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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Puts Focus On Legal Cases 60 Days Before Election; Dick Cheney Says He's Voting For Kamala Harris; Alleged GA School Shooter & His Father Appear In Court. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 06, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONEN NEUTRA, FATHER OF ISRAELI-AMERICAN HOSTAGE IN GAZA: Work with the partners hand-in-hand. And bring Prime Minister Netanyahu to the point, where he's going to agree to a deal with Hamas. And of course, Hamas needs to agree too. Let's not -- this is a deal with the devil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Stay with CNN for the latest developments from the Middle East.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Donald Trump avoids being sentenced until after the election. In the critical final weeks beforehand, he is lashing out at his sexual assault accusers, and his own attorneys.
And the man who was once the embodiment of the Republican Party, Dick Cheney, is casting his vote for Democrat, Kamala Harris. Why the former Vice President says Trump can't be trusted with power again.
And the 14-year-old Georgia school shooting suspect, in court, alongside his father, both of them coming face-to-face with the families of the victims.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
With fewer than nine weeks to go before the election, Donald Trump secured a pretty big win, today, regarding his New York hush money conviction.
Instead of being sentenced, potentially to jail, in two weeks from now, he will now be sentenced after November 5th, and that's only, quote, if necessary. Those two words standing out from Judge Merchan's decision today, and I'll tell you why, in just a moment.
But really, this decision overall means there will be no big courtroom drama playing out before voters are going to the polls, at least not in a courtroom, here in New York.
Trump was with his attorneys, when he found out this news today. That's because he spent the morning, in another courtroom, for another hearing, actually coming within feet of E. Jean Carroll, the woman that a jury found he sexually abused and defamed, which didn't seem to deter him, judging by the comments that he made afterward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This is a disgraceful case.
I have no idea who the woman is, and I never met her.
I'm disappointed in my legal talent, I'll be honest with you. They're good. They're good people. They're talented people. Today, at the trial, they didn't mention the dress.
I said, Why didn't you mention that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It was pretty notable to stand there and watch, as Trump was surrounded by those very attorneys, who represent him on many different cases, as he said, he was disappointed of them and listed off grievances, during what was billed as a press conference, but didn't involve answering any of our questions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Judge Merchan. Judge Engoron. And Judge Kaplan. Very, very hostile judges.
I got sued essentially for defamation, because I'm denying a story, where I'm right. I should be suing her for defamation.
There were two witnesses. One is a woman, who's followed me for years. She said, in 1979, I was in an airplane with her. She said I was making out with her, then I grabbed her at a certain part, and that was when she had enough.
It didn't happen. And she would not have been the chosen one. She would not have been the chosen one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Yes, you heard that right. Trump criticizing the physical appearance of some of his sexual assault accusers.
Now, this comes, and what you just heard there, it was 45 minutes of that today, from Trump Tower. And it's all coming to some 15 percent of likely voters, and six battlegrounds, tonight, remain undecided on who they're going to be voting for, in November.
My lead source, tonight, was at that press conference, sitting next to me, while Trump was going off and venting. Senior Political Correspondent, for The New York Times, Maggie Haberman.
I mean, Maggie, just, obviously, Trump had just come out of that courtroom, where E. Jean Carroll was, just a few feet away from him, as he's appealing this.
But it is also a a strategic choice, choice maybe not that strategic, to come out and talk and draw attention, to sexual assault accusations against you, and sexual abuse findings by a jury, and also his criminal conviction, here in New York.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Right. I don't know of anyone who was recommending that he do this.
And it's also worth noting, he didn't have to be in court today. He chose to go to this hearing. And I understand it. He has made very clear he wants to be, at legal proceedings, connected to him. That is invariably going to draw attention to this news conference. And he didn't take questions from us, as you know, because you were there, as I was there.
All this is going to do is call more attention to that as well, at a moment when he is trailing badly with women in polls. And so, this -- we have, you know, certainly, he has called attention to all kinds of things that are typically unhelpful for a candidate. Sometimes, it has not hurt him. It didn't hurt him, in the primaries, when he called attention to the indictments that he was facing.
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This is not a primary anymore, and this is different. These allegations are different. And it wasn't just that he called attention to them. He laid them out in sort of graphic detail. He talked about allegations that, frankly, I suspect much of the public doesn't remember anymore. But if they were tuning in, they will.
COLLINS: Yes, it kind of seemed like what your opponent would be doing--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --two months out from the election.
HABERMAN: I'm sure they will be, after that press conference. I mean.
COLLINS: Kind of reviving--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --all of the nitty-gritty details of these allegations that have followed him since he was inside the White House, and a candidate.
HABERMAN: And before.
COLLINS: Before 2016. HABERMAN: Yes. I mean, look, he denies all of them. You saw that there. He has said that repeatedly.
He, as you know well, he thinks that he is his own best defender, both in a courtroom and on television. And he likes to -- he likes to be in front of cameras. There are times, when that aligns with good politics for him. And then there are times, when it does not.
And it is hard to see how -- now, this may not matter, because there's so much baked in with him, and it's very hard to imagine how many actual undecided voters there are. I think there are people, who are leaning, in one direction or another, and may say that they're undecided, but they're really persuadable.
This is not generally, a lot of information that you would put out there. And he just gave the Harris team a bunch of sound bites to use in ads.
COLLINS: Well, and what I was thinking was also, clearly, this is a very sensitive issue.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: And we know that. If you've covered him, you know the E. Jean Carroll thing, especially.
HABERMAN: Sure.
COLLINS: But he was making clear, as Harris is debate-prepping in Pennsylvania, he kind of made clear, here's a roadmap for issues that I'm -- that I'm triggered by, that are something to--
HABERMAN: That's right.
COLLINS: Kind of was saying, Here's potentially a sensitive topic, to go after me on, on Tuesday night.
HABERMAN: And here's things I might say, depending on how you -- how you do it and things that with--
COLLINS: With many more people watching.
HABERMAN: Right. With millions of people tuning into this. It's just there's a lot of reasons why.
I can't really imagine that anyone in his campaign was actively saying, You know what? Here's an idea we're going to take to you. You should go do this.
He tends to want to do these things on his own, and there aren't very many people who say he shouldn't.
COLLINS: So, the attorneys that were standing there around him, you can only see a few, in the actual camera shot, when he was talking. But actually, you can see John Sauer on the left. Alina Habba. Will Scharf. Todd Blanche. Emil Bove was next to him. Boris Epshteyn. He was criticizing them, which was maybe one of the biggest, most standout moments, from the conference, the news conference today, where he was saying, they're good, they're good people, they're talented.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: But he was critical of how they've handled the E. Jean Carroll case. What did you make of him doing that in such a public way?
HABERMAN: Well, it's a way to show dominance. It's a way to say what he wants, knowing they're not going to say anything back to him, because this is a public setting, and they're not going to turn to him and argue. And it's a way to humiliate. And that is something that we know that he has done with any number of aides, and lawyers, and advisers, and employees, over a number of decades.
He is -- he is constantly complaining about his lawyers. You know this. This has been going on for decades. Even Roy Cohn, who he has mythologized, as the most perfect lawyer in his -- in his death -- since his death, he was really critical of, in real-time, and he distanced himself from, when Roy Cohn was dying of AIDS.
So, this is now just the latest. These people, who have defended him, pretty aggressively, and in the ways he has asked, more often than not, up to a line that they try not to have cross, where it would cause problems with a judge, or a jury, he is -- it's still not enough for him.
COLLINS: Yes. And he had a lot to say about judges today. There was a moment of kind of disconnectedness, between what he was saying, about the judges that his cases are before--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --and what other people say about judges that he likes.
I just want everyone to listen to those two moments back-to-back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They say terrible things about judges. They do it with the Supreme Court justices. Because they think they're going to intimidate them. I think it should be illegal.
Judge Merchan, Judge Engoron, and Judge Kaplan, all of them, hostile areas, and very, very hostile judges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HABERMAN: There were -- there's -- there's a lot there. But, look, Trump has been very critical of judges. And he's been critical of reporters, who cover him in ways he doesn't like. For a long period of time. He described it, at one point, in that press conference, that I don't think you showed, as working the ref. And then, he started talking about the late coach, Bobby Knight. And then, he went sort of seamlessly from that -- and he was talking about the judges right before he started talking about Bobby Knight and working the ref.
And then, he went seamlessly into saying that some of us, meaning us in the press, should be ashamed of ourselves. I mean, a lot of this is working the ref. He just sees judges as no different than anyone else. And he said openly, he thinks Republicans are not good enough at that.
He praised judge Aileen Cannon, without naming her, but it's the judge he appointed, who dismissed the documents case against him in Florida. The other judges, who were involved in cases that he didn't do very well in, he was very critical of himself. There's not a -- there's not a specific throughline.
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But he has -- he has made a career out of working the ref, and it's not surprising.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, the throughline was criticizing the judges, who don't dismiss his cases--
HABERMAN: Right. That's right.
COLLINS: --or treat him fairly. Even though Judge Merchan, today, we saw what he did, just a little after that. And then, praising the ones who do dismiss his cases.
HABERMAN: Well, yes, I would -- I would actually make the argument that Judge Merchan's decision, to adjourn the case, until after the election, adjourn the sentencing, until after the election, in that case. While I suspect Donald Trump doesn't actually want to go to prison, there is a world in which this, it would be politically helpful to him, because his supporters have been galvanized around moments like that.
And he is -- he is an astute enough reader of the political landscape, especially on his base, to probably know that.
COLLINS: Yes, so it may have been better for him--
HABERMAN: That's right.
COLLINS: --politically, which everything for him is hinging on this election--
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: --when it comes to other court cases.
HABERMAN: Correct. And I think that he is acutely aware that if he loses the election, that is the case, and there could be other investigations. COLLINS: So, we obviously didn't get to ask questions. I had a lot about the debate, on Tuesday night.
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: Obviously, he's getting prepared. He's never even met Vice President Harris in person, which is kind of striking to be--
HABERMAN: Yes, it is.
COLLINS: --still be coming face-to-face on the debate stage.
We heard from her today. It seems to be a preview of what she is going to say, on Tuesday night. Listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: He talks about being so rich. He inherited hundreds of millions of dollars from his father and went bankrupt six times.
And I think that we know that when we look at somebody who actually has come from a working background and understands the needs of working people, that's when working people benefit. And that's the contrast in this election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: How do you think his advisers are going to prepare him, not just the E. Jean Carroll stuff, but when she's going after him, on, going bank -- declaring bankruptcy, and his money, and kind of his entire, what you wrote an entire book on, his entire comeuppance in New York.
HABERMAN: Look, I think that any time people talk about his family, I think that that can be triggering for him, and we have seen that any number of times.
He's not unused to these kinds of critiques. He has heard these before. He has heard those, over the last nine years.
I will say, just as we get into what people should expect from this debate, I have no idea what is going to happen. None of us have any idea what's going to happen.
But when we went into the debate, or when everyone headed into the debate, between President Biden and Donald Trump, the expectation from Biden's folks was, if Trump -- if ever -- if the focus is on Trump, and if Trump is agitated, and if people -- if we get under Trump's skin, people will really see that.
And Trump actually delivered a fairly, at least for the first 45 minutes, pretty level performance, and just sort of let Biden be the focus.
I think there is going -- yes, I think that he will react to some of that. I think his team has talked to him about those kinds of things. I think they are more used to that than other things.
I think that there is going to be a lot of focus, on trying to show who the Vice President is. And I think that's the side of the equation that a lot of people are going to be focused on.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, it is -- it's going to be a fascinating debate.
HABERMAN: Oh, yes.
COLLINS: At least (ph).
HABERMAN: Yes. And, again, anybody who says they know what to expect, I think it's incorrect. I mean, it is worth noting, he has -- he has debated more than she has, more recently, and he has done more interviews than she has, more recently. I don't know which forum and which format of prep will be more beneficial.
COLLINS: Yes.
Maggie Haberman, great reporting. Thank you for that.
HABERMAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next here. Democrats once called him Darth Vader. But now, Dick Cheney is voting for their candidate in 2024. It is a remarkable turn. We're going to tell you all about it.
Also, it was an emotional day in court, in Georgia, where families of the school shooting, and the victims, saw the father and the son charged, with their own eyes.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we have now gone from a Cheney voting for Vice President Kamala Harris, to the Cheney voting for Harris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZ CHENEY, FORMER UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: Dick Cheney will be voting for Kamala Harris.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After his daughter, Liz Cheney confirmed how he plans to vote this November. Dick Cheney, in his own words, said, and I'm quoting him now, "In our nation's 248-year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump." And he added, quote, "He can never be trusted with power again."
To underscore just how remarkable that statement is, that one of the highest profile Republicans in modern history is voting for a Democrat in this presidential election? You have to take a step back, and look at Dick Cheney's record.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Dick Cheney has held key positions in government for more than 30 years.
White House Chief of Staff during the Ford administration.
Five terms as U.S. congressman.
Secretary of Defense under George H. Bush.
Vice President to George W. Bush.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And when George W. Bush announced Cheney, as his running mate, in the year, 2000, this was the debate that was ripping through Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Conservatives applauded his choice of Cheney, one of their own, as his running mate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Democrats attacked George W. Bush's running mate for being conservative.
BILL PRESS (ph), RADIO HOST & PODCASTER: Dick Cheney is too far to the right for most Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I should note, Cheney himself never shied away from that description.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I supported Bill. And certainly, I do have a conservative record. But I'm proud of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, the Harris campaign is responding. They say that the Vice President is proud to have Dick Cheney's support.
My political sources are here tonight, to talk about that.
Brian Stelter.
Van Jones. And Scott Jennings, who served in the Bush-Cheney administration.
So Scott, what does it say about Donald Trump, about your party, that George W. Bush's vice president, the epitome of the Republican Party for decades, is now actively endorsing a Democrat for president?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASST. TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH: Not only did I serve in their White House. I worked on both of their presidential campaigns. I helped elect this man, vice president, twice. And actually just saying, I've revere Dick Cheney.
COLLINS: So, explain it to us.
JENNINGS: Yes. I revere this man, and deeply respect his service to our party.
I mean, look, it is shocking, for someone, like me, probably for most Republicans, to hear it. I don't think the Liz Cheney news is all that shocking. But the Dick Cheney news is somewhat shocking.
I do think it underscores the split in the party over the old guard and the new guard, and also some of the split over the old way of thinking about foreign policy, and the new way that the Trump group thinks about foreign policy.
Look, here's what I think about the Cheney endorsement. Are working- class voters, in Pennsylvania, thinking about what Dick Cheney has to say about this? No. And so, I don't think it's going to have a huge amount of impact on movement of people out there. But do I think people in Washington, and sort of elite corridors, are going to talk about it? Yes.
Look, I think his statement was a little hyperbolic, to be honest. I mean, there's been a lot of enemies of the United States, over 248 years. I don't think Donald Trump is more villainous than everybody who's wished, for the United States to go away, foreign or domestic, so.
But this is, it's a surprising thing, honestly.
COLLINS: But--
JENNINGS: I was kind of stunned when I heard it.
COLLINS: What about, Scott, just quickly, I mean, Trump called Dick Cheney an irrelevant RINO tonight. For those, who are not in the Beltway Corridor, that is Republican In Name Only.
I mean, can you really call Dick Cheney, a Republican In Name Only?
JENNINGS: No, he's not a RINO. He's, in my opinion, he's a Republican in good standing. But obviously, he's not in good standing with Donald Trump. And the Cheneys and the Trumps don't get along. So, I'm not totally surprised to see them not on the same page. But the energy of the Republican Party is not with the Dick Cheney wing right now. It's with the Donald Trump wing. And that's just the way the cookie crumbles, in this particular election.
COLLINS: Van, what's your take on all of this?
VAN JONES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Come on in. The water's warm. Anybody, who loves America should be coming on in. This -- we have a big tent. It's the size now of a shopping mall. Because Donald Trump is a threat to the country.
He's not -- it's not about foreign policy. It's not, Oh, well, I see China differently slightly than Donald Trump. He's saying this man is a threat to the country, he spent his entire life trying to protect. Dick Cheney. People should take that seriously.
And also, I think you should be somewhat impressed with a Democratic Party that has enough room in it for voters, as far-left as AOC and as far-right as Dick Cheney, because the values that Kamala Harris is running on are increasingly commonsense values. That America should be strong. We should focus on freedom. We should have a big tent. We should be kind to each other. We should include everybody.
This is not some far-left crazy campaign that's attracting people across the board. And anybody else who wants to come on, we got a big tent. This tent is huge, and you're welcome here.
COLLINS: Yes, notorious leftist Dick Cheney. I mean, I just, I really, personally, can't get over it. Just processing and seeing that.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST, AUTHOR, "NETWORK OF LIES": It's amazing.
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: And Stelter, first off, welcome back as our Chief Media Analyst.
STELTER: Thank you.
COLLINS: It's great to have you.
STELTER: Good to be here.
COLLINS: This is your first time, on THE SOURCE, now that you're back officially.
STELTER: Everything old is new again.
COLLINS: In the CNN family. And it's great to have you.
STELTER: Thanks.
COLLINS: As you're looking at this, and Liz Cheney today saying, she's not an official surrogate for the campaign, but she will be out there-- STELTER: Right.
COLLINS: --campaigning, and on the -- on the campaign trail. And telling people, Hey, I don't agree with Harris on policy, in a lot of these issues. But I believe this is bigger than that, which is what her dad is saying.
STELTER: Yes, I remember that Trump once attacked Cheney and I in the same tweet, and I thought I was in good company, in that moment.
COLLINS: It's quite the Venn diagram.
STELTER: Look, Liz Cheney is a really interesting character. She's a really interesting figure in American politics, even though she's not currently in the arena as an elected official.
I wondered if she was going to come on stage, during the DNC, and make the endorsement in a very visible way. Instead, she's chosen somewhat lower-profile forums, this week, to make these announcements.
So, I'm wondering, will she be out on the campaign trail, with Harris, at some point? Will she make some public appearance? She's clearly thought this through, about how visible she wants to be, and thinking about whether that benefits Harris, or whether it doesn't.
COLLINS: Yes. I think she was at the Taylor Swift concert, she said, in London.
STELTER: Yes, that's true.
COLLINS: So, DNC, the reason why--
STELTER: She had a great reason not to be at the DNC.
COLLINS: Which is why she couldn't be there.
[21:25:00]
But Scott, looking at this. We also heard from Pat Toomey, a former Pennsylvania senator, this week, who was saying he's not voting for Trump or Harris. And said, really, the reason for Trump is because of how he handled the 2020 election, and trying to overturn it.
Trump, today, was speaking to the largest police union. He was in North Carolina. And he had a request for them. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I hope you watch for voter fraud. So, it starts early. You know, it starts in a week. But I hope you can watch. And you're all over the place.
You can keep it down just by watching, because, believe it or not, they're afraid of that badge. They're afraid of you people. They're afraid of that more than anything else. They're afraid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Scott, what do you make of that?
JENNINGS: Well, he wasn't just speaking to the largest police union. He was accepting the endorsement of the National Fraternal Order of Police, which represents hundreds of thousands of police officers.
COLLINS: Right.
JENNINGS: So, it was actually a pretty big day. While Cheney was doing Harris, he was getting the FOP, which I would argue was a bigger deal, in terms of campaign endorsements today.
So, I -- this is his campaign. He's got the cops. And I think it's going to be--
COLLINS: Though--
JENNINGS: --actually a pretty good pivot and a shield for him, when Democrats come after him, for his legal issues, calling him a felon or whatever. If I were him, I would say, If the police were worried about it, they sure didn't show it, when they endorsed me the other day. So, I thought it was a big get.
COLLINS: But Scott, sorry, I meant, the sentiment of what he was saying, that they need to keep an eye out, for voter fraud, and that people are--
JENNINGS: Oh.
COLLINS: --intimidated by them?
STELTER: Is that what we really want the police to be doing?
JONES: No.
JENNINGS: Watching for people to -- who are committing crimes? I mean, I don't know. Maybe. I mean, I -- I mean, they have some role to play in that, I guess.
But I mean, look, he thinks voter fraud is happening, even if it's not happening, and he wants everyone to watch out for, whether they're cops or not. This is not a new comment or request from him, I mean.
JONES: It does, though, raise some concern for folks, who feel that there may be some voter intimidation going on, whether it's from law enforcement, or whether it's just from this apparently big volunteer operations being whipped up, to kind of, quote-unquote, watch the polls, which could be experiences like real vigilante type of activity.
So look, I mean, I think it's really unfortunate. We have a great election system. We have regular everyday Americans, who are now having to risk their lives, to just sit there in their garage, and let people vote, because we have a president that just will not get off this pogo stick, of putting down America, and putting down our elections -- our electoral system.
And the idea of him enlisting law enforcement in this kind of fantasy he has, is disturbing to some people.
COLLINS: I think, yes, it could be disturbing to a lot of people. Especially given what you just said there, Scott. There is no fraud, even though he thinks there is.
Great to have you all, here on a Friday night. Especially you, Stelter, welcome back.
STELTER: Thanks.
COLLINS: A reminder. CNN is going to have complete coverage and exclusive analysis, before and after that debate, on Tuesday. You can watch the ABC News Presidential Debate Simulcast, right here, 09:00 p.m. Eastern, your favorite hour, on Tuesday, on CNN.
Up next. The father and the son, who were charged in Georgia school shooting, that we brought you that news last night, they were in court today, as we're also learning more about some pretty incredible actions, taken by heroic students, who tried to save their teacher.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're getting new details, this hour, about the frantic effort, by Apalachee High School students, to save their teacher's life, as the shooter changed all of their lives forever.
According to a family friend, Richard Aspinwall was shot in the chest, after he heard a commotion outside his math class. As he was bleeding, on the ground, his students pulled him back into the classroom, and took off their own shirts, to try and stop the bleeding and save him. He died a short time, later, along with the three other victims that day.
And that is what led to what we saw, today, the 14-year-old accused shooter, joining his father, in the same Georgia courtroom, today, for separate hearings.
As Colt Gray faced the judge, the families of the victims were sitting in the front row. One woman, that you can see here, was seen holding a stuffed animal, of the Disney character, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, cradling it in her arms.
The suspect is facing four counts of felony murder.
And the charges against his father, two counts of second degree murder, four counts of involuntary manslaughter, and eight counts of cruelty to children, are the most severe ever filed against an alleged school shooter's parent.
My next source, tonight, had unprecedented access to the first landmark prosecution, of the parents of a school shooter. Washington Post reporter, John Woodrow Cox.
And it's great to have you here, John.
Because you embedded with the Michigan prosecutors, as they were pursuing those charges, against Jennifer and James Crumbley. It was after their 15-year-old son killed four students, at his school shooting, back in 2021.
And when you look at this tonight, and we're just seeing something that we have rarely ever seen, in the United States before, I wonder what parallels you do see between that case, with the Crumbleys, and what's happening now in Georgia.
JOHN WOODROW COX, ENTERPRISE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST, EMBEDDED WITH CRUMBLEY FAMILY PROSECUTION: I mean, I think there are a lot, killing parallels, in fact. I mean, there's the -- there's the alleged history of warning signs. Certainly, in both cases, there's the allegation that, in each case, that the gun was a gift to the child.
And frankly, too, just the severity of the charges, right? I mean, a lot of the legal experts, I -- believe, these charges, last night, would have ever happened without Jennifer and James Crumbley being convicted, earlier this year.
COLLINS: Well, and also the speed of them. I mean, last night, when it came down--
WOODROW COX: Yes.
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: --that they were charging the dad, that was the first thing that came to mind for me was, had Michigan not happened, would this have happened as quickly at Georgia?
WOODROW COX: Yes, certainly, the legal experts I've talked to don't think so.
And as somebody, who's been in the heart of this issue, for a long time? I've been writing about kids getting access to their parents' guns for six, seven years. And for a long time, long time, this was an incredibly rare charge of any kind. We're talking about murder charges here. But even misdemeanor charges were virtually unheard of, for the parents of school shooters.
So, this is a really enormous leap, and especially in a place where Second Amendment rights are really held dear.
COLLINS: Yes.
WOODROW COX: It's a much more conservative place than we saw in Michigan. So, this is -- this is meaningful and significant for a lot of reasons.
COLLINS: So, when you were following those prosecutors, in Michigan, they were -- I mean, this is still untested. We don't know actually if they'll be successful here. We'll see what happens.
WOODROW COX: Yes.
COLLINS: And just, obviously, the evidence is important here.
What was the biggest concern from prosecutors? What were they worried about could potentially mess up their case?
WOODROW COX: Yes. I mean, prosecutors, attorneys, they want to decide things, based on precedent. They want precedent for anything that they do.
And there was no precedent for what Karen McDonald decided to do, in the State of Michigan. And there were people, in her own office, veteran attorneys in her own office, who were adamant that she not pursue those charges.
So, people have talked a lot about the precedent it set, and that it opened the door, and sort of provided cover for all these other prosecutors, maybe to pursue similar charges.
But the stakes were enormous. Because if you consider the alternative, if that case with those set of facts, really strong set of facts, if they're found not guilty, if there's an acquittal? Then, the idea that a prosecutor could ever hold another parent accountable, in a case like this, it's probably not going to happen. It's really unlikely.
COLLINS: Anything that stands out to you that seems different from what we've learned about Georgia? I mean, it's a lot of family members, telling The Post, and other outlets, the warning signs were there, the pleas for help were there. We know that we have the audio of the dad being interviewed by investigators--
WOODROW COX: Right.
COLLINS: --just last May. And then, months later, buys his 13-year-old son, an AR-15 as a Christmas present.
Anything that stands out, in this case, to you?
WOODROW COX: I think the weapon. I think the weapon itself.
I mean, that was a nine-millimeter in the State of Michigan. And the shooter there had been really focused on that particular weapon, and wanted to use it at a gun range. That was sort of the argument that had used.
How you justify buying a 14-year-old, if that is, in fact, what's proven to be true, buying a 14-year-old, an AR-15? That is -- that's a pretty stunning detail.
COLLINS: Yes, a lot of them here.
John Woodrow Cox, thank you, for your perspective, tonight.
WOODROW COX: Thanks for having me. COLLINS: We have more, tonight, on the big news, as voters are soon going to be casting their ballots, without knowing whether or not Donald Trump is going to be facing potential jail.
We have our legal experts here, on that major announcement and decision, by Judge Merchan, today.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A major ruling, today, from a New York judge, delaying Donald Trump's sentencing, for his hush money criminal conviction, until after the presidential election. The reason, Judge Juan Merchan says he wants to avoid any appearance of influencing the 2024 race. That sentencing is now set, for November 26th.
My legal sources are here to break it down.
Joey Jackson, CNN's Legal Analyst and a criminal defense attorney.
And also, Judge Shira Scheindlin, the former U.S. District Court Judge, for the Southern District of New York.
And so, Judge, looking at this ruling from Judge Merchan. We knew it was coming out today. He said, in part, "This is not a decision" that the "Court makes lightly, but it is the decision which" is, "in this Court's view, best advances the interests of justice."
Do you agree with him?
SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, RETIRED U.S. DISTRICT COURT JUDGE, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: I do. I think he made an absolutely right call. It is not a closed case, for me.
It would have been wrong to sentence him now, because whatever sentence he gave would upset half the people, one way or the other. And there's no point. He said it, I don't want to put a thumb on this scale before the election. So, he was pretty direct about that.
COLLINS: Yes, he was kind of in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, situation, Joey--
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FOUNDER, JOEY JACKSON LAW: Yes.
COLLINS: --in the sense of, of what this looks like.
But, I mean, he was arguing, Trump is going to get treated like any other defendant. But he is kind of technically getting different treatment, because he is running for president.
JACKSON: Great point, Kaitlan, without question. But I think, at the end of the day, for me, it comes down to confidence in our legal system. And obviously, if he would have sentenced him -- I think he was mindful of the political implications. He was mindful of what people would think about his decision and about any bias associated with it. That he was mindful of putting his thumb on the scale, in terms of whether it would influence the election. He says, in his opinion, 41 days out, or whatever the sentencing date would be. I believe that was the specific time.
And so, I think, I would agree with the judge that it was the absolute right call, in terms of the integrity of our system of justice.
COLLINS: Well, and Trump's legal team, they think this should be thrown out. But they were pleased with today's ruling, from a legal perspective. There's questions about the political aspect of it.
But what stood out to me were the words, if necessary.
SCHEINDLIN: I--
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: --Which means that's because Trump's team is arguing that, because of that Supreme Court immunity decision, that this conviction shouldn't stand at all, which is also a decision that Judge Merchan is going to face here.
SCHEINDLIN: Right. And he's going to make that just before the sentencing date. That's why he says, if necessary, to show that he's still thinking about what he's going to do. But I don't think there's a chance. I don't think there's a chance that he's going to overturn this conviction.
So, the only question was, is it the right time to impose sentencing? Trump remains a convicted felon. It makes no difference that he's not sentenced. He's still a convicted felon. And Harris can call him that all she wants, because it's true. So, they're just putting off the date of sentencing. It's the right thing to do.
COLLINS: Why do you think that there's no chance that he grants his immunity argument and throws it out?
SCHEINDLIN: Because there's so much evidence, that's obviously private conduct can't be official conduct, to pay a porn star off. It just can't be.
So, I know the arguments that, yes, there was some testimony, from a White House person, from Hope Hicks, this and that. But it's not enough to make a difference. It just doesn't change the calculus of the evidence in that case.
COLLINS: Well, and it was a pretty head-spinning day, as far as court decisions. Because, before that, Trump was in court for a hearing, appealing the E. Jean Carroll defamation findings found, obviously, liable for defaming her and sexually abusing her.
Joey, I was at the press conference, at Trump Tower, where he came out, and this is what he said after.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a made-up, fabricated story by somebody, I think, initially, just looking to promote a book. And when they called me, I denied the story. I got sued essentially for defamation, because I'm denying a story, where I'm right. I should be suing her for defamation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: He did try to sue her. The countersuit was thrown out because it had no merit. But my question, standing there was is, does this count as defamation again? I mean, what is this?
JACKSON: So, listen, but--
COLLINS: How does this work? Vicious cycle?
JACKSON: Yes, it really is. I mean, some people never learn. And so, that could be the case, right? But of course, we're in an election season. And, as a result, he has to do what he has to do.
I think that this particular case, the real allegation is, were these two witnesses, that were allowed to testify, did they move the needle in a way that would be so overly prejudicial?
And the two witnesses so everyone knows, are the witnesses about the groping and the attacking on the airplane, et cetera, the Access Hollywood tape, and whether or not that was so overwhelmingly prejudicial as to buttress E. Jean Carroll's testimony, to make it a no-brainer, in terms of the verdict.
This could end up in another court. You know that, Kaitlan? Because this is federal. And we do have something called SCOTUS, don't we, Supreme Court of the United States? And so, I think we'll see appeal, appeal, appeal. And who knows what they do.
COLLINS: Judge?
SCHEINDLIN: Supreme Court is not going to touch this one. I'm convinced of that. There's a basis and rules of evidence to allow this. I think it was used properly here. I don't think the 2nd Circuit is going to overturn this. But I've been wrong before.
COLLINS: But are you surprised, as a judge?
JACKSON: Very few times, though, Judge.
SCHEINDLIN: Right. Right.
COLLINS: Surprised, as a judge, to see him coming out and still talking about her?
SCHEINDLIN: I don't think anything surprises judges anymore, when it comes to Trump. He says what he wants to say. COLLINS: Judge Scheindlin, great to have you. Joey Jackson. Thank you both.
Right now, I should note, tonight, we are also, this hour, closely following this. Boeing Starliner's return home. What you're looking at is an empty space capsule. It is currently flying toward Earth, after it undocked from the International Space Station, about three hours ago.
The capsule took, initially, two astronauts to the Station, nearly three months ago. But they are still stuck on the ISS for another five to six months, because NASA deemed the capsule too risky, to carry the crew back to Earth.
CNN's Kristin Fisher is following all of the latest developments.
Kristin, I mean, first off, the fact that this is empty and coming back is notable in and of itself. But Boeing said it was safe for the crew to come back on this. Why did NASA disagree?
KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: NASA says, Kaitlan, that there was simply too much uncertainty, like how much risk is acceptable, when you've got two NASA astronauts' lives on the line. And there was just so much uncertainty and risk, frankly, surrounding these faulty, misfiring thrusters, Kaitlan.
And so, the NASA Administrator, Bill Nelson, said, when they announced this big decision, he said, Hey, NASA has made mistakes in the past with the Space Shuttle Challenger accident, with the Space Shuttle Columbia accident. He said, quite frankly, that those accidents were front of mind, when they were making this decision, and they just said that this level of risk was simply not a level of risk that NASA was willing to take.
And so, now, those two astronauts, Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams, Kaitlan, they had been training, in this life-size mockup of the International Space Station, here at the Johnson Space Center. They've been training to spend about eight days, up here. Now, of course, they're going to be spending about eight months, up at the International Space Station.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Yes, it's just remarkable, to see that timeline. But, I mean, I guess, this theory, of what Boeing is arguing, and what NASA is arguing, will be put to the test. I mean, we're going to see the reentry happen. All of this is taking place, in just the next four hours, tonight, alone.
So, what are you going to be watching for?
FISHER: I'm going to be watching how those thrusters perform, during the critical deorbit burn. And Kaitlan, that is really the moment of truth for this Starliner spacecraft.
If all those thrusters fire properly, if it's able to reenter the Earth's atmosphere, with the proper orientation, heat shield forward, the parachutes deploy, and it lands safely, in White Sands, New Mexico? Then, Boeing is going to be able to say, Hey, NASA, we told you so.
But again, from NASA's standpoint, there were major issues with Starliner, even if it does land safely beneath these parachutes in just a few hours. So again, from NASA's perspective, if there is even a little bit of risk? And they have a backup option now, the SpaceX Crew Dragon capsule. Then why take that risk?
But still, truly, Kaitlan, this is the moment of truth.
COLLINS: Yes.
FISHER: For Boeing, and its Starliner capsule.
COLLINS: And we're all going to be watching it very closely with you, Kristin Fisher.
Stick with CNN, tonight. Through the night, we're going to be having live coverage of the capsule's return to Earth. Minutes before midnight, it is going to enter the atmosphere, before it ultimately lands in Mexico. You'll see it all here on CNN.
Up next. A powerful reminder, from an extension of our CNN family that you will not want to miss, I promise.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: An important life lesson. Using your voice. That is what New York Times best-selling author, Alice Paul Tapper, teaches us, in her new children's book. The book was inspired by a near-fatal health incident and misdiagnosis that Alice experienced, when she was just 14-years-old.
And Alice Paul Tapper is here with me now. She is the Author of "Use Your Voice," a book that encourages everyone, especially kids, though, to speak up, and to advocate for themselves, when it comes to their health.
And Alice, I'm so excited to have you.
Because everyone has been through, you know, being a kid, you just instinctively trust adults. But when you went to the hospital, and you were in a lot of pain, you were misdiagnosed, by the doctors that you had trusted to help you. Tell us what happened next.
ALICE PAUL TAPPER, AUTHOR, "USE YOUR VOICE": When I was misdiagnosed, I felt betrayed. I learned so much, from this experience, by advocating for myself, and what happened. Coming back to school was really, really difficult for me. It was hard for me to reenter my life. And after my initial misdiagnosis, in the hospital, it -- I lost all my faith in adults, all my trust, in being a kid, looking up to adults.
COLLINS: Yes. And, I mean, everyone, I think, can understand that, given you had trusted them. And it was something that you were in severe pain. I mean, I remember talking to your dad about this, when it was happening.
And what I'm so impressed by, with your new book is, is how you not only learned, from a terrible experience that you went through, but you wanted to share what you learned, with other kids, even adults.
PAUL TAPPER: Yes.
COLLINS: And just what drove you to write this book?
PAUL TAPPER: After my illness, coming back to my life was really difficult. It aged me in a way that I can't -- it's hard to explain. But my friends were -- everything just was different. And I wanted to find justice for what happened to me. I felt coming home, and my family was different. Everything was different, after my misdiagnosis. And I wanted to find justice.
And I wanted to do this for the kids that don't have a dad that can call the head of the hospital, because that's what my dad had to do. My dad called out to the hospital, to get an X-ray, so I could figure out what was wrong with me. And that's how he found out that I had appendicitis.
And my dad, I'm so grateful for my privilege, and I know not every kid has that. So, I'm doing this. And I want to share my story for all the kids, out there, who don't have that privilege. And I'm -- know I'm so blessed.
And I just want to keep sharing my story to spread the message, of using your voice, and to warn people, and tell them that you are your best advocate, and to warn them about the dangers of misdiagnosis.
COLLINS: It's amazing to hear you say that, to talk about what you know, that you understand that, that you have a parent, who is -- who is fighting for you, and has the ability to do that. You have two incredible parents, I should note.
And I wonder, when I was reading through your book, obviously, kids can learn so much from this, about using their own voice, and speaking up, and advocating for themselves, in a situation like this.
But what would your advice be, for other parents, who are watching, in light of what you went through?
PAUL TAPPER: I think the parent perspective is so important. Because seeing what my parents had to do when I was so sick. I was relying on them for my whole life. And all I could do was tell the doctors how much pain I was in, and trust them, and trust my parents. And I think parents, the most important thing is to push for your kid. If your kid is telling you that they're still sick, that they feel sick, you need to believe them. You need to push for them, and to make sure that they get better.
[22:00:00]
Because no kid wants to be sitting in a hospital bed. Kids just want to go outside, and play, and hang out with their friends. And it's scary to be at the hospital. It's really scary to be shown a pain scale, and to advocate for yourself.
And parents just need to push for their kids and encourage them, to use their voice, and advocate for themselves.
COLLINS: Alice Paul Tapper, you certainly do that. And we are obviously so proud of you, and so grateful for you joining, and just sharing that experience, not just here on CNN, but also in your book. And I hope everyone reads it. Thank you, Alice.
PAUL TAPPER: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thank you so much, for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
