia, from 2019 to 2022. His new book, "Midnight in Moscow" is out now. It is a riveting read.
And Ambassador, just first on what we're seeing happening, right now. Do you believe that Russia was caught off guard by what has happened here?
AMB. JOHN J. SULLIVAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Oh, well, first of all, Kaitlan, good to be with you this evening.
Absolutely. I followed the Russian media day by day. And the initial reports were they treated it as a minor incursion. And over the last several days, the seriousness of what's happened, their weakness on their border, what's happened to them and their military, threatening a gas transit facility, a large nuclear power plant. It's significant. And even Putin's had to address it.
COLLINS: Well. And what does it say to you that he has had to address it, about how he is viewing something like this?
J. SULLIVAN: Well, certainly, he's been forced to address it because of the significant -- the significance of it, and the threat that it poses. And you know what, reminds me of what happened last year, during Prigozhin's mutiny. There were times when the curtain is pulled back, and we see how potentially weak the Russian system is.
Their lack of transparency, the fact that the special military operation is never described to the Russian people accurately. It's just lie after lie. And then something like this happens, and everyone is shocked and surprised, as they were with the Prigozhin mutiny, last year. But it's a feature of the system that Putin presides over.
COLLINS: Well, and you know that system so well. I mean, given, and in the role that you had, for so long, at such a pivotal time, you had meetings with Vladimir Putin. And so, I wonder, just given that, you were obviously, served as Deputy Secretary of State, then as Ambassador.
And when it comes to this war, you write in your book that you believe there's no off-ramp in Putin's mind, given how he is misleading the Russian people, day by day, with Russian state TV, and what he says about this.
What's it like to meet with him? What were those like for you?
J. SULLIVAN: Well, it was a -- it was surreal, of course. He launched a war. But they call it a special military operation. They disguise. They won't disclose to the Russian people the true extent of their casualties. And it's a feature of the Russian system.
Truth is something that is to be twisted and made-up, if necessary, to serve the interests of the state. And it's a feature of the system that goes back to Soviet days. And it's something that Putin uses, to try to A, remain in power, and keep the special military operation going forward.
Because, as you say, I -- as I write in my book, there is no off-ramp for Putin. He has war aims that he wants to accomplish. And he's not going to compromise them.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, and looking at his relationship, and just Russia on the world stage. Right now, in the Middle East, we're waiting to see if Iran or Hezbollah, for that point, could launch an attack on Israel, any day, in retaliation for the killings of a top Hamas leader, a top Hezbollah commander.
[21:50:00]
We have seen how the Russian-Iranian relationship has shifted, in the last year, the last two years. How influential do you think Putin is, in a situation, like what we're watching and waiting to happen in the Middle East, right now?
J. SULLIVAN: Well, he can certainly have input and have an effect.
I'm not sure he's able to control things, the main -- the way maybe Soviet leaders were, were certain of their client states. There isn't the same relationship -- there isn't the same relationship that there was with certain countries in the Middle East during the Soviet era.
So, I'm not suggesting that Putin can control what Tehran chooses to do. But he can certainly and is supporting Tehran. And Tehran is supporting Russia in its war in Ukraine. So there are mutual benefits.
And he can influence events. And we saw his -- the Secretary of his Security Council, the former Minister of Defense, Shoigu, visit Tehran, recently, after the assassination in Tehran, I'm sure, to discuss what Iran's response is going to be.
COLLINS: Ambassador John Sullivan, the book is "Midnight in Moscow." It is incredibly timely, for this time, right now. Thank you for coming on to talk about it.
J. SULLIVAN: My pleasure. Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next, here on THE SOURCE, we're going to have our very own Donie O'Sullivan, who takes a spin with one of America's most recognizable election-deniers, to find out why the lies have not gone away.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: CNN's Senior Correspondent, and friend of the show, Donie O'Sullivan, has been traveling the country, for a brand-new documentary that he's doing. It airs, right here, this Sunday, on CNN.
Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (on camera): How are you? My name is Donie O'Sullivan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Toni.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Donie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joni O'Sullivan?
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): No, not Joni, like Joni Mitchell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Toni?
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Donie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donie?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you an Irish boy?
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God bless you. So am I.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): As a journalist, I spend most of my time traveling across the country, talking to people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is go (bleep) yourself.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Right. And are you from Ohio?
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): About who they are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I committed to dress like a Crusader, maybe five, six years ago.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): And how they see the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you tell me you're going to release the Kraken, show me the freaking Kraken for crying out loud.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): JFK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senior.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senior.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): As Jesus reincarnated?
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): All while trying to keep an open mind.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Biden has never been inside the White House. They are at Tyler Perry Studios in Atlanta.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): As conspiracy theories hurt regular people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We -- we will get through this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's caused me to lose my son.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): And lies leads to violence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bringing live rounds, right now, and shooting people.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): I think we better move beyond this police line.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): In this land of misinformation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get that out of my face.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And Toni? Joni? Donie? Joins me now.
What is it? How do you say your name?
O'SULLIVAN: My mom calls me, Mistakes. So, you can--
COLLINS: Oh my god.
O'SULLIVAN: --they can call me -- they can call me whatever they want. It's OK.
COLLINS: You got a laugh from the crew for that.
All right. But in all honesty. That was funny. But you're really traveling the country, talking to these people. Some of them are dressed like Crusaders. What are they telling you?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. And look, obviously, that's a clip from the show on Sunday nights (ph). Some of it's a bit of fun.
But look, we really try and dig in here to the conspiracy theories, about the last election, which, we hear every day about the election lies and everything like that. But for a lot of people, for millions of people in this country, they are living this every single day.
The media they watch, the social media they consume, their former President is telling them that the election has been stolen. And that the only way Trump can lose the next election in November is that if it is stolen or the Democrats cheat. And we saw what happened last time, when people were told that.
COLLINS: And I was really touched by the woman who said, I lost my son over this. This is a -- it's a real thing that has split families, because a family member so fervently believes a complete lie about the election.
O'SULLIVAN: Absolutely. And look, it's, yes, we often talk a lot about the political side of this, political ramifications. But it really is something that is splitting up families.
And more and more, as I've spoken to family members, who've kind of basically lost loved ones to this world, people really don't know what to do, because you can't tell somebody what they're saying, straight up, as kind of stupid, or silly, or whatever, because you risk pushing that person further away, potentially pushing them further down the rabbit hole.
So, it's really, it is a bit of a -- it's, I mean, it's a huge issue in this country, right? And it's a huge issue that is happening in the -- up to the halls of Congress, to the kitchen table.
COLLINS: Well, and I think, when you -- when you see these people believe this, it's because people in power tell them that it's true.
O'SULLIVAN: Absolutely.
COLLINS: Or they're--
O'SULLIVAN: Look, I mean, I think if you -- if you are consuming this media race, all the time, and if you have somebody as powerful as Trump, who a lot of people idolize, telling you this over and over again? A lot of folks truly believe this stuff, right?
COLLINS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Like, we know, of course, and you know, there's a lot of people that know better, a lot of the people that are pushing this--
COLLINS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: --know that they're lying. They know the last election was not stolen.
But a lot of people truly believe this. And if you truly believe it, then it makes sense. It's almost a rational thing to go and do something like show up in the Capitol.
COLLINS: You spent a lot of time with Mike Lindell.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. The My Pillow Guy. And-- COLLINS: Who's bankrolling Rudy Giuliani's trips to the Republican convention.
O'SULLIVAN: That's true. You spotted him on -- you spotted him on.
COLLINS: How's that?
[22:00:00]
O'SULLIVAN: But, yes, look, Mike Lindell is obviously somebody we all know as My Pillow Guy. You might not have seen him on TV as much over the past few years. We actually got to visit his pillow factory there, in Minnesota. But look, he has not gone away. He has not stopped. He is part of this new universe.
COLLINS: Yes. I can't wait to watch this, especially, 90 days out from the election where people -- Trump's laying the groundwork, potentially for this to happen, again.
Donie O'Sullivan.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Great reporting as always. Cannot wait to watch.
This is an all-new episode of the "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER." It is one whole hour, one whole story. It will be this Sunday, 08:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only right here on CNN.
Thank you so much for joining me tonight. Have a great weekend.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts right now.
