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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Says He Won't Debate Harris Again; Allies Warn Trump Against Hanging With Far-Right 9/11 "Truther"; Sources: DOJ To Charge Iranian Hackers Who Targeted Trump Campaign. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 12, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --is that a new one I have to learn?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: That's the next--
COOPER: That's the next thing, OK.
O'SULLIVAN: --that's the next -- yes.
COOPER: OK.
O'SULLIVAN: And they're using whatever comes off to TikTok, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: But yes, all the memes that are going around, a lot of those kind of have basis in misinformation. I mean, we've heard stories, conspiracy theories about J.D. Vance and pieces of furniture and things like that.
COOPER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Sometimes that joke goes too far, and some people, even Gen Z say, Oh, is this sort of thing true? So just as we're seeing on the right, the crazy stuff about eating cats and dogs and mice--
COOPER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: --in Ohio. A little bit happening on the left too.
COOPER: All right. Donie O'Sullivan, thanks very much.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Donald Trump declares no more debates as Vice President Harris is trying to goad him into a rematch.
What does Pete Buttigieg make of it all? I'll ask my lead source, live, in just a moment.
Plus, all the former President's friends. One of them is a 9/11 truther, apparently, who just accompanied him to none other than the 9/11 Memorial. Lindsey Graham says this person is toxic, and her words are disturbing.
And a major announcement is brewing, tonight, about that Iranian- backed effort to hack the Trump campaign.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
So, the debate rematch is off, apparently. Donald Trump rejecting Vice President Harris' challenge, as he returned to the campaign trail, today, for the first time since his first face-off with Harris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: As everyone saw two nights ago, we had a monumental victory over comrade Kamala Harris.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: She immediately called for a second debate, which means that she was like a prizefighter that lost a fight.
She was a no-show at the Fox debate, and refused also to do NBC and CBS.
So because we've done two debates, and because they were successful, there will be no third debate.
It's too late anyway. The voting has already begun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: "It's too late anyway. The voting has already begun." That sure doesn't sound like the Donald Trump that we saw and heard from just a few weeks ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So, we have those three dates. And those networks, they're very anxiously awaiting that date, and those dates.
We think we should do three debates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, what changed between then and now?
Perhaps ardent Trump supporter, Republican congressman, Mike Collins, can tell us. He posted right after the debate, on Tuesday night, quote, "You want to know who won? Find out who refuses to do a 2nd debate." It's probably not how the gentleman from Georgia's 10th District thought that tweet was going to age. Meanwhile, tonight, the Vice President is clearly hoping to change her opponent's mind, daring Trump, today, to a second showdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I believe we owe it to the voters to have another debate.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: Because this election and what is at stake could not be more important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As she was out on the campaign trail, today, the Vice President also mocked her rival's debate performance, during that return in North Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Donald Trump intends to end the Affordable Care Act.
(BOOING)
HARRIS: Now, think about that. Think about that.
As he said in the debate, he made clear he has no plan to replace it. In fact, you remember? Concepts. You remember. He has, quote, concepts of a plan, which means no actual plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the Harris campaign is predicting to CNN tonight that they do think there will ultimately be another debate. We're hearing from one official, who said they're not taking Trump at face value, when he says the debate's rough (ph), arguing instead that he changes his position every day.
Trump's own allies were telling me, just as of yesterday, they thought he would certainly show up for round two. We will all have to stay tuned.
But in the meanwhile, my lead source, tonight, is the former presidential candidate, and the former Mayor of South Bend, Indiana, Pete Buttigieg, who I should note is here in his personal capacity, not as the Transportation Secretary.
What did you make of Trump saying today, no more debates, between him and Harris?
PETE BUTTIGIEG, (D) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, (D) FORMER MAYOR OF SOUTH BEND, INDIANA: Well, I remember back, when he was saying any time, any place. But what changed, of course, is he got beat. He doesn't like being beat. He doesn't like being embarrassed. So, I'm not totally surprised that he's changed his position, backed off, and doesn't want to go through that again.
COLLINS: Do you think that there will ultimately be another match? Do you think he'll be able to? Because you and I talked about this last time. You said that you thought Trump was scared to go on the debate stage with her. Do you think there will ultimately be another one?
[21:05:00]
BUTTIGIEG: Hard to say. There may come a point, where the dynamics build against him, and he decides he needs to do something, anything, to shift attention from her winning message. Maybe that would motivate him to change his strategy. I'm beyond trying to predict what his strategy will be in the future.
What I do know is it was a great night for her, and it was a really rough night for him.
And I think the most important thing about it was that, if you watched the debate, he really talked about three things. He talked about himself, most of all. He talked about her quite a bit. And he talked about Joe Biden quite a bit.
She, as much as possible, was talking about you, about the American voter, about the American people.
And that's the most important difference, in this whole campaign, that he is focused on himself, and to some extent, still, even now focused on Joe Biden.
And she is focused on the big question the voters are asking, which is, how's my life going to be different under a Kamala Harris presidency, where she's focused on things like affordability, a fairer tax code, protecting a woman's right to choose, versus if he becomes president again, and we are thrown back to the kind of chaos that we experienced with him the first time around.
COLLINS: Do you think that she needs another debate, though? Because he's obviously a pretty well-known quality -- quantity. He already been president. He's run again.
She's much newer to the American electorate. And you see that in the polls, when it comes to those undecided voters. Does she need another debate, closer to Election Day, in your view?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, again, I think the debate went well for her, because it was an opportunity to actually talk about the difference in their visions and the difference in their records. But it's not the only way to get that across.
And you see her campaigning proactively and energetically around the country, to continue to get that message out. You'll see the same from Tim Walz, of course, and her supporters. And I think that will be the most important element, to continuing to take her message to voters and earn this victory.
She'll be the first to say, there's still an underdog dynamic here. She's going to have to work to gain every inch of political ground here. But that's exactly what she's doing.
COLLINS: Well, when you ran, I mean, you really saturated the media market, in the sense of your strategy was to go anywhere, to talk to anyone, to really build that name recognition. It obviously worked for you.
Is that something she should replicate in the sense of interviews, press conferences, not just the campaign trail appearances that we've been seeing?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, every candidate figures out a mix and a style that works best for them. Some are more focused on covering a lot of geography, and traveling a lot. Some are focused on more retail. Some prefer town halls. Some prefer interviews.
What I will say is that she has done well in every test that's been thrown at her. I remember, early on, when she came out of the gate so well, people said, Well, yes, she's doing great now. But after the honeymoon week ends, then it won't go so well. And yet, she did. And they said, Well, it's going well for her now, but once she sits down for a big interview, things will change. Sat down for a big interview, went great. Same thing with the debate.
But again, she'll be the first to say that this is going to be a roller coaster. Look, eight weeks is, in one sense, it's the blink of an eye. In another sense, it's a political eternity. And every campaign will have good days and bad days, advances and setbacks. And I think she's done a good job of preparing her supporters and her campaign for that.
But again, the most important thing is that every day she's talking about the American people, about what she's going to do, to continue to create jobs, what she's going to do to grow small businesses in this country, what she's going to do to help with child care. Something that Donald Trump seems literally, almost physically incapable of talking about. Every time he gets a question about it, you get a strange ramble that raises the question of whether he's ever actually considered child care policy seriously.
And she's very sensitive (ph) about it. Wants to expand the Child Tax Credit. Wants to make sure that we have paid parental leave, in this country. So that's going to continue, and I think that's how she's going to win.
COLLINS: Yes, that answer you're referencing, is the one he gave to the New York Economic Club, last week, that didn't really provide any alternate -- any concrete legislation that he would support.
BUTTIGIEG: That's being polite. It was gibberish.
COLLINS: But on the debate itself. Obviously, debates are good. They are informative. People get a chance to look at these two candidates, who want access to the nuclear codes themselves.
But from a political calculus, does it move the needle any -- you know, she had a strong performance, on Tuesday night. But when you look at, you know, there's one major poll that's come out, and it's just one, but it doesn't show much of a big shift for her. Does it actually boost her standing? What does it look like?
BUTTIGIEG: I think it matters. But nothing, no one night, no one event, no one appearance, no one debate, is going to decide this.
As a matter of fact, now we're getting into the stage of the campaign, where the thing that's going to decide it most is that groundwork, that organizing, people who believe it is important that she win, reaching out to friends, doing the door-knocking, the things that it really takes to gain that ground.
[21:10:00]
Look, for better and for worse, in today's America, any presidential campaign is a game of inches. It's high -- high floors, low ceilings, for both of these candidates. And she knows that.
COLLINS: What do you make of what we're hearing, from Trump's allies, tonight, and Trump himself, who say whoever calls for a rematch, immediately, it's a sign that they lost the debate?
BUTTIGIEG: I don't think anybody -- well, obviously they're obliged to say otherwise. But I don't think anybody objective thinks that she didn't win this debate. Certainly, when you look at what independent voters had to say about it, what most Americans had to say about it.
But again, look, just because you won the debate, which she did, doesn't mean you get to win the election. That's why she got right back out there, and is back to work, trying to earn more votes.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point. People argued Hillary Clinton won the debates in 2016. Obviously, she did not win the election.
There was a moment, though, on the stage, where we were all talking about Trump after, and obviously what he was saying. But there were a few things that Harris herself said that stood out to me. Just take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: What Goldman Sachs has said is that Donald Trump's plan would make the economy worse. Mine would strengthen the economy.
In this election I actually have the endorsement of 200 Republicans, who have formally worked with President Bush, Mitt Romney, and John McCain, including the endorsement of former Vice President Dick Cheney and Congressmember Liz Cheney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: She also talked about owning a gun and the Second Amendment. I mean, that is not the Kamala Harris you saw running in 2019, obviously a Democratic primary then.
But what do you make of hearing that from a Democratic nominee, bragging about Goldman Sachs approving their economic plan, a Dick Cheney endorsement, talking about how they own a firearm?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, she's done a lot to remind the Democrats of why we're excited about her. But it's also her job to expand the coalition. And she's giving us a lot of good reasons why you don't have to be a Democrat to want her to win.
I think, pointing out that, even the business community. I mean, Goldman Sachs is about as respected as it gets, in a part of the business community that's usually considered more conservative. But even they are looking at the Trump plan, saying, Yes, this is bad for the economy.
She's reminding people that she's not the caricature that they would portray, as they always do, of any Democrat, that they're going to come take all your guns away. That's just not true.
And I think it's especially notable, matter of fact, I think, unprecedented, that so many people from his party are going out there and saying, vote for her. I mean, the idea that you would have a coalition, in this country, that includes people from, people like Bernie Sanders, to people like me, to people like Dick Cheney, all saying, for different reasons, but all saying Donald Trump has no business being president, you got to elect Kamala Harris, is important.
But the other thing is, it's not just Republicans, who have worked for George Bush, who are saying you should vote for Kamala Harris.
A shockingly large proportion of Republicans, who worked for Donald Trump, people he picked, are turning around and saying -- either not saying anything, withholding their endorsement, which itself is very telling, or saying that you really shouldn't be voting for him.
That is the most telling thing of all. Not just establishment Republicans that he never liked anyway. His own people are running, screaming for the hills, saying don't put this guy back in power.
COLLINS: I think Dick Cheney technically formally endorsed her before Bernie Sanders has formally endorsed her, though he obviously supports her.
Pete Buttigieg, I do want to ask you about what's happening in Springfield. So stick around, if you will.
We're going to take a quick break and be right back out of this, because from dogs to geese, we are still hearing false claims, being made by Donald Trump, about Haitian migrants and pets in Ohio.
Also, this comes as tonight, some of his top allies are warning him about hanging out with a 9/11 truther, including one you may not expect.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: On the campaign trail, in Arizona, today, Donald Trump repeated a false claim that Haitian immigrants, in Springfield, Ohio, are abducting people's pets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The recording of 9-1-1 calls even show residents are reporting that the migrants are walking off with the town's geese. They're taking the geese. You know where the geese are? In the park. In the lake. And even walking off with their pets. My dog's been taken. My dog's been stolen. This can only happen. These people are the worst.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: He is repeating something that he amplified to 67 million people, on Tuesday night, during that debate, except then, of course, Trump said that they are not only taking pets, but also eating them.
As officials have said, and we have repeated endlessly on air, there are no credible reports that that is happening.
Pete Buttigieg is back with me.
And I think what's important about this is that this isn't just something that's happening online, or on the debate stage. The City Hall, in Springfield, Ohio, today, had to be evacuated because of a bomb threat. Luckily, everything was OK.
But just to see the impact that something like this could be having on people's lives. What do you make of what -- what's happening?
BUTTIGIEG: This is a strategy. And there's even more to it than demonizing immigrants, although that's obviously part of what he's doing.
This is a strategy to get us talking about the latest crazy thing that he did, whatever urban legend he amplifies. Right now, it's about people eating cats or geese or whatever. Because he cannot afford for us to be talking about his record.
He doesn't want us talking about the fact that we lost manufacturing jobs, on his watch, even before COVID, which is why the United Auto Workers are against him.
[21:20:00]
He doesn't want us talking about the fact that his main economic policy promise he actually kept was to cut taxes for the rich.
He doesn't want us talking about how he demolished the right to choose, in this country, that he's the reason that even IVF could be banned, in many places, in this country.
The last thing he wants us to do is to talk about his record or his agenda. So, what he wants us talking about is whatever crazy nonsense he can thrust, into the center of the internet and the media conversation, which this week happens to be the stuff about eating cats or dogs or geese or whatever. Same thing (ph) tomorrow.
COLLINS: So, you think it's just a distraction technique?
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, I mean, but it's one that isn't harmless, right? It's affecting this community, and it contributes to this bigger picture of demonizing immigrants. But again, this is strategic.
I don't give him credit for much. But whether it's this, whether it's blurting out a racist remark in a auditorium full of Black journalists, as he did a few weeks ago, whether it's choosing 9/11, of all days, to invite a 9/11 truther, who said it was an inside job, with him, right? All of these things are to a purpose.
And the purpose is to do something so outrageous that we have to talk about it, that journalists have to go in, if for no other reason than to run it down and debunk it when it's false, and to try to suck up all the oxygen into that, so that we're not talking about his profoundly unpopular policy agenda, Project 2025, and all of the failures of his actual time in office.
COLLINS: Yes, of course, the Project 2025 founder -- Trump -- they've tried to distance themselves from that.
But it's interesting what you say about why they're saying this. Because I spoke to Senator J.D. Vance, after the debate, and pressed him on this. And he kind of said essentially that they were, even if it wasn't true, they were glad they were bringing it up, because it drew attention to what's happening in Springfield.
Listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH), 2024 VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We've heard from a number of constituents on the ground, Kaitlan, who both first- hand and second-hand reports saying this stuff is happening. So, they very clearly, meaning, the people on the ground, dealing with this, think that it is happening.
COLLINS: Senator, you talked about that your office has gotten a lot of reports. I mean, if someone calls your office and says they saw Bigfoot, that doesn't mean they saw Bigfoot. Why -- I mean, you have a sense of responsibility, as a running mate, and he certainly does, as the candidate, to not promote false information, right?
VANCE: But Kaitlan, it's a totally fair point. But nobody's calling my office and saying that they saw Bigfoot. What they're calling and saying is, we are seeing migrants kidnap our dogs and cats, and city officials aren't doing anything about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The other part of that answer was he was saying that even if they have to meme their way, to get attention, on Springfield, which has had 20,000 Haitian migrants move there, which is more nuanced than how it's been portrayed, he was saying, it's basically kind of worth spreading information that may not be true, that we know is not true.
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, there's lots of different simultaneous reasons why he's going to spread lies. I still think the main one has to do with distracting from their own agenda, and the things that make the Trump- Vance ticket, and policies, and J.D. Vance in particular, so unpopular.
Now, there's also obviously a pretty dark and twisted picture that he's painting of immigration. Earlier today, I saw that J.D. Vance went on TV, and said that if immigration were part of how countries become prosperous, then, quote, America would be the most prosperous country in the world. Which makes me wonder, what country does J.D. Vance think is the most prosperous country in the world, since he doesn't think it's America.
And also, does he really think that immigration has nothing to do with American prosperity? Most Americans disagree.
By the way, most Americans also disagree with Donald Trump's decision to kill the bipartisan border bill that Kamala Harris has pledged that she would sign, if it came to her.
So, rather than have us talking about that, he wants us talking about people allegedly eating cats, which is not happening.
And then, the other thing they'll do, of course, is, because this is a country of 300 million people, they'll probably, sooner or later, find some case, where somebody somewhere did something weird (ph) to a cat, and try to make that into a reason to prolong this debate, so that we could be talking about anything but Donald Trump's track record of destroying jobs in this country, and destroying the right to choose, and the fact that, if given the chance to do so again, that's what he would double down on.
COLLINS: You brought up the -- how Trump sunk the bipartisan immigration plan that Lankford and Murphy and others put together.
Harris brought that up too, on the debate stage. It's been the one point that she turns to, on immigration, which is one of her weakest polling areas, immigration and the economy.
Is that enough for voters to just say, Well, Trump sunk this plan that didn't come about until about earlier this year, February or March, and therefore, he's being hypocritical. Or do voters deserve to hear more about what she would do on immigration?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think certainly it's an important data point from the past that tells you how unserious they are about solving the problem. In fact, they need the problem to get worse, so they can keep campaigning on it.
[21:25:00]
But I do agree that every election is about the future. That's why she talked about what she would do, if a bill like that came to her desk. Every issue that we're talking about the recent past, it's with a view toward the future.
So for example, when she points out the fact that in this administration, they were able to get the cost of insulin for seniors down to $35, it's not just that that's a thing that happened, and therefore we should be rewarded politically. It's that if Republicans stopped blocking us, we could have $35 a month insulin for every American, and not only for seniors.
Whether it's an issue like that, an issue like climate, where it's not just that we had the Inflation Reduction Act passed, it was major climate legislation. But in the next few years, all of these auto manufacturing jobs and clean energy jobs happening in places like Northern Indiana, where I grew up, will either be destroyed by Donald Trump, gutting that legislation. Or those jobs will continue to grow by somebody serious about climate change. That's what's going to happen next.
So, I do agree that on issue after issue, the past is a source of evidence on what will happen next, but the most important thing is what will happen in the future.
COLLINS: Right.
BUTTIGIEG: And another big theme of the debate was Kamala Harris talking about the future, and representing even a generational contrast to Donald Trump--
COLLINS: But on immigration--
BUTTIGIEG: --talking about the past.
COLLINS: --she was asked, would you have done something differently than how President Biden did? I mean, for example, he did not sign the executive orders, curbing asylum, and taking these tougher actions on the border, until in the last few months.
Some people may look at that and say, Well, she was there the last three and a half years. Should there have been more action sooner?
BUTTIGIEG: Those executive orders were a response to Congress failing, although Congress tried. Because Donald Trump went in, intervened and prevented any progress from being made.
But again, the point is, what's going to happen next? She's been clear what she will do next. And we're also pretty clear.
By the way, you know who wasn't clear on what they're going to do next, as President, whenever the going got tough, was Donald Trump.
He was given the opportunity to say whether he wanted Ukraine to defeat Russia, and he wouldn't say it. He wouldn't say that he wanted Ukraine to win.
He was given the opportunity to say if he would veto a national abortion ban, and he didn't say that he would veto it, which, to me, is a pretty strong indication that he would sign it. COLLINS: Yes. Pete Buttigieg, thank you so much for your time, tonight, for being here.
BUTTIGIEG: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next, as Mr. Buttigieg just mentioned, it is a conspiracy theorist, who said 9/11 was an inside job, in a big red meme. Now she was at the 9/11 Memorial, yesterday, with Donald Trump. We're going to take a closer look at the woman you see here on your screen.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It's not very often that Senator Lindsey Graham and Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene agree on something. But those two Trump allies found common ground, today, as they jointly rebuked the far-right activist, self-proclaimed supporter of white nationalism, and also, to top it off, 9/11 truther, that Donald Trump has been surrounding himself with for months.
Listen to Marjorie Taylor Greene today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I have concerns about her rhetoric and her hateful tone. I think they're a huge problem. And that doesn't represent MAGA as a whole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: She's talking there about Laura Loomer. You may not know this name, unless you're on the internet. But she was seen here getting off Donald Trump's plane, in Philadelphia, just before the debate, on Tuesday.
She was then part of his entourage, the next day, September 11th, the 23rd anniversary of the attacks, accompanying him to the 9/11 ceremonies that day. That is, despite how she once described the worst terror attack, on American soil, as a, quote, "Inside job." Yes, she really did. Look at the post there.
She told CNN today that she didn't see what the issue is, about her going to the 9/11 Memorial with Donald Trump.
And all of this may not exactly be surprising to you, if you're listening, given the rotating cast of people, who are often vying to place themselves, in Donald Trump's orbit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): I've talked to the former President a couple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I talk to the President as much as I need to.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I spoke with the President.
KEVIN MCCARTHY, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: I spoke with the President on Monday night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But those are Republican politicians.
Trump's history of meeting with extremists is visible, from the guestlist of his clubs at times. Remember when he dined with Nick Fuentes, at Mar-a-Lago, someone who is a white supremacist and Holocaust denier.
Here's Donald Trump (ph) with Loomer, toasting what they said was the hostile takeover. This is Loomer and Fuentes, I should note, toasting what they said was the hostile takeover of the Republican Party.
Meantime, the rapper, formerly known as Kanye West, who made white nationalist and anti-Semitic comments, also got a White House meeting once, and was seen at Mar-a-Lago.
The question is, why is this outraging Trump's allies now, people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lindsey Graham. We've been talking to people. It's because Loomer has the President's ear at a moment where he's in a tightly locked race, against Vice President Harris, and a lot of them fear that she's going to be a distraction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Laura, how are you? You look so beautiful as always. That's a woman with courage. You don't want to be -- you don't want to be Loomered.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: To be Loomered means something like this. Phasing one of the protests that she has spent years staging, like when she handcuffed herself, outside of the Twitter headquarters.
[21:35:00]
Or, when she went to Iowa, before the caucuses there, to confront Governor Ron DeSantis in a hotel lobby. That was when she was accusing his wife of playing up her breast cancer diagnosis to generate sympathy.
Laura Loomer has backed conspiracy theories about vaccines, celebrated the deaths of migrants, and also made false claims about employees of the federal government, and the New York judge who handled the Trump hush money case, just to name a few.
Here's how he talks about her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: It's great to have you, and you've been really very special. You work hard, and you are a -- you are a very opinionated lady, I have to tell you that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The New York Times reporters, Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, reported in April, last year, that Trump wanted to hire her officially for his campaign. Outrage ensued over that report, and it ultimately didn't happen. But maybe it didn't need to.
My sources are from the left and the right, tonight. Paul Begala and Sarah Chamberlain. Thankfully, not conspiracy theorists.
And Sarah, thinking about this, I don't think it's a surprise. Trump likes Laura Loomer. I've talked to people about this. He talks to her a lot. This definitely is not the first time she's been on the plane lately.
But I think when his political allies look at this, these two months before the election, they want to bring in moderate voters, does this help with that?
SARAH CHAMBERLAIN, PRESIDENT & CEO, REPUBLICAN MAIN STREET PARTNERSHIP: It absolutely does not. And it kind of scares them.
She has her place. She fires up his base. And obviously, he enjoys her company.
But right now, to win the election, he needs the middle-of-the-road, the Republicans, who aren't with him yet, kind of the Haley people. And then, he needs middle-of-the-road Democrats, who are willing to switch over, and then the Independents. None of this helps in that. I mean, she just turns them off.
I was in Nebraska, last night. They're like, Who is this woman? And why would we vote for a man, who keeps her close by? And he needs to win these people. It's one electoral vote there, where I was last night.
COLLINS: Well, and I think the question I've heard from people, Paul, is the influence she has on him. I mean, Donald Trump says enough things, on his own. I think even his closest allies would agree to that.
But what she says, and what he reposts. And we're in a moment, where they're blaming Haitian migrants for abducting pets, and whatnot. The idea of the bad influences on him makes even worse for those around him.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, he seeks them out, doesn't he? I mean, he is a former President. He can get advice from anyone he wants. Well, with half the country, OK? Half the country can't stand him. But half the country, 40 percent loves him. Why? Well, he used to have, oh say, Rex Tillerson, who ran the largest corporation in the world, ExxonMobil, Secretary of State. You know what he said? Mr. Trump is an effing moron.
He had Jim Mattis, a four-star general. What did he say? He said Trump has the understanding of a fifth or sixth grader.
He had General H.R. McMaster, who called him an idiot, a dope. I mean, on and on, I could go on.
He had quality people, I wouldn't agree with them on politics or policy, but they're quality people, and they've all run away from him like the devil runs from holy water. So, he's down now to the Laura Loomers of the world, because that's where he wants to get advice.
COLLINS: I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who herself was not a stranger to conspiracies, which she later apologized for, and said she was reading misinformation, fed misinformation. She and Laura Loomer, have had a long-standing feud, which I think is part of what you're seeing today. But for her to come out and say this is bad stuff does tell you something, no?
CHAMBERLAIN: Sure does. I mean, she's very controversial, in her own right, so we need to pay attention to her. She knows. She wants Donald Trump to win. We want to get the White House. We're not going to do it this way. We've got to go get those Independents.
BEGALA: You know what else she knows? Her State of Georgia has a surging population--
CHAMBERLAIN: Absolutely.
BEGALA: --of Asian American Pacific Islanders, OK? The turnout in that community, in Georgia, jumped 84 percent between 2016 and 2020.
CHAMBERLAIN: Right.
BEGALA: It is booming there. And maybe I'm ascribing too much political acumen to Congresswoman Greene, but maybe not. I know the data, though. This is where the voters are. Many of them are very moderate. They are definitely in play. They're predominantly Democratic now, but they are in play.
And it could be that the Congresswoman from Georgia knows that Georgia has this huge pool, and rising every day that turn out. I just -- I just looked up. Registration rather is through the roof among--
COLLINS: Yes.
CHAMBERLAIN: Right.
BEGALA: --among AAPI Americans as well.
COLLINS: Yes. It's a remarkable moment. We'll leave it there, and see if we continue to see her flying around with the former President.
Paul Begala. Sarah Chamberlain. Thank you both.
Tonight, Harris and Trump are both staking out different but potential paths to 270. They're in two different battleground states, North Carolina and Arizona.
We are going to take a closer look at where the numbers stand. We've got two political insiders, here with us, on which of these candidates has the clearest path to victory.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we are seeing the first major poll that was conducted since the Trump-Harris showdown, on Tuesday night.
The post-debate survey from Reuters and Ipsos shows Vice President Harris with a slight edge over former President Trump, which means that right now, there is little change in the state of the presidential race. That's about where things stood two weeks ago.
Now, of course, more could change in the coming days. This is just one poll. And we always say polls are just a snapshot. But both candidates were certainly campaigning like it's a tight race, today, out in respective battleground states.
You see Harris on the right. She was touring in North Carolina, which Trump won narrowly in 2020, but her camp believes is in play in 2024.
Meanwhile, Trump was on a -- rallying in Arizona, relitigating his 2020 election loss in that state, a state that he won in 2016.
My sources tonight at the table are two political insiders.
Democratic pollster, Margie Omero.
And the Editor and Publisher of Inside Elections, Nathan Gonzales.
[21:45:00]
So Margie, when you see what happens, on Tuesday night. The pundits agree and seem to believe that Harris won that debate. Should there be a noticeable polling bounce, this close? Or is there ever going to be one? What does that normally look like?
MARGIE OMERO, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: Well, it takes a little while. I mean, because, well, one, polls take a little while to conduct.
And there are -- people are processing the news as they're hearing. It's not just watching the debate as it's happening. They're also getting -- they may have only watched a little bit of the debate, or not watched the debate, and hearing what people thought, seeing clips, watching on TikTok, whatever it is.
And then, by the time they are called by a pollster, and then that poll comes out of the field, and is launched out into the world, that may not be a week or so after the debate.
So, it's not a surprise to me that the change that we see is small or within the margin of error, because it may take a little while.
If there is any change? Because ultimately there're going to be voters who are going to view a debate through the lens of the candidate that they supported before the debate started. And Democrats are going to emerge feeling pretty excited, like I did, watching the debate, and there may be Republicans who emerged, saying, this is what I like about Donald Trump.
NATHAN GONZALES, EDITOR & PUBLISHER, INSIDE ELECTIONS: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes. And it's a just small slice of the electorate that we're really even looking at, that are the undecided voters.
GONZALES: Right, and I'm skeptical, with the proximity to the debate, like what Margie was talking about.
But also, I feel like a broken record, it's a national poll, and we don't have a national election in this country. So, let's wait a few days, and let's start to get polls out of North Carolina, Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and see how those voters, the independent voters, in those key seven states, how did they react to the debate, and did it matter?
COLLINS: What did you hear from Trump, today, when he was on the trail, in Arizona, in what -- and appealing to those voters, and who they are trying to reach?
GONZALES: I mean, relitigating the path to 2020 election is not a winning strategy.
And we know part of this, specifically in Arizona, because Kari Lake, the candidate, the Republican nominee, who lost the 2022 gubernatorial race, she wouldn't -- she can't give that up, that she lost that. And that has hurt her standing. If she had just lost that close race and moved on, she would probably be in stronger position in the Senate race, this year.
But Trump's using the same strategy, and I don't think that's going to be effective in Arizona.
COLLINS: I think she is still disputing it, and still was arguing--
GONZALES: She still thinks she's governor, I mean (ph).
COLLINS: --even as she embarked on, on her Senate campaign.
And Margie, when you look at Pennsylvania, obviously that has been an area that is, it is a must win for either of these two candidates. And this has been something that we've been trying to drill in on, when it comes to voters and what this looks like there.
Harris had her own strategy there. I just want you to listen to what she had to say about this, at the debate. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Putin would be sitting in Kyiv with his eyes on the rest of Europe. Starting with Poland. And why don't you tell the 800,000 Polish Americans right here in Pennsylvania how quickly you would give up for the sake of favor and what you think is a friendship with what is known to be a dictator who would eat you for lunch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, the 800,000 Polish Americans living in Pennsylvania was a very targeted shout-out--
OMERO: Right.
COLLINS: --from Philadelphia.
OMERO: Right. Right. I mean, look, she's demonstrating -- this is the difference between Harris and Trump, in that debate, but also all the rest of the time, which is, she's speaking to the American people.
She looked at the camera. She's talking to voters. She's telling stories about different kinds of voters. She's talking about what her plan would be, to help Americans.
And he's talking about himself. He's talking about himself, how great he is, what -- how much he inherited, where he went to school, whatever it is, like he's talking about himself, in a way that is people are, you know, don't seem to like anymore.
GONZALES: In Pennsylvania, look like it was a must-win for Biden, and it's traditionally been a must-win for the Democratic candidate. If she -- but it looks like it's being stubborn for Harris. I mean, it seems like she hasn't bounced back quite as much compared to the other swing states.
COLLINS: Yes, she's underwater there compared to Michigan or Wisconsin.
GONZALES: Yes. And if she doesn't--
COLLINS: Why do you think that is?
GONZALES: Well, if she doesn't win Pennsylvania, she needs to win North Carolina or Georgia. And the fact that we're talking about North Carolina now is a -- that's a difference between where the race was with Biden versus Trump. North Carolina looked like it was solidly with Trump. And now, it's a toss-up, and that's good news for Harris.
COLLINS: Does she need to have North Carolina and Georgia?
GONZALES: I think you need to win four of the seven toss-ups, and at least, I think she can do it with a combination of other states, with North Carolina or Georgia.
COLLINS: Well, what do you see about them? I mean, that's the one path to 270. What do you see?
OMERO: Yes. I mean, look, the -- by expanding the map, you're creating more opportunities, and you're also forcing the other side to spend money and resources to keep up. And so, that's what you're seeing.
And that's a strategy that all campaigns up and down the ticket are doing, and to make sure that they are where they need to be, but also forcing the other side to spend resources that maybe they didn't want to spend.
GONZALES: Yes.
COLLINS: Well, and how does that help with what Harris raised in the 24 hours since the debate? I believe it was about $47 million, if I'm not totally misstating that number. But I believe that's in the neighborhood of what they -- the Harris campaign says she raised in those 24 hours.
GONZALES: I mean, the more money you have, the more places you're able to communicate. Some of these states are going to be so saturated, they're going to be looking for other places.
[21:50:00]
Probably the big prize, if Democrats have a lot of money is, can they reach back into Florida, and pull Florida back into play? I don't think it's there yet. But that would be huge.
OMERO: Well, on top of that, when you talk about, for example, Arizona, and North Carolina, those are states that are about 20 percent voters of color, Hispanic voters and Black voters. And so, the targeting. It's great to have options, right? And more money gives you options to do the kind of targeting and outreach to those communities, to make sure getting out the vote.
COLLINS: Those poor souls in Pennsylvania. I've got a glimpse of the ads. They are non-stop on the TV channels.
Margie Omero. Nathan Gonzales.
OMERO: Thank you.
COLLINS: Great to have you both. Thank you so much.
Up next. The U.S. government is now preparing, tonight, to have criminal charges in the hacking of the Trump campaign, a story we've been following closely, here. It is backed by Iran. We'll tell you more about what those charges could look like, right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, the Justice Department is preparing to file criminal charges against Iranian-backed hackers, who carried out a complex hack-and-leak operation against the Trump campaign.
Officials believe that the hackers work for Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard. It was what was behind it. And they specifically targeted internal Trump campaign emails and documents, all in an attempt to influence the 2024 election.
We are told tonight these charges could come as soon as next week.
My source, tonight, is Chris Krebs, who served as the nation's top election security official before he was fired by Donald Trump for saying that the 2020 election was safe and secure.
On these charges that we're told they're imminent. First, what do you make of the impact, and are they actually followed by arrests, indictments? I mean, what does this look like?
CHRIS KREBS, FORMER SENIOR OFFICIAL, DHS, CHIEF INTELLIGENCE & PUBLIC POLICY OFFICER, SENTINELONE: Well, that tends to be the challenge.
Because these hackers, whether they're Iranian, or the Russian hackers we heard about last week, out of the SVR, the Military Intelligence Unit, they stay in safe havens, safe harbors. There is no extradition treaty with Russia or with Iran. So, they tend to be beyond the arm's length of American law enforcement.
However, they are constrained to Iran or Russia, and they will not be leaving. Because if they do touch ground in France, for instance, or somewhere else, they will get swooped up.
But there are a couple other elements of these indictments. They are very clear messaging and signaling tools. They say, Hey, we know who you are. We are seeing inside your infrastructure. We know how you're operating.
And the fact that they can pull together an indictment so quickly? Yes, they may have been starting -- they may have started the investigation, back in June. But the fact they're able to pull together an indictment, potentially for unsealing, next week, shows that law enforcement, and the intelligence community are poised, they're ready to go, and they are taking it very seriously, in what is a very serious election.
COLLINS: Does that work as a deterrence of sort?
KREBS: Absolutely.
COLLINS: I mean, they're obviously saying this. We're eight months -- or eight weeks out from the election. And that's the concern, I think, people have, is, what does this activity look like, the closer we get to November 5th.
KREBS: It is a deterrence measure. It's deterrence by cost and position. Now, you may not, again, be arresting them, but you're constraining them within geographic boundaries. They are staying within Iran. But again, we are showing them that we know how they operate. We are uncovering and tearing down, likely, some of the command and control infrastructure that they are using, to launch these hacks and that, to share the stolen information. We are exposing it. We are taking it off the table. And it is causing them to use their energy, their own time and resources, to rebuild their infrastructure.
COLLINS: One thing that's notable about this is how in 2016, the DOJ was caught flat-footed, the intelligence community overall was caught flat-footed, it seemed, by the level of Russian interference, in the election, and what that ultimately looked like.
What do you make of how their officials, maybe not always on the record, but in indictments and in statements, are talking about what they're seeing happening to these campaigns?
KREBS: Well, there's been an, you know, kind of an arc of improvement since 2016.
So, you'll recall, in 2020, there were hackers that were out of a proxy unit for the intelligence services in Iran that pretended to be the Trump -- rather, the Proud Boys. They sent intimidating emails out to voters in several states. They found confidential data. That, again, that was exposed in about 72 hours.
We were, I was at the Department of Justice, alongside FBI Director Wray, and the Director of National Intelligence Ratcliffe. And we said, These are Iranians. They are doing this. Americans, take this seriously, but also we are looking out for it. Though -- there were subsequent indictments there.
We are seeing an even faster unveiling now. And so that, in my view, is good, that we're deep -- that we're investigating, we're on top of it, and we're declassifying rapidly, to call out bad actors. But also, convey to the American people that we are taking this seriously, we are ready to go, and we're going to protect this election.
COLLINS: But does it worry you? Are we going to see more of this, more attempts at election interference before November?
KREBS: I think it's -- goes without saying, yes, absolutely. And this is a key point, because these are not ad hoc, one-off activities. So the hack and leak against the Trump campaign was not a single event. It's part of a bigger strategy.
COLLINS: Yes, they tried it against the Biden campaign at the time as well.
KREBS: And it is just one kind of -- I said -- I had a tweet about this, the other day, or X, whatever we're calling it. But I said, to McKinsey-fy the strategy of Iran and Russia, they have entire strategies with workstreams, and this was one workstream amongst multiple. Now, whether those are successful or they land remains to be seen.
But we should absolutely expect multiple other activities, both out of Iran, Russia and even in China and beyond.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, we saw -- part of this was we reported that they targeted one of Trump's attorneys.
KREBS: Yes.
COLLINS: It doesn't appear it was successful. But they're targeting key people.
[22:00:00]
KREBS: Yes, look, they're going to go at those that are either in the immediate orbit of the former President.
COLLINS: Yes.
KREBS: Or those that are right outside of it to have the access and ability to reach in.
COLLINS: Yes.
KREBS: And again, we should expect more of this, not just up to the election, but after it.
COLLINS: Chris Krebs, thank you for that.
KREBS: Thanks.
COLLINS: A quick programming note here, before we go. Comedians Roy Wood Jr., and others, are going to be on CNN, Saturday night, a new Special. You are going to have to tune in, to watch that.
Thank you for joining us, tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
