Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Cheney To GOP Voters: "Vote Your Conscience" & Don't Tell Anybody; UAW President: Trump's McDonald's Stop "A Joke"; Trump Suggests He's Better Than Presidents Lincoln & Washington. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 21, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER DEPUTY ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: --the law is quite clear on this, and what the standard is, and what you would get in trouble for. I don't know what to tell you--
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
WILLIAMS: --other than--
COOPER: He's got a legal team that he could probably pay for the--
WILLIAMS: He's got a legal team.
COOPER: --the legal defense.
WILLIAMS: He can pay for the legal team. He can pay.
COOPER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: I don't think he pays -- he actually can't pay 70-some (ph) million dollars.
COOPER: Yes. It'd be very silly.
WILLIAMS: But he probably could.
COOPER: Elliot Williams, thanks very much.
That's it for us. The news continues. Hope you join us, tomorrow, and for the Town Hall with Kamala Harris, on Wednesday, from Pennsylvania.
"THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Liz Cheney telling her fellow Republicans, Your secret is safe with me. As Vice President Harris is going all-in on reaching those few undecided voters that are left.
And from the golden escalator to the Golden Arches. Brand-new reaction to Trump's time working the fries at McDonald's, supporters say it was a brilliant move. My source tonight, the labor leader, Shawn Fain, says Trump was just playing dress-up.
And inside the numbers, with 15 days to go, why both candidates are fighting so hard to close a gap that might be key to victory.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Vice President Harris is just wrapping up a campaign stop, in her third blue wall state of the day, Wisconsin, after making a blitz through Pennsylvania and Michigan, with a striking new assist, at her side, from former Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who is hoping to help Harris, in these critical final 15 days, to win over moderate Republicans and Independents, by creating basically a provision structure, for them to do something a lot of them may have never done before. Vote for a Democrat. Cheney certainly hasn't.
But she is making a very public plea about what undecided voters should do, and could keep private.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZ CHENEY, (R) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: If people are uncertain, if people are thinking, Well, you know, I'm a conservative, I don't know that I can support Vice President Harris. I would say, I don't know if anybody is more conservative than I am, and--
(LAUGHTER)
CHENEY: You can vote your conscience and not ever have to say a word to anybody. And there will be millions of Republicans who do that on November 5th.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, you might hear that and be thinking to yourself, Who on earth is still undecided at this point? At least one of the candidates is also wondering the same thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: It's hard to believe you have undecided voters. I do hear about them. But you possibly do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's like talking about unicorns or something.
But there are voters, who have still not made up their minds yet. And given they may very well determine the outcome of this election, both campaigns are desperate to find them, tonight.
Trump spent the day stumping out in North Carolina. He held several events there, including a rally, where he again lied about FEMA and the hurricane response, as he stopped off in a storm zone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You didn't get the proper support from this administration. They spent their money on illegal migrants. They spent their money.
(BOOING)
TRUMP: They didn't have any money left for North Carolina.
We will end the looting, ransacking, raping and pillaging of North Carolina and, frankly, every other state in the union.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Again, that is not true. No matter how many times he says it, and no matter how effective it might be, it's just not true.
But when it comes to the campaign trail, and what the next two weeks are going to look like, Trump might be trying to pull a Harris, by having an unusual face join him out there on the road.
Liz Cheney is getting Vice President Harris out there, trying to court those Nikki Haley primary voters.
But Trump said today, he thinks Haley is actually going to be joining him out on the road. We'll see if she does.
My political sources tonight, to start us off:
Former Obama administration official, Van Jones.
Republican strategist and former Trump campaign adviser, David Urban.
And journalist and Co-Founder of Lift Our Voices, Gretchen Carlson.
David, what do you make of what you're hearing from Liz Cheney, saying, You actually can vote for a Democrat, and you don't have to tell your friends, your family. You can just keep it secret.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: I'm not so sure Liz Cheney is the best messenger for that, I mean.
COLLINS: Why not?
URBAN: Yes, because I don't think people in the -- people in the Republican Party don't view her as a Republican anymore. I think they see -- think that she, you know, she kind of left the party a while ago. She lost her race by the biggest margin of any sitting Congress person in history, 40-plus percent. And I think everyone knows she's got an ax to grind against Trump.
And the message that Trump sucks, right? I think every Democrats try that, they've thrown it against the wall. It hasn't stuck so far. So, I mean, coming from Liz Cheney doesn't make it any -- it doesn't make it any better.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well--
GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST, CO-FOUNDER, LIFT OUR VOICES: No, but then--
URBAN: I mean, the message isn't, Look how great Kamala Harris is.
JONES: Well it was.
URBAN: The message is, Trump sucks, Trump sucks, Trump sucks.
[21:05:00]
CARLSON: But they're not trying to go after the hardcore Republicans. They're trying to go after the very small percentage of still undecideds, and possibly women who might actually vote different when they go inside to vote, and it's secret. I actually believe that there may be a lot of women, who will do that, this cycle, because I think abortion is a much bigger issue than it's playing out in the polls.
JONES: And I thought it was really -- one of the things that she said that I think was really powerful, Liz Cheney, was that, Even people who are pro-life, who are anti-abortion, have been shocked and horrified by women bleeding to death, in parking lots.
Women, who through no fault of their own, can't get their doctor take them seriously, because the doctor is more afraid of going to jail than saving their life. Nobody wants that.
And so, when you have a Republican Party that's gone so extreme that they actually are allowing these things to happen. There is a permission structure. And I thought Liz Cheney's speaking to that very powerfully.
COLLINS: Well, can we listen to that actually?
URBAN: Well--
COLLINS: Because I agree with you, because Liz Cheney has been a staunch--
JONES: Staunch.
COLLINS: --opponent of abortion rights. She is not someone, who is a voter, who says, Well, actually, this is how I view this. But ever since Roe versus Wade was overturned.
I mean, she talked about this today. Listen to what she had to say about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHENEY: I think there are many of us around the country who have been pro-life, but who have watched what's going on in our states, since the Dobbs decision, and have watched state legislatures put in place laws that are resulting in women not getting the care they need.
In places like Texas, for example, the Attorney General is talking about suing -- is suing, to get access to women's medical records. That's not sustainable for us, as a country, and it has to change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
URBAN: So, I hear what she said, and I heard what you were saying, Gretchen.
But in places like Pennsylvania, where there are laws, 23 weeks, it's been that way for quite some time, you have a Democratic governor, Democratic legislature. I'm not sure, how salient is that? Is that going to be as big an issue, a big a motivator? I don't know. We're not going to know that answer until election.
Because I don't think -- and again, I don't mean to interrupt you. But are women, and you may have better answer in this, because I'm not in that category.
CARLSON: Yes.
URBAN: But what about--
COLLINS: Thank you for clearing that.
JONES: What are your pronouns? What are your pronouns?
URBAN: Exactly. And Van Jones -- Van Jones would lock me in the basement like he promised.
JONES: I'll.
URBAN: But are they single-issue voters here? Do they care about other issues as well. They care about the economy, being safe on the streets, they care about men and women sports, a lot of things that are facing women. Or are they single-issue voters here?
CARLSON: I think there are a lot of women that are a single-issue voter this election because of everything that has happened with Roe v. Wade.
But I do think this was an interesting strategy today. Because up until now, the messaging with Kamala Harris and Liz Cheney together has been to save democracy, that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy, which has been rising in the polls as an issue that's important to voters.
But this was a really interesting wrinkle today.
JONES: Yes. CARLSON: To go to abortion. And why is that? I mean, were they noticing in interior polls that maybe that wasn't resonating with Independents as much as they wanted it to, and they thought that maybe abortion has a much better chance of attracting women? Very interesting change today.
JONES: Sure.
COLLINS: Well, and Liz Cheney is such an interesting person, messenger, for this, because she is someone who maybe, if you are a more moderate conservative woman, she appeals to you on all the other issues, on safety, and on inflation, on maybe foreign policy. But she is -- like, she's saying, You can go vote and just not tell anyone.
JONES: And I think that's an important thing to point out. And you had some shy Trump voters that used to be ashamed to say they were for Trump. And there may be some shy Harris voters out there.
Also, just by the way, you can vote for Kamala Harris and get a better economy and more safety than voting for Donald Trump.
URBAN: Listen.
CARLSON: Well.
JONES: We can talk about the--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Here's all I noticed. This past month, the Harris campaign spent close to $300 million to Trump's roughly $80 million. Her numbers continue to nosedive, right?
JONES: No.
URBAN: They better hope this election comes sooner rather later.
COLLINS: Nosediving?
URBAN: OK.
JONES: A very small nose.
URBAN: They've gone for -- they've gone for --
JONES: Very small nose.
URBAN: No they've gone for -- listen.
JONES: And very small dive.
URBAN: They've gone from bigger numbers to smaller numbers, right? They continue -- their margins continue to shrink, nationally.
JONES: Yes.
URBAN: In states like Pennsylvania, you see Dave McCormick for this. So the Cook Report puts Pennsylvania as a toss-up now.
CARLSON: Yes.
URBAN: In the Casey race.
JONES: Sure.
URBAN: What does that mean?
COLLINS: Well--
URBAN: Why is Bob Casey doing campaigns with Donald Trump and him, and not Kamala Harris?
CARLSON: Well, it depends on what polls you're looking at. Because there's a new AP poll today that has Harris beating Trump on the economy.
JONES: Yes.
CARLSON: So, when you look at that, 46 percent prefer Harris policies on taxes for middle-class, only 35 for Donald Trump. This is really interesting, because the majority, 62 percent, still believe the economy is in a poor condition. So, the idea that they're putting Harris out in front, with a track record of the last four years, as the VP to Biden, is fascinating to me.
COLLINS: Yes, his record on the economy has not stuck to her as much as people might have expected. We'll see.
But David, I'm curious what you think about this. Because one of the places where they were stumping today was in Chester County, Pennsylvania. They were also in Oakland County, Michigan, and Waukesha County, in Wisconsin.
URBAN: Yes.
COLLINS: Those are places where Nikki Haley did well.
URBAN: Yes.
COLLINS: When she was running in the primary. Especially in Oakland County, Michigan, she got 49,000 votes there. I mean, those are the people--
URBAN: Yes.
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: --that they're trying to reach.
URBAN: Yes.
COLLINS: We haven't seen Haley out on the campaign trail--
URBAN: No. And she-- COLLINS: --with Donald Trump even.
[21:10:00]
URBAN: Listen, and she may come. She may not come. I'm not quite sure that Nikki Haley shows up. That Nikki Haley voters are going to vote for Donald Trump, just because Nikki Haley's standing next to him, right? I'm not sure that--
JONES: Yes.
URBAN: I mean, quite frankly, just because Nikki Haley says vote for Donald Trump, you know?
JONES: Yes.
URBAN: Are women going to be swayed and say, OK, well now Nikki Haley says it's OK.
CARLSON: I think--
URBAN: Just like -- just like, I don't think people would just because you have Liz Cheney saying, like, I'm a conservative, vote conservatives.
JONES: I--
URBAN: Probably get transfers.
JONES: I think -- I think if Nikki Haley comes out, and takes a blowtorch to Kamala Harris, I do think that people who are wobbling, that might be effective. I think -- I think Nikki Haley matters in this country.
CARLSON: I do too.
JONES: I think she matters to people on both sides.
CARLSON: And I think that it has been--
URBAN: You have more faith in that.
CARLSON: --a fatal error for Donald Trump to not get her out there sooner.
JONES: Yes--
CARLSON: But that--
JONES: Yes--
CARLSON: That could be because he wants to be the one that wins. He does not want to be able to say that--
JONES: I'd be--
CARLSON: --somebody else helped him.
JONES: I'd be very happy for her to stay home.
COLLINS: Well but--
URBAN: And leave me (ph) in the closet.
COLLINS: But also, we're talking about--
JONES: You can bet.
COLLINS: --who's already voting.
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, we've got two weeks left, and we've seen how this race has not changed a lot. The numbers may have shifted slightly, but they haven't changed that much.
But Van, there's a lot of early voting happening right now. You can see some of the numbers already about--
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: --mail ballots that have been cast, over 10 million, in- person, over 4 million people. Total 14 million people have already voted.
JONES: That's great.
COLLINS: It's hard to know what it means.
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: Because in 2020, we could kind of tell, because if you're voting by mail, you're probably a Democrat--
JONES: You're a Democrat.
COLLINS: --because Trump was saying, Don't vote by mail. It's a little harder to know this time around.
JONES: It's hard to know if you're sitting here. But I'll tell you what. The campaigns know, especially in the swing states. There's a list of people. And the good thing about early voting, when you're trying to run a campaign, when you're -- when you're running ground is--
URBAN: Yes.
JONES: --if you know that a certain number of people have already cast their vote, you can concentrate your effort on the ones who haven't.
URBAN: Yes.
JONES: --until the campaigns know. And you are correct that more Republicans are voting early now. But Democrats vote early, and I'm proud of what we're doing.
COLLINS: I mean, David, when you talk to people inside the Trump campaign, how are they feeling? Because it seemed to me that they had a period, where it was very dark, and they were -- they were getting very worried about the fundraising numbers and about just the polling numbers. It seemed to shift a little last week. It's not totally clear to me why. But there did seem to be a better mood inside the Trump world.
URBAN: They had a great week.
JONES: It's--
URBAN: They had a great week last week. That's why. They've had a great week. Couple--
JONES: Well, David.
URBAN: Listen, I know -- I know we have -- I know we have the skewed view here of how you want to see the world in anti-Trump terms. But take a look. I wish we had the tape.
JONES: Dancing all week (ph).
URBAN: Hold on now. Take a look at the crowds outside of Feasterville, on the way to the McDonald's. When I travel with the Trump campaign, when I'm out there seeing this, it's just not in Feasterville. It's in every town in Pennsylvania. People are lining. I didn't see it in 2016, like that.
JONES: Yes.
URBAN: I sure didn't see it in 2020.
JONES: Yes.
URBAN: The enthusiasm for Donald Trump during this campaign is, to paraphrase, spinal tap in the 11, right?
JONES: No.
URBAN: And it is -- it is -- it is unprecedented.
JONES: Look--
URBAN: And I don't see that. Listen, I don't feel or see the same thing.
JONES: Look, I--
CARLSON: If you're going to talk about crowd size, though?
JONES: Yes.
CARLSON: Kamala Harris has been commanding--
URBAN: No, no, but I don't feel or seeing -- I don't--
CARLSON: --huge crowds as well.
URBAN: I get it. But I don't feel it--
CARLSON: So, there's--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: --I don't feel it on the ground.
JONES: Yes.
URBAN: Come to Beaver County with me, right?
JONES: Listen, I--
URBAN: Come to some of these places in Pennsylvania, and get a sense.
COLLINS: But if you're going to a Harris event, do you think it'd be different? I mean, you're going--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: What's that?
JONES: It's one thing. Every--
URBAN: No, no, I'm--
JONES: Everybody goes to Harris events.
URBAN: I'm just seeing--
JONES: Comes back to a--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: No, no, no, no, no. Listen.
JONES: --to a Beyonce concert. Look, that's--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: I'm just talking about driving around. I'm talking about driving around, going to Walmart (ph).
JONES: Here's what -- here's what--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: --asking people, just talking to them.
JONES: You know what I'm talking about-- URBAN: Nobody know -- you say, if you say, Hey, what do you think about the election? Asking people, asking your Uber drivers, right? Talk to people, and see what they're voting for. That's how you, you get out.
JONES: Well--
URBAN: That's how you do it.
COLLINS: Van?
URBAN: You don't sit around here, and talking to--
JONES: I'm not sitting around here talking to you. I'm trying to beat you, in Pennsylvania. Every day. And what I'm telling you is, when your candidate's up there, doing this, for 40 minutes, and you say--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Well a lot of the people -- listen--
JONES: Yes.
URBAN: People loved it it.
JONES: That's crazy, people.
URBAN: No, they loved it.
JONES: You are insane.
URBAN: No, they loved it.
COLLINS: Palmer--
JONES: No, nobody loved it.
URBAN: Listen, the people--
JONES: The people on stage did not love that.
URBAN: The people loved that.
JONES: That was not good.
URBAN: The people who were there, in (inaudible) who went to that rock concert, they loved it. I'm telling you, they loved it. They loved it. When -- listen, you've been to these events. When two people take a nosedive, you got to wait for the EMTs to come.
JONES: Yes, but you don't--
URBAN: I mean, it is a big event.
JONES: But you don't dance to the YMCA. People have fainted before.
URBAN: Yes, well they loved it
JONES: Nobody's done that before.
URBAN: Well they loved it. Listen--
JONES: Yes, I'm sorry. I know we got to go to the commercial break.
URBAN: They loved it.
JONES: But this guy thinks last week was good. That lets you know where we are in the race.
URBAN: No, it was good.
COLLINS: We're going to let--
JONES: Last week was terrible.
COLLINS: We're going to let these two handle it out during the break.
CARLSON: Yes.
COLLINS: And we'll come back with a resolution for you. Don't worry. The whole panel is sticking around.
Up next. As Trump's allies are trying to clean up his enemies from within comments, Trump is saying, No, no, I meant it. I meant it all. We're going to play the sound for you.
Meanwhile, in Pennsylvania, Trump is cooking up some trouble, along with those fries, at McDonald's, a stop that he planned so he could troll Vice President Harris.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Donald Trump is declining to let his Republican allies clean up his own comments, after the Speaker of the House, and his running mate, both trying to defend what he has been saying repeatedly lately, talking about using the U.S. Military to go after his political opponents.
Trump said this, when he was asked about calling them, enemies from within.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD KURTZ, FOX NEWS HOST: The enemy within is a pretty ominous phrase if you're talking about other Americans.
TRUMP: Accurate.
That's an enemy from within. That's really -- that is a threat to democracy. These are bad people. We have a lot of bad people. But when you look at Shifty Schiff and some of the others, yes, they are to me, the enemy from within.
KURTZ: He's a political opponent of yours.
TRUMP: He's not -- no, no, no.
KURTZ: Is he the enemy?
TRUMP: He's a -- well, he's, of course, he's an enemy. He's an enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is Arizona Democratic senator, Mark Kelly, who is not only campaigning for the Harris-Walz ticket. The former Navy combat pilot is even flying his own plane to reach rural voters, starting tomorrow.
Senator, great to have you here.
[21:20:00]
On that comment, though, that you just heard from Donald Trump. I wonder what goes through your mind when you hear Republicans saying, No, no, that's not what Donald Trump was talking about, which is what both Speaker Johnson and Senator Vance did, over the weekend.
And then, Trump goes and makes very clear, he meant Democrats who were against him, when he said that.
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Yes, he's pretty clear about it, Kaitlan.
And what I -- you know, what I think about is that one of the fundamental, structurally, in a democracy, is that we're all not going to agree on everything, and we're going to have disagreements and differences of opinion. And Donald Trump doesn't like that. And he thinks that people that disagree with him are now his enemies.
Kamala Harris, on the other hand, is running to be President for all of America, not just the people that agree with her.
So, my concern here is that it was clear, during the first four years of Donald Trump as president, that he wants to represent the people that are his supporters and not the rest of the country.
COLLINS: Speaking of who's representing whom, we're looking at the numbers here as we're closing in on these final two weeks. And your home state could be decisive in about two weeks from now.
There's new polling, from The Washington Post, that shows Trump is actually at his strongest in Arizona, of the swing states. He's got an edge of six percentage points there, among registered voters. When it's likely voters, he's got that three-point advantage.
You, from your experience running, you know how to win Republicans and Independents in Arizona. What do you think that Vice President Harris needs to be doing differently here?
KELLY: Well, we've got a couple weeks to go.
And statewide elections, in Arizona, for Democrats, I think, especially, it's going to be close. When Kyrsten Sinema won in 2018, it was the first time a Democrat was elected to the U.S. Senate in decades. When I won in 2020, that was the first time since the 1950s that we had two Democrats at the same time. Last election, in 2022, the Attorney General was elected with by 280 votes in a state-wide race. So, we know they're going to be close.
The Vice President has been here. She's getting around the state. The second gentleman was here. Tim Walz was here. Folks are going to be back.
I'm flying all over the state to get out the message that the contrast between the two candidates could not be more clear. On one hand, we have an experienced prosecutor, Attorney General, U.S. Senator, a Vice President that wants to lead this country into the future. On the other hand, Donald Trump is a convicted felon, who is now talking about the enemies from within, as you clearly stated. And, I mean, just issue after issue.
I'm wondering when he's going to release his medical records. Because when you listen to him, you listen to these comments and others, and you see him giving a speech? There's clearly something going on. The guy is nearly 80-years-old, and he won't let the American public know what the situation is with his health care.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, he said he's close to 80 -- or he wasn't even close to 80, the other day, I believe.
But on those numbers, though. Because, in Arizona, there is a Democrat on the ticket as well, and the -- for the Senate seat that's open. Ruben Gallego is running against Kari Lake. He's polling better than Harris is. Kari Lake is polling worse than Donald Trump is. I mean, what does that say about Harris' standing.
And you said, she's got a couple weeks left. It's only two weeks. That's not very much time for her.
KELLY: Well, I think Donald Trump is as flawed a candidate as Kari Lake is.
But this is now, we're in the part of the election, where it's all about getting out the vote. Knocking on doors, making phone calls. We have a 120,000 volunteers in the State of Arizona, people that are doing that basic hard work of getting people, to turn in their ballots, to know that the Election Day is on November 5th, to show up and vote. We have an army of people doing this work.
And we're putting together the coalitions that we need, whether they're Latino voters or LDS, Mormon voters, Republicans. Senator Jeff Flake has endorsed Kamala Harris. Jim McCain, John McCain's son has endorsed the Vice President for President of the United States. So, we're putting together the coalition we need.
We're getting the message out. We're knocking on hundreds of thousands of doors, making hundreds of thousands, if not, in excess of a million phone calls. And I believe that not only because Kamala Harris is a better candidate, and is equipped to be President of the United States, and Donald Trump should be nowhere near the Oval Office again.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:25:00]
KELLY: I also think that we're doing the work necessary, to get her across the finish line here.
COLLINS: But if she's a better candidate, then why do you think he is at his strongest in Arizona?
KELLY: Well, I think statewide races in Arizona are always going to be close. We have a Republican registration advantage here, by 4 percent. We've got a lot of independent voters.
To win an election, a statewide race, in the State of Arizona, you got to get a bunch of Republicans to vote for her -- for you. And in her case, she's building that coalition of people that are going to support her. And I'm confident she's going to win Arizona, she's going to be the next President.
COLLINS: We will see, and we'll find out just maybe two weeks from today, maybe a little bit longer, depending on how long it takes to count.
Senator Mark Kelly, thank you for your time tonight.
KELLY: Kaitlan, thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. After Donald Trump attempted to troll Kamala Harris by going into the kitchen at McDonald's. Harris now responding today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did you work at a McDonald's?
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Did I? I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Vice President Harris, seizing on Donald Trump's non-answer, when he was asked about raising the minimum wage, as he was learning how to work the fryer, at a Pennsylvania McDonald's, over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: My opponent, Donald Trump, does not believe we should raise minimum wage. And I think everyone knows that the current federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour, which means that the person who is working a full day, and working full weeks, will make $15,000 a year, which is essentially poverty wages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I should note. Trump was manning the Golden Arches drive- thru, in an attempt to troll Vice President, as he has said, without evidence, that she didn't really work there, when she says she did in her college years, which she has been talking about since about 2019.
My source tonight is the President of the United Auto Workers, and has been actively campaigning for Vice President Harris. Shawn Fain joins me now.
It's great to have you here.
When you look at this stop from Donald Trump, over the weekend, at this McDonald's, how do you think it resonates with voters?
SHAWN FAIN, PRESIDENT, UNITED AUTO WORKERS: I think it's a joke, and I think most voters see it that way.
I mean, let's be real. I mean, Donald Trump wants to play pretend, and put on a show, and play dress-up, and act like he understands what working-class people go through, what fast-food workers go through.
And you think about that for a minute. I mean, the reality of this was, was they shut this McDonald's down. It was closed off to the public. It was franchisees and campaign supporters that were screened, and allowed to be customers. And Trump's standing out the drive-thru window, taking pictures with people coming in. And, I mean, this is not the life of a McDonald's worker.
These workers have to work at a furious pace. They have to get people through the line, and to make money, for the company, at poverty wages. And so, it's, to me, it's a slam, and it's an insult to people that have to do that work every day, that are trying to pay the bills, at the end of the week. And that's their biggest fear, is getting their bills paid. Trump doesn't understand that. So, I think this whole charade was a joke.
But the reality of this is, it's very interesting, too. Kamala Harris knows what that life is like. She knows what it's like to have to work for that money, and to be able to pay the bills, at the end of the week. She knows what struggle is. She worked her way through the ranks. And so, that's really, to me, one of the distinct differences between these two candidates.
COLLINS: Well, you're saying you--
FAIN: Trump went to a members-only. Basically, it was a -- like a country club type, you know? This was a members-only McDonald's.
COLLINS: You're saying, you see through this that, I mean, you seem to be arguing, it's a political stunt. Correct me, if you're saying otherwise. But do you-- FAIN: Yes.
COLLINS: Do you worry that there's -- there are voters probably, out there, who see this and think, That's great that he came to McDonald's. This was a smart political move. Yes, no one expects that he actually knows what it's like, to rely on a paycheck you're getting from McDonald's.
But what about -- do you have any concerns about voters that you talk to, or people who think that this is a savvy political move?
FAIN: Well, I mean, a die-hard Trump supporter's going to say, What a great move it was, and how -- you know, whatever they want to say.
But at the end of the day, I think of the workers who work there, that witness that, and just witness their restaurant be shut down. But they know the reality of what their struggle is every day. And so, I think workers that work in this industry see it for what it is.
COLLINS: He was hanging out of the drive-thru window, taking questions from reporters who were staged outside. And one of them asked him about the minimum wage. Because, as Harris pointed out, there, it's $7.25, federally. It's still that in Pennsylvania as well.
FAIN: Yes.
COLLINS: This is how Donald Trump answered what he thought about increasing--
FAIN: Yes.
COLLINS: --the federal minimum wage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I think this. I think these people work hard. They're great. And I just saw something -- a process that's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing to see. These are great franchises.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, that's obviously not a yes.
Do you think that he'd actually try to raise the minimum wage, if he was in the White House again?
FAIN: Well, it seems like every time that it's put on the table to raise the minimum wage, we know which party votes against it every time.
And Donald Trump, again, his non-answer. He thinks the franchises are great. He thinks the business model is great. And again, it is for the people at the top. And that's the people that Donald Trump represents. That's what his campaign is about. I mean, he's got Elon Musk throwing money at him.
[21:35:00]
We just saw a report, yesterday, where three billionaires have funneled over $220 million to Trump's campaign, you know? That's what this election is about. With Donald Trump and the Elon Musk of the world, our country is for sale to the highest bidder.
But the great equalizer in this election is the working-class people have the vote. So, we have to vote for our pocketbooks. We have to vote for the things that matter. And Donald Trump doesn't stand for those things. He could care less about raising the minimum wage.
COLLINS: Well, Elon Musk is giving out a million dollars a day to registered voters, in Pennsylvania--
FAIN: Yes.
COLLINS: --and in states, where that obviously could decide this election. What do you make of that?
FAIN: I think it's, again, just what I said. I believe, this is a sad reality, and it's the motto -- to me, it's the motto of the billionaire class. If you can't beat it, buy it. And they're trying to buy the election. Musk has already bought Trump. He pretty much is his puppeteer now. And so, that's their mission, is to be able to just buy everything, and to rule the world.
And -- but again, the great equalizer in that is working-class people have the votes. We have the votes. We just have to get out there, and vote, and vote for people that actually understand what work is, like Kamala Harris and Governor Tim Walz, who actually, you know, Tim Walz, a teacher, he knows what struggle is. He's worked his way up through the ranks.
So, there's two very distinct differences in these two candidacies here. So, one represents a billionaire class and divides the people. And the other, Harris and Walz, unite the working-class people, and unite the people, and they preach about unity, bringing the nation together.
COLLINS: Shawn Fain, as always, thank you for your time.
FAIN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Both nominees, I should note, tonight, as we get into these final critical days, are turning to the other gender, in hopes of bridging a stark gap, before time runs out. We'll look at the numbers ahead.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In an election that is going to be all about the margins, there is one divide that could make the difference in who wins the White House. And it's between men and women. Right now, a swing state poll, a new one, shows that Vice President Harris is leading among female voters by seven points, while Trump is leading among male voters by the exact same percentage.
CNN's Senior Data Reporter, Harry Enten, is here, along with our astute political panel.
Harry, I mean, if we get to two weeks from today, is gender going to be the defining part of this election, do you think?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL DATA REPORTER: I don't know if it's going to be the defining part. But it's going to be one of the defining parts, right? You saw it in that poll. If you take a look, nationally.
In fact the aggregates of the national polls actually show a larger gender gap. And what's interesting about it is that it shows that female, women voters are voting basically the same, as they did four years ago. While male voters have moved significantly further to right with Trump. I'll leave it to the panel to discuss why that might be the case.
But it's more than just a gender gap. What's so interesting to me is the gender gap by age, right? So, if you look at voters under the age of 30, you take an aggregate of the last three New York Times polls, as my buddy Nate Cohn did over there, it's not just a little gender gap. It's a freaking valley. It's huge. It's huge.
I mean, female voters under the age of 30 are favoring Democrats by nearly 40 points, while male voters under the age of 30 are favoring Donald Trump by nearly 20 points. So, the bottom line is, if gender gaps have been a thing in American politics, expect them only to become a bigger thing, as we go on and on in the years and years.
COLLINS: Well is it -- is it just for this race in particular, with Donald Trump in it? Or is it just overall?
ENTEN: I think that this is an overall thing that's going on. We've seen the gender gap become bigger, over the last few election cycles, regardless of whether Donald Trump is in the race or not.
But what's the defining difference between now versus 2020? I mean, Donald Trump was on the ticket, both times. It may be that you have a woman running as the Democratic presidential nominee. Or, I think the most logical explanation is the fact that Roe v. Wade was overturned, obviously in 2022.
And if you look at the most important issues, between men and women, women are 20 points more likely to say abortion is most important issue to their November vote than men are.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, Gretchen, all the time, Trump says, I don't have a problem with women voters. People tell me I do, but I don't. He doesn't think that he does, even though the numbers obviously show that.
I mean, what do you attribute the changes that Harry is talking about there to?
CARLSON: I think this is the boys versus girls election. It's shaping up to be that. But what they're at odds about are not the issues that are rating the highest, the economy, the crisis at the border. These are cultural issues.
And the difference between the last election, I believe, is that we've had more and more of Trump. He has allowed men, who feel disenfranchised to feel better when he's in charge. And we have more and more men who are listening to bro podcasts. I mean, why is Joe Rogan so popular right now, OK?
Trump has been playing into the 1960 stereotypes of, Let's bring the power back to men. And you exacerbate that by having a woman that he's running against. And Trump, I think, on purpose, does things, like call her stupid. He's playing to that base of men that he hopes will come out and vote for him.
URBAN: But why is Joe -- Joe Rogan's popular, because of Joe Rogan, not because of Donald Trump.
CARLSON: Because he says similar things to what Donald Trump talks about.
URBAN: No but--
CARLSON: And that invigorates men to want to come--
URBAN: But -- but--
CARLSON: Go back to the olden days where they had more power.
URBAN: But Gretchen -- but Gretchen, don't you think that Joe Rogan stands on his own outside of Trump? Joe Rogan is--
JONES: Yes--
URBAN: --wildly popular--
CARLSON: I think--
URBAN: --for reasons--
CARLSON: I think--
URBAN: --unrelated to Donald Trump.
CARLSON: I think he's part of this whole process of Trump becoming popular.
URBAN: I would -- I would -- I would suggest that maybe that it's a, you know, a correction for the over-wokeness in America, right?
CARLSON: Possibly.
[21:45:00] URBAN: That that swing that you see, that people are feeling like we talked about backstage a bit, like the sports you watch, the Charlamagne tha God thing on the, he's like saying, Hey, I saw that commercial during the football game, I'm not so sure about Kamala Harris funding transgender surgeries for prisoners.
JONES: But--
URBAN: And this resonates across not just White men, but men in general.
JONES: Though Charlamagne is still for Kamala.
URBAN: I understand.
JONES: But I do--
URBAN: But he saw that -- he saw that ad.
JONES: I do think that there's something -- something happening for men in general, non-college men, that where the Democratic Party doesn't feel as welcoming, sometimes.
I think if you are a straight White guy, and you're not ashamed of being a straight White guy, you may not be invited to the Progressive party. You may be expected to genuflect a little bit before you walk through the door, and people don't like that.
And so, I do think that we have to, as a party, recognize you can be pro-woman and also be pro-bro.
ENTEN: Yes.
JONES: Like, you can -- like, some of the best, strongest guys in the world are guys that respect women, that support women.
CARLSON: Yes.
JONES: These things shouldn't be in conflict. And I think Democrats are allowing them to be get conflicted.
URBAN: They're doing--
COLLINS: Well, is Harris doing enough of that, right now? Because for all the issues Donald Trump is having with women, she's having the same with getting men over to herself.
JONES: Yes, look, I mean, I think it -- you can't underestimate sexism. That's true.
But I think that what I've seen Kamala Harris doing over the past week has been great, because she's actually been leaning forward to especially African American men, and saying, I see you. I care about you. I want you to win. I want you to be successful. I want you to be an owner. Want you to be a head of household.
All those are things that some people in our party are not comfortable with? Kamala Harris is, and I think, is working with Black men.
ENTEN: Two little, quick nuggets for you.
What's one of the best predictors of someone who voted for Joe Biden, in 2020, and now says they're going to vote for Donald Trump in 2024? It's actually having a very favorable view of Joe Rogan, interestingly enough, right?
CARLSON: Ha.
ENTEN: What's another little nugget? I will note, just anecdotally, I talked to the folks that I know. Pretty much all the women are voting the exact same way, as they were going to vote four years ago. It's actually the men, who seem to be changing their minds. Is that a correction of wokeness? I don't know, although I'm not sure exactly where my friends made on wokeness scale.
COLLINS: Well, and we may see why women are not changing their minds.
I mean, listen to Donald Trump. He is -- you talk about what Harris is doing to try to get men over to her side. Trump doesn't recognize, or won't recognize he has an issue with women and is saying things like this, out on the campaign trail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Arnold Palmer was all man, and I say that in all due respect to women. And I love women.
This man was strong and tough, and I refuse to say it, but when he took showers with the other pros, they came out of there, they said, Oh my God--
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: --that's unbelievable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I count one, two, three, four, five dudes behind him laughing at that. But I mean.
CARLSON: OK, look, I know a lot of people have said that this is Trump derange, he goes off the rails. He says all this crap that nobody believes all this other stuff.
I think that this was on purpose. This is his full-throttle attempt to get at men and their manhood. And no offense to guys on this panel. But what man does not like people talking about their manhood, OK?
URBAN: Whoa. Whoa.
ENTEN: Whoa.
CARLSON: I'm just saying.
URBAN: Not me. You can strike me off that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That is what we were just discussing.
JONES: Right off of that one.
URBAN: Stick to the women, Gretchen.
CARLSON: OK, well, I've known a few men in my day.
JONES: Well.
CARLSON: And I'm just going to stand by that statement.
URBAN: OK. All right.
CARLSON: He is hoping to God that they are listening to that and saying, Wow, he's talking about me, and I like Donald Trump, and I'm going to go out and vote for him.
JONES: Yes. That's--
CARLSON: I think that this is--
URBAN: I'm not. I'm not--
JONES: Stick to the women.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: I will defer to you on women's issues, Gretchen.
JONES: You don't know what you're talking about.
URBAN: I might--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: --little deep water here. I'm just going to say, like let it go.
CARLSON: Oh. I--
ENTEN: I ain't getting canceled tonight, I'm telling you.
CARLSON: I got that fun.
ENTEN: No way.
CARLSON: I don't know why you guys are so flustered.
COLLINS: Can we talk about Mark Robinson, before we go?
ENTEN: Yes.
JONES: Yes, absolutely.
CARLSON: Oh, God.
COLLINS: Some just say--
JONES: 100 percent.
COLLINS: Harry.
URBAN: Look, it's not (ph) going to get any better.
CARLSON: Sorry.
COLLINS: We've been looking at the numbers in North Carolina. I think Trump's up by four, in the new Washington Post poll that was out today. But he was asked about Mark Robinson today, after obviously CNN reported on the comments that he made, calling himself a Black Nazi on a porn site.
Here's what Trump said about Mark Robinson today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you still endorse Mark Robinson?
TRUMP: I'm not familiar with the race right now. I haven't looked, I haven't seen it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Not familiar with this, "I haven't seen it."
CARLSON: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, Trump has enthusiastically endorsed him--
ENTEN: Sure.
COLLINS: --before this CNN report came out.
ENTEN: Sure.
JONES: Called him Martin Luther -- Martin Luther--
COLLINS: He called him Martin Luther King--
JONES: --Luther King on steroids.
ENTEN: I mean, look, Donald Trump knows he has to win the State of North Carolina if he wants to be re-elected as President of the United States. It's much more of a must-win for him than it is for Kamala Harris. And I think that's part of what those comments are about today.
URBAN: I don't know, Mark. I don't know. Mark, who?
ENTEN: Who?
COLLINS: Yes, that's what Republicans would like to say. He will still be on the ballot.
Thanks everyone for sticking with us through that.
[21:50:00]
Up next. After knocking Abe Lincoln's handling of the Civil War, yes, Trump did that, he is talking about him again. We'll play you those comments after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Less than a week after criticizing Abraham Lincoln for not settling the Civil War, Donald Trump brought up Lincoln again, claiming that the Border Patrol union told him this, after they offered Trump their endorsement.
[21:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They didn't only endorse me, saying, I'm the greatest president there's ever been.
Well, I said, What about George Washington?
No, you're better.
What about Lincoln? What about Abraham Lincoln?
Nope, you're better.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: They said, I'm tougher on the border than Abraham Lincoln, right, than Honest Abe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Oh boy.
My source tonight is the Pulitzer Prize winning presidential historian, Doris Kearns Goodwin, who is also the Author of the new book, "The Leadership Journey: How Four Kids Became President."
And Doris, and so great to have you.
In your, you know, as a student of history, have you ever had a former President claim that they were the greatest president, the U.S. had ever had?
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN, AUTHOR, "THE LEADERSHIP JOURNEY": There is not a single president that I know that has ever claimed that. And when you think of it, I mean, it's an impossible thought for a president, no matter what he says, to determine how history is going to regard him. It's going to be generations of historians, who will look back at the presidency. It's going to be public sentiment, over a period of time.
And no matter what, so far, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, after 250 years, historians and the public sentiment claim they are the greatest. So that history is not on the side, I think, of Mr. Trump, in claiming that he is the greatest from this moment in time.
COLLINS: Well, and in your new book, you take a look at the -- from childhood to the presidency. And for Abe Lincoln himself, and Donald Trump, I mean, could two people be more different, in terms of navigating difficult conflict with political opponents?
KEARNS GOODWIN: I think what the qualities are that I look at, that the presidents that I've studied, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, and Lyndon Johnson, had, that made them able to navigate difficult times, are these kind of qualities.
And just think of whether President Trump, former President Trump, has these qualities.
Humility, the ability to acknowledge errors and learn from your mistakes. Empathy, the understanding of other people's point of view. Resilience, to get through tough times.
Ernest Hemingway once said, everyone is broken by life, but afterwards, some are strong in the broken places. How true that was for Lincoln, who went after perseverance, to have to educate himself, and make himself the man he was, accountability, compassion.
And most importantly, the guys who become the president, after a while, your drive for success is in you. And maybe everybody is ambitious for oneself at the beginning. But in the end, you are ambitious for something larger than yourself.
And in Abraham Lincoln's case, he was willing, actually, in the summer of 1864, to lose the election, because he was told he had to compromise on slavery, in order to win the election, because so many hundreds of thousands had been dead. He said, I'd be damned in time and eternity if I returned the black warriors to slavery.
As a result, he was able to win the election because Atlanta fell and the mood of the North changed. But that willingness to put country over party, country over self, is the most important thing we see in these characters.
And how he could claim right now that he is the greatest president of all without those qualities? Those are the qualities that make up character.
COLLINS: Yes.
KEARNS GOODWIN: And that's what we need in our presidents. COLLINS: Yes, and as we look at this and Trump is trying to return to the Oval Office, one thing that he's promising to do is to use this centuries-old law to deport immigrants. And it's only been used three times in the nation's history, every time when the U.S. was at war.
And I just wonder, as you've looked at this, and to what it would mean for him to use the Aliens Act of 1798. First off, just the significance of hearing that promise from a presidential candidate in 2024.
KEARNS GOODWIN: Yes. I mean, actually saying he would invoke it, which would mean that he could deport aliens, claiming that they were dangerous to the country, and that he could also stop people from criticizing the government and put them in prison.
I mean, this act -- these acts, those Alien acts, are considered unconstitutional. Historians claim they were one of the biggest blunders. Joe Ellis, the great historian from the early days of the Adams administration. And the idea of invoking that Act now. I mean, that's one of the controversies of today.
This is the most important, the most threatening, the most dangerous thing that he has said today. And because he's making us laugh about the size of Arnold Palmer's penis, it's even embarrassing to have to be talking about that, it takes the distraction away from what we should be seeing, which is something really scary right now.
COLLINS: Yes, I think that's a great point. And also, just to hear you talk about your study of a character -- of a president learning from their mistakes and not being afraid to admit them.
KEARNS GOODWIN: That's what true humility is. It's not humbleness. It's the awareness that you're aware that you have strengths, but you also have weaknesses. And you know what you don't know.
I mean, thinking of opponents. When Abraham Lincoln came in, the first night of his presidency, when he won the election, he made the decision to put his three opponents, who were better-known, better- educated, more celebrated, each one thought he should be president instead of Lincoln, he put them in his cabinet. And that's the kind of humility that you need. Confidence and humility.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Yes, it's just, it's an amazing look, especially as we're two weeks out from the election.
Doris Kearns Goodwin, always love talking to you. Thank you for joining. Congrats on the new book.
KEARNS GOODWIN: Thank you so much.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much for joining us. Be sure to read Doris' new book.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
