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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Republican Liz Cheney Campaigns Alongside Kamala Harris; Melania Trump Confirms Support For Abortion Rights In New Video; 2006 Photo Shows GOP Rep. Mike Lawler In Blackface. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 03, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
CHRIS WALLACE, AUTHOR, "COUNTDOWN 1960," CNN ANCHOR, THE CHRIS WALLACE SHOW, HOST, "WHO'S TALKING TO CHRIS WALLACE" ON MAX: -- refused to have makeup. He needed the makeup.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
WALLACE: He looked --
COOPER: And Kennedy -- and Nixon wore a lighter-color suit, which blended into the background.
WALLACE: Exactly. No, I mean, it just -- there were miscalculation after miscalculation.
Just quickly, at the end of the -- of the debate, Richard Daley, the Mayor of Chicago, turned and said, My God, they embalmed him before he died.
COOPER: Oh, my God.
Chris Wallace, thank you.
The new book is fascinating. "Countdown 1960: The Behind-the-Scenes Story of the 312 Days that Changed America's Politics Forever" goes on sale Tuesday.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
A country over party. That is the message from Liz Cheney, in a passionate plea to Americans, while standing with the Democratic nominee, in the birthplace of the Republican Party.
Also tonight, an old photo has surfaced, of a Republican member of Congress, in blackface, while dressed up as Michael Jackson. Tonight, Congressman Mike Lawler will join me, live, to respond.
Entrapped in the flooding, two people are dead. Four more are still missing tonight. And a Tennessee factory is under investigation after workers say they weren't allowed to leave, to escape Hurricane Helene until it was too late.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the last presidential election are front and center with only weeks to go before the next one.
The fallout from the culmination of those efforts by Donald Trump, January 6th, is what pushed Liz Cheney to do something that would have been unthinkable, for anyone in her family just four years ago.
The lifelong Republican sharing a campaign stage, today, alongside the Democratic presidential nominee, in of all locations, the birthplace of the Republican Party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZ CHENEY, FORMER UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: I was a Republican even before Donald Trump started spray tanning.
(LAUGHTER)
CHENEY: I know that the most conservative of conservative values is fidelity to our Constitution.
(APPLAUSE)
(CHEERING)
CHENEY: Donald Trump was willing to sacrifice our Capitol, to allow law enforcement officers to be beaten and brutalized in his name, and to violate the law and the Constitution in order to seize power for himself. I don't care if you are a Democrat or a Republican or an Independent. That is depravity, and we must never become numb to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After those forceful comments, Liz Cheney then stood over her shoulder, as we saw the Vice President go somewhere that she has mostly avoided for months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Donald Trump lost the 2020 election.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That statement, of course, was the one thing we did not hear from Trump's running mate, J.D. Vance, earlier this week on the debate stage. But this comes as the massive trove of evidence that the Special Counsel says it has, on Trump's efforts to overturn the election, is all looming over this endorsement from Liz Cheney.
Because the man, who was quoted in that filing that we brought you here, last night, saying, quote, "It doesn't matter if you won or lost the election," he's still saying this, four years later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We did much better in 2020.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We won.
D. TRUMP: We won. We won. We did win.
(CHEERING)
D. TRUMP: It was a rigged election.
(CHEERING)
D. TRUMP: It was a rigged election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, he did not win in 2020, as we know.
My political sources tonight are:
Former communications director to Vice President Harris, Jamal Simmons.
Scott Jennings, who served along with Vice President Dick Cheney, in the George W. Bush administration.
And journalist, and Co-founder of Lift Our Voices, Gretchen Carlson.
Jamal, that was a full-throated endorsement today that we heard from Liz Cheney. Just watching it. I mean, I know that we're used to everything happening in this day and age. But it seemed just, you know, almost just unimaginable a few years ago.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR VP HARRIS: Oh, yes.
COLLINS: And does it work though? That's the question I think everyone has tonight.
SIMMONS: I'm not used to it. Let me just say for the record. I've spent a lot of my career campaigning against the Cheneys. So, it's a tough one.
COLLINS: It's got to be surreal for you to see that.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL: How did it go? How did it go?
SIMMONS: It didn't go very well. It didn't go very well. So, I'd rather be on their side, I think.
Listen, I think this does give some Republicans who, and some moderates, maybe, who are thinking about what to do. We know that sliver is getting smaller and smaller. But maybe it does give them some opportunity to come out and vote for Vice President Harris.
I think, she didn't just say, do it, because Trump's horrible, and it's bad. She gave her a pretty big endorsement about who she was and where she comes from and what her values are. I think she gave her a ringing endorsement.
And then the Vice President got up there, and really didn't make, I thought it was very interesting, she didn't make Liz Cheney applaud for anything, or stand there and take anything that she wouldn't applaud for.
[21:05:00]
She didn't talk about a lot of social issues. She didn't talk about any of the things that might be controversial between Democrats and Republicans. It was America first, freedom, we're all in this together, let's fight and win.
COLLINS: And she said, I hope one day we can get back to a place where we have a vigorous two-party debate in this nation. Obviously, we're having one. But she was saying the Republican Party is so different.
I mean, does what Liz Cheney did today, create a permission structure for Republicans, who are Kamala-curious about voting for her?
GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST, CO-FOUNDER, "LIFT OUR VOICES": Yes, but I don't think anyone who hasn't made up their mind yet is looking for permission from her.
But I do think this was a very brave act, on her part. It takes courage to do what she did after January 6th. It takes courage to do what she did today. I thought what was most fascinating was that they didn't talk about policy at all. They probably don't agree on much of anything.
SIMMONS: Except foreign policy. They did talk foreign policy.
CARLSON: OK, foreign policy, yes.
SIMMONS: And they agreed on that, I'm afraid.
CARLSON: But, I mean, that's a very insightful point that they stayed away from policy.
Look, Liz Cheney's mission there today was that she believes democracy is at stake. And that's the number one thing she's been talking about for the past few years. And she's willing to look past any other policy differences, because she believes we won't have a democracy anymore if Donald Trump is elected.
COLLINS: I mean, Scott obviously, is the Republican at the table, who did work for Dick Cheney, when he was Vice President in that administration. When you see that today, what do you make of that?
JENNINGS: I revere Dick Cheney. I was glad to work for him twice and honored to serve underneath him.
I mean, I just fundamentally disagree that we won't have a democracy. I think this country is strong. Stronger than any individual politician in either party.
And so, I believe deeply that the policy differences matter. So did Liz Cheney, at one point. She used to call Kamala Harris a radical liberal, who would raise taxes, take away guns and health insurance, and explode the size and power of the federal government.
Now, this means something to a lot of people. And so, look, I don't begrudge her, her viewpoints. And obviously, she strongly dislikes Donald Trump and what he represents.
But there are a heck of a lot of people, in this country, who thought they were getting something out of Biden and Harris that they did not get.
And there's a lot of Republicans and conservatives who probably may have some proclivities that Cheney has, about what Trump did on January the 6th, but are mortified at the policy outcomes of Biden and Harris. They were not moderates, they were radical liberals, just like Cheney predicted they would be.
COLLINS: But what about when Bill Barr tells me, Trump can have all these policies that people say, Well, I like his policies better. But Bill Barr said to me, basically, his personality gets in the way. He can's actually achieve those policies.
JENNINGS: Yes. Well, I think Kamala Harris' personality gets in the way too. I mean, they're politicians, they're human beings. There are things about them we like, and there're things about them we don't like.
I think politics has a couple of purposes. Win elections and govern. And the way Harris has governed the last three and a half years, I cannot abide.
CARLSON: But this is why--
SIMMONS: But is there--
CARLSON: This is why she wasn't going after you for a vote today. She's not going -- she's not--
JENNINGS: Well who she's going -- well then who she's going after?
CARLSON: She's not going after people who've already decided. She's--
JENNINGS: I work for George W. Bush and her dad. Who would she be going after?
CARLSON: Because that's not the Republican Party anymore.
JENNINGS: But that's her party. Those are her people.
CARLSON: Romney. Bush. Cheney.
JENNINGS: Those are her people
CARLSON: Yes. But--
JENNINGS: Are they not?
CARLSON: Yes, but that's not who's running as a Republican, this election cycle. That's the whole point of this discussion.
She's going after the 2 percent of undecideds. She's going after Independents, and she's going after Republicans that hate Donald Trump. Those are the two groups. And it's a very small group. But when you have an election this close? It could matter.
SIMMONS: But it--
COLLINS: Well, let's talk to a Republican that we have with us, who worked for Donald Trump.
Sarah Matthews is here.
And Sarah, obviously, you were the Deputy Press Secretary in the Trump administration when I was covering it.
You have endorsed Liz Cheney. You're voting for -- sorry -- for Kamala Harris. You're voting for her. You're going to be with Liz Cheney on the campaign trail, next week. Are you someone who ever thought that you'd find yourself voting for a Democrat?
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: I think if you would have told me four years ago that I'd be excited to cast my ballot for Kamala Harris for President, in 2024, my head would have exploded. So no, I did not envision myself being in this position.
But I also didn't think that an insurrection at our nation's capital was possible. I also didn't think that we would ever have a president who would disrupt the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in our nation's history.
So, it made the decision easy, because I believe that Donald Trump has shown us that he is wholly unfit to ever serve as president again. And so yes, I'm going to vote for the person who I think can beat him, and will keep him out of office and away from the Oval Office.
COLLINS: What do you plan to say, next week, when you do appear alongside not just Liz Cheney, I should note, but also Alyssa Farah Griffin, who our viewers will know well, Cassidy Hutchinson, two other former prominent Trump supporters and Trump staffers. MATTHEWS: Look, I think that all of us identify as lifelong conservatives. I can say that I've never voted for a Democrat in my life, and I believe that the other three have never as well. But we know that the stakes are too high in this election.
And we've seen up close and personal, at least, Cassidy, Alyssa and myself, what kind of leader Donald Trump is. And we know him to be unfit. And so, we don't want to sit on the sidelines in this election.
[21:10:00]
And we want to make our voices heard, in somewhere like Pennsylvania, where I believe that this message could break through. Obviously, we know that Pennsylvania is going to be critical, and that the margins are going to be tight.
And I want to say that. In Pennsylvania, during the primary process, there were 158,000 Republicans, who turned out to cast a vote for Nikki Haley in that primary. That is a closed primary. So, that means that no Democrats or Independents can vote in it.
And these people knew that their vote wouldn't matter, in the sense that Donald Trump was still going to be the nominee, and he would win the primary. But they did it in protest.
And so, even if just a fraction of those people we can convince to write in Kamala Harris, instead of sitting this election out, or voting for Donald Trump, or leaving the top of their ballot blank? Then that could be something that pushes Kamala Harris over the edge, and gives her a win in that critical, key battleground state.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a great point about those Nikki Haley voters.
I want everyone to listen. Trump responded to Cheney endorsing Harris in the very public way she did today. This is what Trump had to say about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: Well, Liz Cheney lost for Congress. She was terrible.
Liz Cheney is a stupid war hawk. All she wants to do is shoot missiles at people.
I really think it hurts. I think, frankly, if Kamala -- I think they hurt each other. I think they're so bad, both of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Anyone?
CARLSON: I mean, this doesn't help with women. How many times do we have to say this? He's calling her stupid. It just makes me cringe. It doesn't even matter who I'm going to vote for, or what I think.
It's just, why would he keep doing that? I guess, I'll ask Scott that. Why would he keep doing that and think that he might have a chance, at getting some of those independent women and suburban moms? I just don't understand it.
JENNINGS: I mean, I -- look, you're welcome to your opinions.
I mean, my view is he debates his political opponents with great vigor.
And the independent and suburban women of this country may or may not have already formed opinions about him. But I doubt they're going to cast their ballot based on what his views of Liz Cheney are. I hope they cast their ballot based on the inflation, under which they've been crushed, for the last three and a half years, for instance.
But to me, this idea that he's not allowed to fire back at his critics, when they call him everything but a good milk cow, I just think is ludicrous. It's a political campaign, and it's October. Buckle up, everybody.
SIMMONS: Well, let's also pay attention to what's really happening. He's not going after suburban women, right? He's not going after non- Republican women.
CARLSON: His wife did today.
SIMMONS: Yes, maybe she is, but he's not.
He's going after those disaffected guys, who are playing video games, watching WWE, not paying attention to politics, and they are trying to get every single one of them they can to show up in this election and vote for him.
I got to tell you. It is so bracing, and I imagine -- and I don't know if it's bracing for you or not, Scott. But it would be bracing for me that so many people, who have worked intimately with Donald Trump, who know him so well, from cabinet officials to military officials to staffers, have all come out and said, This man should not be trusted with the White House again.
COLLINS: Well, and the economy is the number one issue for voters. But in polls, we've seen, democracy is really high up. The other--
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: --underneath it aren't even close.
We had the Republican House Whip, Tom Emmer on, last night, from Minnesota. We were talking to him about this, and talking about what came out in that filing last night, about the efforts to overturn the election, which is why Liz Cheney was up there today.
And listen to what Tom Emmer had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TOM EMMER (R-MN): This is something that you folks, in the media, want to focus on, on a regular basis. The American people and, thank goodness, J.D. Vance and Donald Trump, are focused on the election and how to fix this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump went on at length today, about the 2020 election, as we just heard, saying that he won it. This isn't something that the media is just concocting. Trump himself is still talking about 2020.
CARLSON: Well, and J.D. Vance, on Tuesday night, also wouldn't give a straight answer on this.
So look, it's an inconvenient truth that this is something that we're still talking about. But I think this whole thing could have stopped, when Mitch McConnell had the opportunity, to stop it on that day, on January 6th. We would not be looking at the same Republican Party today. We would not.
JENNINGS: Wait, how?
CARLSON: Because he could have coalesced the members of Congress, right then and there, to not allow Donald Trump to make them push back what they thought about it, and they could have impeached him.
JENNINGS: To convict him?
CARLSON: Yes. It would--
SIMMONS: They could have impeached him, and he wouldn't be able to run again, and we wouldn't be there today.
CARLSON: It would have been--
JENNINGS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on.
CARLSON: It would have been--
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I hate to give everybody a rudimentary civics lesson. The House impeaches. And it took them a long time to get to it. And yes--
CARLSON: He was the Leader.
SIMMONS: OK.
JENNINGS: And then -- and then the -- and then the--
CARLSON: I'm just talking about being a Leader of the Republican Party.
JENNINGS: And then the Senate. But it took a long time to get to it.
I don't disagree with you. Had they convened and done it that night? Maybe they would have. But it took a--
COLLINS: That's not a civics lesson.
JENNINGS: But it took a long--
COLLINS: Down with that.
JENNINGS: It took a long time for Pelosi to get around to it. It took -- too much time passed, so don't blame it on Mitch McConnell. I'm sorry.
COLLINS: Well she--
CARLSON: I'm just saying, the Leader of the Republican Party at the time. And I think that that will go down in history as the gravest error of the Republican Party.
COLLINS: Scott?
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: You don't care about the Liz Cheney endorsement. You're a Republican.
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: What about this endorsement that we also heard from today?
[21:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, AMERICAN SINGER-SONGWRITER AND GUITARIST: With full knowledge that my opinions are no more or less important than those of any of my fellow citizens. Here's my answer: I'm supporting Kamala Harris for President and Tim Walz for Vice President, and opposing Donald Trump and J.D. Vance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Bruce Springsteen is pretty convincing to some people.
JENNINGS: Couple things. A, I can't think of anything I care about less than some war on (ph) celebrity. B, we got Hulk Hogan, and that's all I need. It's fine.
COLLINS: OK. OK. You have a war on celebrity. He's performed 80--
SIMMONS: Kid Rock will be offended.
COLLINS: --80 concerts in Pennsylvania. He's pretty--
JENNINGS: OK.
COLLINS: He's not like some out-of-touch L.A. celebrity.
JENNINGS: I don't -- I don't care.
COLLINS: Right? Fair?
JENNINGS: I legitimately don't care. Because Joe Biden and Kamala Harris ran the country into the ground. I want, directionally, a center-right government. And I don't give a crap what some celebrity thinks about it, who's got hundreds of millions of dollars. He's not affected by their policies.
COLLINS: But you care what Hulk Hogan thinks.
JENNINGS: But working people in Kentucky do care about it, and that's where I live, and that's who I represent.
CARLSON: I agree with you Scott on that.
SIMMONS: Yes.
CARLSON: I don't think these celebrity endorsements -- I mean, maybe Taylor Swift moves it for people to register to vote.
COLLINS: Yes, to register (ph).
CARLSON: But I'm not sure that that has much to do with who they want to vote for in the end.
JENNINGS: No.
CARLSON: It's their pocketbook, right?
SIMMONS: Yes. I mean--
COLLINS: Jamal, final thought?
SIMMONS: God bless Bruce Springsteen.
COLLINS: All right, well, no one here besides maybe me is getting backstage passes to Bruce Springsteen.
Thank you all so much for being here.
Up next. You're going to want to hear this story. Donald Trump is making a new effort, tonight, to dismiss that January 6 case against him. Our legal experts are going to tell us if he has any chance.
Also, a New York Republican congressman, in a tight race, now admits he did darken his face, as part of a Halloween costume in 2006. There is a picture. We'll show it to you. Congressman Mike Lawler will respond, here, live, tonight.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Just a day after a judge unsealed never-before-seen evidence in Jack Smith's case against Donald Trump. Tonight, Trump's lawyers are trying again to get that case thrown out entirely, and they're attempting to lean on an assist from the Supreme Court. My legal sources are:
Former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, and CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.
Also here, former Senior Investigative Counsel for the January 6 Committee, Temidayo Aganga-Williams.
Great to have you both here.
Elie, can we just start with what they are arguing, what Trump's team is arguing here? Obviously, we know what the goal is. But what's the process that they're hoping to get there by?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: So, this is the other issue.
We've been very focused for the last several days, and weeks, on the immunity question, which is playing out, and I know we'll talk about in a minute.
But what Trump's arguing today is there was another Supreme Court decision, a few days before the immunity decision, that said the obstruction law that was charged, to get hundreds of January 6 rioters, does not apply to the physical attempt to block Congress on January 6th. The court, as a result, threw out 300-plus convictions for that.
And by the way, I should say, Justice Jackson, Ketanji Brown Jackson joined with five conservatives in that ruling.
So, Trump's team is saying, Aha, two of the four charges against me are the same obstruction statute, therefore it has to get thrown out.
Jack Smith's going to say, Well, your case involved fake documents. Which the Supreme Court said is really the distinction. It has to involve fake documents. So, Jack Smith is going to say, The fake elector certificates, that keeps these charges on the books against you.
COLLINS: Do you think the judge will say this is not going to work? I mean, they tried to get a lot of his cases thrown out. They were successful with the classified documents case. What's the situation here, do you think?
TEMIDAYO AGANGA-WILLIAMS, FORMER SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL, JAN. 6 COMMITTEE: I think Elie's right, the argument we're going to hear, I don't think that's going to be successful. The distinction there is going to be about whether these -- this law that was made after the Enron scandal, focused on documents, is applicable to the former President.
I think it's going to be a failure when he moves forward here. I think the judge is going to be pretty easily dismissed that -- that argument. COLLINS: Can I ask you about the other thing the judge did today, which was move the deadline for when Trump's team has to respond to, to what we went through, last night? All this evidence that we had never seen before, some of it, in the election interference case against Trump, saying, This can still go to trial, despite what the Supreme Court argued.
It's November 7th, two days after the election. Would they want to not rebut that before the election happened?
HONIG: Yes, it's a good question. You would think Trump would want to put in his Hey, here's my response to this thing you all just saw. It's not going to trial, obviously, for a long time, because it's going to go back to the Supreme Court.
But this is what's unusual about the way this whole thing has played out. The brief we saw, last night? Procedurally, it's all backwards.
With the way it works? You've been in the prosecutor's chair. You get your indictment as a prosecutor. Then the defense says, Here's the motions I'm going to make to try to dismiss.
Jack Smith here said, I want to go first, and I want to speed it up. And Judge Chutkan agreed with him.
And that's why we've now seen this document, 30-some days before the election. They really flipped ordinary procedure on its head here to get it done.
COLLINS: Well, and that's why Trump is quoting you on Truth Social today.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: You titled this "Jack Smith's October Cheap Shot."
HONIG: Yes, I stand by that.
Look, Jack Smith took the established normal procedures of any case, and he said, I want to go first. Judge Chutkan said, This is an unusual request, and then let him do it.
There's no reason to speed it up. There's no reason to flip it unless you, as Jack Smith, believe, Well, the American public needs to see this before the election. That's not your job as a prosecutor and, I argue in the piece, it violates long-standing DOJ policy to do anything with an election in mind.
COLLINS: Yes. But it is out there.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: And it is really interesting. We read through it all here, last night. It's fascinating.
And there's one part we didn't get to last night, Tem. And since you were on the January 6 congressional committee, helping them with their very exhaustive investigation, I wonder, one, if you knew about this, and what you make of it, which is this detailing about how Trump operatives were trying to cause chaos during the election.
[21:25:00]
And this has to do with two unidentified Trump campaign workers in Detroit. It's on Election Night. Everything is getting crazy. And when a colleague told an unidentified person, We think a batch of votes heavily in Biden's favor is right? That unnamed person responded, Find a reason it isn't, give me options to file litigation.
When the colleague suggested that there was about to be unrest at the polling place, this person responded, Make them riot, Do it.
Now, we don't know who that was. But they were clearly trying to have some kind of moment where it looked chaotic. It looked like these -- we didn't know who these votes were for, if they were legitimate, when they were, and they just wanted there to be a scene that they could use to their advantage.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: So, that was new to me. That's something that I was not aware of. And I think it is damning.
But I think it's consistent with what we've seen with both the former President and his allies, which is that they knew that their actions were likely to cause violence, and they wanted to cause a violence. I think it's entirely consistent.
And I must, if I could, Kaitlan, I want to go back to what Elie said, on the Jack Smith, which I must vigorously disagree with, the contents of Elie's article.
I don't think what Jack Smith here has done is abnormal. The DOJ rule reference about taking actions within 60 days is informal law. It's an informal rule.
HONIG: That's not the right rule. That's not the right rule. You keep--
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: And hold on. But I could -- if I could--
HONIG: You're slipping.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: If I could--
HONIG: Talk about a rule that I'm not talking about.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: If I could -- I think what I found problematic in that article, it suggests that Jack Smith is purposely trying to impact the election. It suggests that Jack Smith going first is so abnormal, because it's putting some kind of mens rea, which is state of mind in Jack Smith's.
The Supreme Court told Jack Smith to go forward and do exactly what he's doing. Jack Smith filed that brief under seal. Judge Chutkan chose to unseal this, not Jack Smith.
And I do take issue with the framing that this case has been delayed or is going forward at this time because of Jack Smith. It was delayed because the Supreme Court took so long, took this action. It was delayed because the former President has sorted every angle to stop this from going forward.
So I do think that, personally, for me, I think what Jack Smith has done so far is prosecute this case, honorably, quickly and appropriately.
And the public has a right. There is a public interest in an open process, which means seeing this evidence, which means moving quickly, and yes, moving quickly before an election. That's what should happen.
The people should know what happened and get the evidence that a grand jury, as beyond probable cause, said that the former President likely committed this crime. So, the people should get to trial as quickly as possible and should not be stopped because an election happens to be happening. He's a defendant, first, candidate, second.
HONIG: How many times did you ever file your motion first, before there was a motion to dismiss, as a prosecutor?
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: How many times have I -- how many--
HONIG: Ever? Ever?
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: How many times have I ever prosecuted a former President for these crimes?
HONIG: But that you can't--
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: This is a unique circumstance. The Supreme Court lead--
HONIG: You can't just say the rules are thrown out, because it's really bad.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: No. What I'm--
(CROSSTALK)
HONIG: No, no, no. That's the principles.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that a conservative Supreme Court told Jack Smith, Take this back to Judge Chutkan and do exactly what he's doing now.
HONIG: No, they did not.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: They did.
HONIG: They did not say, You go first. You rush it.
The way motions work. You know this. The defense makes the motion first. They get to say, Here's the basis. It got flipped on its head.
And let me talk about the delay issue. How long did it take DOJ to charge this case?
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: You're talking--
HONIG: How long did it take DOJ to charge this case?
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: Listen.
HONIG: Two -- hold on. My turn now.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: I said--
HONIG: My turn now.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: Go ahead.
HONIG: Two and a half years.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: Yes.
HONIG: You're saying Donald Trump delayed because he, as a criminal defendant, raises a constitutional defense, which goes to the Supreme Court and he wins? That's not delay. That's a criminal defendant vindicating his constitutional rights.
The delay here is on DOJ. They didn't leave Jack Smith enough runway. He has done nothing but frantically, expedite, expedite, expedite, at every step of this case. You can't tell me, it has nothing to do with trying to get it in before the election.
And the rule, the real rule here, it's Section 9 8.500 (ph) says, As a prosecutor, you cannot take any action. People say, Oh, it only means charging decisions. No. The rule says any action with an eye to the election.
Sally Yates said it was inappropriate to do just this a few years ago. If you had a problem with what James Comey did, in 2016, you have to have a problem with this.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: There's the big distinction there.
HONIG: You can't thread that needle.
AGANGA-WILLIAMS: You can't -- you can't, easily. What James Comey did is, 11 days before an election, he announced the reopening of an investigation. What you're talking about here is a case that is being prosecuted, is motion practice continuing. That is not the same thing at all. It's completely different.
And I think it's inappropriate to suggest that Jack Smith has been doing something frantically. I think what he's been doing is prosecuting the case, as he should be.
COLLINS: Great conversation. Elie Honig. Temidayo Aganga-Williams. Thank you, both.
Up next here. Donald Trump, tonight, is responding to the video from his wife, and her new book. Melania Trump, saying that she supports abortion rights. As CNN dropped new reporting about how much her book publisher wanted from CNN, in exchange for an interview.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Melania Trump's memoir will officially be out in five days. Notable, of course, given her role as the former first lady, the potential future first lady, and also one of the few people who can sway Donald Trump's political decisions.
But listen to this also about the book release. CNN reached out to Melania Trump's book publisher, for an interview, about two months ago. What we heard back was highly unusual. Her publisher was seeking $250,000 and a signed non-disclosure agreement in exchange for a sit- down.
CNN obviously did not sign it. No interview ever happened. We did not pay the $250,000.
And Skyhorse Publishing later said that it was a mistake, telling us, quote, "Neither Melania nor anyone from her team knew anything about the NDA and the document that was sent reflected an internal miscommunication."
My source tonight is Kate Bennett, the former CNN White House Correspondent, and Author of "Free, Melania: The Unauthorized Biography."
Kate, you know Melania Trump well. You have covered her for a very long time. Do you believe that it was a mistake?
KATE BENNETT, FORMER CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, AUTHOR, "FREE, MELANIA": I don't really.
[21:35:00]
I think, Melania Trump is often a -- the thing that makes her most upset is that people make money off of her, right? You know there's this sort of famous story that she wanted a take on the bobbleheads that were being sold in the visitors -- a tourist shop near the White House.
I mean, this is someone who has spent the majority of her time post- White House, post-first lady, selling things on the internet, NFTs, necklaces, and now this book. So, I don't think it's unusual.
Also, CNN reported not too long ago that she had received an appearance fee for what was technically a campaign event in the amount of $250,000 as well. So, I think this is what she feels, is the cost of doing business. Of course, not in journalism. But that's what she thinks.
COLLINS: Yes, and she's been really promoting this book heavily. Today, she released a video, where she comes out in pretty fervent support of abortion rights. Obviously notable, given it was her husband who helped end Roe versus Wade, by appointing three conservative justices to the Supreme Court.
Listen to what she had to say about it today, and then also what Trump said when he was asked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Individual freedom is a fundamental principle that I safeguard. Without a doubt, there is no room for compromise when it comes to these essential right that all women possess from birth. Individual freedom. What does, My body, my choice, really mean?
BILL MELUGIN, CORRESPONDENT, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: What's your reaction to Melania's memoir about championing abortion rights and reproductive freedom? When you read it, what were your thoughts?
D. TRUMP: We spoke about it. And I said, You have to write what you believe. I'm not going to tell you what to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Kate, you're shaking your head. What do you have to say about that?
BENNETT: I mean, when has Melania Trump ever done anything with the approval, or not approval of Donald Trump? Never.
I mean, she has -- her tenure in the White House was the only one, in recent modern history, that the East Wing had virtually no contact with the West Wing. When you think about that. There was no amplification of messaging. There was no, We're doing a trip because the West Wing wants to push this out.
And certainly, this abortion moment, this reproductive justice moment that Melania Trump is having, and talking about in her book, feels authentic. I am a little hesitant to believe that Donald Trump, even knew it was coming, before this book came out.
Melania Trump does what Melania Trump wants to do. And if there's anybody who knows not to try and sway her, the other way? It's Donald Trump.
COLLINS: If she's writing a book, is that something that she would tell Trump before it comes out? Or is that something that maybe he could have found out recently?
BENNETT: I'm under the belief, and I've spoken to some people that he probably found out recently. Again, the two orbits, although they are close? I'm not -- I'm not saying, they don't -- they don't communicate, they don't spend time together. The work that Melania Trump does is often siloed, and it's something she does on her own.
And I think it's interesting too. Listen, if Donald Trump could say anything to Melania Trump, about these recent weeks or months, wouldn't it be, Hey, can you get out on the campaign trail for me? Can you help me get undecided women voters? Or recent immigrants, or people who would relate to your story?
It's a typical thing that first ladies do for their husbands who are campaigning, or their spouses who are campaigning. And I mean, Doug Emhoff is doing it for Vice President Harris.
So, I think that if there was something he could ask her to do, it would be campaign, not necessarily hawk the book. But she's chosen otherwise.
COLLINS: Yes, and the question is whether or not she would say yes.
Kate Bennett, thank you so much for that.
And you can see more of Kate Bennett, and I, talking about this story, about first ladies, and Melania's role in particular. That's this Sunday, on "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER."
I'm going to take you through a history of first ladies, including the four years that Melania Trump held that role. We're going to look at how it's evolved, how the next person could redefine what it means to be a presidential spouse.
That is this Sunday, right here on CNN, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern.
Coming up, here on THE SOURCE, a sitting Congressman dressed in blackface as Michael Jackson for Halloween when he was a college student. Republican Mike Lawler doesn't dispute the picture that it is him in 2006. But he is going to respond to it, right after this.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, an old photo has surfaced showing the Republican congressman from New York wearing blackface.
The New York Times reports that Mike Lawler, dressed as Michael Jackson, when Lawler was 20-years-old and a college student, visibly darkening his face, as he donned a red jacket and a black shirt for a Halloween costume. The Times says Lawler didn't dispute that the photo from 2006 is real.
And I should note, this comes as he is currently locked in a very tight race for reelection, running against former Democratic congressman, Mondaire Jones.
And Congressman Lawler joins me now.
And Congressman, thank you for being here tonight. Before we get to anything else, I do first want to just give you a chance, to address, for our viewers, for your constituents, the choices that you made, back when this photo was taken, around October, 2006.
REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, Kaitlan, thanks for having me.
Yesterday, I attended the funeral for the father of a friend. And when we went to the cemetery to bury him, we were approaching, and it turns out his gravestone is going to be right behind my dad's.
And on my dad's gravestone, it says, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Obviously, I can't change what happened 18 years ago. But I certainly, with wisdom and age, understand that that is not something I would do today, and certainly understand why people would be upset or offended by it. And for that, I'm sorry.
[21:45:00]
But, for me, there was no ill intent. There was no effort to malign or make fun of or disparage Black Americans.
It was really an effort to pay homage to somebody who was a musical idol for me. I've always loved Michael Jackson's music, and his dance moves, and his ability to entertain. Anyone who knows me knows that. And people who come visit my D.C. office can see today of a Andy Warhol painting of Michael Jackson hanging in my office.
So, this was really not what I think would -- could truly be construed as a blackface. But I certainly understand why people would be offended by it. And for that, I'm sorry.
COLLINS: Well, it seems clear from what you said. But just to clarify, for people watching, I mean, do you ever think it's OK for a White person to put on blackface?
LAWLER: No, of course not. And, in this instance, as I said to The New York Times, I had used a friend's bronzer, you know? But again, obviously, 18 years later, I certainly reflect upon and understand that -- how that can be construed.
But I think there is a stark difference between dressing up for Halloween, and paying homage to somebody you like and respect, versus dressing up in blackface to demean and dehumanize Black people, which is what minstrel shows and blackface historically was about. And that's obviously not what I was doing there.
COLLINS: Yes, and that's an important point is that, we have -- when this has become a thing, we've seen it with other politicians. Ralph Northam of Virginia, obviously, was actually a Michael Jackson costume as well. It's because blackface does have such an ugly history.
And you have 59,000 people, Black people in your district. And so, I just wonder, with your comment tonight, what would you say to one of them, if you were -- if you were speaking to someone, who said, That really bothers me that that happened once.
LAWLER: Well, look, certainly, and I have spoken to many of my constituents today, and in discussing it with them, and certainly understand how someone would take offense. And for that, I do apologize.
Because, to me, obviously, given the history in America, and given what we have seen with slavery, with racism, and the civil rights movement, obviously we should not and cannot tolerate the demeaning and dehumanization of Black people. And that is not something, certainly, that I would do or engage in or tolerate.
And so, again, I understand how this can be very upsetting to somebody. And so, certainly, I do apologize for that.
But for me, obviously, I think intent here is important. And there is a difference between when Governor Northam as a college student dressed up in blackface, standing next to somebody in a KKK hood, versus obviously me paying homage to Michael Jackson.
COLLINS: Can I ask about another detail in The New York Times story? It says a Michael Jackson biographer said that you attended parts of his criminal trial. You were in high school at the time. That's the trial in which Michael Jackson was accused of molesting a 13-year-old boy. It ended in acquittal.
But the biographer is saying, apparently, that you were removed from the courtroom, at one point, because you were saying derogatory things under your breath. Do you just want to comment on that?
LAWLER: Look, I -- J. Randy Taraborrelli is a friend. I worked as a researcher, if you will, for him, when he was covering the case for CBS News. At the time, I had gone out to California, to visit colleges with my family, and ended up coming up to the trial, for one day.
And I was in the courtroom. And the mother, at that point, the mother of the accuser, had testified that Michael Jackson was going to steal her children in a hot air balloon. And so, I muttered under my breath, Yes, OK. And did get removed from the courtroom. And obviously, not a -- not ideal.
But, to me, ultimately, obviously, in that case, a jury heard the trial, and he was acquitted.
COLLINS: Congressman Lawler, appreciate your willingness to come on, and address this photo tonight. Thank you.
LAWLER: Thanks, Kaitlan. Appreciate it.
COLLINS: Meanwhile, an investigation is underway, tonight, in Tennessee, where the factory that workers say they weren't allowed to leave in time when Hurricane Helene was tearing through.
Now, two people are dead, four others are missing. The family of one of those victims is going to join me next.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Some breaking news tonight, as there has been a major breakthrough to end that massive three-day port workers strike.
We are told, tonight, a tentative deal has been reached, and 50,000 workers, from Maine to Texas, are expected to return to their ports, tomorrow. That should open up the flow of things like bananas, cherries and sugar in and out of the U.S.
As a source tells CNN, the agreement on wages amounts to a $4 per hour raise for each year of the six-year contract. The final details are still being worked out, and the full agreement will need to be ratified by the rank-and-file members. But they will go back to work in the meantime.
[21:55:00]
Tonight, Hurricane Helene has now become the second deadliest hurricane to ever strike the U.S. mainland, in the past 50 years, only underneath Hurricane Katrina. 213 people have now died across the Southeast.
And in Tennessee, tonight, officials are now investigating after 11 workers at a plastics factory were swept away by Hurricane Helene's catastrophic flooding. Four of those workers are still missing tonight. Two have been confirmed dead.
The others that survived, say factory management refused to let them leave, even as floodwaters were surrounding the building.
Video shared by one of the workers at Impact Plastics shows them hanging on for their lives, after they tried to escape, clinging to industrial tubes as floodwaters are rushing by.
At one point, a Tennessee National Guard helicopter hoisted some survivors out of the water. Witnesses say several others were lost.
A spokesperson for the company, tonight, says that they will be cooperating with investigators, and I'm quoting them now, saying, "At no time were employees told that they would be fired if they left the facility."
One of the victims, Bertha Mendoza, had just celebrated her 56th birthday, last month. Look at her beautiful photo here.
(GRAPHIC IS SHOWN OF BERTHA MENDOZA)
COLLINS: My source, tonight, is her son, Guillermo Mendoza. And his attorney, Greg Coleman.
And I want to just thank you all for being here. Dad, you're here as well. And I just, I appreciate you being here during such a tough time for your family. And I'm so sorry to both of you.
Guillermo, can you just tell us, because you were actually able to talk to your mom that night. What did she say to you?
GUILLERMO MENDOZA, SON OF FACTORY WORKER KILLED IN HELENE FLOODING: Well, originally, she called me in the morning, saying, Son, it's getting -- it's pretty ugly outside. Don't go outside. Make sure not to take my grandchildren outside. She always cared to do that, whenever she felt like it just wasn't good weather. So, that was my first -- my first and last conversation with my mother.
COLLINS: So, she was worried about your safety and the safety of your kids?
G. MENDOZA: Yes. Again, she always prioritized the safety of her grandchildren, her children. That's just the kind of person she was, to always check up on her family.
COLLINS: Can you just tell me how you personally are feeling in this moment, what you've been able to learn, and what questions you still have, about what happened to your mom?
G. MENDOZA: How I feel? I'm broken. My heart is broken. I lost my mother, and my -- grandmother of my children. My father lost his wife of 38 years.
ELIAS MENDOZA (ph), HUSBAND OF FACTORY WORKER KILLED IN HELENE FLOODING: Married.
G. MENDOZA: Married. Of marriage.
We are not OK. But in the spirit of my mom, I know she wants us to come together, as a family, and support one another. So, we -- that's what we've done. For the -- for the most part, we are united as one, and we are coming together as a family, as she would want us to do.
COLLINS: And Greg, I know there are a lot of questions from a legal perspective that you have. You're representing the family.
Investigators in Tennessee say that they're investigating tonight.
And the company, as you just heard, said that they'll cooperate. They haven't been contacted, they say, by investigators yet.
But what do you say to the company saying, We didn't tell anyone they couldn't leave?
GREG COLEMAN, ATTORNEY FOR MENDOZA FAMILY: Well, Kaitlan, thanks.
And the problem with that narrative is that's not what a lot of people are saying or agreeing with. In fact, the exact opposite.
Look, you know this drill. Lawyers, we're supposed to deal in facts, and that's what we're going to deal with. We've already talked to several that, let's just say, are opposed to what the company is saying now, after all the destruction. COLLINS: Guillermo, as you're looking at this, do you hold -- or who do you hold responsible for what happened to your mom?
G. MENDOZA: I think, at this time, I would just refer to Greg.
We're just trying to heal as a family. Burying my mother with dignity. There's the time to heal. And it's right now with our family. And there will become a time to fight. But right now, we are just trying to come together and heal as a family.
COLLINS: Yes, I completely understand.
We can hear the kids there in the background.
It's just, it's heartbreaking, and I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Please give our thoughts to everyone, in your family, who's there, and your father.
Thank you for joining us. Guillermo Mendoza. And Greg Coleman. I appreciate you.
COLEMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
G. MENDOZA: Thank you so much.
COLLINS: Just thinking so much for that community.
[22:00:00]
But we do have an update tonight, as we did just get the preliminary internal investigation report, from Impact Plastics, that company.
They say the factory management actually let workers leave within minutes of the plant's power going out, and that the road in front of the plant appears, I'm quoting, "Appears to have been passable." The company says no one was ever trapped in the building or on its premises.
We're going to keep you updated on this very important story, and on what Tennessee officials find.
Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
