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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump-Musk Interview Underway After Major Tech Problems; Sources: Suspected Iranian Hackers Breached Roger Stone's Personal Email As They Targeted Trump Campaign; Trump Seeks $100 Million In Damages From DOJ For Mar-A-Lago Search. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 12, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Remember Cassidy Hutchinson, the former White House aide. Well she testified, before the January 6 committee, under oath, saying that Team Trump would arrange for their crowds to be in a long and narrow fashion, to make for better picture- taking.
She also testified that on January 6, when he gave his speech before the attack on the Capitol, the former President was very frustrated because the crowd was more spread out, and there were obstructions in the way that made photographing the crowd very difficult.
So, here you have these very pivotal days, Anderson. And the concern is about the crowd. It's truly remarkable.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Randi Kaye, thanks so much.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
X marks the spot of a technical disaster, apparently, for that much- hyped Trump "Interview" with Elon Musk, "Interview" in quotes. Things quickly went off the rails, tonight, as Trump is trying to seize back the momentum on the campaign trail.
And we also have breaking news about that alleged hack attack, targeting the Trump campaign. CNN can confirm it was Roger Stone, whose email was hacked, as the FBI is investigating suspected attempts, by Iran, to break into both campaigns.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
It happened again. And it may not have come at a worse time for Donald Trump. The sit-down that he built as all-caps, the interview of the century, a one-on-one with the X CEO, Elon Musk, was the interview that wasn't at first, and for a long while after that.
It was supposed to begin exactly an hour ago, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern. But when we, listeners, tuned in to hear that interview, between Elon Musk and Donald Trump, and instead heard this on a loop.
(VIDEO - TECH PROBLEMS DERAIL TRUMP-MUSK INTERVIEW)
COLLINS: Music going for about an hour. All we could see on Musk and Trump's feeds was this image, right here.
Musk is claiming it was a cyberattack. Though, I should note, this is just now happened, as we were coming on the air. We haven't seen any evidence of that.
It is another major failure, in the same vein as when Governor Ron DeSantis agreed to launch his presidential campaign, in the same format, in an interview with Musk, and had an almost identical technical meltdown.
When that happened, remember, Trump posted that the launch and DeSantis' campaign was a disaster.
Now, tonight, his conversation with Musk has finally and belatedly gotten underway. We are monitoring it all. Right now, Trump is talking about his attempted assassination, after vowing to not bring it up again, following his speech at the Republican convention.
I want to start this hour with some of our smartest minds to start us off.
We have Aisha Mills at the table, a Democratic strategist, who has advised more than a dozen members of Congress.
David Polyansky worked on five Republican presidential campaigns, including Ron DeSantis'.
Also, New York Times National Political Reporter, Astead Herndon.
And veteran media reporter, Brian Stelter, the Author of "Network of Lies."
Brian, I mean, this was kind of a big moment, not just for Donald Trump, but also for Elon Musk--
BRIAN STELTER, AUTHOR, "NETWORK OF LIES": For sure.
COLLINS: --on Twitter, as I still call it.
STELTER: This is why I love good old-fashioned television. It just works, you know?
COLLINS: Don't curse us.
STELTER: Everything actually works.
This actually does show that streaming can struggle, especially when someone like Musk fired most of the technical staffers, at the company formerly known as Twitter. He kind of had this coming.
Musk says he had been testing the servers ahead of time, trying to make sure this would work. We'll find out later, what actually went wrong here.
But it is embarrassing for Trump, because every day he's been attempting a reset, lately, to try to take on Harris.
COLLINS: Yes. And, I mean, this is truly what he made fun of Ron DeSantis for, which, as you would know well. I mean, it's kind of perfectly-timed that you're here.
But I was looking at what Trump said when this happened to Ron DeSantis. He said, Wow. The DeSanctus TWITTER launch is a DISASTER. His whole campaign will be a disaster.
I mean, can you hear the laughs from the Governor's Mansion, in Florida, tonight?
DAVID POLYANSKY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I don't remember any of that, Kaitlan.
Look, I mean, obviously, I'm sure everybody involved wished it went better tonight.
But I think this is a symptom of a larger issue, right now, which is, for the first time in his adult political career, Donald Trump's struggling to get earned media attention. And we have not seen that. There have been days. But since 2015, they've been days and hours, not weeks on end.
STELTER: Yes.
POLYANSKY: And so, I think that's what you're seeing, him reach out, doing press conferences, going to journalist panels, and now doing events like this, because he is looking for ways to reach people, and frankly, have us here tonight talking, even if it's a bad Twitter event, or a delayed one, it's better than a night of Kamala Harris is on the rise and succeeding.
COLLINS: Well--
POLYANSKY: And that's what he has to do.
COLLINS: And her campaign is on Truth Social, reposting Trump's truths about his interview. I mean, they are like, really trying to troll him with this moment, here.
AISHA MILLS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: They are trolling him.
I mean, here's the thing, too. Trump is still running a playbook that is quite old and stale, frankly, in this political environment, trying to go after earned media as if it's the be all, end all, as opposed to actually campaigning.
[21:05:00]
Kamala Harris has been making waves, through really critical swing states, and actually on the ground, gathering crowds, talking to people, building up the base of the Democratic Party, who is going to come out and vote for her.
Donald Trump is sitting at Mar-a-Lago, most of the time, and sitting on X or Truth Social or wherever, spouting nasties, as opposed to going out and trying to reach people. And if he thinks that earned media is the only way to get votes, he's going to have a real reckoning.
Because Kamala Harris is actually going to win through the culture, and going directly to the people.
COLLINS: Well, and I think when you look at what his strategy is. And Astead, I'm curious what you're hearing from sources. I mean, Trump was back on Twitter today. He has not been on Twitter, since he was banned. Musk obviously bought the website, reinstated him. He posted his mug shot, when he was indicted in Georgia, last year.
ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes.
COLLINS: But until then, he had not been posting, until today, really trying to hype this conversation, and to take back the headlines.
HERNDON: I think it's indicative of a campaign that continues to try to search these moments, to flip the narrative.
Donald Trump is returning to Twitter, not because that's the biggest audience in the world. But he knows media is there. He knows a lot of news-makers and decision-makers that functions as a water cooler of sorts. And he wants to get his name back into the conversation.
But to your point, the problem for Donald Trump is he's basically been chilling for a year or so, right? He hasn't been on the campaign trail in a big way. The legal problems kind of hid some of that. And most importantly, he had an opponent, who was not doing much of that campaigning himself.
The second that changed, this campaign has been exposed for one, that does not have the kind of offensive ability that I think some people thought they did.
I mean, I think we looked at a race for a last year and a half that was stale, and it kind of presented Donald Trump as maybe a more imposing political figure than he was. But he continues to be at the same vote share he was a month ago.
STELTER: Right.
HERNDON: Even before the RNC. Even before the assassination attempts.
MILLS: Right.
HERNDON: That's indicative of a campaign that has reached a ceiling of voters, and needs to try new things to win people over. And so far, it's not that they're not trying it. It's that it's not working.
MILLS: And they also do not have the campaign apparatus, to meet people, where they are.
The awesome thing about the Harris campaign, which started with the Biden campaign, is that the Democrats have been building infrastructure, in the states, for quite some time.
So, whether it's Nevada or Arizona or Michigan, et cetera, et cetera, Pennsylvania, they have campaign offices and operatives all throughout those states that were ready as soon as the enthusiasm in the moment hit, when Harris became the candidate, to funnel all of the volunteers, who were reaching out, into some kind of mechanism to participate in the campaign.
The Trump campaign clearly has none of that. They have no real ground game to get people out. And so, he thought that he was going to win by just yelling nasties, through earned media. And now they're realizing--
COLLINS: Well--
MILLS: --that they're really at a loss because they don't have the same kind of infrastructure.
COLLINS: And I think that the Trump campaign would argue about what their ground game is looking like, saying, they separate the political apparatus from the undisciplined candidate himself. And part of what's been driving him crazy are her crowd sizes.
POLYANSKY: Yes.
COLLINS: And seeing someone else getting crowd sizes that he used to see to where now he's not only lying about his own crowd sizes, he's saying that hers are AI-generated.
MILLS: Oh god.
STELTER: And I think he does this when he's feeling the most vulnerable, the most insecure.
I went back, a piece for The Atlantic today, about all the times that he's talked about crowd size, since the inauguration. And it's not just that he promotes his own crowd size. He also minimizes others', right?
When Black Lives Matter protesters were in Washington, he pretended like there was a small crowd, when it was a big crowd.
When protesters -- sorry, when his supporters were not showing up to his hush money trial, he pretended like it was impossible to get into the courtroom area, to get it onto the courthouse, when, in fact, there -- it was very easy to attend.
He's always doing this when he feels insecure. And I think, to his defense, he has multiple reasons to be rattled, right now. The assassination attempt, the idea that someone tried to kill him. The idea that now he's up against a woman of color, and doesn't know how to react. The idea that she's getting bigger, bigger crowds. Those are three huge reasons why he could be rattled right now.
POLYANSKY: And let's be clear. He had this race won, when he was in Milwaukee. I'm sorry. But Joe Biden wasn't going to win this race. He knew he had won the race. And what a shift, just days later. That's pretty -- that's a fundamental psychological shift, a political shift.
HERNDON: Yes.
POLYANSKY: And, frankly, a narrative shift.
STELTER: Right.
POLYANSKY: And that's--
STELTER: Psychologically, huge reasons to be rattled--
POLYANSKY: Huge.
STELTER: --compared to a few weeks ago.
COLLINS: Well, and if you are advising his campaign, what would you say to him, tonight?
POLYANSKY: Look, I mean, at the end of the day, this is always going to be a close race, unless Joe Biden was their nominee. He's not.
And this has all come back to equilibrium, here. You're going to see a very close contest. And I think that's why those field offices will matter in states like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, because you're going to see a race that's going to go back to the mean.
The country is almost evenly divided here. What you have to do is focus on the issues. And you get a head-start with her. She's three weeks into a presidential campaign. You actually have the chance to go out and define her, and get ahead of her on these issues, like tax- free issues for workers in Pennsylvania. And frankly, get ahead of her on electric vehicle mandates in Pennsylvania. Do that instead of focusing on crowd size and other issues.
COLLINS: Yes. The tax-free tips, which she came out, in support of--
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: --over the weekend, which as Trump then came out and said, well, I supported this first.
[21:10:00]
I mean, Astead, you have covered Harris, since long before she was the top of the ticket. And what do you make of, of what you're seeing of how she has been outworking Trump, in the sense of being out on the field -- in the field more. Neither of them were on the campaign trail today. But last week, just looking at it alone.
I was asking a lot of Republicans, and Trump allies, where he was. And they had the same questions. HERNDON: Yes. I mean, I think that is -- the contrast is becoming very clear. And to be honest, these are muscles that Harris has worked kind of quietly, over the last couple years or so.
She, after kind of shirking back, for the first year and a half, in office, made a very concerted effort, to go out into places, and work on those kind of campaign retail skills, and kind of develop a, I think, a muscle that wasn't clearly there, when she was running for president, last.
And so, I think she is prepared for this moment, even if the issues has gotten closer to her. I would say, the Dobbs decision kind of clarified a message that wasn't necessarily there, and repaired some relationships with progressive groups, that were somewhat distrustful after the presidential campaign.
But I think really, there is an inflection of energy that is coming from something bigger than the candidate herself. I think this is about a moment, in which a lot of people in the country thought they were heading to a presidential election they did not want.
STELTER: Right.
HERNDON: And so, the exit route that has appeared, frankly, out of nowhere--
STELTER: Right.
HERNDON: --I think--
STELTER: Right.
HERNDON: --is providing a groundswell of support for her that she's currently riding. The DNC will further that.
But I think the September 10th debate, there are times that Trump can reset this race. But for right now, I think it's going to be hard for some of these messages to break through, simply because the country is exhaling, in my opinion, from--
STELTER: Yes. And it's not just about Trump
HERNDON: Yes. From a larger political dysfunction.
STELTER: Yes.
HERNDON: That, I think, was--
STELTER: Yes.
HERNDON: --that was at the core of a lot of the last few weeks--
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: It's about the American gerontocracy.
HERNDON: Yes.
STELTER: Americans were not just tired of the Trump years. They were tired of being governed by this elderly White male class. It's about the exit ramp, you describe is about so much more than just Trump.
COLLINS: Well, and when you see that and you're trying to capitalize that -- on that as the Harris campaign. I mean, what we're hearing from Republicans is saying, please be more disciplined, in your messaging, and how you're approaching her, and stop going after her.
STELTER: Are they really still saying?
COLLINS: Well let--
STELTER: Are they even still trying?
COLLINS: I actually put together--
STELTER: It's 2024.
COLLINS: I'm so glad you asked that, Brian, because I actually put together--
POLYANSKY: Yes. That's a great segue.
COLLINS: --I actually put together a mashup for you of what exactly they are saying, through the TV screens to Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R) FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: You've got to make this race not on personalities. Stop questioning the size of her crowds, and start questioning her position.
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER TRUMP WH ADVISER: When Trump attacks Harris personally, rather than on policy, Harris' support among swing voters rises.
LARRY KUDLOW, FORMER TRUMP WH ADVISER: Don't wander off, don't call her stupid and all kinds of names. Stay on message.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, FORMER COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If President Trump would just contrast the policies, he'll win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STELTER: Aww.
COLLINS: I mean, the call is coming from inside the house.
POLYANSKY: Yes.
MILLS: And let's all be clear, though, that the policies actually don't win the majority of Americans. Because Project 2025 is a real conversation about the regressiveness that the Republican Party wants to impose on the rest of America, and to literally take us backwards.
And so, in those conversations, if he were to actually ride the wave of whatever the policy agenda is intended to be, that's not going to be a winning strategy either, given that the majority of the people, who are going to show up and vote, including the swing voters, are tired of going backwards, and want to go forward. And we can call that progress. We can call that whatever we want.
But the idea that we're going to have this awful, oppressive agenda that tries to put women back into the kitchen, that tries to get rid of public education, that really squanders the livelihood of everybody, except for frankly, White men, is not a winning policy agenda either. So, I don't think that the Republicans have anywhere to go on this.
COLLINS: Your response?
POLYANSKY: Focus on the economy. Focus on immigration. And even paint a contrast on foreign policy.
Because whether you like them or not, the world was a different, calmer place when Donald Trump was president, than it is today. And that chaos of the last four years is what he has to paint a contrast with. And if he does it, it's going to be a very close and tight race. I think you're seeing others say that.
COLLINS: Let us know what Ron DeSantis says about the advantage (ph) tonight. I'll be very curious.
David Polyansky. Aisha Mills. Astead Herndon. Brian Stelter. Thank you all.
Meantime, the FBI is now confirming it is investigating potential 2024 election meddling. The Trump campaign says they were hacked by Iran. The former Chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Adam Schiff, will join me next.
As we're also seeing a new twist, tonight, in the Trump classified documents drama, as he is seeking a $100 million for the FBI's search of Mar-a-Lago. Elie Honig will join us about whether or not he's actually going to get it.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have more breaking news tonight, as several sources tell CNN that federal investigators believe Iranian hackers have breached long-time ally, Roger Stone's personal email account, as they targeted Donald Trump's campaign. A source telling us that the hackers used access to Stone's personal email, to try to break into the account of a senior Trump campaign official. That's not all. We've also learned the FBI briefed what was then the Biden-Harris campaign, back in June, about Iranian efforts to target them and their campaign.
Trump's campaign first blamed Iran for a hack, over the weekend. They pointed to a report that was released by Microsoft, on Friday, detailing meddling efforts by foreign powers, in the U.S. election.
Politico, The Washington Post, The New York Times, multiple outlets, all say they received emails, from an account, sharing documents from inside Trump's campaign operation.
And my source, tonight, is the former Chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Adam Schiff of California, who is currently running for a Senate seat in that state.
Congressman, it's great to have you.
[21:20:00]
Because this is not the first time that other countries have tried to interfere, with U.S. elections. Obviously, we are all well-aware of Russia's actions in 2016.
But first, just on this reporting, what do you make of this and Iran's alleged involvement?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Well, I think Iran has sort of followed the example set by Russia, in using spear phishing attacks, which are unsophisticated, but often very successful, to gain access to private information that's held by presidential campaigns. They are also pushing out phony news sources, news sites. They're trying to exploit issues that divide Americans.
These are the same objectives we saw with Russia, in 2016, that is, interfere with one of the campaigns, but also just sow greater division, cause greater concern and discomfort with the conduct of elections, question about the conduct of elections in the United States, anything to essentially denigrate our democracy.
COLLINS: Well, and this time, it's both campaigns allegedly being targeted here. I mean, what are the next steps for the FBI? What do you want to see from them?
SCHIFF: Well, I want to see the FBI and the intelligence community do a vigorous investigation, as to who are behind these hacks, who is behind this influence operation, and provide as much of that information to the public without compromising sources and methods, and do it in a timely way.
The big mistake, I think, that was made in 2016, is it took a long time, for the then-Obama administration, and intelligence community, to speak out about what we were seeing, of Russian interference in the election. I think the community needs to level with the American people. Whichever way those types of interference cut politically, just speak the facts plainly, put them out there for the public. Let the public draw their own conclusions.
And in terms of the media role, as I argued in 2016, I'm not saying that hack materials are never newsworthy. But whenever they're discussed, it's important to set out what's the provenance of these materials. Where did they come from? Why are we seeing them? What motivation might a foreign government have, for making this information available by stealing it? So, that's really important context that was often missing in 2016.
COLLINS: Yes, obviously the context here, how outlets are getting this, and what that looks like.
Part of the irony in this is that Roger Stone is apparently of -- who famously, in 2016 -- 2015, said it was soon going to be John Podesta's time in the barrel. Obviously, it was Podesta's private email that was compromised in 2016, via the very phishing emails that you're talking about here. Now, he's allegedly involved in this.
Trump ended up pardoning Roger Stone, after he was convicted of lying, about his attempts to get Hillary Clinton's private emails from WikiLeaks.
I just wonder, when you look at the details of this, what you make of that in particular.
SCHIFF: Well, there's certainly an irony here, and there's also hypocrisy involved, when you hear the Trump campaign -- when you hear the Trump campaign basically telling the media, don't publish any of this, that would be wrong.
When, of course, Donald Trump was inviting hackers to publish, through outlets like WikiLeaks and Guccifer 2.0, and celebrating at every campaign stop, these stolen documents. So, no small measure of hypocrisy here by the Trump campaign.
But look, both campaigns, both parties, need to condemn any foreign interference, no matter how it cuts. This has no place in our politics. Americans get to decide American elections. So, we need to be united on this, in a way that we weren't in 2016.
And a big part of the problem in 2016 is you have one of the presidential candidates, in Donald Trump, welcoming foreign interference, asking for it, accepting it, exploiting it, lying about it. We can't make that mistake again.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, everyone remembers, when Trump said, Russia, if you're listening.
Given what you just said, though. We saw the White House come out and condemn this today. Obviously, the Trump campaign has urged people not to use and share this material. Do you want to see the Harris campaign also come out and condemn this?
SCHIFF: Well, the administration of which the Vice President is very much a part, has condemned it. And I haven't seen what statements have come out of the campaign's side of things. But look, I think all of us ought to condemn any kind of foreign interference. It's not just Iran. We're seeing the Russians back at it again. We're seeing China with its own influence operations.
It should be the very basic minimum in the American political process that both parties, from top to bottom, decry these foreign efforts.
[21:25:00]
We don't want foreign adversarial powers to become some kind of a Super PAC that is running independent expenditure campaigns on behalf or against one candidate or the other, through troll farms or fake news sites or spear phishing attack, hacking and dumping operations. None of that should be condoned or exploited by any of the campaigns.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, and this stood out to me, as we've been hearing from the Trump campaign on this, after Microsoft, of course, came out with it on -- with their own report on this, on Friday. The Washington Post says the Trump campaign didn't tell the FBI, at least initially, because of mistrust that they have. Obviously, we know very well Donald Trump himself in the FBI.
And I just wonder, given your prominent voice, in 2016, talking about collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. When you look at this big picture, and that concern that you just said, everyone should have, about attempts by foreign governments, or by foreign entities, to influence our elections, are you worried that there's people out there, who don't take what the FBI says seriously, or don't take them conducting an investigation into this seriously, to the point where the Trump campaign was hesitant to even go to the FBI at first.
SCHIFF: First of all, I wouldn't credit the Trump campaign's explanation for why they haven't notified or didn't notify the FBI. The FBI, I think, is one of the most incredible investigative agencies in the United States. They do incredible work.
The Trump campaign may have been embarrassed that their cyber defenses weren't sufficient to stop it. Sometimes, the victims of cyberattacks don't want to admit that they've been hacked. They don't want to admit it to their customers. They don't want to admit it to the public. And for a presidential campaign, there are lots of reasons why they may not want to bring in law enforcement.
But I think we do need to be transparent about this. The country has a right to know if foreign powers are trying to interfere. And the FBI, law enforcement, and the intelligence community, need to be aware of different hacking groups, and what they're doing. And if campaign sees this, spots this, it might help prevent others from being the victim of similar attacks.
COLLINS: How worried are you about what the next 90 days are going to look like, when it comes to what we're talking about, right now?
SCHIFF: Well, I am concerned about it, because, on the one hand, we are certainly better forewarned than we were in 2016. We're better- prepared. And yet, at the same time, there has been such a politicization, by Trump and sort of his MAGA enablers, such a politicization of the FBI, and the intelligence community, that they will seek to discredit anything that goes on, that they think is unhelpful to them. And if past is prologue, Trump will seek to exploit any foreign interference, if it's beneficial to him. So, in that respect, we are not better- prepared. I am concerned about it.
But what concerns me the most, frankly, has nothing to do with foreign powers. It has to do with domestic actors, who are trying to seed local elections boards and other officials with such rabid partisans that they will declare the loser the winner if their side doesn't win.
COLLINS: Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you for your time tonight.
SCHIFF: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next, we're going to take a closer look at where this race stands, right now. The new numbers that have Trump on a tear about polling that he says they are fake. We'll go inside the real numbers with Harry Enten, right after this.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we're seeing hard evidence of just what a reset this race for the White House really is. New polling out of battlegrounds, which are the states, of course, that will decide the 2024 election, show that it's a clear toss-up.
Look at these numbers. Vice President Harris at 50 percent, former President Donald Trump at 46 percent, in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. We saw Harris visit every one of those states, last week, with her new running mate in tow, Governor Tim Walz.
And as Harris is gaining in those key states, and outworking her political opponent, at least for the time being, Donald Trump has been going off on social media, posting on his website, Truth Social, that fake polls are changing their methods and standards, and that's why we're seeing the numbers that we are. He also suggested that the polling is, quote, "Highly inaccurate."
Want to go inside the numbers with my source for all things polling, with CNN's Harry Enten.
Obviously, Harry, that was a message we were hearing--
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes.
COLLINS: --from other people, a few weeks ago. But it is clear--
ENTEN: Yes.
COLLINS: --that when you look at how this race has changed--
ENTEN: Absolutely.
COLLINS: --there is movement in the battleground states.
ENTEN: There is absolutely movement. You mentioned Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. You mentioned The New York Times.
Look, take an aggregate of those polls that right now show Kamala Harris up four though, within the margin of error. Compare that to where we were in the springtime when the matchup was Biden versus Trump. Trump was actually leading on average, by a point in those states. We're seeing a five-point movement, at least in The New York Times poll.
But it's not just The New York Times polling. You look at the Ipsos polling as well from those same three states. What do you see? In the spring, you saw that Trump was up by two against Joe Biden. Now, you're seeing Harris up by two. So, we're seeing that four to five point movement in two pollsters. So, it's not just one pollster showing it. It's multiple pollsters showing it, and multiple pollsters showing that type of movement.
COLLINS: So, the one thing that Trump and his campaign had made clear they wanted to run on, economy and the immigration. What do those numbers look like now that it's not Biden and Trump in a head-to-head matchup, on who voters like on those issues?
[21:35:00]
ENTEN: Look, they still prefer Donald Trump to Kamala Harris, the Democratic nominee -- presumptive Democratic nominee, on those issues. But the lead has shrunk, right? It shrunk.
In The New York Times poll, for example, Donald Trump was up by 14 points, in the springtime, over Joe Biden, who is more trusted in the economy. Now that lead is down to six points. And immigration, the lead is single digits as well.
And so, this is what we're seeing across the board. That is advantages that for -- were for Donald Trump have either gone over to Harris, or those advantages have shrunk, as Harris has been able to climb out of the hole that Joe Biden dug for himself.
COLLINS: Yes. And so, as we've been watching on the campaign trail, Harris and Walz were out there a lot, last week.
Trump was in Montana for an important Senate seat, but he was mostly at Mar-a-Lago.
And so, when you look at what voters are actually seeing out, on the ground, what they're saying. The thing that we've been hearing is Tim Walz leading the charge, calling Trump and Vance, weird. And that's been this thing. Vance was asked about it by Dana Bash, yesterday, and he was saying, that they were projecting.
Is it sticking with voters? Or is it kind of something that just we are talking about? How do voters see it? ENTEN: Yes, I'm not the puppet, you're the puppet, right? That's what Donald Trump is trying to argue.
But there was this fascinating poll question that was asked by Ipsos. Essentially, who would -- who does "Weird" better describe? Either Kamala Harris or Donald Trump? And unfortunately, for the Republican nominee, more voters said it better describe Donald Trump than Kamala Harris, by a double-digit margin.
And that, of course, just goes along with what we've been seeing in the Google searches, which is weird has been climbing, and it's been associated with the Republican vice presidential nominee, the Republican Party, and the Make America Great Again movement. It is an attack that -- a rare attack that actually seems to be sticking, and has truly entered the zeitgeist.
COLLINS: So it's working?
ENTEN: It's working. There is no doubt that it is working. And the way you know it's working is because J.D. Vance and Donald Trump continue to try deflecting it. They bring it up. They try and say that the Democratic ticket is weird.
And the fact is, as they -- Donald Trump does not like getting called anything that's negative, and he especially doesn't like being called weird.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, and the other part of this is that Harris has not done a major interview yet or a press conference. She's taking questions outside of Air Force Two. But this is something that we hear. I mean, Vance said it every -- every point he was asked yesterday, he kind of turned back to--
ENTEN: Yes.
COLLINS: --to her lack of an interview.
When it comes to what voters, how they view this, what do they -- what are they looking at going into the convention in terms of, of Harris' view, the fact that they haven't heard from her, specifically on immigration, on the economy, on these big issues?
ENTEN: Right. I mean, look, I think one of the advantages Kamala Harris has going for, at this particular point, is she can kind of be everything to everybody, because she hasn't been well-defined yet.
Interestingly enough, in those New York Times-Siena College polls, what we saw is, do you have a clear vision for America? We do see that more Americans, the clear majority, 60 percent say Trump. Fewer say that for Kamala Harris. But it's still 53 percent. It's still a majority. Despite the fact that she's only been on the campaign trail for a limited time.
So, this is an issue on which Donald Trump has an edge. It's something for Harris to work on. But it's not, perhaps the deep hole you might expect it to be. COLLINS: And you're not Daniel Dale. But on Trump's claim that pollsters are changing their methods?
ENTEN: This is complete garbage, all right? This is -- now you've gotten me angry here. You've gotten me angry. Jovial Harry has become Angry Harry. Because the fact is, Joe Biden complained about the polls that when they were bad for him. Now, Donald Trump is complaining about the polls when they're bad for him.
The pollsters haven't changed their methods. What has happened is the voters have changed their views.
COLLINS: Someone who tracks polling is sticking up for polling.
ENTEN: I stick up for polling. That's what I am. Harry Enten, a person who sticks up for polling.
COLLINS: And big polling. OK, Harry Enten, thank you for that.
Up next. Vladimir Putin is fuming tonight. He's lashing out at the West, because Ukrainian troops are gaining a foothold, a real one, inside of Russia. We'll show you the map, next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Russian President Putin is angry and promising to kick the enemy out, as Ukraine is pushing further into Russian territory.
Moscow has been scrambling, as Ukrainian military officials say that their troops have taken control of dozens of Russian villages, and large swaths of land. More than a 120,000 Russians have evacuated what is known as the Kursk border region.
A video that was geo-located by CNN over the weekend, that you're looking at now, shows Ukrainian soldiers taking down Russian flags, and instead raising Ukrainian ones.
Putin is directing a lot of his anger, at the West, tonight.
Joining me here, to discuss, former Trump National Security Adviser, and also the former U.N. Ambassador, John Bolton.
And Ambassador, you're hearing Putin tonight. We're watching his response, incredibly angry, in real-time, to this, laying the blame on the West, saying that the West is fighting us with the hands of the Ukrainians. He says, quote, the enemy will get the response that it deserves. Obviously, he's been arguing this is a proxy battle for -- since the invasion began.
I wonder what you make of, of what we're seeing Ukrainian troops do, and Putin's response tonight.
AMB. JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think the Ukrainians have won a real propaganda victory. I think this was obviously unexpected. They saw a hole, a defect, in Russian defenses inside Russia, probably because the positions were not heavily manned.
The Russians didn't expect a cross-border attack. They thought that the pressure the United States and other NATO members had put on Ukraine, not to attack in Russia, was going to continue. So, they were taken by surprise.
It's a blow to Putin's personal prestige. The Kursk area, obviously, where this massive tank battle was fought in World War II, a victory for the Soviet Union against Germany. So, it's the exact opposite.
[21:45:00]
But I also think here there's potential danger for Ukraine, if they try and hold the territory they've taken against what I think we can expect will be the best Russian counteroffensive they can -- they can muster, and are driven back. You could turn a victory into a defeat.
We don't know exactly where the troops came from that were used in this Ukrainian offensive. Maybe they were taken off the line in the Donbas. Maybe that exposes Ukraine there. So, there's a lot we don't know.
But there's no mistaking, this is a big hit for Putin and his advisers.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, because it seems really embarrassing.
And you're right, we don't know if Ukraine can hold this or what the next steps look like. But the fact that they were able to go into Russia and to take this region that people can see right here on this map. I mean, what do you make of how Putin was apparently caught off- guard by this?
BOLTON: Well, this is not the first time in this war.
After the early Russian advances, in 2022, in the first six months or so, the Ukrainians detected weakness in Russian positions, around the major Northeastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, and positions around that, near the Russian border.
And again, taking the Russians by surprise, they swept them away, pushed them out of Ukraine, back into Russia, and have basically kept them out since then, where the Russians responded by concentrating on southern Ukraine, and making advances there.
So, again, I think the Ukrainians, whether it's intelligence or Russian defectors, or whatever it may be, have caught the Russians unaware.
And that has to sting too. It's just interesting to watch how many hits the Russian military has taken here, how many failures they've had, how unable they seem to be, to live up to their reputation. So, all of this is bad for Putin and the Russians, no doubt about it. COLLINS: Yes. And just seeing how Russian state TV is, is talking about it, and the surprise and basically, inability to frame it in a way that's positive for them, is remarkable.
But Ambassador, as you and I are talking, right now, and as we covered at the top of the show, Trump is having this conversation with Elon Musk, that had some big technical delays, but now is underway. It kind of sounds a lot like what you hear from Trump, at a campaign rally. Not a ton surprising there.
But he did -- he did say something to Elon Musk. I want to read you the quote. It's Trump recounting a conversation he says he had with Vladimir Putin, and appears to be, in regard to invading Ukraine, going into Ukraine, something we knew Putin wanted to do.
Trump said, quote, I said to Putin, don't do it, Vladimir, and I told him things that what I would do. And he said, no way. And I said, way. Then Trump says it's the last time we had the conversation. He would have never done. I get along very well with him, and I hope to get along well with him again. It's a good thing, not a bad thing.
What do you make of one, just that story, but also Trump -- Trump's argue of how much influence he has on the Russian leader?
BOLTON: Well, I think Trump's making that up. He certainly didn't have that conversation with Putin, when I was in the White House. I don't believe he had it before then. I can't really speak to what came after.
But this is another case of Trump making things up that it's hard to prove or disprove. He can say he had some private conversation at a dinner, at a G20 meeting, or something like that.
I don't think it happened. And I don't think that there was really an occasion for Trump to have that conversation. But it fits the persona that Trump thinks he has.
I personally, having watched Trump and Putin together, on several occasions, having listened into their phone conversations, having myself met Putin, on any number of occasions, going back to October of 2001. I think that Putin essentially thinks that Trump is an easy mark. He doesn't respect him. But he understands that using flattery with Trump can get him a long way.
I think if Trump did put together the meeting he says he wants to have between Zelenskyy and Putin, in a room together, to solve the Ukraine crisis? I think Putin would take Trump to the cleaners, to Ukraine's detriment.
COLLINS: Well, and I mean, it's an incredibly serious conversation. And obviously, the Ukrainians are definitely (ph) involved. But just to hear him describing it as, I mean, it sounds like two high school girls. I told him things that what I would do, and he said, no way. And I said, way.
I mean, is that how world leaders talk-- BOLTON: Look, Trump--
COLLINS: --from your experience?
BOLTON: No, it's not even how Donald Trump talks. It's how he wished he talked, and how he wished he could show that he's the big alpha guy.
But this is -- this is imagination on Trump's part. And it shows he really doesn't understand what's at stake here. He knows very little history. He certainly knows next to nothing, about the history of Ukraine and Russia, which is deeply complicated, even for experts.
[21:50:00]
So, to me, the way he recounts these conversations is one more demonstration that he's just not fit to be president.
COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for joining us.
BOLTON: Glad to be with you.
COLLINS: Up next. Trump, as we know, held on to boxes and boxes of top secret documents. Now he wants the Justice Department to pay him $100 million, for coming to take them back. Whether or not he has a case, we'll discuss with Elie Honig, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, Donald Trump is waging a rather curious new battle with the Justice Department, seeking a $100 million for alleged damages, from when the FBI searched Mar-a-Lago, executed that search warrant, two summers ago. Trump claims, tonight, that the search for classified documents was inappropriate, and hurt his reputation.
Even though, of course, as we know, the federal government had been trying, in vain, for months, to get the former President to voluntarily turn over all of those documents. Hence, the search that was carried out. It was a search, of course, that found hundreds of classified documents in unsecure places like a Mar-a-Lago ballroom and a bathroom.
I want to talk about this tonight with Elie Honig, our Senior Legal Analyst here at CNN.
And Errol Louis, CNN's Political Commentator, and also a host on Spectrum News.
Elie, does this have any merit?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: No. This has no chance whatsoever. This is a political stunt masquerading as the beginning of a lawsuit.
Let me just give you a couple problems.
First of all, immunity, all right? It is really hard to sue a federal agency or a federal official. Now, Trump is the beneficiary of immunity, in his criminal case. But here, immunity is going to be a big problem for him in suing.
The other thing is, he's got nothing. This search had more than enough probable cause. A federal judge signed off.
And I'll give you a couple quick examples from the actual filing that are so ridiculous.
First of all, he claims that he would have turned over the documents if he was just asked nicely. And you know what he cites to support that? His own Truth Social, and says, See? I would have done it.
The other thing is, he says, well, the law says that the FBI has to ask for permission, before they do a search warrant. I mean, that's as ridiculous as it sounds. The reason you do a search warrant is because you don't trust the person. You--
COLLINS: Yes, I think if you ask for permission, it would defeat the purpose of a search.
HONIG: It's kind of self-defeating, yes. So, he's got nothing here.
COLLINS: OK. But so, if he -- if it's a totally meritless claim that he's trying to take, not actually suing the Justice Department. I mean, clearly he does see political advantage in touting these images. I mean, he had an ad today that he -- when he returned to Twitter, was posting this, showing this.
Just a little bit of what was in that ad today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI has executed an unprecedented search warrant at President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The former President has both sides of the political aisle up in arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a dangerous and unstable moment in American history.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Justice Department has just indicted former President Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, that's his ad.
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST, "THE BIG DEAL WITH ERROL LOUIS" ON SPECTRUM NEWS: Yes. Yes.
COLLINS: But clearly, he thinks this benefits him, even though this case has been dismissed.
LOUIS: Well, they've been selling a lot of swag about him being indicted, and being convicted, and so forth and so on. And it certainly fits into it.
This is legally meritless, politically somewhat useful, though. 85 days until Election Day, it will give him a couple of talking points. It will give him something to say, in the debate, when he finally has to confront the questions about whether or not he actually likes to follow the law.
And he'll be able to say it was completely meritless, and in fact, I intend to get a $100 million. And it'll be struck down. It'll be thrown out of court. It'll be dead. But it'll serve the purpose that he needs it to serve. And it's a permissible, disreputable way of using the courts, to achieve a non-legal end.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, and when you look at all of this, in the grand scheme of how he's using this still, even though this case is not going anywhere. Jack Smith is going to -- is appealing it. But we'll see. It's not going anywhere before the election.
Trump is going to remind voters, ostensibly, of his legal troubles, because he has a sentencing, here in New York, next month.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: For the hush money case.
HONIG: If Donald Trump enjoys being in criminal court, good news, right? He's five weeks away from a sentencing.
I'm so interested as to how this is going to play politically.
COLLINS: I mean, what is Judge Merchan going to do?
HONIG: I don't know. Look, I am legit 50-50 on whether he's -- the big question is, is he going to give him prison or no prison.
And on the one hand, I can see if he gives him no prison, Trump will say, what a joke this whole case was?
But on the other hand. I guess interested what you think of this, Errol. If Judge Merchan actually says you're going to prison? He's not going to go to prison on September 18th. It'll be pushed off till after the appeal.
COLLINS: Sure.
HONIG: But could that activate and motivate Trump's base to say, wow, they're actually going to lock him up?
LOUIS: Oh, sure. Well, I mean, but I believe that's where they are now. I mean, I watched every minute of that Republican National Convention, and they have absolutely convinced themselves, saying, first they tried to impeach him, and then they tried to indict him, and then they convicted him, and then they tried to assassinate.
HONIG: Right.
LOUIS: It's just this continuum of anything bad that happens to Donald Trump is somebody else's fault, is nefarious, and is more reason to support him. That's where his base is coming from.
That is him sort of getting one more round of contributions, from these folks. Anything bad that happens to him, definitely not his fault. A reason for his followers to click on something, and send him another 24 bucks.
COLLINS: It's always a, they.
LOUIS: Yes.
COLLINS: They did this.
HONIG: Who's the they?
LOUIS: And you ask them -- the they--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: An ill-defined they.
LOUIS: And the answer's always, they know who they are.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Errol Louis. Elie Honig. Great to have you both here. Thank you so much.
[22:00:00]
A quick note before we go. You can see me on TV, again later tonight, if you didn't get enough, during THE SOURCE here. I was on "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert." It has been on hiatus for the last two weeks. So, there's a little bit of news to talk about. So, make sure you watch that. It's great to have Stephen Colbert. Great to do the show with him.
Thank you so much, for joining us, here tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
