Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Father Of Alleged Georgia School Shooter Charged; Trump Jan. 6 Case Evidence Could Be Released Before Election; Netanyahu: There's Not A Ceasefire & Hostage Deal In The Making. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 05, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The investigation didn't end. I mean, they were so convinced that something happened in that house that the police, within an hour after Mr. Perez was released from the hospital, they went to a court, and got a warrant, put a tracker on his vehicle, on his car.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: But his father was alive.
PROKUPECZ: His father was alive. But they were, for whatever reason, they were so convinced that something happened, and they didn't give up for weeks. They kept investigating him.
It's pretty crazy, right, Anderson?
COOPER: Yes.
PROKUPECZ: I mean, incredible story.
COOPER: Yes. Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
That's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Breaking news from THE SOURCE tonight.
The father of the 14-year-old accused of shooting up his school has just been arrested, tonight, now facing multiple charges, including second degree murder.
And CNN has learned that father telling investigators he bought that gun for his son as a holiday present (ph), which would make the purchase just months after authorities contacted the family, while investigating school shooting threats.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Authorities, in Georgia, tonight, wasting no time, because just a day after that mass shooting, at Apalachee High School, in Winder, Georgia, the father of the 14-year-old suspect is now facing charges of his own.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HOSEY, DIRECTOR, GEORGIA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: He is charged with the following: Four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Two counts of second degree murder. And eight counts of cruelty to children.
Mr. Gray -- these charges stem from Mr. Gray knowingly allowing his son, Colt, to possess a weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Our law enforcement team, tonight, confirms this is just the second time a parent of an accused school shooter has been charged, in relation to the crime.
The first, of course, the parents of the Michigan school shooter, in 2021, Ethan Crumbley's parents were convicted of involuntary manslaughter, and both sentenced to a decade in prison. Remember, the judge, in that case, lamented about the warning signs, and the missed opportunities they had, to prevent what their son did.
And a reminder of just how young the gunman, the accused gunman, in this shooting, is, look at him here. The Barrow County Sheriff's Office, today, released his booking photo.
Colt Gray is now facing four counts of felony murder, tonight. We're expecting his initial court appearance to happen, tomorrow morning. And authorities say that while being questioned, he told investigators, quote, "I did it."
CNN's Ryan Young is on the ground, in Winder, Georgia.
We just got an update from officials, Ryan. What more are you learning on the ground about the remarkable news, tonight, that the father has now been arrested as well?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. Kaitlan, look, we've worked some of these stories before. I can tell you, investigators from the inside have been very angry about some of the details they've been able to discover, over the last few hours. They've been working this non-stop.
Look, we reported earlier that in a nearby county, Jackson County, that there was that report that happened, and investigators stopped by. At that point, Colin Gray, the father, indicated to investigators, yes, there were guns inside the house, but there was no unsupervised access to those guns.
It's after that, that investigators tell us, that, apparently, for a holiday gift, this gun was purchased. And it's an AR-platform style weapon that was apparently broken down into a backpack, and then brought into the school.
So, that is the big question now, because investigators are trying to figure out how did the gun make it into school. They're going through the video. They're searching exactly what happened. But I can tell you, they are so angry at the fact that this gun was only purchased just a few months ago.
Jackson County Schools was put on alert. But he transferred to the Barrow County School System. Then there's that whole mix-up where, in terms of how many days did he actually attend school? We do know, on Tuesday, he reported that he had anxiety, went to the counselor's office. And then, of course, a couple days later, that fatal shooting that happened that has left this community torn apart.
With all this happening, even right now, there are more than a dozen people standing, right behind me, at this memorial that has been gathering steam, throughout the day, because people have been arriving here non-stop, and reflecting about how much they love this school, and this community. People were shocked that the arrest happened so quickly.
Now, what I want to tell you is, not only did the GBI not tell us, with the Sheriff, where was the father arrested?
We spent time outside the home, today, talked to neighbors. Neighbors said they had just moved in, recently, because we know he transferred schools. We're still trying to find out those details, And when he'll have his first court appearance, is something that we're still tracking at this very hour.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes. And it was good to hear from officials. They do believe all the victims, who are in the hospital, who are wounded, are expected to make a recovery.
YOUNG: Of course.
COLLINS: Some of them already released.
Ryan Young, keep us updated with what you're hearing on the ground.
YOUNG: Sure.
COLLINS: For more, on this arrest, tonight. Joining me is the former Deputy Director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe.
And CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller.
[21:05:00]
And John, when you look at how quickly this happened, tonight, this came out. And we -- it came out right before we heard from officials. They came out, they said the father knowingly allowed his son to possess this weapon. He said they had probable cause. What could that look like?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: That could look like a couple of things, which is one, an interview with the father, where he -- where he, we are told, by our sources, disclosed to them that he bought this gun, that he made it a gift. And it is likely in that conversation that they pressed him on what were the conditions of access to that gun.
But then there is the wild card, which we have less visibility into, which is the Sheriff told CNN today, told Isabel Rosales that when the 14-year-old suspect sat down, he started talking, was read his Miranda rights, and has continued talking.
So, we also have to assume that some of the information they had, about what level of access he had to it, how he got access to it, how he got access to ammunition and loaded it, likely came from him.
COLLINS: I mean, that speaks to the power of also having the son and the dad both -- to speak to them.
And Andrew, when you look at this, and you heard what investigators were saying, at that press conference, just a few moments ago. I mean, this is the only second time that we know of, where a parent has been arrested, in direct relation to a school shooting, carried out by their child.
What stood out to you, from what you heard from officials?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, it's an incredible story that we've learned throughout the course of the day today.
It certainly seems justified, right? I think anyone, who's been following the story, learning that the father basically armed the son, a few months ago, after receiving these concerns about alleged threats to the school, it's just absolutely horrifying.
But we have to remember that so far, with what little we know, about the information that police actually have, right now, it's hard to say whether or not this is a case that will stand up to the sort of legal scrutiny that we saw, in the Michigan case -- the Michigan case against the Crumbleys.
You'll remember, Kaitlan, in that case, you had a situation, very rare situation, where the parents knew two things, right before the shooting took place. One, that their son had a weapon they provided to him. And two, that he was experiencing this mental distress in school and having these very violent writings and comments in his notebook.
They were called into school, to address that. He actually had the gun in his backpack, during that meeting. So they knew that very close in time to when the shooting took place.
So far, we don't have that same sort of temporal connection that we know of yet, between what the father knew, in the days and hours leading up to the shooting. But I suspect that Georgia would not have indicted him unless they have, as John suggested, some pretty solid information.
COLLINS: Yes, it's a huge step by the Georgia Bureau of Investigations.
And John, we have this audio of when investigators went and spoke with the dad. This was 2023, when this student was still -- and the shooter was 13-years-old at the time. And there had been threats made online. They went to investigate it.
And this is what the dad said to them about weapons and the presence of them inside the house.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INVESTIGATOR: Do you have weapons in the house?
COLIN GRAY, FATHER OF THE APALACHEE HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING SUSPECT: I do.
INVESTIGATOR: Are they accessible to him?
GRAY: They are. I mean, there's nothing -- nothing loaded. But they are down. But -- we actually we do a lot of shooting, we do a lot of deer hunting. He shot his first deer this year, you know? So, like I'm pretty much in shock, to be honest with you.
INVESTIGATOR: Well.
GRAY: I'm a little pissed off, to be even really honest with you, if that -- if that is what was said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, that conversation happens. And seven months later, eight months later, he buys him an AR-15 for Christmas?
MILLER: Yes, so that is -- that is quite bizarre.
But if you look at the history here. Go back to the Newtown, Connecticut massacre of those little children in their first grade classrooms. This was a boy, who was going through, dealing with mental problems. His mother bought him that rifle, and they went shooting together. It was what they do to bond. And he took that, he killed her, and then killed those children.
Remember Newport News, Virginia, the first grader, a 7-year-old went in and shot his teacher with a pistol. That mom was charged for not safeguarding that gun in a way that he couldn't get to it.
So, this is going to become a recurring theme. And I believe that the charging of parents, with these extraordinarily serious charges? The convictions we saw with the Crumbley. The 21 months that the first grader's mom served for child endangerment. What we'll see in this case will start to send a warning to parents that this is not a joke about locking up these guns.
COLLINS: What are the gun storage laws in Georgia? They're lags (ph), if I recall, if--
[21:10:00]
MILLER: So, Georgia has very liberal gun laws. For instance, Kaitlan, possession of a rifle by a person under 18 is not particularly unlawful. Purchase of a rifle requires somebody to be 18, 21 for a handgun. But there's no permit process. And if they're at home, and their parents give them permission, if they're on a firing range, even handguns become legal.
So, it's a state where, as Andy pointed out, one of the challenges is going to -- going to get these charges to stick, by showing there was compelling reasons, to know that having access to that gun, by this kid, in his state of mind, was a clear and present danger.
COLLINS: Well, and Andrew McCabe, the dad, has been charged, tonight, with four counts of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree murder, and eight counts of cruelty to children.
Why is it only two counts of second degree murder, when obviously, as we know, there are four victims here?
MCCABE: Yes, that's a really good question, Kaitlan. I don't have the answer to that one off the top of my head. I'm not an expert on Georgia State law. But those charges all represent different approaches to holding him responsible for these deaths.
They are charges that would allow for the conviction of someone, holding somebody accountable for death, for less than what you see in a traditional homicide prosecution, like murder with malice aforethought. These are charges that open up the possibility of convicting someone for engaging in reckless conduct or criminally negligent conduct.
So, I'm not sure about why just those two. But certainly, you're seeing an array of charges here, to open the opportunity, to potentially get a conviction, based on something less than the traditional homicide standard for conviction condition, something along the reckless or negligent levels.
COLLINS: Yes. And you were just mentioning Ethan Crumbley, and the warning signs that were so clearly present in that case, in Michigan, before he shot up his school.
John, I mean that exists here too. Look at what his family is telling The Washington Post. An aunt saying he was begging for help from everybody around him, the adults around him failed him.
His grandfather was saying something similar, to The New York Times. We know that investigators who were searching the home found writings in his room, referencing school shootings, referencing what happened at Marjory Stoneman Douglas.
I mean, the signs were there. It's not just that no one had any idea.
MILLER: And I think that this combines with what the grandfather said, when he talked about the conditions at home, the fact that his father was abusive, not physically abusive, but screamed and yelled, and things were very high pitch, a very difficult divorce, he said.
But I'm telling you, the environment he lived in, you put somebody in a situation like that, for 10 or 11 years? And remember, we're talking about a kid who's 13 and then 14. Guess what's going to happen? Nothing good. A lot of family members saw the situation developing there.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, just so many questions about what everyone knew.
John Miller. Andrew McCabe. Thank you both.
And tonight, I do want to note, we've been talking a lot about the shooter, and about his father, understandably so, given the news tonight.
But I also want to remember the four victims of yesterday's shooting, again tonight. 14-year-old student, Mason Schermerhorn. And 14-year- old Christian Angulo. And the teachers at that school, Richard Aspinwall and Christina Irimie. Of course, thinking of their families, their friends, their loved ones on this night.
There's much more to come, on this new arrest, all the new details, and there are a lot of them that are coming out tonight. We're going to be joined by a criminal defense attorney, on whether those charges could hold up in court.
Plus, there is some big news in the Trump election interference case. There's been basically none, since last December. But now, we're learning more about the critical evidence that voters could see, before the election.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back now with our breaking news, tonight, after the father of the suspected Apalachee High School shooter has now been arrested and charged.
There is precedent for this, a case like this, but it doesn't go back very far. Jennifer and James Crumbley. Remember, they were the parents of the teenager, who killed four students, in that 2021 shooting, in Oxford, Michigan, at his school. They were both found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, and sentenced, earlier this year, not that long ago.
The prosecutor behind that first-of-its-kind case spoke to CNN, about the parallels, moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN MCDONALD, PROSECUTED PARENTS OF MICHIGAN SCHOOL SHOOTER: The prosecution of the Crumbleys was never, ever meant to be a floodgate of charges against parents, because it was such an egregious set of facts. And so I -- I'm -- I think I share the emotions of the entire country that even after that well-publicized case, we're still here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me now. CNN Legal Analyst, and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson.
Joey, when you look at these two, I mean, this has only happened two times ever that we know of, in United States' history.
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: What parallels do you see so far between Georgia and Michigan?
JACKSON: Yes, Kaitlan, there's a lot, right? The first parallel is the obvious. And that are, children are dead at the hands of other children. And then you have to look to how did that happen, and could it have been prevented? And to what, if any, right, degree, did parents have responsibility?
[21:20:00]
Certainly, Kaitlan, we saw responsibility, in Michigan, as it related to those parents being held accountable, both being convicted, both serving 10 to 15 years, as a result of involuntary manslaughter, that being, right, not intending to kill, but as a result of their gross negligence.
If you look at here, it looks like we're seeing something very similar. What? A gun being allowed in the hands of a child. Was -- were proper measures put in place to secure that weapon? Apparently not. And so, to the extent that you hold parents responsible, I think you create deterrence.
Now, having said deterrence, Kaitlan, this just happened, Michigan. When they went to trial, literally in February and March of this year, they were found guilty, they being James and Jennifer Crumbley. And here we are. It's September. And we're talking about it again.
But I think it's certainly vital and necessary, for prosecutors, to hold parents responsible.
COLLINS: And the judge was so upset, in that case, saying the signs were there, and you just ignored them. You didn't heed them, and was essentially hoping that would be a warning sign, and now we're seeing this play out again.
And I wonder. Obviously, in a lot of these shootings, the shooter is not often alive. And the fact that he is, and he's talking to investigators. And we learned earlier, he told them, "I did it." I mean, what difference does that make to an investigation?
JACKSON: Well, it's big. Because what you do is you question any suspect.
Here, obviously, the suspect's a juvenile. There will be motions made, by defense lawyers, if there comes a time that there's a trial, to suppress those statements on various grounds. Did he know what he was doing? He's younger.
Certainly, law enforcement can talk to juveniles. There are protections, just like anybody else, though, and those statements have to be voluntary, knowing, et cetera. But at the end of the day, to your question, it's a core part of the investigation. You want to ask the suspect what happened.
So, in addition to a statement, we also know, Kaitlan, that they did some investigation. And they found in that investigation, what his state of mind was, what the planning was, what the intent was. A lot more will come out.
But the fact that the police responded, in a previous time, to the home, based upon a post that he made, and there's still a gun available? That's troubling, problematic--
COLLINS: Yes.
JACKSON: --and arguably criminal.
COLLINS: Well, and what difference does it make for the investigation that they have this audio of the dad? I mean, this was just last May, when there was -- it's Discord, it's the site, and a user was posting--
JACKSON: Yes.
COLLINS: --threats of school shootings. That's how they went to his house, and were speaking to he and his father, and they were asking, what he said to his son about that?
And he was saying, I don't think so. I don't remember anything like that.
And the officer was there saying, this is serious stuff.
And the dad says he knows it's serious, trust me.
JACKSON: So, in direct answer to your question, this is going to be a prosecution about gross negligence. The degree to which you put a firearm in the hands of your son, and knowing potentially what the dangers are, and what your son's behavior is.
Now, Georgia has a statute, very briefly. And people ask, why is it second degree murder? It's second degree murder, because if you engage in negligence, and a child dies, that's what it is in Georgia. So, that goes to the negligence, and that goes to potential guilt in the case. Very important piece of evidence.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, just fascinating development tonight.
Joey Jackson, thank you for that.
JACKSON: Thanks, Kaitlan. COLLINS: Up next, here on THE SOURCE. A judge has allowed the release of never-before-seen evidence, in the Trump election interference case. That is going to happen just weeks before the election.
More with our political, and our legal experts right after this.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Trump -- there has been essentially no movement, in Donald Trump's federal election interference case, since last December. But just tonight, we have heard from the judge, who is overseeing it, making a potentially explosive decision.
Judge Tanya Chutkan opening the door now, for prosecutors, to release significant evidence against Trump, before the election. That includes never-before-seen evidence, like top secret grand jury testimony, FBI memos.
The deadline that she set, tonight, for that brief is September 26, three weeks from tonight, and less than six weeks before Americans go to vote. That means that we could see, for instance, exactly what the former Vice President Mike Pence had to say, to a grand jury, when he testified against Trump, in April of last year. Could be explosive, indeed.
I want to get straight to my legal sources, tonight, on this.
Elie Honig is a former federal prosecutor.
And retired judge, Jill Konviser, is a former New York State Supreme Court justice.
It's great to have you both here.
Elie, just on this.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes.
COLLINS: Mike Pence's grand jury testimony, if that comes out, that could be -- I mean, this isn't going to trial. We've been talking about that and focused on that. But if Mike Pence's testimony comes out, that could be quite significant.
HONIG: For sure. This is the one thing Donald Trump's lawyers, walking into that courtroom, today, did not want to happen, for precisely this reasons. Because what this means is we, all in the public, will see at least some of what Mike Pence said behind closed doors. Grand jury is secret unless it comes out in this type of proceeding.
But I do want to raise one really important red flag, about what happened today, because prosecutors and the judge are going down a very dangerous path. It is clear that prosecutors think they can still introduce evidence of what Donald Trump said, to pressure Mike Pence, and the judge clearly is with them on that.
But the Supreme Court, in their ruling, they didn't quite say that's out. That's immune. They said that's presumptively immune, meaning the Supreme Court has already said, we are leaning strongly against letting you put in evidence of what Mike Pence said.
So, if Judge Chutkan ultimately sides with prosecutors, and says, OK, go ahead, you can introduce the Mike Pence evidence at trial? There's a very good chance the Supreme Court reverses that.
COLLINS: OK. But in the meantime, before we even get to that, though, we could actually see this, right?
[21:30:00]
HONIG: Yes. Put aside what's happening in the court. In public opinion and politics, yes, we will see that, on September 26th.
COLLINS: Well, and Trump's attorneys were clearly arguing, with the election timing in mind, they kept calling it a sensitive time that we are in, which Judge Chutkan was not very happy with.
She said, quote, "This court is not concerned with the electoral schedule."
And John Lauro said, "We're talking about the presidency of the United States."
And she said, "I am not talking about the presidency... I am talking about a" four-court -- "four-count indictment."
JILL KONVISER, RETIRED NY STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: Indictment.
Well, first of all, it does fall, and should perhaps fall on deaf ears, with respect to this judge, because this case is old, and dragging along, and on hiatus, for months and months and months, because of the defendant's motions, and because of their appeals. That they can take them, that's fine.
But it is a little rich for Defendant Trump to -- it's akin to him killing his parents, and begging for mercy from the court, because he's an orphan. He created this delay, and now we are on the steps, the front lawn, of the election, and he's complaining about it. He sort of created the delay. So, in that sense, I agree with you.
But, I think, your point about the Mike Pence--
HONIG: Pence.
KONVISER: --information. The Supreme Court did say that. They did send it back to Chutkan, for her review, and said, you make the decision. But yes, they can--
HONIG: I mean--
KONVISER: --disagree with her. HONIG: Right. Wouldn't it worry you--
KONVISER: But that's--
HONIG: --if you were the trial judge?
KONVISER: It would. It does.
HONIG: Yes.
KONVISER: But the point also is, it's why the defense lawyers say, We want you to rule on that first.
HONIG: Right.
KONVISER: We want to know that. Because once you rule against us on that, we want to then run to the Circuit Court, and then to the Supreme Court, to make this even longer and slower and further away from the election.
COLLINS: Well, and the Supreme Court was brought up today, because the defense was essentially saying that they were pointing to the opinion from Justice Clarence Thomas, in that immunity ruling, saying that he directed them to essentially make these arguments, today, about pursuing this motion.
But then, he quickly corrected himself, when the judge interrupted, and said he directed you to do that?
I mean, it does show, people were wondering at the time why the -- why Justice Thomas was essentially going on, about the Special Counsel--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --and his merits, as his own office, in that ruling.
HONIG: That was a major fail by the defense team. I mean, that was an embarrassment.
So, now they're making a different argument, shifting away from immunity, that Special Counsel itself is unconstitutional. And that argument has been made several times, including in the D.C. federal courts, including in that Court of Appeals, which have rejected that argument.
KONVISER: Which , yes.
HONIG: They said no, Special Counsel is perfectly constitutional.
And today, Judge Chutkan said, Well, isn't that the end of the story?
And Trump's team said, Well, Clarence Thomas in his immunity ruling, went sort of on a little bender and said, I think you might want to do this.
Completely fell flat. The judge rejected that out of hand. She said, I don't care what one Justice said, in passing.
COLLINS: OK. I'm obsessed with the Supreme Court case.
But I do have to ask you. Because tomorrow, we are going to find out from Judge Merchan, here in New York, who you know very well, I should note, for anyone who's forgotten, as we talked about it ad nauseam, about whether or not he's sentencing Donald Trump, 13 days from now, or if he's going to wait until after the election.
What's your sense?
KONVISER: My sense is that he probably hasn't made that determination.
I would say, he is damned if he does, and he's damned if he doesn't. Either he sentences him, just before the election, and he's criticized because he -- because it's too close to the election. Or he waits and he looks weak and he's punted it.
If I were him, and I don't know what he's going to do, I would wait till after the election. I would issue my 330.30 post-judgment decision, and I would sentence him if he hasn't granted the motion the same day. That would be the end.
COLLINS: Well, we have you booked tomorrow night. So, we'll see what happens next 24 hours.
HONIG: Accountability, Judge.
COLLINS: Elie Honig. Judge Konviser. Great to have you both.
Up next here. An important follow-up on a story that we broke here, last night. Vladimir Putin's new plot that's been exposed, where now the Kremlin is targeting several popular right-wing influencers, real people, not Russian trolls, here in the U.S. A follow-up on that, right after this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the Justice Department has announced new charges, as the U.S. government is working to expose what appears to be a sweeping effort, by Russia, to interfere in the upcoming U.S. election.
The Kremlin is accused of replacing troll farms and bots of years past, you remember that from 2016, with actual and pretty influential American voices in this election.
The Justice Department is highlighting the money trail leading, from what the Feds say is the Kremlin, to a U.S.-based company -- a U.S.- based company that is bankrolling some of the most notable names, in right-wing media, that you'll see online.
These are American influencers, who have millions of followers, and who often host well-known Republicans, including the former President of the United States. What they say sometimes can sound strikingly similar, to Russian state TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM POOL, AMERICAN COMMENTATOR AND JOURNALIST: This is psychotic. Ukraine is the enemy of this country.
One of the greatest enemies of our nation, right now, is Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Some of these voices make clear who they want to win in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE RUBIN, CREATOR & HOST, THE RUBIN REPORT: Trump now represents something much bigger than your uncle's old Republican.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And they often brag about their ability to impact political discourse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENNY JOHNSON, AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND YOUTUBER: President Trump calling Kamala Harris, Communist Kamala. Yes. Who said to do that? Our chat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Prosecutors don't claim that any of those people, you just saw, knew that the company, Tenet Media, was funded with money that was coming from Russia. They have all described themselves as victims, in this case, saying that they created their own content, without editorial input from anyone.
[21:40:00]
But I should note, today's indictment is another indictment, today, of a Russian-American political pundit, who was reportedly paid directly by Russian state media, and also worked directly with the Russian government about his content.
My sources are experts in this stuff. Donie O'Sullivan. Julia Ioffe. Both here tonight.
And obviously, Julia, what do you make of this shift of what we've seen, from 2016, when it was a troll farm, all of these bots, to now trying to co-opt real Americans, with what appears to be a pretty hefty Russian budget.
JULIA IOFFE, FOUNDING PARTNER & WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, PUCK: Well, you have to keep evolving in asymmetrical war, right? And I think the Russians discovered quite a while ago that there is an actual ideological affinity, among MAGA Republicans and the Kremlin. If you recall. Tucker Carlson, on the eve of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, said, Why are we fighting Russia, when it's a Christian nationalist country, led by a White Christian nationalist leader, who is fighting trans people, gay people and the LGBT agenda? These should be our natural allies.
And I think the Russian government realized that this was, in fact, true. And we saw reporting memos that have come out of the Kremlin, and the various PR and political consulting firms they use, that specifically say, to target people, like Benny Johnson, like Tim Pool, because of this ideological affinity that you don't actually have to feed them any of this. They are saying this on their own.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, it feels like they almost may be overpaid. These are people, who would have echoed a lot of these talking points anyway.
And Donie, people watching at home may say, OK, I don't know who that is. I don't know who Benny Johnson is. I don't know who Tim Pool is. They don't have always mainstream recognition, when it comes to their names.
But when it comes to reach and impact, you've been looking into this, how far does it go?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kaitlan. These guys have massive, huge audiences. I mean, they are essentially stars on social media, on the far-right, in conservative Twitter as such.
I think we have a full-screen we can show, where just between three of the guys, who are tied up in this alleged Russian operation, Benny Johnson, Tim Pool, and Dave Rubin, just on YouTube alone, between them, they have about 7 million subscribers. They are just reaching millions and millions of people, every single day.
Now, everybody, including the three gentlemen, you see there on screen, they say, they deny that they knew anything about this. Indeed, the DOJ makes clear that they seemingly were unwittingly co- opted here, as we have seen, in the past, in terms of unwitting co- opting Americans, kind of doing Russia's bidding, Moscow's bidding, for them, and they're sometimes referred to as useful idiots.
But reading through this indictment, it does beg the question. Some of these guys were getting paid a lot of money. One person, who is not identified, we haven't tied the -- there's -- the commentator to name, but one U.S. commentator was getting paid about $5 million a year, just to make a few videos a month, for this operation. So, to not question, or to not wonder where that money really is coming from? These guys are lacking curiosity, I would say, most generous interpretation of it.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, it's pretty remarkable to think they're getting paid that much.
And we'll talk about that more in a second. We've got Elle Reeve, here on standby. But Julia, I do want to ask you about what Putin said, today. Because we heard from him today. It was first time, since this indictment was unsealed, yesterday. It was essentially a comment that was dripping with sarcasm, as he said that he is supporting Vice President Harris, in this election. He went on to say, Biden told us to support her, so we're supporting her.
And then, just to show you how much he is paying attention to U.S. media coverage, he invoked her laugh, which is obviously something that Trump, and Vance, and a lot of Republicans have made fun of, when it comes to the Vice President.
Is there any reason you, a Russia expert, would believe that Putin does want Harris to win this election, over Donald Trump?
IOFFE: No, I don't think he wants Harris to win. It's the same. He endorsed President Biden -- endorsed President Biden earlier, and it was just, it was sarcasm.
There have been times, when he has talked about Donald Trump, and how he's being unfairly prosecuted and persecuted, by the U.S. Justice Department, that everybody in the whole world understands that he's a victim of the Biden political machine.
[21:45:00]
Listen. If you watch Russian state TV, which is heavily controlled by the Kremlin, owned outright by it, you will see stuff that looks a lot like Fox, and tropes that you see -- you and I see all the time in right-wing media. Stuff about Kamala's laugh. Stuff about her not being very bright. Stuff about the lewd things that Donald Trump has retweeted about her potentially using sexual favors to advance in her career.
And so, what we've seen actually, in the last eight years, since 2016, is you have this big feedback loop, between right-wingers, here in Washington, and the Kremlin-friendly and Kremlin-controlled press in Russia. And they all repeat and recycle the same memes.
And it goes the other way too. You see a lot of Russian propagandists recycling what they hear American right-wingers say, not just the other way around.
Julia Ioffe. Donie O'Sullivan. Thank you both.
And we also have CNN's Elle Reeve, who has reported extensively on the right-wing ecosystem that Julia was just talking about there. She has an excellent book out on this, called, "Black Pill: How I Witnessed the Darkest Corners of the Internet Come to Life, Poison Society, and Capture American Politics," a book title that really does say it all.
And what Donie was mentioning there, the not asking questions, when they're getting massive paychecks, like $5 million, or $400,000 for a video. I mean, this was an ecosystem that created that environment, where that happens, and people don't ask questions. ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, for a long time, there was a section of the far-right, the alt-right, that was seeking a relationship with Russia, and they were having trouble getting money out of them.
So, in 2017, in Charlottesville, these alt-right marchers were shouting, Russia is our friend, which seems like this bizarre thing for a bunch of racists, to be talking about. But that was part of years-long effort.
So in emails I obtained for my book, alt-right leader, Richard Spencer, and his patron, Bill Regnery, wrote about a mission to Moscow, in 2014. They had the idea that Moscow might find them useful, in making anti-American and pro-Russian propaganda. They said that perhaps they could develop a relationship with the state.
Then, they set about trying to make those contacts. They organized a conference in Budapest, in Hungary. The featured speaker was going to be a Russian nationalist, Aleksandr Dugin. But at the last minute, the government declared that it was illegal. Spencer was detained, and he was interrogated about his relationship to Dugin.
Then, in 2018, Regnery flies to Saint Petersburg, and meets with a commentator for Tsargrad (ph). That's a Russian TV channel that's owned by an oligarch that's under U.S. sanction.
And for years, they're pushing out ideas like the U.S. should leave NATO, that Ukraine's a fake country, that American cultural hegemony is a bad thing, and that Russia is stopping it.
COLLINS: Well, and when you look at that, and talk about your time covering this, and how it's infiltrated Republican conversations, what we've seen.
Tenet Media, specifically, it talks about, when you look at this company, that's the company that's based in Tennessee, that was paying these people, they say, unwittingly, with the Russian money that they were receiving.
You look at the indictment. It was like 90 percent of Tenet Media's funding came from this $10 million from the Russians, according to this indictment.
REEVE: It was a lot of money splashing around.
And I saw, in June, a guest on Tim Pool's show for Tenet. It was called The Culture War. It was Richard Spencer.
So, I called him today. I was like, what was it like?
COLLINS: You called Richard Spencer today?
REEVE: Yes. And he said that one of his main takeaways was all the money they were throwing around. That they flew him to the D.C. airport. That they picked him up in a fancy SUV. He was driven to West Virginia, where Pool's studio is. Put up in a hotel. There were even construction workers working on the skate park that Pool bought, recently, in the area.
So, Tenet didn't get all of its money from Russia, according to the indictment. But at least in Spencer's eyes, they had a big budget.
COLLINS: That's really remarkable.
Elle Reeve, I know you'll do more reporting on this. We'll continue to follow this story. Thank you.
REEVE: Thanks.
COLLINS: Up next. Israel's Prime Minister, tonight, is dismissing the prospect of a hostage and ceasefire deal, as we are hearing more, tonight, from the family of Hersh Goldberg-Polin, who was murdered.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the parents of Hersh Goldberg-Polin responded to a video, that was released by Hamas, showing their son, who was murdered by Hamas, in captivity beforehand.
They said in a statement, I'm quoting them now, "This must serve as an immediate wake-up call to the world to take action today to secure the release of the remaining 101 hostages before it is too late. No other family should go through what our family (and the families of the other recently executed hostages) have endured."
This is coming as the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has offered his clearest statement yet on whether a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza is in the making.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Hamas is not there with a deal. There's not a deal in the making, unfortunately.
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: And it's not close?
NETANYAHU: That still hasn't happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That comment there is in stark contrast what we're hearing from the White House, President Biden's own hopeful messaging, just this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think we're on the verge of having an agreement. It's just time to end it. It's time to finish it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Our source tonight on this is Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations, Danny Danon.
Ambassador, we've had you on, since you're in New York. Great to have you.
[21:55:00]
Netanyahu says there's no deal in the making. I mean, that's not what we are hearing from -- from the President, from the Secretary of State. What is the reality?
AMB. DANNY DANON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: We want to lower expectations, because we have experience with Hamas. In May, the U.S. proposed a deal. We said yes. Hamas said no. In August, another deal was proposed, modified by the U.S. We agreed to the deal. Hamas said no. So, they rejected all deals that were proposed. That's why we don't want to raise expectations.
But we are still continuing to send the head of the Mossad and other officials to negotiate. We will not stop with that. Hopefully, we will reach an agreement. But with Hamas, you never know.
COLLINS: Yes. But we keep hearing, hopefully we'll reach an agreement.
And I -- when you hear Secretary Blinken say, today, 90 percent there on a deal, they're 90 percent there. Blinken repeated that again today. And Netanyahu says there's nothing in the making. What is the discrepancy there?
DANON: Well--
COLLINS: What are people supposed to believe when they're watching it?
DANON: First of all, we are grateful for the support from the officials, from the U.S., trying really hard.
But with reality on the ground, and look what happened, last week. They executed six hostages, who stayed alive, for 11 months in the tunnels. They shot them in the back of the head. One American. And now, they are really -- asking for more prisoners to be released.
So, my feeling is that every time we get closer to reach an agreement, Hamas will come up with another excuse, why not to sign an agreement.
COLLINS: But is it just Hamas? I mean, obviously, they've been changing the terms of this, ever since the first ceasefire, last November.
But there's obviously also very extensive reporting, in Israeli media, about Netanyahu also changing his demands, including for the Philadelphi Corridor to be maintained by the IDF. So, is Israel also changing its request?
DANON: So, without going into details, we made heavy compromises. When I say heavy compromises, it means we are willing to release terrorists, who murdered Israelis. We are willing to make steps on the ground in Gaza. So, I think we proved that we are willing to pay a heavy price, because we understand that every day, the life of the hostages is in danger.
I read yesterday, in the Security Council -- we had the first debate since October 7th, at the U.N., about the hostages. And I read the testimonials of the prisoners, who came back from Gaza, the raping, the tortures. We know what's happening there. So, we are willing to pay a price.
COLLINS: Well, and when it comes to that though, I mean, the most powerful comments on this have been from the families of the hostages themselves. You just heard from Hersh's parents.
And Omer Neutra, his parents -- he's an Israeli-American hostage. His parents said this today about that comment from Netanyahu, saying it's Hamas' fault there is no deal. This is what they had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ORNA NEUTRA, HAMAS HOSTAGE OMER NEUTRA'S MOTHER: I would expect from the Prime Minister to say, instead of just dismissing whatever is on the table, and blaming it on Hamas, to say that he is committed to making a deal that will work and not just dismiss it, you know, lightheartedly, like it -- like it is. It's just crass.
RONEN NEUTRA, HAMAS HOSTAGE OMER NEUTRA'S FATHER: We know there got to be a deal with the devil. Do the deal. Bring the hostages. And later on, do what you need to make sure that Israel is secure. Not on the back of my child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What does Israel say to families, like Omer's, who say the imperative to save our son, to save these other hostages, supersedes any kind of other consideration for this war?
DANON: So, I think anyone will do the same, will fight for their sons and their kids. And we understand that. And we are doing everything we can. But unfortunately, we have no rational player to negotiate with.
And many of our colleagues say, Well, let's have a deal. But when you have Sinwar, who wants to stay alive, who wants to continue to control Gaza, who wants to have the hostages around him? It's not up to us.
So, I think we should continue, both with the military pressure. And we will not stop, Kaitlan. We will continue until we will bring them back home.
COLLINS: But is the military pressure working? I mean, I was in Israel, the last hostage release and ceasefire agreement. That was last November. It's been almost a year, since October 7th now.
DANON: So, it's working, but it's not enough. We were able to release hostages. But it's not enough. We understand, in order to bring those who are still alive, we need to make a deal. That's why we'll continue to negotiate a deal.
But I think Hamas should realize that we are determined to bring them back home. And for now, they are still hoping that maybe we'll be able to stay alive.
COLLINS: You said you wanted to downplay expectations. Does that mean a deal is not happening in the near future?
DANON: I speak with the families. Before the debate, at the U.N., I spoke with many families. And I always -- in a situation that I don't want to raise expectations, because they read the headlines, and they believe that maybe tomorrow they will have their loved one coming for Shabbat with them. It's not happening so soon. It's complicated.
[22:00:00]
We are dealing with a terrorist organization. They don't come with like demands that we can meet. And maybe, and I'm afraid that is the case, they really don't want to have a deal, because they know that at the end of the day, if they would release all hostages, they will have no bargaining chips, in order to stay alive.
COLLINS: Ambassador Danny Danon, keep us updated. Thank you very much.
DANON: Thank you very much.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much, for joining us, this busy hour.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
