Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Hillary Clinton: Trump Is "More Unhinged" Now; Harris, Obama Campaign Together For First Time In Georgia; Trump & Allies Bet Big On Anti-Trans Ads In Closing Pitch. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 24, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --and also new episode of my podcast, All There Is, which is about grief and loss, came out on Wednesday. You can find it online, right now, at CNN.com/allthereisonline, or point your phone right now at the QR code.
There's also a grief community group there. You can chat with others, help you feel less alone in your grief. I hope it helps.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
With just 12 days to go, Hillary Clinton will join me live in moments, on Harris, Trump and this cliffhanger of an election, as Trump just today was still musing about locking her up. Yes, really.
And Barack Obama, tonight, warming up the crowd, as he laced into the former President. The nation's first Black president, campaigning for the first time, alongside the woman, who is now a coin flip away from making history of her own.
And tonight, in Georgia, it's the Boss. Tomorrow, it is Beyonce. All hitting the trail with Vice President Harris deep in the heart of Texas.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
With 12 days to go, the first woman presidential nominee is here, with her take, on where this race stands, right now, and what we might expect between now and Election Day and beyond that. Hillary Clinton will join me live, in just moments.
As it has been a very busy day and night for Trump and Harris, out on the campaign trail, both crisscrossing swing states, including in Georgia.
That's where we saw former President Barack Obama, joining Vice President Harris, in their first appearance together, on the trail, out in suburban Atlanta. It was a star-studded evening, as you could see. It started with the Boss getting on stage as the opening act.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN PERFORMS AT THE STAR-STUDDED GEORGIA RALLY)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In that performance, Bruce Springsteen also openly blasted Donald Trump as a wannabe tyrant.
And after that, there was an unprecedented warning that we got from Donald Trump's predecessor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: Donald Trump's former Chief of Staff said that Trump told him he wanted his generals to be like Hitler's generals.
We do not need four years of a wannabe king, a wannabe dictator, running around, trying to punish his enemies. That's not what you need in your life.
America is ready to turn the page. We are ready for a better story.
(CHEERING)
OBAMA: Georgia, we're ready for a President Kamala Harris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And Vice President Harris followed that, with her own closing message, as she reiterated something you heard from her, last night, during CNN's town hall. Why she thinks Donald Trump is more dangerous than ever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This is not 2016 and it is not 2020. Including because just a few months ago, the United States Supreme Court told the former President that he is effectively immune, no matter what he does in the White House. Now, just imagine Donald Trump with no guardrails.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the former Democratic presidential nominee, former Secretary of State, former Senator from New York, and former first lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton. She is also the Author of the new book, "Something Lost, Something Gained: Reflections on Life, Love, and Liberty."
And Secretary, thank you for being here. I want to talk about your book.
But just given you have such a singular perspective, in this race, you're the only person who knows what it's like to be a woman nominee, facing Donald Trump, I wonder, what should Vice President Harris know that you wish you had known?
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE, 2016 DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE, AUTHOR, "SOMETHING LOST, SOMETHING GAINED": Well, Kaitlan, it's great to be with you tonight.
And I think that she's running her campaign, based on a lot of the lessons that we have learned, over the last eight years. First and foremost, how incredibly dangerous Donald Trump is. That wasn't maybe as clear as it should have been, back in 2016. But it sure is now.
And I think her warnings, the warnings of not just Democrats, like President Obama. But the people who actually observed him, up close, for the four years he was actually in the White House, are warning us with everything they possibly can say. They are telling us, what he threatened to do when he was there before, what they think he would do if he got back again.
[21:05:00]
And I think that as we move toward the election itself, Vice President Harris is doing a really compelling job, of making sure voters understand there is a choice here. And the choice of Vice President Harris is somebody with the character, the values, the temperament, the discipline to be our president. And someone who has proven himself unqualified and unfit for that office.
COLLINS: Yes, and you're referencing what General John Kelly has said, that his former boss meets the definition of a fascist.
And I know you've said before that, that -- recently, you said that Trump uses blatantly fascist rhetoric. Do you agree with John Kelly, with Vice President Harris, that Donald Trump does meet the definition of a fascist?
RODHAM CLINTON: Kaitlan, I do. And it's not only people like former Chief of Staff, Marine General John Kelly, who is telling us this and warning us.
It's people, who have really studied what fascism is and what fascist leadership looks like. People, like Professor Timothy Snyder.
People, like former professor Paxton, who just recently came out and said that he had studied fascism during the war, particularly the Nazis, Vichy France, and he had been reluctant to use the term. But he had concluded, as so many people now are, that, sadly, here in America, the term fits.
And one other thing that you'll see next week, Kaitlan, is Trump actually reenacting the Madison Square Garden rally in 1939. I write about this in my book. President Franklin Roosevelt was appalled that neo-Nazis, fascists, in America, were lining up to essentially pledge their support for the kind of government that they were seeing in Germany. So, I don't think we can ignore it. Now, it may be a leap for some people, and a lot of others may think, I don't want to go there, I don't want to say that. But please, open your eyes to the danger that this man poses to our country, because I think it is clear and present for anybody paying attention.
COLLINS: Yes, you write in your book about Lindbergh, and just how he was viewed in the U.S. as such a hero, and what that would have looked like, had Pearl Harbor not have happened. You're looking back at the history of this country.
But to hear such a significant statement, like that one, from -- you make a good point, not just people who've studied it, but from General Kelly, who worked very closely with Donald Trump. Obviously, General Milley did as well.
But I think when you hear that, and then you look at it from a campaign perspective, there have been people, who have said for years that they do believe Donald Trump has fascist tendencies, or is a fascist, just outright himself. I think the question is, does it reach voters that Harris needs to reach right now. What do you -- how do you see that?
RODHAM CLINTON: I think that's a fair question, Kaitlan, and I can't wholly answer it.
But I think, number one, you have a duty, when you're running for president. I tried to sound the alarm about him, back in 2016. But it was really an uphill climb, because people could not literally imagine that he posed a danger, or that his character was so lacking, when it came to the responsibility of being President. So, I totally understand that. But now, there's just too much evidence about what he wants to do, what he is saying he wants to do.
So, number one, I think that someone running for president, like Vice President Harris, really has a duty to sound the alarm.
And secondly, I think that there are people, who are still paying attention. Maybe they're leaning one way or the other. And they hear John Kelly, or they hear General Milley, or they hear President Obama, or Vice President Harris. And it causes them to think really hard, Why would we take that risk?
And so, I think that, sometimes in politics, you've got to do what is not only right, but important. And it is important to make a case, as well as we can, before this election, about what kind of man this is, and what kind of President he is promising to be.
COLLINS: Yes.
Yes, you just think about the voters that we had, at the town hall, last night. Some of them, you know, one was a widow, and she's worried about paying her taxes, and her bills, and what that's going to look like. And so, you just, you hear that resonating, and breaking through, as she's still undecided.
And so, I just wonder, given your position in 2016, at this point in that race, when you're looking at where we are, 12 days out. Polling averages in 2016 at this time had you on pace for a bigger win than President Obama had had four years before. And of course, you know better than anyone how those next 12 days went.
What do you think Vice President Harris needs to do, in your view, to avoid a repeat?
[21:10:00]
RODHAM CLINTON: Well, first of all, I don't think she has Jim Comey in the wings, waiting to kneecap her. So, that's good, and I'm very grateful for that. But I think she is doing what she needs to do.
And in reporting from today, I think by CNN, a number of the voters, who were at your town hall, have said she convinced them, that she had shown the kind of empathy and concern, about their problems, that she'd come forward with her ideas, her suggested policies. So, I think she's doing what she needs to do.
And from my perspective, that's not only her job. It's the job of all of us, who are supporting her. It's obviously the job of the messaging, the advertising, everything that goes into the final sprint to the election.
Because I think that the information is out there, for voters who are looking for it. You can go to her campaign webpage. You can read about what she wants to do, to lower the cost of housing, how she wants to take on people, who are exploiting pricing of necessary goods, whether it's groceries or anything else. She talks about how she has a plan for long-term care, one of the biggest expenses that many families face.
COLLINS: Yes.
RODHAM CLINTON: So, the policies are there. It's hard, though, as you know, you're a reporter, you know how difficult it is to talk about things like policies. So, often, what comes through are the more challenging and kinds of critics -- criticisms that you make of your opponent. So, I think she's doing both.
COLLINS: Well, on that, I mean, you can have a debate over her proposal, on spending and inflation. And she wants to after price gouging. We've had some Democrats say they don't really think that that's a solution for that. But you're having a policy debate at that point.
And I wonder, from your view, as someone who put out a lot of policy, in 2016, and talked a lot about policy, do you think that she faces a double standard, in the sense of people watched the town hall, last night. Voters say, Well, actually, I do want specifics on the economy or on immigration. Maybe she should have said they should have done something else differently sooner.
But Donald Trump's not there, because he didn't agree to do a town hall.
Do you see it as a double standard--
RODHAM CLINTON: Right.
COLLINS: --in this race?
RODHAM CLINTON: I really do, Kaitlan. And I see it as a double standard. Thankfully, we've made progress, when it comes to women in politics, and certainly seeking the highest office in the land. And I'm very happy that we can say that. But there still is a double standard.
And I think there's also a double standard, because it still is very difficult to cover Donald Trump. You know, he is incoherent half the time. Then he'll come out with something that is about how dangerous migrants are, and that cuts through. And then, he goes back to talking about Hannibal Lecter or whatever is on his mind. And it's really hard to cover that.
And so, I think there is almost a default in the press, where people go back and say, OK, well, at least Harris is trying to answer questions, and she is putting out real policy. So, let's go pile on her, and make sure we know exactly what she's talking about.
Because there is no comparison. She has specific policies.
Now, he tries to avoid owning Project 2025, which is very specific and very scary. And I think it's rare that the press really goes after him on that, and says, OK, look at what they want to do, get rid of the Weather Service, for heaven sakes. How are we going to know what we're doing every day? I mean, it's so bizarre. And yet, he's hardly ever held to account for it.
And so, I do think there's a double standard. I think she understands that. She's been underestimated her entire political career. She gets up every day, she puts on those high heels, she goes out there, she makes her case.
And I think that there's so much more energy, in her campaign, than on the other side. There is so much more enthusiasm. We see it not just in the rallies. But they got a great ground game. I'm getting incredible reporting, from the battleground states, about how effective that is. So, she knows there's a double standard. We all know, if you're paying attention. And she's just going to keep powering through it.
COLLINS: Well and on, I should note, on Project 2025. And we had the guy who wrote Project 2025, here on set, to question him about those policies and what that looks like.
But on something you just said, about Donald Trump. He's calling it the weave. He goes from subject to subject.
I mean, you ran against him. You had multiple debates against him in 2016. Do you think he's the same Donald Trump in 2024 that he was in 2016?
[21:15:00]
RODHAM CLINTON: I don't. I think he's more unhinged, more unstable. I think you see that, all the time, in both his rallies, and his kind of word salad after word salad speeches.
But you also see it in the interviews he does do, which are primarily with friendly outlets, where he can't follow the question, doesn't really answer the question. And then, we certainly saw it, for what, 39 minutes, when he just froze on stage, and just kind of moved to music.
So no, he's not the same person. Part of it is he seems to be totally obsessed by his grievances, his resentments, his getting even with people.
And I think when you are living with that much bitterness, and that kind of mindset? You are not able to communicate effectively, because, literally, you are thinking, all the time, about who said something bad about you, who made kind of a comment that you disagreed with. You can't be president, and have that kind of mindset.
So, I think that if people are paying attention, even if they voted for him before, once or even twice, they have to be honest enough to admit, he is not performing anywhere near how he was, which I think makes him even more dangerous and, frankly, more manipulable, by people around him.
And let's be honest, his foreign adversaries of our country, who are watching what is a deteriorating performance with, I think, a certain amount of satisfaction. They're looking forward if he were to end up as President, to continue to flatter and manipulate him, into doing what they want him to do. You know, I--
COLLINS: So--
RODHAM CLINTON: --I tried to, in the book, talk about what kind of presidency, what kind of country would we have, if he were to end up there? And it's a very -- it's a very scary thought.
COLLINS: Yes, you kind of take several pages to lay out what that scenario would look like.
But on what you said that he is different, and imagining people supporting him. I mean, he is neck and neck with Harris, and he has actually gained support, when you look at the numbers, especially with key groups, like Black men. That is something that the Harris campaign has been working on. Why do you think he's gaining support, then?
RODHAM CLINTON: Well, I think it's one of the real questions of not just the campaign, but of our country, right now, that really, any person that is thinking hard about their own position in the economy, their own future would think that he offers a better deal.
Some people support him because they like what he says. They like his belligerent attitude. They like his insulting. They may even occasionally believe some of his versions of alternative reality. Other people, I think, find him to be a strongman, and that's very attractive to certain voters. They may not even agree with what he's saying, but they think that he's strong, and they find that appealing.
I can't psychoanalyze the electorate, for sure. But there are a lot of reasons why people would be for him that, to me, really don't add up.
Because for anybody, who thinks that he would only go after somebody, unlike them, that he would only support laws and changes that would hurt somebody else? I don't think they understand, that with an authoritarian personality in power, there is no safe haven.
There's always a chance, he's impulsive, he's emotional, I think he is unstable, that he will turn on anyone, any individual, any group, for any perceived disloyalty, or comment that he thinks is contrary to himself, or what he is pushing.
So, I think people need to really think hard, because this is -- you know, one thing I know for sure. If you vote for Kamala Harris, you will have the opportunity to disagree with her. You will have the opportunity to vote against her, if she runs again.
With Donald Trump, I'm not so sure about that. Because one of his want-to-be role models, is Orban in Hungary. And Orban did get elected and then proceeded to dismantle the institutions of democracy. So that's what people need to be worried about.
COLLINS: Well, on that note, we have a lot more coming up, Secretary Clinton. Please stay with us.
I do want to get your reaction. We heard from Donald Trump today, bringing you up, on the campaign trail, saying this.
[21:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I could have gotten Hillary Clinton very easily. And when they said, Lock her up, what did I do? I said, Take it easy, just relax.
I could have had her put in jail, and I decided I didn't want to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Donald Trump said today, he would fire Special Counsel Jack Smith within two seconds of taking office. In the same interview, where he couldn't help but go back to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I could have gotten Hillary Clinton very easily. And when they said, Lock her up, what did I do? I said, Take it easy, just relax. I could have had her put in jail, and I decided I didn't want to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And Secretary Clinton is back with me now.
Secretary, I just -- to hear him still saying it, eight years later. What is that like for you?
RODHAM CLINTON: Well, first of all, what he said, no surprise, is not true. There is a lot of reporting, about how he did literally order his attorneys general, I think Sessions, for sure. Barr, after that.
COLLINS: Yes, Jeff Sessions.
[21:25:00]
RODHAM CLINTON: Yes. He told them to investigate me. He told them to go after me. And there was nothing to be found. So, there was no case, and that ended that.
But what's really deeply troubling about what he just said? You're not supposed to be saying that as a president or a presidential candidate. This is what I'm talking about, Kaitlan. I mean, the Justice Department doesn't belong to him.
The president should not be like Richard Nixon, or Donald Trump, ordering the Justice Department to pursue individual Americans for political purposes, or, in Trump's case, individual grievances. So, this just adds to my argument that whether it's me, or literally anybody else, he has no business saying that, he has no right to say that. He should be respecting the rule of law.
And it's equally troubling that he has said he would fire Jack Smith. All those cases against him, which, based on, my assessment, as a recovering lawyer, are really filled with lots of very strong allegations, based on a lot of evidence, that he would get rid of all of that, so that he would be above the law.
So, he can say whatever he wants to, about me, which he will. But that's not really my concern. My concern is what it shows about the kind of President he wants to be for everybody in the country.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, he even went as far today to say that he considers Jack -- that Jack Smith should be considered mentally deranged and he should be thrown out of the country.
And as I was reading your book, you talk about his efforts, to try to get Jeff Sessions, to open investigations into you, and what happened with your emails at the State Department, and all of that.
When you hear that, and you hear what he's saying he'd do back in office, do you have personal concerns about him retaliating against you, if he does win this election?
RODHAM CLINTON: No, because I know I haven't done anything worthy of that.
But I will say that, going after people for partisan, personal, political purposes, is a very difficult experience for somebody. I know that, firsthand. And I know that it can be an expensive proposition, to defend yourself. It can be a very emotionally draining experience.
So, I think the threats he's making, at a whole -- about a whole range of people, should concern anybody.
COLLINS: Yes.
RODHAM CLINTON: And I just have to say, Kaitlan, that, here we are. It's 12 days before the election of the President of the United States of America. And it's absolutely bonkers that we are talking about what he might do, to violate the law, to punish his political opponents. I mean, this is so un-American.
I've been around longer than you have, and I've agreed and disagreed with presidents, Democrats and Republicans, over a lot of decades. And I was on the impeachment inquiry staff that investigated President Nixon. And eventually, he was forced to resign after the evidence came out, because he was misusing, he was abusing the Office of the Presidency.
How can we be back here, even entertaining the idea that someone who, frankly, makes Nixon look as a lesser threat, because of the kinds of things that Trump is saying, and the kind of coziness he exhibits toward people like Putin? How can we even be at a point, where Americans could say, I want more of that?
COLLINS: Well--
RODHAM CLINTON: It's just truly so distressing to me.
COLLINS: On that front. I mean, this, because of comments like that that Trump makes, has put together a very strange coalition behind Vice President Harris. I mean, ranging from Barack Obama on stage. Not surprising, you, obviously.
Dick Cheney, though, is voting for her, someone that you, I would probably--
RODHAM CLINTON: Right.
COLLINS: --feel safe saying, don't have a lot in common with. The two of you have certainly traded barbs, over the years. I mean, you once likened him to Darth Vader.
RODHAM CLINTON: That's true.
COLLINS: What does it say to you that you and Dick Cheney are now voting for the same person for President?
RODHAM CLINTON: Well, it says that we both have the same deep worries about the threats that Trump poses to the Constitution, to the rule of law, to our institutions of government, and how easily influenced he is, by forces, both within the United States and abroad, that want to manipulate the United States government for their own ends.
[21:30:00]
And, as I've said repeatedly, I don't agree with Dick Or Liz Cheney, on most policies. But boy, do I agree with them about their clear-eyed view of this threat.
I think they have the view I do, which is, Let's take a deep breath here. Let's elect the person, who will be a president that we don't have to go to bed every night, worried about what we're going to find in the morning.
Let's get back to arguing about all of the different policies that are the birthright of Americans to argue about, whether it's taxes, or housing, or gun safety, or reproductive rights, or anything else. And let's be sure, then we have another election in four years, where we can battle it out, between people, who are maybe in deep disagreement over policies, but in even deeper agreement about what is best for our country and our democracy.
COLLINS: Yes, a lot at stake here, obviously.
Secretary Clinton, as always, thank you for your time.
Your new book, again, for those who have not read it, "Something Lost, Something Gained: Reflections on Life, Love, and Liberty."
Really appreciate your time tonight, Secretary Clinton, thank you.
Up next. More from that rally that you saw tonight, both Vice President Harris and former President Obama, on stage together, for the first time.
We'll also tell you Donald Trump's closing message, as he's also out on the campaign trail in these final days.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Moments ago, here on THE SOURCE, you just heard former Secretary of State Clinton -- Hillary Clinton, offering her assessment of Donald Trump, given she ran against him in 2016, how he acted then, versus how she's seeing him out on the campaign trail now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODHAM CLINTON: I think he's more unhinged, more unstable. I think you see that, all the time, in both his rallies, and his kind of word salad after word salad speeches.
But you also see it in the interviews he does do, which are primarily with friendly outlets, where he can't follow the question, doesn't really answer the question. And then, we certainly saw it, for what, 39 minutes, when he just froze on stage, and just kind of moved to music. So no, he's not the same person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are here with me.
David Axelrod, what did you make of that comment there, but also everything that -- Secretary Clinton's assessment of the race as it stands right now?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO OBAMA: I think that moving on stage, she called dancing. So we should make that clear.
But listen, I think what wasn't in that bite was, I think part of what she said after, is the thing that I think resonates the most with me, that concerns me, which is how manipulable -- say the word, will you?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL: Manipulatable.
AXELROD: Manipulatable, OK. But how he can be manipulatable and--
JENNINGS: I've been reduced to David Axelrod's thesaurus.
AXELROD: You know? And I thought about that during the debate with Kamala Harris, how -- how he was -- she was -- she was Pavlov, and he was the dog, and he just responded to all of these things.
And I'm thinking, if I'm Vladimir Putin, and I'm watching this, the old security apparatchik, what am I thinking? And then you read that he's talked to Putin seven times since he left the White House. These are concerning things.
Now, will they decide the election? Is that what the average American is going to be thinking about, when they vote? Probably not. And I've said many times, if you're worried about democracy, if you're thinking about democracy, and talking about it over the kitchen table? It's probably because you don't have to worry about the cost of food on the table. So, it may not. But I think that is a really significant point that we really haven't talked enough about.
SARAH MATTHEWS, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY UNDER PRES. TRUMP: Something, I think too--
COLLINS: Yes.
MATTHEWS: --that she said that really stuck out to me was when she was asked if he is the same candidate that he was in 2016 and 2020. And she said, No, he's more unhinged, more unstable. And I would agree with that.
And that's been my warning to Republican voters out there. Look, this isn't the same man that I worked for. I think that something in him broke, after the 2020 election. He was unable to accept that loss, and he started to unravel. I know, some could argue that maybe he wasn't all there to begin with. But I believe though truly, that, in 2016, he was running on this vision to make America great again, and voters were taking a gamble on him, because he didn't have a record to run on. And then, in 2020, obviously, the American people rejected him. And then, now in 2024, he's hell bent on revenge and retribution.
And so, I think it's really smart that Kamala has kind of shifted her messaging and her campaign to be Look, he has an enemy list, and I have a to-do list. She's focused on solutions. He's focused on petty arguments and getting revenge on people.
It's why he was focused on, today, during -- like, when he was interviewed, talking about how Hillary Clinton, I could have locked her up, I could have locked her up. That's where his mind is at. It's not on the American people.
COLLINS: And also, if he could have locked her up, he would have.
Because, I mean, Zolan, we covered the White House. It's something you remember very well, of how Trump used the DHS--
ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes.
COLLINS: --the DOJ, and obviously thought, you know -- and how he viewed them.
But I wonder, as someone who is at the Trump rallies, and when you are covering this race. That is something that you've actually heard, from even Trump's allies, who -- I mean, he has aged eight years as well. But it is different in the sense of his experiences. And what she said there was, she said, his bitterness over how he's been treated.
KANNO-YOUNGS: Right, the level of being so clear and candid about wanting to seek retribution, right? And also just portraying and describing sort of the country, in sort of this dark way as well.
[21:40:00]
In the interview, you guys touched on his comment today about firing Jack Smith within two seconds, two minutes, when he gets into office? That has been a trend, really, throughout this campaign season, where he has not been shy, to say something that we were hearing a lot from staffers, when we were covering the administration. That this was somebody that, when he was in office, wanted to use these agencies, and bend them to his will, in a way.
And in recent events on the campaign trail, you are seeing that more clear, his intent to seek retribution against political enemies as well as critics.
COLLINS: Yes, but Scott, the point also still stands. And what we -- what I asked Secretary Clinton about is, there are voters who are worried about how to pay for groceries.
We heard from Pam Thistle, last night. I was obsessed with her at the town hall, as she was talking about her experience, and what she's weighing. And it's not always whether or not Donald Trump is going to use the DOJ, as his own personal weapon.
KANNO-YOUNGS: Yes.
COLLINS: She's worried about what it looks like when she's filing her taxes in April.
JENNINGS: Yes, and I would just -- this retribution conversation, just remind you all that Joe Biden, the current President of the United States, campaigning in New Hampshire this week, literally said out loud, We got to lock him up.
MATTHEWS: And then corrected himself immediately.
JENNINGS: And so, he said -- the President has to be a little more precise, with all due respect -- We got to lock him up. So all this conversation, it was Biden this week who made the most news, on the retribution front.
COLLINS: OK. So Biden won Donald Trump, 6,982 votes.
JENNINGS: I'm just -- he's the current -- he's the -- he's the current President.
MATTHEWS: Look, I think--
KANNO-YOUNGS: And did clarify to say, politically.
JENNINGS: OK.
MATTHEWS: I would add to that. He did say today that his--
AXELROD: Yes, it's just a--
JENNINGS: Listen, every--
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: --that's a strong defense of--
JENNINGS: So--
AXELROD: --Donald Trump.
JENNINGS: Well, no, let me finish.
So everybody rushes to Biden's defense on this. I'm just -- it was -- it was a bad--
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: Nobody's defense -- I think it was a stupid thing to say that--
JENNINGS: It was a bad -- it was a bad-- MATTHEWS: No. I said that he corrected himself. It was a bad gaffe.
JENNINGS: --it was a bad moment.
MATTHEWS: It was a bad gaffe.
JENNINGS: But to your point, there is a reason that two-thirds, roughly, of the American people, according to some polling, think we're off on the wrong track. And it largely is what David said, inflation, cost of food, cost of housing, all of the day-to-day concerns.
And so, when I hear Hillary Clinton, sort of dismissing people, who want to vote for Donald Trump, and not really even mentioning some of the day-to-day concerns of people? It reminds me of why she was so unpopular, why she lost, and why Democrats are struggling to get over the hump in this election.
COLLINS: Well, to be fair, she could have easily won. I think it was 75,000 votes that decided that, when you look at that.
JENNINGS: Could-have-would-have-should-have.
COLLINS: Scott, obviously.
But we've seen democracy resonate as well in the numbers. We're looking at some other numbers that are coming in. I want everyone to stick around. We're going to check those out after a quick break.
Because, tonight, on the trail, right before we interviewed Secretary Clinton, you saw Vice President Harris and former President Obama together. That's the first time they've been on the campaign trail, this election season. More on what was said there, and Donald Trump's time on the campaign trail today as well. That's next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: For the first time ever, as the Democratic nominee, you see Vice President Harris there, sharing the stage with former President Barack Obama. They were in the crucial battleground of Georgia, tonight.
And while she was there, Harris borrowed a familiar slogan, as we close in on the final days of this race.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: We have a lot of work ahead of us. But we like hard work.
AUDIENCE: Yes.
HARRIS: Hard work is good work.
AUDIENCE: Yes. HARRIS: Hard work is joyful work.
AUDIENCE: Yes.
HARRIS: And make no mistake, we will win.
AUDIENCE: Yes.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: We will win. We will win.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: Or as a certain former President would say, Yes, we can.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It wasn't just those two on stage. There was an entire ensemble of celebrities who were there, Bruce Springsteen, Tyler Perry, Spike Lee, Samuel L. Jackson, all of them fighting to try to shut Trump's hopes of getting Georgia, just 12 days before Election Night.
My political sources are back here.
And David Axelrod, Georgia is close.
AXELROD: Yes.
COLLINS: I've been talking to Republicans who say they think Trump will eke it out there. But it is remarkable just how close it is, given he's got a popular Republican governor there that he's been feuding with.
AXELROD: He wasn't always popular with Trump. But yes.
COLLINS: Certainly not.
AXELROD: Yes.
COLLINS: But he was popular with the voters.
JENNINGS: I know.
COLLINS: But what do you make it -- I mean, when you see, the final days of this race.
As we were getting ready to interview Secretary Clinton, I was looking at the final days of her race, lot of celebrities out on the road with her. Obviously, it wasn't what ultimately could pull her across the line.
Does it make a difference here? What's the purpose of this? AXELROD: Well, look, I think at this point, you're trying to energize people to come out and vote, and I think that's largely what the purpose of that rally was. And celebrities do help, in attracting people and attracting attention. They're delivering a Get Out the Vote message. I think it's a useful exercise.
Because, as you point out, and as every poll suggests, it, like all the other battleground states, and -- but let me tell you why it's important. She needs an insurance policy against a chip in the blue wall. And I think Georgia is a -- is a prime, prime possibility for her. I think that race is winnable. And if you lose Michigan, which is 15 electoral votes, Georgia is 16, and then you're back in the game.
COLLINS: And of course, Clinton lost Michigan by 10,000 votes. I mean, you see just how close that can be, especially with the Arab-American vote.
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: What are you hearing from your sources about how they're viewing that? Are they seeing it as an insurance plan?
KANNO-YOUNGS: They are -- I mean, absolutely.
And also, just right now, this strategy, getting each celebrity out, getting the former President to go out and stump as well. When you talk to folks around the campaign, and the Democrats, there is real anxiety, about voters on the margins, about voters staying home, whether that's Black men, whether that's Arab-American voters. And that's across the country.
And at this point, the focus is just for them on getting as many allies out, or, in the case of Liz Cheney, getting Republicans out, to energize maybe conservatives as well, who can't bring themselves to vote, for Donald Trump. They basically see this as there's multiple different constituency groups of voters here that we are -- that the campaign is anxious about staying home.
So in their words, they're saying, We have to bring out all allies, each one pertaining to a different group, to basically prevent them from staying home, and try to get as much turnout as you can, in the final stretch of this campaign.
[21:50:00]
But make no mistake, I see those events and sort of the intention to have excitement and energy. And I also see anxiety behind that, and a real sort of nervous--
JENNINGS: Yes.
KANNO-YOUNGS: --growing in the campaign.
JENNINGS: I think -- I think they are leaning in to everything that has nothing to do with the core problem of the campaign, which is that people just don't really know what she would do as the president. I mean, that's the main problem. They've heard all the attacks on Trump. They know the celebrities like Democrats. We know all this.
What we don't know is, what would she actually do as president? This was the deficiency, in the CNN town hall, last night. Can't answer basic questions that she's been asked, over and over and over again. Doesn't want to discuss the biggest issues and any specificity whatsoever.
None of these star-studded rallies, none of this -- it's all anti- Trump, and shut up and show up. That's basically the campaign. Now all--
AXELROD: Yes? How many of them have you attended?
JENNINGS: Well, I'm watching them often, on our--
AXELROD: Because--
JENNINGS: --it's (ph) here.
AXELROD: Because she has been pretty specific about economic proposals. You cover.
KANNO-YOUNGS: Yes.
AXELROD: The whole middle-class emphasis has been big.
JENNINGS: She got asked about taxes, last night--
KANNO-YOUNGS: I would--
JENNINGS: --and said, Well, this is too complex to discuss. Would you say that was a specific answer?
MATTHEWS: Trump was asked about his health care plan, and he said that he had concepts of a plan. I mean, you can't--
AXELROD: Yes.
MATTHEWS: --knock her for specificity when--
JENNINGS: I can.
MATTHEWS: --Donald Trump would not articulate any policy plan.
AXELROD: No, no, he will, and he can, and he--
JENNINGS: Listen. Listen.
MATTHEWS: He doesn't--
JENNINGS: I understand, you're here to speak for her. The reality is--
MATTHEWS: Yes.
JENNINGS: --people know Trump. He was the--
AXELROD: And you're here, you're speaking for him.
JENNINGS: He was the president.
MATTHEWS: Correct.
JENNINGS: His job approval--
COLLINS: He's speaking for him (ph).
JENNINGS: His job approval, from his term in office is far higher than her job approval as the Vice President.
MATTHEWS: Well, you know what?
JENNINGS: So, the way to cure that is to tell people how you would do it differently from the administration that is drastically unpopular.
MATTHEWS: What was really interesting to me was today, Donald Trump said, not once, but twice, that he would fire Jack Smith in two minutes. I think that tells you everything about what his agenda is.
He didn't talk about health care. That's not his first act in office, when he gets sworn in, if he gets to be president again. He didn't talk about the border. He's not talking about the economy.
He said, I would fire Jack Smith in two minutes. Why? Because that's why he's running for president, because he wants to stay out of prison, and he doesn't want to be held accountable for the alleged crimes that--
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: Yes, I don't think that was actually news, that he would fire Jack Smith. But I do think--
MATTHEWS: Well, yes, but it shows you his mindset of why he's running.
AXELROD: But I do think your -- your previous point, Sarah, was important.
People do have to ask themselves, Is he going to wake up every morning, thinking about their problems?
Or is he going to wake up every morning, thinking about how he can seek vengeance on his political enemies? And there's a whole lot of evidence that it's going to be that way.
COLLINS: Yes, great point.
Thank you all for being here.
And I should note, this is something that ranks as one of the least important issues to voters, when we're talking about what they care about. But it is an issue that Donald Trump is spending millions of dollars, from his war chest, to buy ads, attacking Harris over. We'll talk about it after this. [21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The economy, immigration, democracy, all of those are top issues with voters, when we talk to them and ask them in polling, as we are now, just 12 days away from Election Day.
But lately, when you look at the ads that we are seeing, from the Trump campaign and its allies, they've largely been focused on this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Surgery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For prisoners.
HARRIS: For prisoners. Every transgender inmate in the prison system would have access.
CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, AMERICAN RADIO HOST: Hell no, I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kamala supports transgender sex changes in jail with our money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kamala even supports letting biological men compete against our girls in their sport. Kamala is for they/them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of the $66 million that the Trump campaign and allied groups have been spending on TV ads this month, roughly a third of it, $21 million, has been going to ads like the one that you just saw, attacking Harris over her past stances on taxpayer-funded gender transition surgeries, for detained immigrants and federal prisoners.
Of course, I should note that The New York Times followed up on some of these ads, by noting that when Donald Trump was in office, the Bureau of Prisons also offered gender-affirming treatments.
My source tonight on all of this is the CNN data guru, Harry Enten.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Great title.
COLLINS: It is a good title.
ENTEN: Yes.
COLLINS: It's better than your real title.
ENTEN: I think so. I'm going to get it in the next contract.
COLLINS: Yes, I'll help you. But on this, this is so interesting to me, because when you -- you know, we had this conversation just a few moments ago, democracy, paying your bills, groceries. Trans issues, is not something that you see voters saying, That's my number one concern, that's what I'm voting on.
So, why are we seeing so much money spent on it, in the ads?
ENTEN: Yes, I mean, it ranks 22nd out of 22nd importance to your vote, according to Gallup. That's pretty gosh darn low, I would say.
So, to me, it's either, A, the Trump campaign is completely out to lunch. Or, B, the polling questions that we have available to read to the public are, simply put, not asking the question necessary.
And you say, transgender rights. To me, actually, the question is, how important is it anti-transgender rights? That would actually probably be a better poll question to get at, perhaps what the Trump campaign is getting at.
COLLINS: Because they're hoping -- because a lot of this you're seeing during -- if you're watching a football game on TV, this is what's showing. I mean, they're very clearly trying to target voters with that kind of a message.
ENTEN: Absolutely. I think what this is largely about is actually showing that Kamala Harris is out of the ideological mainstream, right? It's saying that she's too liberal.
And indeed, if you compare how, the percentage of Americans who say she's too liberal, to the percentage who said the same thing about Joe Biden, four years ago? You see a significant significantly larger portion of the American public say that Kamala Harris is too liberal.
And I will also note, plenty more Americans say that Kamala Harris is too liberal than say that Donald Trump is too conservative. So, I think this is about pushing her out of the ideological -- ideological mainstream more than basically anything else.
COLLINS: I've heard from some people like Utah governor, Spencer Cox, saying, This isn't something that our legislature should be talking about, because it's not a big proportion of our population or something.
I mean, with trans people being a target, how do voters feel about that, when they see how they're being treated in these ads?
[22:00:00]
ENTEN: I would say that the clear majority of Americans, if you ask them whether or not transgender folks should just be allowed to live the way that they want to live? The majority say, yes. And that -- including in the swing states, you see them in The New York Times swing state polls, the clear majority believe that transgender folks should be able to live the way they want to live. So, I think there is the fear perhaps that the Trump campaign should have, that maybe there'll be a backlash if they go too hard on this issue.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see after the election.
ENTEN: We'll see. Time will tell.
COLLINS: Harry Enten, as always, thank you for looking at those numbers.
ENTEN: Thank you.
COLLINS: That was really interesting.
Thank you all so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
