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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Never-Before-Seen Evidence Against Trump In 2020 Election Case; Vance Again Refuses To Say Trump Lost In 2020; The Guardian: Melania Trump Defends Abortion Rights In New Memoir. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 02, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And the fact that there are so many communities, some big, and some small that have suffered immense damage, just like that. So, residents we talked to, in the Gorge, tell us they are fully expecting that it will take years to come to some sort of a normalcy.
I will tell you, lots of people, thousands of customers, are still without power, throughout the State of North Carolina, for five and a half days now. But literally, Anderson, 20 minutes ago, the power came back on, here in Saluda, right above the Gorge. And people on this downtown street, in this small town, all let out a big cheer.
Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes, I bet they did. Yes, so many people in need.
Gary Tuchman, thanks. I'm glad you're there.
The news continues right now. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
"So what?" The damning quotes that Jack Smith says came from Donald Trump's mouth, as the Special Counsel and the judge are revealing blockbuster new evidence in the election case against Donald Trump.
Also, what Melania Trump just said about abortion that stands in stark contrast to the reality in America, because of her husband's three Supreme Court picks. The eye-opening new quotes from her new memoir.
And James Carville has some advice for Democrats, tonight, including that one moment, in last night's debate, that he says they aren't seizing on nearly enough. Don't you want to know what that is?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, as Donald Trump is sowing doubt about the 2024 election, we're getting just about as close of a look as we may ever get at what his trial may have looked like, for what he tried to pull off, the last time.
Judge Tanya Chutkan released 165 pages of evidence, from Special Counsel Jack Smith, which paints a far more detailed picture than we knew before, about the lengths and the depths of desperation that Trump is accused of going to, in order to cling to power after he lost the 2020 election.
Take in this scene, the day that Trump supporters stormed the Capitol, January 6th. Trump, whom Jack Smith says is alone in his dining room that is just off the Oval Office, is watching it all play out on television.
He has Twitter opened on his phone, when an assistant of his walked in, after learning that Vice President Pence was in such serious danger, he had to be taken to a secure location.
The assistant rushed into the dining room to inform the defendant, in hopes that the defendant would take action to ensure Pence's safety.
Instead, Smith writes, after the aide, whose name is redacted in these filings, delivered the news, the defendant looked at him and said, quote, "So what?" That is from a firsthand witness, about the value that Trump placed on the safety of the person, who is second in line to the presidency.
And as much as we're learning about Trump, in this new filing, tonight, we're also learning about what -- a lot about what Pence's delicate dance to push back actually looked like behind-the-scenes.
The filing contains details that presumably could only come from Mike Pence himself, whether from his own testimony to the grand jury, or speaking with investigators.
Here's how you can tell. Look at this. Smith is detailing a private lunch. This happened, on November 16th, in which Pence tried to encourage the defendant to accept the results of the election, and run again in 2024. To which the defendant, who, of course, here, is Donald Trump, responded, quote, "I don't know, 2024 is so far off."
And yet, here we are, and here was Donald Trump just yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you trust the process this time around?
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'll let you know in about 33 days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, we don't know if history will repeat itself in 33 days. But tonight, we do have a much better in -- much better insight into Trump's playbook, and what it could be. He's laying down a lot of the groundwork that we saw in 2020.
Smith is alleging that when one of Trump's attorneys told him that his claims about there being widespread election fraud would not hold up in court, Trump responded, and I'm quoting from the filing now, "The details don't matter."
Smith also has testimony from another witness, who says they heard Trump tell several members of his family this, after the election. Quote, "It doesn't matter if you won or lost the election. You still have to fight like hell."
My legal sources are.
CNN Legal Analyst, former federal prosecutor, Jennifer Rodgers.
And the criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson.
And Jennifer, it's the "So what?" moment that really stood out.
And it seems like there's an indication of who this person is, an assistant to the President, who worked very closely with Donald Trump, is not someone who has broken with him in a real way.
But when you read this, that this person ran in, to try to get Trump, to call off the crowd, understanding what this information could mean to Trump. And he just responds, "So what?"
[21:05:00]
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, this is why the brief is so interesting. Because I believe the brief actually said they don't intend to try to admit that into evidence. But it's there. Why is it there? Because this is a two-part document, right?
This is for the public. This is for us, to all say, Wow, this is a really powerful case against the former President. This is really, really bad what he did. It's also, of course, trying to convince Judge Chutkan, and the judges up the chain, that all of this evidence should come in, because it's not subject to the Supreme Court's immunity decision. So, it kind of has those two things.
But that is really more of an atmospheric point, I would say. They don't intend to try to admit that. But they want everyone to know, this was a bad guy acting in bad faith, and the case against him is really powerful.
COLLINS: Well, and for everyone following along at home, what they're trying to do is say, Hey, despite what the Supreme Court said about presidential immunity, we still have a case here. This can still go to trial.
And Joey, part of that, as a criminal defense attorney, how did you see it, when they talk about how they say they have someone from the FBI, who can testify to the activity on Trump's phone that day?
That his Twitter app was open, during the afternoon of January 6th, that he was using it, paired with Dan Scavino's testimony that only Dan Scavino and Donald Trump had access to that Twitter account. JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Kaitlan, as a defense attorney, I'm concerned about this, for a number of reasons.
What's this? This is the motion which lays out, from Jack Smith's perspective, what's going to be admissible? What is my proof? What is my evidence? And it's not only about the cell phone data. It's about a number of things.
Number one. I see a Mike Pence shaping up to be an all-star witness here. Remember, you would think, under the conventional wisdom of that Supreme Court case that you can't talk about Mike Pence, right? Immunity applies. He's the Vice President. Don't touch it.
No, Jack Smith says, wait a second. It's a presumption of immunity. However, who is Mike Pence? His running mate. What are you doing? Running as a candidate, not as president.
So, you're going to have Mike Pence really taking the stand, if it moves forward, giving damning evidence, with respect to the conversations he had with his boss, concerning this fake electors scheme, concerning his presiding over the Senate and ditching the real ones, and putting in these other ones. And so, that's going to be problematic.
What else, Kaitlan? I'm concerned, as a defense attorney, all of these statements that were made, and things that were done with the state people, coming from Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. Take it as you will. But all of the pressure on them? And then when -- the outset of this segment, you showed the January 6th. That's all coming in, because that was the culmination of this pressure upon everyone to say, I won, you lost.
So, there's a lot to work for and work with, as a defense attorney, to refute, if the matter goes forward at all of this -- excuse me, all of this comes in, yes.
COLLINS: Yes, and their names are redacted. Brian Kemp. And Doug Ducey who was then-Governor of Arizona. Brian Kemp, still the Governor of Georgia. And it says, like, P17 is Georgia Governor, and then Brian Kemp is blacked out. I think we know that it's him.
But it talks about how Trump had this intense pressure campaign, on them to overturn the results.
Doug Ducey, at one point is saying, OK, send me your evidence. What are you looking at?
Trump never gets back to him.
RODGERS: Yes. I'm packaging it all. We're packaging it, and we're sending it right to you.
And of course, there wasn't anything to send.
And that's part of the scheme is, We're going to tell you something's coming, but we just need this to happen now. We need you to do it for us now. And then, don't worry about it. We'll kind of fill it in on the back-end.
And then, when they say no, they shift to another thing.
I mean, what this brief is very good at is demonstrating that they worked, in a whole bunch of different ways, bunch of different angles, coming at it from every possible angle. And when something didn't work, then they would shift to something else.
COLLINS: Is it Supreme Court-proofed? Just on your read of it?
RODGERS: I think it is. I mean, they obviously took out the DOJ stuff, which they had to take out. Is it a stretch on the Pence stuff? I mean, they do have to convince the judge that the presumptive immunity doesn't apply here. But I think they've done it. I think they've done it.
I mean, I would be a little hesitant, because I also wouldn't have said that the Supreme Court would say that Pence, while acting as President of the Senate, in terms of the certification, should have been even presumptively immune. So, who knows?
COLLINS: Well--
RODGERS: But I think they've done a good job with it.
COLLINS: And Trump is responding to this tonight. I think we have a new -- we have a quote from him, on camera. We'll see if we have that, in a moment.
But Joey, the other, what he was saying on Truth Social is the Justice Department is disobeying its own rule, by putting this information out, this soon, obviously, with the argument about how close to an election, you can take action against one who's running in said election.
Does that apply here, given this prosecution, this indictment, happened over a year ago?
JACKSON: So, here's what I'd argue, Kaitlan. His team, that is, the former President, has gone through great lengths at delaying, delaying, delaying. And so, to the extent that we are here, in this process now, is not the fault of the Justice Department. It is the fault of your team, and attempting to delay it. And keep writing on Truth Social.
[21:10:00]
If you look at everything about this, a 165 pages, there is tweet after tweet after tweet that the Special Counsel's seeking to admit into evidence, suggesting this is not official conduct. This is him, again, being a bully from the bully pulpit, as it relates to state actors, attorney generals, governors, et cetera. As it relates to Pence, You better do the right thing.
And so, the more he tweets, is a lot of admissions in there, from the former President that I think are going to be problematic at trial.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point.
Standby, because we also have an attorney who previously represented Donald Trump, on this case.
Jim Trusty joining us.
Jim, as you look at this, what do you make of the new evidence that we got today? How strong do you think it is? How worried would you be, if you were still representing Trump in this case?
JIM TRUSTY, FORMER COUNSEL FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I'd probably be angry more than worried. I mean, you can't overreact to a government pleading.
But I want to go back to what Jennifer started with, which is really an important comment here. This is a pleading that is for public consumption as much as it is for actual legal logistics.
I mean, look, you can have a death penalty trial, where your limits, your page limits, for a filing, in an important case, where life and death rides on it, is 45 pages. This is a 165 pages. It includes a lot of gratuitous information, a lot of, what I would say is, optimistic information, when it comes to Mike Pence and Mark Meadows.
I mean, those are, under the Supreme Court ruling, it's a real stretch to pretend that President Trump turns to Mike Pence, and says, I only want to talk to you in your -- in your context of being the President pro tempore, that you're a legislative Mike Pence for this moment, not an executive one. And so, I think this overreaching when it comes to executive privilege, blowing up attorney-client privilege.
You've got a document before Judge Chutkan that she's got to look at and decide if every single aspect of that is admissible, everything that they're trying to get in. If it is admissible on her level, it's still going to go right back up the chain--
COLLINS: Sure.
TRUSTY: --and end up at the Supreme Court.
COLLINS: It is.
TRUSTY: But this is new territory, difficult territory. But they're reaching, they're going too far, when it comes to Pence and Meadows, because they're obsessed with having them on the witness stand, some day.
COLLINS: But that's a good point about, you know, it will be appealed, whatever this decision is. We know that, that horse has already left the barn.
But on the quotes from Trump about, the details don't matter, and it doesn't matter if you lost or won, just fight like hell? Doesn't that undercut the defense that we've seen, which is that Trump just wanted to have a free and fair election, wanted to make sure all the votes were counted?
TRUSTY: Look, I think he can't take this as gospel. I mean, the bottom line is, it's a very politicized pleading. We just heard comments about how the defense was trying to--
COLLINS: They're quotes from people, who liked Trump.
TRUSTY: Well, first of all, there's plenty of people in there that probably have axes to grind. There's going to be honorable people and dishonorable people. But this is not the crucible of cross- examination.
This is a Jack Smith pleading for both the court and for public attention. And, again, in a case where Jack Smith pushed this ridiculous theory of a speedy trial, that an -- a non-incarcerated defendant, who is waiving speedy trial really had to go to trial before Super Tuesday. That's the tell here, that this entire thing is politicized.
A real Department of Justice wouldn't be pushing for a speedy trial. They'd say, We're going to be transparent, we're going to turn over everything we can turn over, and you tell us when to try it, Judge.
That didn't happen here, and that poisons everything that comes after it.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, and the judge here is the one making the decisions. It's not Jack Smith, who released this today. It was the judge.
But Jim, you represented Trump on this issue.
So, when Trump is claiming and his team is arguing, everything that was done was in his official capacity as President, therefore, they've argued none of this can go to trial?
The Special Counsel saying it's hard to imagine stronger evidence that conduct is private than when the President excludes his White House Counsel and only wishes to have his private counsel present.
I mean, if it's White House business, why would the chief attorney in the White House not be allowed in the room?
TRUSTY: Right. You know what's great about that is what follows next are what would traditionally be covered by attorney-client privilege communications.
There is no executive privilege, no attorney-client privilege, in the mind of Jack Smith during this whole investigation.
He had to go to a new grand jury to clean up the indictment, to straighten it out, in terms of the potential, for what was going to be admissible at this trial, and what's going to be fought over in a hearing. And if he's made one mistake from appellate review, if any of this is an overreach, it's not just that he had something inadmissible. It's contaminating the grand jury. So, this really reeks of kind of, you can call it optimism, you can call it desperation. But this is an effort to get his whole story out, to hope that the trial judge will agree with him 100 percent, across the board, and to have the public opinion sway on various quotes from various people.
And look, maybe some of these folks have it right. Maybe he said things that were frustrated, that he never should have said. Maybe they've got an axe to grind.
But you're talking about the politicized process of challenging an election, very publicly, in many instances, by this President, becoming the new ground for criminal prosecution, not for insurrection, but for insurrection-lite.
So, there's just so many problems with this Special Counsel.
COLLINS: Insurrection-lite.
[21:15:00]
TRUSTY: And by the way, keep in mind, you've got a motion coming to track the--
COLLINS: Yes. Jim Trusty.
TRUSTY: --forwarded motion that got rid of that case for appointments clause.
COLLINS: Insurrection-lite is a new one. We'll see where that goes from there.
Thank you so much, Jim Trusty.
I do want to take us now to the comment that Donald Trump made, on camera, tonight, reacting to this new filing from Jack Smith. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He's a deranged person. I call him deranged Jack Smith.
He works for Kamala, and he works for Joe. This was a weaponization of government. And that's why it was released 30 days before the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Obviously, Jack Smith is a Special Counsel. He is supposed to act independent of the Justice Department. It's the same thing we saw happen with Hunter Biden.
Up next. We're going to talk to the man, who helped prep J.D. Vance for last night's debate. As Vance still had that question at the end that he did not answer, he was asked it, again today. Plus, Melania Trump is now defending the right, abortion rights, in her new book, breaking in part from her husband, and many in the Republican Party.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight's filing, by the Special Counsel, adds extra weight to the question that Donald Trump's running mate declined to answer, at last night's debate.
It was one that Senator J.D. Vance was asked again today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn't you answer the question last night during the debate about who won the 2020 presidential election?
SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH), 2024 VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, look, here's the simple reason. The media is obsessed with talking about the election of four years ago. I'm focused on the election of 33 days from now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source, tonight, helped prepare Senator Vance, for that debate, last night, standing in as Governor Tim Walz. He is the House Majority Whip, Republican congressman Tim Emmer -- Tom Emmer of Minnesota.
And Congressman, a fellow Minnesotan standing in, against a fellow Minnesotan, who was on that debate stage, last night.
But, in all seriousness, when you were prepping Senator Vance, for this debate, you had to have an idea that that question was going to come up. It comes up in almost every interview that Vance does, or that Trump does. Did you prepare an answer for that question?
REP. TOM EMMER (R-MN): Actually, Kaitlan, it was an honor to play a small role, in helping J.D. Vance.
J.D. Vance is brilliant. And I predicted he was going to wipe the floor with Tim Walz, in that debate, last night. And that's exactly what he did. It was about the economy. It was about the border. It was about what the Trump administration did, what the Harris administration has broken, and what Trump and Vance will do to fix it. So, no, I thought it went extremely well.
COLLINS: But did you think he'd get that question? Did you talk about how to answer the 2020 question?
EMMER: Listen, this is a -- again, he answered it. You don't like the answer. But he answered it.
This is something that you folks, in the media, want to focus on, on a regular basis. The American people and, thank goodness, J.D. Vance and Donald Trump, are focused on the election and how to fix this country. So, I think he did answer the question.
COLLINS: What about voters, who want to know if Vance is someone, who thought that, yes, Joe Biden did win the election?
EMMER: Kaitlan, what voters want to know, unless you are a partisan that has different goals, what voters want to know, right now, any voters that are not decided is, how can we get back that Trump economy that created 7 million new jobs. That had the lowest unemployment rate in almost a half century.
That saw American families bringing home $6,000 more a month compared to what we've had the last four years, which is 20 percent inflation, and the average family actually spending $1,200 more a month for the same basket of goods they were buying before Kamala Harris went into office.
They want to talk about the border. They want to talk about what you're going to do to solve the border crisis that has created a crime wave across this country, by allowing rapists and murderers and gang members, into this country, illegally.
COLLINS: But Congressman?
EMMER: So, they want to know and--
COLLINS: But Congressman?
EMMER: --and how are you going to -- how are you going to create peace around the world.
COLLINS: You're saying what voters want to hear. We've actually seen polls that show voters are also concerned about democracy. It registers higher than maybe some Republicans might predict.
And the reason I was especially curious, what you would say to this, and what your thinking was, going into this, knowing this would be a topic, is because in 2020, you did sign on to that brief, supporting a Texas lawsuit that would have invalidated the election results in four states.
But you ultimately chose to certify the election. You broke with some of your Republican colleagues, and you chose to certify it.
You said in a statement that Congress does not have the authority to discard an individual slate of electors certified by a state's legislature in accordance with their constitution. And you yourself said, doing so sets a precedent that I believe undermines the state- based system of elections that defines our republic.
I mean, do you still feel that way, tonight?
EMMER: Again, Kaitlan, we're talking about an election that's going to take place in 35 days. What are you doing, talking about something that's four years ago? We can have this debate-- COLLINS: Donald Trump is still talking about it, from four years ago--
EMMER: --some other time, going forward. The people--
COLLINS: --with all due respect, Congressman.
EMMER: The people are hurting.
Well, with all due respect, Kaitlan, people want to know. They're hurting. They want to know how it's going to get fixed. And it's been broken by Kamala Harris and Joe Biden. Donald Trump and J.D. Vance are going to fix it. And that's why they're going to win the election on the 5th of November.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: So, is that the tactic, for Republicans, is just to, to not answer questions about that and just move on. Focus on immigration, focus on the economy, both very important issues. But I mean, as we can see, by what Donald Trump is still saying, so is what happened with the election, and his efforts to overturn it.
EMMER: Apparently you don't like my answer either.
What Donald Trump is saying is that he created an economy that worked for everyone, one of the greatest economies this country has ever seen.
Kamala Harris, under her watch, they've created one of the worst, for many Americans. Many Americans are suffering when they go to the grocery store, when they go to the gas pump, when they try to pay their bills. They're suffering because of these failed policies under Kamala Harris and Joe Biden.
And then, you got the open southern border, and you've got -- you've got instability all around the globe, because these guys are not competent.
That's what people are concerned about. That's what they're going to be voting on, in just a few weeks, Kaitlan. And that's where the focus should be.
COLLINS: OK.
EMMER: This kind of talk is just trying to distract from the issues that matter most.
COLLINS: It's not that we don't like your answer, Congressman. It's that it's a question worth asking, given it is still very much a prevalent issue.
Congressman Tom Emmer, thank you for your time tonight.
EMMER: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. We have new details that are coming out of Melania Trump's upcoming book that is going to be released, next week. This might surprise you, and a passionate defense of abortion rights. We'll tell you what the former first lady had to say.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In her new memoir, Melania Trump reportedly makes a pretty strong case, for women's reproductive rights.
This is according to excerpts that The Guardian got ahold of, where the former first lady writes, and I'm quoting her now, "It is imperative to guarantee that women have autonomy in deciding their preference of having children, based on their own convictions, free from any intervention or pressure from the government."
Her full-throated support for abortion rights is notable, given her husband's three picks for the Supreme Court are the reason Roe versus Wade was overturned, and leaving some states to ban or severely restrict access to that procedure overall.
I want to get straight to my panel of political sources, tonight.
Sara, this whole book rollout has been very interesting. We've been watching her kind of mysterious videos, saying she's going to tell the truth.
But this feels more strategic. When you read this, a book that's coming out right before the election, where she's saying, I totally disagree with all of this, and I think that women should have the right to choose.
SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST, SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER, AXIOS: It's got to be politically calculated. I mean, this is one issue, where Donald Trump tends to be the most fickle.
You mentioned, on one hand, that he goes out and tries to say, I put these three very conservative judges on the Supreme Court, which overturned Roe v. Wade. On the other end, he's trying to say that the federal government should cover IVF. And he's doing that Kaitlan, because he wants to play it to both sides.
This election has the widest gender gap of any presidential election in history. So, he knows he needs the women's vote. What he's doing here, or what she's doing here, on his behalf, I would assume, is helping him to win the women's vote in a way that doesn't have to put him as the person who continues to be so fickle. It could be her, as a representative of him.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously, this is something that came up during the debate, last night, between Senator Vance and Governor Walz. They were both talking about this.
I just want a preview of what that moment looked like, because during the debate was when Trump finally answered the question, he didn't answer from his debate, which is that he would veto a national abortion ban.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: Norah, first of all, I never supported a national ban. I did during, when I was running for Senate in 2022, talk about setting some minimum national standard.
So many young women also see an unplanned pregnancy as something that's going to destroy their livelihood, destroy their education, destroy their relationships. And we have got to earn people's trust back.
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Just mind your own business on this. Things worked best when Roe versus Wade was in place. When we do a restoration of Roe, that works best.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, what do you make of how that played out last night?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well--
COLLINS: I should note. J.D. Vance did say in 2022, he was in favor of banning abortion--
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: --nationwide.
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: Making it illegal nationwide, is how he phrased it.
But to hear that, to see Melania's comments, what do you make of this?
JONES: Well, first of all, J.D. Vance, to quote LL Cool J, He lied about the lies that he lied about, when it came to abortion. He absolutely was for a national abortion ban. And then, just got there -- got out there.
This guy changes personalities more than most people change their suits. And there's a reason. The Republican position on abortion is so extreme, it is so radical, and it is so antithetical to most people's commonsense. Of course, people shouldn't -- little girls shouldn't be forced to have their uncle's babies. It's, I mean, they have crazy positions. And so, Trump is on a pogo stick trying to bounce backwards and backwards on this thing.
I don't know, though, if Melania Trump is being used strategically or not. There does not seem to be a great deal of coordination or affection between this former first lady and this former President. She might just be making her own point, and it may have nothing at all to do with this -- with the strategery, as they say.
FISCHER: But the timing, right before the election-- DAVID POLYANSKY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I mean--
FISCHER: --is what makes it feel very strategic.
JONES: Well, I mean, that's because--
FISCHER: You're talking a month before.
JONES: That's because you're using reason and rationality. And I'm not sure that's present in this relationship, certainly not always present -- present in this campaign.
POLYANSKY: Look, regardless of why she did it. Number one, she has the right to do it.
JONES: Sure.
POLYANSKY: And maybe--
COLLINS: And women have different views from their husbands all the time.
POLYANSKY: That's right. Well, I want to get to that. Because, look, there are couples in the suburbs of Philadelphia or Pittsburgh, and Ohio, and in Florida, and everywhere across the country, who have different views on not just this issue, but other issues.
[21:35:00]
So, I think it actually speaks well to the former President, as he campaigns, in terms of gaining people's trust on not just issues, but likability. This makes them seem a little normal.
They're a diverse couple, who have different views on a key policy issue. And she is putting out a book. And you know what? He's endorsing that book. He might not hold the same position, but I think it helps him politically because of that.
COLLINS: Well, Vance -- you talked about J.D. Vance's past positions. I mean, if Kamala Harris is being criticized for positions she had in 2019, that she's now changed, is Vance allowed to change a position he held clearly in 2022, to now?
JONES: Yes, look, I think it's OK. Look, Kamala Harris changed, really, the whole Democratic Party changed.
In 2020, some kind of COVID fever took over, and Democrats were on really bizarre stuff, Defund the Police and all kind of weird stuff and anti-fracking.
But what's happened is it's not just Kamala Harris. The entire party backed away from the anti-fracking thing, because natural gas became a geopolitical weapon against Putin. And so, you haven't heard Democrats criticizing fracking for four years. So, it's not like Kamala's is just kind of flip-flopping. The party has evolved on these issues. However, the problem with J.D. Vance is he gave himself a personality transplant. When he worked here, it wasn't that he had different policy positions. He was a different human being. He was kind. He was engaging. He was thoughtful. And he became a caricature of a caricature of Donald Trump for the position of getting on this ticket. And I think that is a -- people can evolve, but that you don't change your personality for power.
POLYANSKY: But--
FISCHER: And that--
POLYANSKY: Go ahead.
FISCHER: That tends to be the same argument, by the way, that the Democrats are using, in comparing him to Mike Pence, who kind of did the same chameleon jump.
OK, this is the playbook that you have to run if you want to be Donald Trump's running mate. You have to come out and get mass appeal. Obviously, J.D. Vance did that with "Hillbilly Elegy" and the whole Netflix show. But then, you also have to make sure that you flip to make Donald Trump happy. And that's what he had to do.
POLYANSKY: Can I just say? This is the Biden-Harris administration. This is an administration that has been pushing, within 10 years, to ban gas-powered cars, in the administration. Not when she ran for office. Over the last few years. And she's flipped--
JONES: Not a ban.
POLYANSKY: To ban, to force an EV mandate.
JONES: No.
POLYANSKY: And she has reversed her position on that. And that's why Donald Trump's running ads on it, in Michigan.
JONES: I just want to say, nobody has tried to ban the combustible engine. We did want to move more aggressively on electric vehicles. And we had to back off, you know why? Because the consumer demand wasn't there. So, we actually respond to facts in markets.
POLYANSKY: It's a ban.
JONES: It's not a ban.
COLLINS: We'll leave it there. 43 million people were watching, last night. Thank you all.
Tonight, I should also note, a story that we're following closely here on CNN. The death toll across the southeast, after Hurricane Helene swept through, has now risen to 189 people.
As tonight, the Biden administration is deploying a 1,000 active-duty soldiers to bolster aid efforts that are still very much underway, tonight.
Both President Biden and Vice President Harris were touring the historic devastation today. Biden got a briefing from FEMA officials, in North Carolina, before getting an aerial tour of the destructions of the state. The Mayor of Asheville explained to me, the other night, that was so there wouldn't be a need to shut down the very few functioning roads that they have, for a large presidential motorcade.
Meanwhile, next door, in Georgia, Harris herself got an up-close look at the response efforts, as she also met with families, who are grieving.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: There is real pain and trauma that has resulted because of this hurricane, and what has happened in terms of the aftermath of it.
And so, my final point to the residents of this community and the region is that we are here for the long haul.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The White House says that Vice President Harris will also go to North Carolina, to see the damage there, in the coming days.
Coming up tonight, one of the most influential Democratic voices of his generation, James Carville. He says there is one moment from that debate, last night, that the Harris-Walz team needs to seize on, but isn't. That's next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: More than 43 million people were watching, across 15 different networks, last night, as the vice presidential candidates went head-to-head. Now, that's fewer than the 57 million who tuned in, four years ago, to watch Kamala Harris and Mike Pence debate.
But after Senator J.D. Vance and Governor Walz left that stage, last night, I got reaction from Donald Trump Jr., who, of course, led a big push to get his dad to pick Vance, as his running mate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP JR., AMERICAN BUSINESSMAN, DONALD TRUMP'S SON: He was probably more comfortable in those issues than most Republicans are even on our strong points. So, I think it was an incredible debate.
COLLINS: Do you think he was more comfortable, in those issues, than your dad was in the last debate?
TRUMP JR.: Well, you know, I don't think -- you know, it wasn't necessarily a three-on-one debate. COLLINS: Everyone wants your dad to be safe. No one wants the threats against his life to happen. But you can't blame the media for those threats. There's been no evidence--
TRUMP JR.: When someone calls--
COLLINS: --that that's what drove those.
TRUMP JR.: --and allows people to have a platform to call someone literally Hitler, every day, for nine years? It creates it.
COLLINS: OK.
TRUMP JR.: Whether you want to believe it or not, that's a fact, so.
COLLINS: But as you know, J.D. Vance once likened your dad to Hitler as well. He questioned if he was America's Hitler.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me now, Democratic strategist, James Carville.
First, what did you make of? You're laughing, it seems.
JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I'm hardly a Don Jr. fan. But that was exactly what's been wrong. And you're supposed to go out and put as good a face on it as you possibly can. And I guess, he was somewhere--
COLLINS: Yes, the spin room is an interesting phenomenon for, like, non-political people.
CARVILLE: Yes, oh, yes?
COLLINS: Where it's just, the surrogates go there to say what they -- their takeaways, what they want, the media.
CARVILLE: And they hope that the candidate sees you. OK?
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:45:00]
CARVILLE: Oh, yes, here today, yes I heard, oh, here's why, you stand up, Don (ph), you're damn right.
And everybody gets the joke.
COLLINS: Yes.
CARVILLE: OK? And the media comes in, because they call it a spin room, because they know they're going to get spun. Be very seldom getting thanked. But if you're good at it, they'll like you more.
COLLINS: Yes, yes.
CARVILLE: Than Mozart.
COLLINS: What were your takeaways from the debate last night?
CARVILLE: My biggest takeaway was we knew who these people were, OK? And Vance is a kind of smooth-talking, educated Ivy League guy. Governor Tim is a master sergeant, coach.
And the only thing that I thought, and I just cannot believe, and I think David Axelrod said, and I said, Why haven't they just gone crazy over Vance saying that Donald Trump saved Obamacare? That's not -- that's on the pants on fire, five-star 20 Pinocchio BS.
And it's a great issue for us. And I don't know why they're not kicking that thing, why they don't have Harris out there, President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, everybody, like, What are you talking about? He did everything he could to kill Obamacare.
And that's my -- I thought it was fine. I thought the Governor did fine. I thought J.D. Vance was good at Senate's construction, which is a kind of minimum, but he was all right at that.
But I just -- somebody please, please go kick this Obamacare-Trump story.
COLLINS: So, they're cutting that moment at the end, where Vance wouldn't say that Biden won the election, and talked about certifying it.
You think the health care moment, where Trump tried--
CARVILLE: Much.
COLLINS: --view as more powerful.
CARVILLE: 10 times more powerful.
We've been talking about Biden won the election since Election Night. We've been talking about January the 6th since Election Night.
There's a 100 percent knowledge, he went out and told a bold-faced lie about an issue that the Democrats have a big advantage on, that's very important and very critical to people. If Obamacare is not so popular, why'd they take credit for something that they tried to repeal, I don't know, a 100 times? I mean, I thought that was the teaching moment in the entire debate. How would everything--
COLLINS: Why do think it's not a bigger deal?
CARVILLE: I don't know. I don't know. And I think that the Vice President's campaign are very good at big events. They do, debates, conventions, VP rollout. They do a great job.
But get in there day to day, and get in his face, and put the microphone in every Republican candidate. Do you think Donald Trump saved Obamacare? You're going to vote to save Obamacare? You're going to vote to? Obamacare subsidies come up in 2025. I mean, man, run on something that matters to people. I mean, that's the -- and that fundamentally matters to people.
COLLINS: Well, and you have such a strong political acumen. I mean, you were one of the loudest voices, in the Democratic Party, talking about Biden, and just the fact that he wasn't up to running in this 2024 race.
You have a new doc coming out, on CNN. It airs this -- it premieres this Saturday.
CARVILLE: Right.
COLLINS: I've already seen it. We were at the premiere. It's fantastic.
But there was a moment in the '92 Bill Clinton campaign, where you took something that everyone else was panicking over, and you tried to use it to your advantage.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARVILLE: Here's an article in The Wall Street Journal on Friday, and here's a story that looks like it might be going away. And somebody says, Aha, look, we have something that can kick this story an extra day.
CARVILLE (on camera): My job was to convey to the press and the public that we are tough (BLEEP) people that know what they're doing, because that was really part of what I was selling.
CARVILLE: But you'd have to ask--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But should--
CARVILLE: Are you going to let me answer the question or are you going to interrupt me? OK. All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That defiance ended up sending a bigger signal that lasted throughout the whole campaign. If you've got a big problem, confront it. Don't hide it.
BILL CLINTON, 42ND U.S. PRESIDENT: Carville's approach is just as relevant, perhaps more relevant today than it was in 1992. You turn into the fire, you don't turn away from it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: You think the Harris campaign should be turning into the fire more?
CARVILLE: Well, like I say, I think they're good -- they did big events, extraordinarily well. I don't think this isn't -- you're not turning into the fire. You're sitting behind the lines, lobbing artillery over there, OK? I mean, this one is not hard. 75 percent of the people kind of like the fact that we cover a lot of people, and we have more affordable health insurance than we've ever had before.
So, I don't think that -- there's no fire here. You're piling on, I mean, you shelling them. And now, you can do that too. Yes, we don't need that. We can just -- that's what they actually said. This is what they actually did. And take every vote. And every time that he said he was going to replace it with something terrific? We're still waiting, Sir.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: And you have to tune in, this Saturday. The CNN Film, "Carville: Winning Is Everything, Stupid." It premieres October 5th, at 07:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
Up next tonight. There are new strikes, tonight, in Beirut, as Israel is promising a response to Iran's missile attack, prompting everyone to ask, What's it going to look like?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, smoke is rising over parts of Beirut, following several major blasts in the Lebanese capital. That includes near the very heart of the city's downtown area. And officials there say that at least six people have been killed, several wounded amid all of this.
As the Israeli military is stepping up its attacks, against the Iranian-backed group, Hezbollah, as the world is watching and waiting to see how Israel is going to respond to Iran's massive missile attack, yesterday.
President Biden made clear today what kind of response he won't support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you support an attack on Iran's nuclear sites by Israel?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The answer is no.
They have a right to respond, but they should respond proportionally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source, tonight, is Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations, Danny Danon.
Ambassador, you spoke today, and you were saying that Iran is going to face consequences for their actions, that you said, would be greater than they ever could have imagined. When do you expect we will see that Israeli response?
AMB. DANNY DANON, ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Kaitlan, what happened, last night, was unprecedented. And I say, today, in the Security Council that it will be a very strong, painful response. It will be soon. The Cabinet is thinking about the options. But I can tell you, we will not sit idly by.
Iran will pay a price for what they did, attacking Israel. 10 million Israelis had to run for shelters. Imagine the entire population of New York City that have to run for shelters in 10 minutes. They will pay for that.
And I think they know that we have the capabilities to reach any destination in the Middle East. It's up to us now to decide how to do it and what to target.
COLLINS: You said, Soon. Has the Israeli Security Cabinet made a decision on what that response will look like?
DANON: Well, I cannot go into the details. But yes, there are few options being discussed. And we will decide about the timing.
But I think everybody understands, including our allies, it's not about if there will be a response. It's about what will be the response, what will be the targets? And I think the Iranians are aware of that.
COLLINS: Well, when President Biden says that Israel shouldn't go near Iran's nuclear sites, that that should not be part of the response you're considering? Is Israel heeding that message? Or is that still something that's on the table?
DANON: We have an open dialog with the administration.
But I want to raise the question, what we want to do? To wait for Iran to have a nuclear capability, and then they can put the -- that on the ballistic missiles, and launch nuclear ballistic missiles into Israel?
When you see a rogue nation that is sending 200 ballistic missiles into civilian population? You have to stop them. So, if it's not going to be us doing it now, it should be the responsibility of the U.S. and other Western democracies to block Iran from achieving nuclear capability. Otherwise, it will be too late.
COLLINS: That sounds like it is still something that's on the table for Israel.
DANON: Well, in a way, I can tell you that we are not discussing the options and the targets, but we are taking it very seriously.
History have told us that when you have a radical leader, threatening to destroy the Jewish people, you better believe him. And when we see the intention, and we see the capabilities, and they're throwing those ballistic missiles on our civilians? It makes one wonder, what should we do next?
And you know, this night, we celebrate the Jewish New Year. It was a very hard year for all of us. We still have the hostages for a year in captivity. So, we are in pain. But we are not weak. We are strong. We are determined. And Iran will feel it very soon.
COLLINS: Well, and in that sense, as you look at that, I mean, the concern from the broader world is Israel responds to this, and then Iran feels the need to respond to that, and then this tit for tat continues in this manner.
How do you stop that? What does that look like? Or does it risk opening up and making this a bigger war than what we're already seeing?
DANON: So, I think that will be also part of the calculations about the target we pick. We don't want to see full escalation. We don't want to see war. We are a peaceful nation.
But at the same time, imagine that you had 200 rockets landing in one of the cities in New York. What will be the response of the U.S.? Or any other state around the world? You have to retaliate. Otherwise, you will bring more aggression to your people, to your country.
But we will have to make it a calculated response, because we don't want to see full war with Iran. And believe me, they also don't want to see it. We have shown our capabilities, when we fought Hamas in Gaza, where we are fighting Hezbollah in Lebanon. So, they better look what happened in Beirut and in Gaza before they start a war with us.
COLLINS: Yes. And of course, we're waiting to see what that Israeli response is going to look like. You said, Ambassador, that it is going to be soon. Obviously, the world will be watching.
[22:00:00]
I know it is the Jewish New Year coming up. Thank you so much for joining us, during the holidays. Ambassador Danny Danon.
DANON: Thank you very much.
COLLINS: Really appreciate that.
Of course, we'll continue to be following all of that very closely, looking at what that Israeli response is going to be. We'll continue that with CNN's coverage.
Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
