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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Gen. John Kelly On The Record: Trump Meets Definition Of "Fascist"; Biden On Trump: We Need To "Lock Him Up... Politically." Giuliani Ordered To Turn Over NYC Penthouse To Election Workers. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 22, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
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The news continues, right now. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Donald Trump's former Chief of Staff, General John Kelly going on the record, two weeks before Election Day, saying that Donald Trump meets the definition of a fascist, and that he said nice things about Hitler.
And guess who's back, back again? Eminem is joining President Obama, on the campaign trail, right now, for Vice President Harris in Detroit. We'll take you there, live, in a moment.
Plus, the New York City penthouse, the Mercedes, the fancy watches, Rudy Giuliani was just ordered to turn it all over to the two former election workers that he defamed. Their attorney is here tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
As we come on the air tonight, with millions of voters already casting their ballots, and two weeks to go until Election Day, a major figure in the Trump White House is now speaking out. In a rare occurrence for General John Kelly, a man who chooses his words very carefully.
John Kelly, of course, was the longest-serving Chief of Staff to Donald Trump. He's a retired Marine Corps General. And he's now giving interviews to The Atlantic, and to The New York Times, with warnings about the President that he once served.
At one point, in his conversation with The Times, General Kelly reads the definition of a fascist, and then says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KELLY, FORMER TRUMP CHIEF OF STAFF: Certainly the former President is in the far-right area, he's certainly an authoritarian, admires people who are dictators -- he has said that. So he certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I think we just have to take a moment, and pause there, to note how remarkable that is. That someone who served as a Chief of Staff to the former President of the United States, that's a retired Marine General, is saying that the person he served meets the definition of a fascist.
Of course, that comes after we heard that the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley, who was handpicked by Donald Trump, has also called him a fascist, in private.
Now, this is all coming, as Kelly, during these interviews, is also confirming reports that Trump has made admiring statements about Hitler.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: He would, uh, he commented more than once that 'You know, that Hitler did some good things, too.' And of course, if you know history, again I think he's lacking in that, but if you know what history, you know what Hitler was all about, you'd be pretty hard to make an argument that he did anything good.
REPORTER: So what would you -- what would you say when he said to you that Hitler did a lot of good things?
KELLY: Well, I would tell him that, I said, you know, Sir if you, first of all you should never say that, but if you knew what... Hitler was all about from the beginning to the end, uh everything he did was in support of his racist, fascist uh life, you know, philosophy, so that nothing he did, you could argue, was good -- it was certainly not done for the right reason. And uh but he would occasionally say that.
REPORTER: What would he say when you would lay that out to him?
KELLY: Eh he'd just, you know, that would be the end of the conversation usually.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: John Kelly saying that he had to explain to Donald Trump, why Hitler was bad.
Also, in that reporting from The Atlantic that came out, just shortly before this interview with The New York Times and John Kelly, the magazine is quoting Donald Trump, citing two people, who heard him say the quote that I'm about to read to you, as saying, "I need the kind of generals that Hitler had... People who were totally loyal to him, that follow orders."
The Atlantic story also opens up with an anecdote, pertaining to the funeral for the 20-year-old Army Specialist Vanessa Guillen. You'll remember her story. She was murdered in 2020, by a fellow soldier, at Fort Hood.
At the time when that happened, I was covering the White House. I remember this moment. Trump invited the Guillen family into the White House, and he publicly offered to help with her funeral cost.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: When would you like to have the funeral? When?
MAYRA GUILLEN, VANESSA GUILLEN'S SISTER: As soon as possible.
[21:05:00]
TRUMP: As soon as possible. I agree. As soon as possible with the funeral. We'll make sure -- we'll make sure that happens. OK, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
TRUMP: Where will you have the funeral? Do you know?
M. GUILLEN: Houston
TRUMP: In Houston?
M. GUILLEN: Yes.
TRUMP: And if I can help you out with the funeral, I'll help you.
GUADALUPE GUILLEN, VANESSA GUILLEN'S SISTER: Thank you.
TRUMP: I'll help you out. Financially, I'll help you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
NATALIE KHAWAM, ATTORNEY AT LAW: I think the military will be paying -- taking care of it.
TRUMP: Good. They'll do a military. That's good. If you need help, I'll help you out.
KHAWAM: Thank you, President.
TRUMP: OK? If they need something, I'll -- we'll take care -- we'll make sure she is very respected.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: It was a touching moment with her family in the Oval Office.
But a few months after that, The Atlantic says that Trump reportedly asked Pentagon officials, in that same office, a few months later, quote, "'Did they bill us for the funeral? What did it cost?'... an aide answered:" according to The Atlantic, "'Yes, we received a bill; the funeral cost was $60,000.' Trump became angry," according to The Atlantic, and was then quoted as saying, "'It doesn't cost 60,000 bucks to bury" an effing "Mexican.'"
Of course, Guillen was a Mexican-American soldier.
The Atlantic says that Donald Trump then "Turned to his Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, and issued" this order. "'Don't pay it.'"
My lead source tonight is Jeffrey Goldberg, the Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic, who spoke with John Kelly, in one of these very rare interviews.
And Jeffrey, I should note, there's a lot of denials coming out of the Trump campaign, about those stories, about other parts of your reporting. I do want to get to those in a moment. We'll talk about those.
But just on John Kelly speaking out. General Kelly, hearing from him, obviously, as you know, is very rare, to you, and to The Times. What do you make of what he had to say to you?
JEFFREY GOLDBERG, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE ATLANTIC: Well, he -- we talked about the Hitler issue, most of all, because I've been very interested in Donald Trump's belief system as it pertains to authoritarian leaders. We've never had a President of the United States or a major party candidate, I believe, who has expressed such admiration for the leadership style of Adolf Hitler.
And I think among the many things that John Kelly was shocked at, when he worked in the White House, I think this is probably the most shocking for him, the idea that Donald Trump would regularly tell him and others how much he admired Hitler.
And very specifically, John Kelly heard Donald Trump say repeatedly, and others have heard him say, that he admired aspects of Hitler's reign, and that he particularly admired the way that German generals were obedient to him.
Remember, Donald Trump, throughout his presidency, was frustrated by the generals, or My generals, as he called them, both people in the Pentagon and both people who were retired, who worked in the White House, because they wouldn't sort of mindlessly listen to him or follow his orders. That's not the way it works in a democracy, obviously, when there's an order that is illegal or immoral.
And he said to John Kelly, Look, I want generals who are obedient, like the German generals. And Kelly would push back, as you showed. And Kelly would actually push back and say, You know, Hitler's generals spent a lot of time trying to kill him. COLLINS: Yes.
GOLDBERG: And Donald Trump would say, No, no, no, no, that's not true.
I mean, we all know it's true. It's in the -- it's in the history of Hitler's rule. There were constant attempts, on Hitler's life by generals and other officers. There's even a Tom Cruise movie about it, in case you don't read books.
And so, this was -- this was, I think, among the things that shocked Kelly and other officials the most, because it's very un-American, obviously, to express -- to express admiration for the leadership style of a -- of a -- the world's foremost fascist.
COLLINS: Well, and just the idea of in your reporting, where John Kelly is having to, like, explain it to Trump--
GOLDBERG: Yes.
COLLINS: --and to say that. Of course, Trump famously quoted as saying he knows more than his generals did.
And there's part of General Kelly talking about this, about the comments that we've heard from Donald Trump, lately. This is not just something that happened in term one of Donald Trump. We're now hearing him talking about using the U.S. military to go after what he refers to his enemies from within. I mean, he's name-dropped Democrats, when he's had those conversations.
There's part of this interview with General Kelly with The New York Times, about why he's speaking out now. I just want people to listen to what he said to The New York Times about this.
[21:10:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Unless you're someone like me or Mattis or, you know, people like that that -- that retired from the military, or left the military like Mark Esper or Mike Pompeo, and then go into the political job, whether it's elected or assigned by the White House -- it's a little bit different because you're then involved in it.
But for the most part, you just, and that's why I'm so hesitant to talk, certainly never to tell or recommend to an American who they should vote for, because now that I'm out of the political job, I'm back to being pretty much a retired -- retired military officer who should not get too involved in this kind of thing.
Yes, I mean, I -- until the former President started talking about this -- and this goes back to my -- when I was in the White House, and for that matter DHS -- I was -- you know, originally the conversation would be, you know, Mr. President that's outside your authority, or you know that's -- you know that's a routine use, you really don't want to do that inside the United States. But now that he's talking about it as 'I'm going to do it' is, is -- and again, it's disturbing. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Jeffrey, did that have a role in why John Kelly went on the record, with you, about the military, and Trump's thoughts on how it should work for him?
GOLDBERG: I think John Kelly has been concerned about this for a long time.
We're obviously closer to the election. And I think a lot of people, in John Kelly's position, there are a lot of generals, who are discussed in my story, a lot of them are torn because, on the one hand, it's a very, very strong tradition in the U.S. military to stay apolitical, to not be involved in politics and not endorsed. One of the reasons the military is so highly respected in America compared to other institutions is because of this.
On the other hand, I think generals, like -- former generals like Kelly, Milley, Mattis, and there's a whole bunch of others, who have seen him up close, who have seen Trump up close, have spotted real authoritarian tendencies and a real desire.
I mean, you remember, in 2020, and the George Floyd disturbances, Donald Trump said to the Defense Secretary at the time, Mark Esper, Why can't you just shoot these demonstrators? Why can't you just shoot them in the legs?
He has expressed a desire, over and over again, to various officials, that U.S. troops be used to suppress Americans demonstrating against policies that that he happens to support.
COLLINS: Yes.
GOLDBERG: So, I would say that people like John Kelly have put -- are in a tough spot. They don't want to politicize entirely. But they're also, I mean, to put it plainly, I think they're scared. I think they're scared of what a second Donald Trump term would look like, because they saw the first.
COLLINS: Yes, the people who saw it firsthand.
GOLDBERG: Yes.
COLLINS: And the other people who saw it firsthand, and this is the other concern we've heard from, from some of these people, is they're worried about who would staff a second Trump term.
GOLDBERG: Right.
COLLINS: And when you -- the disturbing story that you open up with, about Vanessa Guillen, and what her family has gone through.
I should note, Mark Meadows, who was there that you report, was given this order, Don't pay it. He claims that's not true. He said in a statement tonight that Trump was nothing but kind, gracious and wanted to make sure they did right by her family. Kash Patel, who was also there, said, Of course, President Trump didn't say that. He ensured that this victim received full military honors.
Her sister tweeted at you saying that she felt her sister's death was being exploited.
Just given what you heard from your sources, what do you make of those denials?
GOLDBERG: I don't make much of them at all. The sister wasn't in the meeting. The lawyer for the family wasn't in the meeting. Mark Meadows was in the meeting. Kash Patel was in the meeting. A whole bunch of other senior officials were in the meeting.
I have sources, who are sitting in that meeting. I have contemporaneous notes, taken by participants in that meeting, that describe exactly what I described in the story.
We've seen this pattern again and again and again. They deny, deny, deny, and then it comes out as true. This is the same thing that happened with the previous iteration of this, and John Kelly confirmed this to both The New York Times, and to me today.
The quote-unquote, suckers and losers issue, Donald Trump calling veterans and the war-dead, suckers and losers. They denied and denied and denied. And we have multiple witnesses.
[21:15:00]
John Kelly told me on the record that he and many other people in the White House heard Donald Trump constantly refer to the war-dead, American war-dead, as suckers and losers. We know that he believes that people who serve the country are losers and suckers. He said it multiple ways, multiple times.
And this, of course all starts with his putting down, his denigration of John McCain and George H.W. Bush, both Navy pilots, who were shot down in enemy action, and Donald Trump putting down their experiences constantly. He's done that on the record.
But these other -- these other issues, obviously, these are things that he said as part of his regular discourse. So, it's not surprising--
COLLINS: Yes.
GOLDBERG: --that Mark Meadows is going to deny it. But the denial doesn't hold weight. I have contemporaneous sources, contemporaneous notes from that meeting. He said it.
COLLINS: Yes.
GOLDBERG: It also tracks with everything that we know about the way he speaks.
COLLINS: Well, that's an important note. You cite two people, who were in the room, in contemporaneous notes for that story from Trump.
Jeffrey Goldberg, it's a remarkable story. Everyone should read it. Thank you for joining me, tonight.
And as we are digging through these comments, from John Kelly, not just to Jeffrey Goldberg, but also to Michael Schmidt of The New York Times. We're going to speak to Maggie Haberman of The New York Times, and Trump's former National Security Adviser, Ambassador John Bolton, ahead, after a quick break.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back with our breaking news tonight. As Donald Trump's former Chief of Staff, his longest serving Chief of Staff, General John Kelly, is now going on the record, two weeks before the election, to say that Trump meets the definition of a fascist, and said nice things about Hitler.
Trump's own words in the run-up to this election proved to be a deciding factor when General Kelly weighed speaking out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: And I think this issue of using the military on -- to go after American citizens is one of those things I think is a very, very bad thing -- even to say it for political purposes to get elected -- I think it's a very, very bad thing, let alone actually doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I want to bring in an inside source now. Ambassador John Bolton served alongside Donald Trump, as his National Security Adviser.
Ambassador Bolton, when you hear John Kelly say that Donald Trump meets the definition of a fascist, do you agree with that?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, I think it's extremely important that John has gone public, to the extent he has, in The Atlantic, and The New York Times, just a couple weeks before the election.
Because even though some of the things in these articles have been reported publicly before, to have them all in one place, in effect, two places, I guess, and from John directly, I think, is something the American people should listen to.
I think it's a mistake to get into a controversy over whether Trump meets the definition of fascist or not. I think his behavior alone is troubling enough.
To be a fascist, you have to have a philosophy. Trump is not capable of that. Adolf Hitler wrote a profoundly troubling book called Mein Kampf -- My Struggle. Donald Trump couldn't even read his way all the way through that book, let alone write something like it. I'm not trying to understate the dangers of a Trump presidency. I think it's important to focus on the dangers themselves.
And I'll just quickly give you two other characterizations of Donald Trump that I think may be more resonant.
The first is Rex Tillerson, his first Secretary of State, has the iconic description of Donald Trump. Takes two words. And that's that he's an effing moron.
The second is Charles Krauthammer, one of the most astute analysts of contemporary America. Tragic loss to the country that he died. But he once said to me, and I know he said this publicly, You know, I estimated Trump wrong by about 10 years. Originally, I thought he was an 11-year-old, but I realized I was 10 years off. He's a 1-year-old.
1-year-olds view the entire world, every sensation that comes at them through the prism of, Does this benefit me? And that is a good description of Donald Trump. And it doesn't mean that 1-year-olds are all fascist. It means that's Donald Trump's mental acuity.
COLLINS: You and I have talked a lot about Trump's view of the Constitution. And General Kelly had something interesting to say about that in his interview with The Times. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOLTON: He's certainly the only president that has all but rejected what America is all about, and what makes America America, in terms of our Constitution, in terms of us -- our values, you know, the way we look at everything, to include family and government and -- he's certainly the only president that I know of, that was certainly in my -- certainly in my lifetime, that was like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, to hear John Kelly saying that, that he's certainly the only president that has all but rejected what America is about.
Ambassador Bolton, you have said publicly here, you're not voting for Donald Trump, but you're also not voting for Vice President Harris, when it comes to this decision.
What about people, who are sitting at home, listening to John Kelly call -- say that Trump meets the definition of a fascist, that he said nice things about Hitler, the reporting that he didn't want to pay for a Mexican-American soldier's funeral because it cost too much, which the Trump campaign denies.
But people who sit there and say, Well, that seems to be maybe an obvious choice based on what we're hearing.
[21:25:00]
BOLTON: Yes, well, let me say, first, because the Trump campaign has attacked John's credibility. In any comparison of what John Kelly might say versus what Donald Trump might say about a particular event, or what these munchkins on the Trump campaign are saying about John Kelly. You can take what John says to the bank.
I am absolutely convinced. I didn't hear many, probably most of these statements myself. But if John says that Donald Trump said them, I believe it implicitly.
I think it's -- certainly, this recitation of what he's done should be compelling to people not to vote for Trump. Trump said, after leaving office, said it publicly, he would suspend the Constitution or terminate it because of the unfairness, the effort to steal the 2020 election. That statement alone, if he said nothing else, if he had never mentioned the words, Adolf Hitler, that alone is disqualifying, in my point of view.
So, if people are troubled? And many Republicans are. They don't like Donald Trump at all. I don't like the media commentators, who say the entire Republican Party belongs to Donald Trump now. I know plenty of Republicans that will vote for him, only with gritted teeth, because they fear and they worry about Kamala Harris.
I think the answer is, don't vote for either one of them, but don't give your vote to Donald Trump.
COLLINS: But -- so when Mark Meadows, who was also Trump's later Chief of Staff, when he says that this isn't true, you don't believe that denial?
BOLTON: I do not believe that denial. I believe the story that appeared in The Atlantic. It sounds like Trump. I haven't -- and every -- I didn't hear him say those precise words. He is perfectly capable of it. He cares only about himself.
And, I think, from a utilitarian political point of view, if this just gets into another episode of using terms about Donald Trump? That has failed, politically.
I'm leaving the substance aside. I'm just making a political argument. He's an existential threat to democracy. People have been screaming about that for a long time. The shrink language that he's a narcissistic sociopath, they've used that for a long time. Doesn't work.
Talk about how Trump, in the White House again, for a second term, will harm American national interest, domestically and internationally. You don't need the characterizations. You need to make this real for the voters. And it's, we've got two weeks left for people to make up their minds.
COLLINS: Yes, and two weeks out from the election, hearing from him is certainly something.
Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for that.
My next source on this breaking news was the first to report, actually, in her book, "Confidence Man," that General Kelly had called Trump a fascist in private.
CNN Political Analyst, and New York Times Senior Political Correspondent, Maggie Haberman is here.
I mean, Maggie, what do you, as someone who reported on the Trump White House, make of? John Kelly speaking out on the record is notable.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, look, it's a significant moment.
He's a -- he's a former general, and he served in that White House, and he cares deeply about military service, and about what the structure of power systems are, in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world. And so, for him to publicly say that Trump meets the definition of a fascist is a significant moment.
And it's not a surprise. As you noted, I reported that he had said this to people, privately. He made no secret to a number of people that he thought Trump was clearly not fit, in many ways, for office. I don't know how many people this is going to move.
What I would say is that you don't really need to fix a label to it. You can have the magic of sight and sound, about what Donald Trump has been saying and telling voters that he will do in office. And he will move toward a massive expansion of power. He has talked about using the military for domestic purposes. He has talked about the enemy within, repeatedly.
These are not new expressions of force for him. He, going back to the late 1980s, praised the Chinese crackdown, the government crackdown on protesters in Tiananmen Square, which was lethal, and he described that as showing the quote-unquote, power of strength. So, no one should be especially surprised.
COLLINS: Yes. And just on the military aspect of this, for people who don't know, I mean, General Kelly's son was killed, serving. He's buried in Section 60.
HABERMAN: That's right.
COLLINS: At Arlington National Cemetery. So, I mean, his experience with this is not just that he served, also his son served as well.
HABERMAN: That's right.
COLLINS: What I was struck by is what General Kelly told Mike Schmidt, at The New York Times, was that -- and it just reminded me of your book, and about how Donald Trump came to be Donald Trump. That he views the military like he did his business. That people are there to do his bidding. That everyone works for him.
And even General Kelly, in addition to explaining why Hitler was bad to Trump, was saying, My loyalty is not to you directly. It's to the Constitution. It's to the office. HABERMAN: And that comports with every portrait that we have seen of Trump, again, heard about privately from a number of former aides, and publicly.
[21:30:00]
He referred to the generals, as My generals, which is not a term we are used to hearing U.S. presidents use, at least in that way. He wanted people to pledge loyalty to him personally. James Comey wrote about this, in memos, memorialized his conversations with Donald Trump.
Trump was like this, as a businessman. Trump has been like this for years. He is controlling about what gets written about him, or tries to be. He is incredibly disturbed by anything that he considers to be significantly critical or, even in some cases, remotely critical of him.
I mean, this is just a different kind of leadership than we have seen. And he does look at everything as sort of flat and the same. It's almost like he is context-less. He goes from his business into government, and thinks they all function the same way.
COLLINS: Four years ago, I think even if this came out before the 2020 election, it would have kind of been a five-alarm fire inside the Trump world. I do -- I do wonder, if this still resonant -- if there even -- I mean, there's a slew of denials from Kash Patel and Mark Meadows, campaign aides in here.
But is this a kind of thing that -- you know, a normal campaign would freak out over this. How does this happen inside and unfold inside the Trump campaign in 2024?
HABERMAN: They're certainly not happy about it.
But the way that they look at it, which is actually not entirely dissimilar than how Democrats look at it, is new information is what matters. New information breaking through about either candidate is what matters.
And to the point that Ambassador Bolton made, a lot of people have heard a lot of this, over a period of time, from various news sources. So, I don't know how surprised they are.
Would they prefer not to be dealing with this in razor-close elections, in multiple battlegrounds, when military figures still poll better -- and the military in general, polls better as an institution than most other U.S. institutions? Sure, they would rather not be dealing with this. But I don't think it reaches the same level of freak-out you might have seen four years ago now.
COLLINS: But it comes as you're reporting that Trump has been in touch with Kurt Olsen, an attorney who tried to help him overturn the 2020 election.
HABERMAN: Right. COLLINS: You're reporting tonight that, as we're learning all this, all these warnings from John Kelly--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --the blinking red lights. That he's been in touch with that attorney again.
HABERMAN: So Jonathan Swan and Nick Corasaniti, and I reported that Trump has talked multiple times, in recent weeks, with Kurt Olsen, who is this Washington lawyer, who was part of Trump's efforts to overturn his election loss in 2020. Trump has been back in touch with him, as Olsen has been filing pre-litigation letters in Arizona related to the voting machines.
And remember, there's been all this controversy around voting machines. Dominion Systems ended up with a massive, nearly $800 million defamation settlement with Fox News, because of false claims that were made.
And Trump is gearing up to use some similar arguments, it seems. We'll see what he actually says himself. But he has generally suggested he is fine with what Olsen is doing.
COLLINS: Yes. Clip and save that for in two weeks from now.
Maggie Haberman, great reporting as always. Thank you.
HABERMAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to go to the campaign trail, on the other side for the Harris campaign, because The Real Slim Shady was standing up next to Vice President Harris, and alongside President Obama, tonight, in Detroit. We'll take you there to that event next.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Moments ago, in battleground Michigan, The Real Slim Shady made a real big endorsement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMINEM, AMERICAN RAPPER AND SONGWRITER: People shouldn't be afraid to express their opinions. And I don't think anyone wants an America where people are worried about retribution, of what people would do if you make your opinion known.
(CHEERING)
EMINEM: I think Vice President Harris supports a future for this country, where these freedoms, and many others, will be protected and upheld.
(CHEERING) (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That is Eminem out on the campaign trail for Vice President Harris, introducing former President Obama on that stage in Detroit. And of course, he says, you only have one shot.
My political sources are here.
Karen Finney--
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISER, HILLARY CLINTON'S 2016 CAMPAIGN: Yes.
COLLINS: --is former senior adviser to Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign. But more importantly, a huge Eminem fan.
And Shermichael Singleton, Republican strategist also here.
Thanks for joining us, and not Eminem.
FINNEY: Absolutely. You know, I love him.
COLLINS: Sorry we did take you away from him.
FINNEY: But I'm here with you, Kaitlan. I was so excited to see that he was going to be on the campaign trail.
COLLINS: OK. So, that moment happened out on the campaign trail. Obviously, there's been a lot of celebrity endorsements that the Harris campaign has been touting.
But there was a moment that is getting a lot of attention, where President Biden was out on the campaign trail, in New Hampshire, today. He has been very judicious, in what he has said about Donald Trump's legal troubles, very careful about separation from the DOJ and from the White House.
But listen to what he said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I know this sounds bizarre. It sounds like if I said this five years ago, you'd lock me up. We got to lock him up.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
BIDEN: Politically lock him up.
(APPLAUSE)
BIDEN: Lock him out. That's what we have to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: He caught himself, and he said--
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: --politically.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: But I'm already seeing that all over, from Republicans and whatnot, who are saying, I can feel it being entered into the court filings now.
FINNEY: Oh, of course. Of course.
COLLINS: But what did you make of that moment?
FINNEY: The hypocrisy of the Republican Party is on display again for all -- I mean, Donald Trump stood on a stage and talked about Arnold Palmer's genitals. So let's -- if we're going to say that, versus Joe Biden slipping up? Come on. Stop.
This is the moment where we can't get distracted from what this election is really about. This is about two very different visions of this country. Lots of different crazy things are going to be said. As you point out, he corrected himself.
But this is the moment, where they're going to make a big deal about it. And the Dems will make a big deal about some crazy thing, because Trump will keep saying crazy things, by the way, and it will get more violent and dangerous, I think, the rhetoric.
And again, I think it is for us to keep voters focused on the election, on their lives, and what this election means to them, and not get too distracted by all this other nonsense going on.
[21:40:00]
COLLINS: Well, and the Harris campaign, every time the Lock him up chants break out at her rally, she says, Let the courts handle that, let's handle the ballot box.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: She was asked in an interview with NBC News tonight, if she would consider pardoning Donald Trump if she's elected, Shermichael.
This is what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HALLIE JACKSON, ANCHOR, SUNDAY NIGHTLY NEWS, NBC NEWS: Would you consider if you win, and he's convicted, a pardon for former President Trump?
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm not going to get into those hypotheticals. I'm focused on the next 14 days.
JACKSON: But do you believe, is there any part of you that subscribes to the argument that has been made in the past that a pardon could help bring America together, could help you unify the country and move them, move on.
HARRIS: Let me tell you what's going to help us move on. I get elected President of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, she wasn't taking -- compared to everyone upset about what Biden said today. She was not going there at all on that front.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, it's premature. She has no clue if she's going to win this election or not.
If I were advising her, and I'm imagining a question like that would possibly come up, because of the President's statements, I would probably say, Don't answer that question. Focus on the election. Talk around it. I think she handled herself fairly well there.
If she wins, the country is going to be divided. I think we have to figure out what happens legally for the former President. Is there the potential to bring the country together by pardoning him? I would probably say yes.
But it's way too early to be asking the Vice President that question. There's just no way for her to know yet, without being able to determine if she wins, one, and then, two, looking at whatever evidence that may give her that ultimate decision to say, Let's do a pardon.
COLLINS: Well, and we're two weeks away today from the election.
Tomorrow night, she's doing a Town Hall with Anderson Cooper, here on CNN, in this hour. Everyone should watch that.
What do you think she needs to accomplish, though, in that? Because we have seen just how close this race is.
FINNEY: Yes, I actually spent Sunday, knocking on doors, talking to voters in a county in Pennsylvania, where we talked to Republicans, Independents and Democrats, genuine people who are already know how they're going to vote, people who are undecided, and people who had questions.
I think she's got to keep talking about herself, her record, her accomplishments, the contrast between herself and Donald Trump, and the future that she envisions for this country.
I'll tell you, one of the most interesting things, people did say, they're worried that they're hearing him talk so much about revenge. One woman said, Look, I voted for him before, but I don't hear him talking about me. I hear him talking about how he's angry, and he is, you know, he wants revenge. So that is definitely on people's minds.
COLLINS: Yes, well, and she's going to be asked about policy, obviously, and differences there. She was asked in the NBC interview, today, about transgender-affirming care, where she stands on whether or not that should be provided, who should be able to have access to that?
I mean, what will you be watching for, as a Republican, tomorrow night?
SINGLETON: I mean, look, I think the big thing for the Vice President is being able to sell why voters should vote for her, and not so much her rhetoric about Donald Trump being bad for the country. I don't think that's a motivating enough factor to get people to vote for her. She needs to convince them, and she hasn't done that yet.
COLLINS: We'll be watching.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Karen Finney. Shermichael Singleton.
Sorry that Eminem wasn't here. We'll try to bring him next time.
FINNEY: It's OK. It's OK.
COLLINS: Up next. It is time for Rudy Giuliani to pay the piper. He has to give up his ritzy Manhattan penthouse, his Mercedes-Benz, and his luxury watches that he got from European presidents, all to the election workers that he defamed. My next source is their attorney.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Rudy Giuliani is being forced to turn over his Manhattan penthouse to the Georgia election workers that he defamed. But that's not all that Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss are going to receive from him.
A federal judge has just ordered the former New York City Mayor to turn over all of his valuable possessions to them. That includes a Mercedes-Benz that was once owned by the Hollywood icon Lauren Bacall, a collection of luxury watches, including some that were given to him by the French president, a signed Joe DiMaggio jersey, furniture, jewelry, even his television.
All of that just to cover part of the $150 million in damages that Rudy Giuliani owes Freeman and Moss after he falsely accused them of tampering with ballots.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: It's a tape earlier in the day of Ruby Freeman and Shaye Freeman Moss, and one other gentleman quite obviously surreptitiously, passing around USB ports as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine.
It's obvious to anyone who's a criminal investigator or prosecutor, they are engaged in surreptitious, illegal activity, again, that day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Wasn't true.
My source tonight is Aaron Nathan, attorney for Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss.
Thank you for being here.
So Rudy Giuliani has a week to turn all of this over. How does that work? Where does that go next?
AARON NATHAN, ATTORNEY FOR RUBY FREEMAN & SHAYE MOSS: That's right. He's got a week to turn over the property that the judge ordered, into Ruby and Shaye's hands.
They've been appointed as receivers. They're going to have the power to take that property, sell it, maximize its value, and try to receive from the proceeds, some measure of compensation for the injuries that Rudy inflicted on them.
COLLINS: So we know what the apartment looks like, because it was listed on realtor.com. I believe we have photos of the apartment. It's on the Upper East Side, close to the Central Park. It has wood-burning fireplace. You can see all the bells and whistles.
So they can, once that's turned over to them, they can just, they can sell this? They could keep it? They can do whatever they want with it?
NATHAN: That's right. Their role, as receivers, in this situation is going to be to sell that apartment, get as much money for it as they can, and take that first step towards satisfying the judgment.
It's just a step. But today is still a big day. I mean, Rudy Giuliani put Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss through hell. He's made them fight for every inch of Justice. Today is a big step in that direction.
COLLINS: I saw Rudy Giuliani at the Republican Convention back over the summer, in July. And I asked him, in hindsight, now that you had been found for liable for defaming them, owes them all this money, I asked if he regrets what he said about them.
This is what he told me.
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you have any regrets about how you treated Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, now that it has cost you so much financially and now your bankruptcy court being dismissed? GIULIANI: I have no regrets at all. I'm on the side of justice, right and truth. That court is a disgrace. It will go down in history as another -- as a court that participated in another internment, like the Japanese internment during the Second War.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, the idea, though, that he has expressed no remorse. What do your clients make of that?
NATHAN: Well, look, I think what today shows is that regrets are not -- there are consequences for actions like what Giuliani did to my clients.
Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss are two of the strongest people that I've ever had the pleasure to work with. It's hard to be a plaintiff. It takes a lot of guts to stick your neck out and ask for justice. But they have stuck with it and demanded justice from Giuliani, and they're going to keep doing that until they receive it.
COLLINS: Aaron Nathan, thank you. And keep us updated on that.
NATHAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: I know there's another hearing, of course, on Monday, about his Florida condo, his Super Bowl rings as well.
Up next. We're going to take you back to the 2024 campaign trail. What we're hearing from Governor Tim Walz. No more Minnesota Nice. He's going after Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, and also one of Trump's most prominent backers.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Kamala Harris' running mate, Governor Tim Walz, going after one of Donald Trump's most prominent backers in the 2024 race, the world's richest man, Elon Musk. He's been pouring an eye- popping amount of money to help elect the former President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm going to talk about his running mate.
(BOOING)
WALZ: His running mate, Elon Musk.
Look, Elon's on that stage, jumping around, skipping like a dipshit.
That guy is literally the richest man in the world, spending millions of dollars to help Donald Trump buy an election.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: My source tonight is CNN's Donie O'Sullivan, who went to Elon Musk's town halls that he held over the weekend. He's been on the campaign trail.
I'm going to guess that Governor Walz does not like Elon Musk very much.
But Donie, on Elon being so involved in the campaign trail. Obviously, he supports Trump. He's been spending a ton of money on him. But he's now going as far to offer million-dollar giveaways to people who are registering to vote.
Republican officials, some of them, there's a group of about a 11 that are asking the Justice Department, to investigate him over this, does it violate campaign finance laws or federal election law.
What's your sense of whether or not that deters him at all, or how he's feeling about this?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it doesn't phase him one bit, I get the sense.
I mean, one, we were there actually at his town hall, in a church, on Harrisburg -- in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, on Saturday night, where he gave out that first million-dollar check.
America PAC, the Pac that Elon Musk is behind, they changed the wording slightly, the day after the result, as there was a lot of talk of legal scrutiny of this. So rather than saying, We are awarding this a winner, a million dollars. They are now hiring a spokesperson per day, and paying them a million dollars. So, there's some sign of a change there, clearly. Maybe they see some legal loophole there.
But aside from the million dollars, they're also paying people. They're paying people $47 in swing -- in battleground states to register or refer people to sign up to America PAC, this petition, and really just highlighting the value that's in Pennsylvania, and how important they view Pennsylvania.
A $100 to Pennsylvania voters to sign this petition. And it's not just a petition, right? Because what you're doing is they're paying you a $100, and they're getting all your data, your personal information, and seeing that you're a registered voter, and then can easily target you with advertising, whether it's online, offline, or whatever else.
COLLINS: Which is priceless--
O'SULLIVAN: Exactly.
COLLINS: --to a campaign.
What are these town halls like with Elon Musk?
O'SULLIVAN: Surreal, really surreal. I mean, he starts -- you know, we spoke to a lot of people online, who are in line for the event. I've been to a lot of Trump rallies, as of you. This felt like half Trump rally, half Comic Con. There was a lot of kind of space guys. There are guys who wanted to talk Star Trek and the Star Wars. Most of whom were on the Trump train, some of whom had just gone on the Trump train because of Musk.
But they go on for hours, right? I think Saturday night, it went on for two and a half hours or so. He does about 10 minutes at the top, where he speaks, sometimes riffs, sometimes tries to do like a stand- up routine, and then just takes questions from the audience for two, three hours.
COLLINS: So, it's like a town hall, just him?
O'SULLIVAN: That's--
COLLINS: Are they questions about Trump? Are they about politics?
O'SULLIVAN: It's an--
COLLINS: Are they about SpaceX?
O'SULLIVAN: It's really a mix of everything. It is guys, you know, it is men, grown men, fawning over him, and asking them to sign their model rockets. And then questions to politics. But mixed into all -- I mean, it's fascinating to listen to, but then mixed into all of it is these election conspiracy theories, right? And he's just pushing stuff out there that, frankly, he should -- he should know better.
COLLINS: He's pushing them on stage?
O'SULLIVAN: Absolutely, yes.
COLLINS: Not just on Twitter, online?
O'SULLIVAN: No, no. He's bringing, you know, mention of Dominion voting machines, all this sort of stuff that is just really the dog whistles for election deniers and conspiracy theorists.
And one person we met there, who was a Musk superfan, but was able to acknowledge that you could really see with Musk, that he has gone down this rabbit hole, where he is doing all these incredible, amazing things, sending rockets into the space. That's why the U.S. government is paying his companies billions of dollars to do it.
[22:00:00]
But you can also see that he has been led so far astray, on issues, like these election -- I mean, he's essentially already saying, in one way or another, that something funky went down, in the election, in 2020, and could happen again.
COLLINS: Which, of course, it didn't.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, it did not.
COLLINS: But it is interesting. I mean, John Fetterman, Pennsylvania senator, said he's worried about the impact Musk can have.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
COLLINS: We'll see what it looks like.
Donie O'Sullivan, thanks for going to those town halls for us, as always.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much for joining us, on this very busy hour.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
