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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Harris, Trump Hold Dueling Rallies In Battleground Wisconsin; "No Obamacare": Johnson Vows Health Care Overhaul If Trump Wins; Georgia Secretary Of State & Allies Create Fund To Fight Election Interference. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 30, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
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The news continues right now. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
With six days to go, both candidates are battling it out in Wisconsin, this evening.
Vice President Harris is speaking live, this hour, as we are digging into brand-new polling on that critical blue wall of Wisconsin, Michigan and of course, Pennsylvania.
And meanwhile, Donald Trump in a garbage truck, and wearing an orange vest, as the former President is trying to keep the focus on President Biden's garbage remark, from last night, and recreate a moment from the 2016 campaign trail.
Also, that Georgia election official, who Trump pressured to find him 11,000 votes that did not exist for him, has a new plan to fight back tonight against bogus lawsuits and threats against officials. He'll join me live, this hour.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
We are expecting to see Vice President Harris on this stage shortly, in Madison, Wisconsin, not just the home of the famed Camp Randall football stadium, but also a critical voting area for Democrats, where college students could help put her over the top, in that state.
She's rallying just a few hours south of where we saw Donald Trump earlier, wearing that vest, and also with Brett Favre in Green Bay.
As Harris and Trump are making their closing pitches, in Wisconsin, we're getting brand-new numbers tonight from that blue wall that includes Wisconsin, including numbers that show Harris is just ahead of Trump there, just outside the margin of error, 51 percent to 45 percent.
We're going to get more to this brand-new polling in a moment, including the all-important Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, where Donald Trump tonight is baselessly claiming there's widespread cheating underway.
And if history is any guide, as far as Trump is concerned, as we know, sowing doubt about the vote now will help him raise hell later, if things don't go his way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you imagine any circumstances under which you would be defeated, but not say that the election was stolen?
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Yes, if it was a -- if it was a corrupt election. That could happen.
They found a lot of smaller things in Pennsylvania, as you know. And I think they've been corrupted and taken care of. They were, they were corrupt. They were corrupted. But I think it's been taken care of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they find no evidence of cheating, will you accept the results?
TRUMP: Of Pennsylvania? Sure, I would. Oh, if they find no evidence of cheating anywhere else, I would. I hope that's going to be the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, there was no evidence of widespread cheating in 2020, and Trump still continued to argue that that election was stolen.
I should note, Trump's campaign has successfully sued to extend mail- in voting, in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, after saying that some of the voters there were turned away, while they were waiting in long lines.
We'll get into the irony of Donald Trump wanting more mail-in voting, after, of course, he spent years trashing it and discouraging people from doing so.
But this decision by the judge was also applauded by the ACLU. It's not exactly a controversial ruling.
But regarding those two counties that are investigating potential issues, related to voter registration applications, not ballots. I talked to Pennsylvania's governor Josh Shapiro, about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): I understand that Donald Trump wants to again use the same playbook where he tries to create chaos and stoke division and fear about our system. But again, we will have a free and fair, safe, and secure election in Pennsylvania, and the will of the people will be respected and protected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my political sources join me now at the table. That includes CNN's data guru, Harry Enten.
And Harry, these numbers are really interesting, of what it shows with Harris, when it comes to Michigan, Wisconsin. She is ahead of Trump in those states, when you -- when you look at the numbers, not just overall, but also on some key issues. It seems dead-locked in Pennsylvania, though.
What stood out to you in this new poll?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL DATA REPORTER: I think what stood out to me, is that the races haven't moved at all, not one iota. You go back to August, the numbers in all three states look exactly the same, as they do now. And you have to ask yourself, when these campaigns are spending all this gosh darn money on the air, especially in Pennsylvania, and it's just a dead heat.
So now, as we stand less than a week from the election, I continuously say Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania.
And I also continuously say, I have no idea what the heck is going to happen, and people call me a waffler for that. But I'm just being honest with folks. I have no idea. This is the tightest election I've ever seen.
COLLINS: Well, at least they call you that to your face and not behind your back.
ENTEN: That's true.
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: But OK, when I was looking at these numbers, what stood out to me as the non-data guru, was what voters feel in the blue wall, which is so important about Harris and the economy. Because she's actually doing a lot better than most people might expect, in Michigan and in Wisconsin.
ENTEN: Yes. I mean, if you look at the economic numbers, look, Donald Trump leads on the economy, in all three of those states. But the leads in Wisconsin and Michigan are quite small. They're significantly smaller than they are nationally.
And I think that that gives you an understanding of why Harris is doing so well, at least in our particular polls, because this is the issue that Donald Trump is supposed to dominate on. We continuously see voters are saying this is the top issue for him.
If he's only leading by a handful in Wisconsin and Michigan, and let's just say on Election Day, it ends up that Pennsylvania is the same thing? He, simply put, can't win this election. He really should be having double-digit leads on the economy, given Harris' strength on a slew of other issues.
COLLINS: I mean, David Axelrod, when you look at these numbers and see that she is doing better on the economy. I mean, that is not the common idea of how she is, with voters.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO OBAMA: Well she's been whittling away at that number, not just in this poll, but in other polls. But I think that their strategy has been not just to -- not just to try and whittle the lead down in that category, but also to make the case that who -- of who's going to fight for you in the economy.
In 2012, Kaitlan, Barack Obama lost this measure on Election Day in exit polls to Mitt Romney, and won the election. Why? Because people thought, He's going to fight for me in this economy. So, yes, Romney may run the macro economy better. But who's going to fight for me in the economy? Barack Obama.
I think she's going for the same strategy here, and I think it's showing some benefit.
COLLINS: Well, and in Michigan, the Trump team, to me, has been saying they feel really good about Michigan, that they've been looking at their own numbers. But when I look at these polling, Jamal and the new numbers that are coming out, Michigan is a little bit closer than they may let on, publicly, when you talk to them.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR TO VP HARRIS, CO-HOST, "TRAILBLAZE" PODCAST: Yes, Michigan might look like that. I was in Michigan, last weekend. I'm from there. I was there visiting.
I got to tell you, I talked to people on the ground. They were feeling very good about the canvassing. They were feeling very good about some of the turnout models that were happening. They're feeling better about the early vote.
Now, a month ago, that wasn't the case. People were feeling a little more skeptical about what was going to happen. But the campaign has done a lot of work, over the over the course of a very short period of time.
Remember, she wasn't even the nominee three months -- four months ago. So, they've had to basically rebuild the campaign around her. And one of the things that's true is there a lot more volunteers with Kamala Harris than there were with Joe Biden. And so, they really can leverage those volunteers in the turnout.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, as a veteran of two presidential campaigns, when you look at this, and you're looking at the numbers here, if you're a campaign insider, what are you paying the closest attention to in these numbers?
Whether it's Harris cutting into Trump's lead on the economy. Or in Michigan, in Wisconsin, she does better on honesty and democracy, by 15 points, in some cases.
MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST, PBS "FIRING LINE," VETERAN OF TWO GOP PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS: I think if you're the Trump campaign, you're not looking at CNN members. You're looking at your own internals.
And I honestly think the -- I think their internals are actually giving them pause, because I think they're seeing even more -- look, they have -- they do have a lot of resources for polling more than public media -- media companies have.
And they're probably seeing the same things that you guys are talking about, which is that there is real groundswell, in the early vote. There is real enthusiasm, which is hard to measure. I have -- I have heard from Republicans that there is concern at the Trump campaign, amongst the operatives that actually really do know the political wherewithal, that the turnout and enthusiasm numbers are (ph) where they need to be.
SIMMONS: Can I just--
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: So, can I could just echo something Harry said?
COLLINS: Yes. And we're going to--
AXELROD: Nobody knows what the hell is going to happen. This is a -- this is a really, really close election. All of these states.
And with all due respect, I have a lot of respect for the CNN pollsters. But you look at the -- you aggregate these polls. And when you aggregate them, they're too close to call, and they all going to be too close to call, and we're going to know in sometime, next week, hopefully what the answer is.
But I think there are some imponderables here. Is there a hidden vote--
HOOVER: Yes.
AXELROD: --among Republican women, and White non-college women, for her? Is there this -- are we going to see the same effect we've seen in the last elections, where Trump produces a vote that pollster -- that has eluded pollsters? A lot of the pollsters say we've done so much to guard against that that we may have over-cranked--
ENTEN: That's--
AXELROD: --that possibility.
ENTEN: Yes, so I think there are a few things that are going on. Number one, if you tally up all the states and the Electoral College and try and project out what's going to happen? I've done that. I've done that for every election since 1972. At this particular point, it's the closest race when you tally up the electoral map, since 1972. But more--
COLLINS: Hold on.
ENTEN: Yes, go ahead.
COLLINS: I want to listen to Harris. Harry, just pause that thought. She's speaking in Wisconsin, right now.
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: --who is unstable.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: Obsessed, obsessed with revenge.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: Consumed with grievance.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: And out for unchecked power.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
[21:10:00]
HARRIS: And in less than 90 days, it's either going to be him or me in the Oval Office.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: And here's what -- here's what you know, and it's, here's what we know. If he is elected? It's not going to happen. But if he were elected? On day one, Donald Trump would walk into that office with an enemies list. You know, he talks about the enemies from within.
(BOOING)
HARRIS: When I am elected, I will walk in with a to-do list focused on your needs.
(CHEERING)
COLLINS: And that's Vice President Harris, echoing a message we heard from her, in prime time, last night, as she says that if Donald Trump is re-elected, he will have an enemies list from the Oval Office. She argues she'll have a to-do list.
And back here now with my political sources.
Axe, earlier at Trump's rally, he played a super-cut of Harris' speech last night, just saying his name, dozens of times.
AXELROD: Yes.
COLLINS: Obviously, I mean, it's not surprising she said his name a lot. But hearing her now talking about turning the page. These are the final messages that they are bringing to voters, in places like Wisconsin.
AXELROD: I actually think the message that she's landed on here is the right message, which is, beyond all the policy prescriptions, the question is, Who do you wake up every morning, thinking about? Are you thinking about yourself and exacting vengeance on others? Or are you thinking about people who are struggling out there, working families trying to get by, and what you can do to help?
And I think, ultimately, you have to assign a cost to Trump's behavior, to people who are worried about their own welfare out there, their own ability to make a living. And I think that is the -- that is the question that they should be asking themselves. Who's actually going to -- who's actually going to do the work and fight for me? And who's going to be up tweeting and trying to jail people?
SIMMONS: Yes.
COLLINS: I think Trump posted at 02:37 on Truth Social, last night, when I--
AXELROD: Yes.
ENTEN: Normal person.
COLLINS: --when I woke up this morning, and checked.
ENTEN: Normal person.
AXELROD: We used to have this thing.
SIMMONS: Yes--
AXELROD: We used to have this thing. And you know this. There used to be ads about what happened, who's going to be--
HOOVER: The 03:00 a.m. phone call.
AXELROD: Well, how's the president's going to behave when the 03:00 a.m. calls about some crisis in the world? Like Trump will be up tweeting, creating problems, not solving them, at 03:00 in the morning. And I think that's something people should consider.
SIMMONS: Kaitlan, we were going back and forth, a second ago, about what might happen, and what's happening in these numbers? I have a suspicion, though, that the way Trump is behaving is a little bit of a tell. I think he's nervous. I think the day the enemies list statement came out, I think he knows that he's got to get more of his people to turn out. And in order to get them to turn out, he's got to torque it up a little bit. And it's just like any other drug, to get people to get more animated, you got to give them more stuff to get them hotter and happier. And I think that's what he's doing.
And he knows that if he doesn't get his people to turn out, this thing doesn't work out. And a lot of those voters are very hard to turn out. He's trying to get these low-propensity men to show up. It's a very hard thing to do. You got to work them. You got to show up. You got to call them. You got to move them.
Democrats do that a lot. Republicans don't have a lot of experience in it.
ENTEN: I'll keep it quick. I went back, the last two elections, Republican Party was underestimated. You know how many times the same party has been underestimated three presidential elections in a row? Zero. Zero. Pollsters oftentimes will actually overcompensate for their pollsters (ph).
AXELROD: Yes.
ENTEN: Don't be shocked if Kamala Harris is actually underestimated, come next week.
COLLINS: Harry Enten, we will be checking your record, next week. Don't worry.
ENTEN: We'll find out. Who knows.
COLLINS: Up next. Speaking of the uniform Trump was donning today, it was a bright orange vest. He kept it on for his entire rally in Green Bay. It was after he hopped in a garbage truck, as he was trying to recreate a moment from the 2016 campaign.
Vice President Harris now commenting on it as well.
Plus, the Co-chair of Donald Trump's transition team will join me live. Remember that position Chris Christie once held? That feels like a million years ago.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Donald Trump, focusing today on President Biden's comment, last night, where he appeared to refer to the former President's supporters as garbage.
Of course, the White House has gone out of their way to clarify that, to say that he was speaking about a singular person, referring to that comedian, on Sunday, the President himself even posting about this.
You can see Donald Trump tonight. He was in battle ground Wisconsin, in a Trump campaign-branded garbage truck, as he wore an orange vest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: How do you like my garbage truck? This truck is in honor of Kamala and Joe Biden.
Joe Biden should be ashamed of himself if he knows what he's even doing. And she should be ashamed because she shouldn't let him do it. She's the Vice President, but I assume she's acting as the president. She should never have let that happen. I hope you enjoyed this garbage truck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, that comment came a few hours after we heard from Vice President Harris herself, on this. People were wondering what she would have to say about that comment last night.
Listen to her, in her own words, on it, this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: I think that the President has explained what he meant. But I said it earlier, I strongly disagree with any criticism of people based on who they vote for. And I've made that clear throughout my career, and including my speech, last night, before I think this all happened, which is, I intend to be a president for all Americans, and including those who may not vote for me in this election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I want to bring in my Democratic source tonight. Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, a surrogate for the Harris-Walz campaign.
It's great to have you here, Congresswoman.
[21:20:00]
It's very clear, Donald Trump and his team wants to recreate the Hillary Clinton moment from 2016, where she said that half of his supporters were deplorables. There was context to that. She actually writes about it in her book. We talked to her about it, last week.
But I think regardless of how Biden meant it, are you worried about the perception, and it hurting Harris, in these final days of this race?
REP. AYANNA PRESSLEY (D-MA): Well, President Biden quickly clarified his comments. It was clear that he was referring to the comedian.
And moreover, as Vice President Harris did in her closing argument, so effectively, in her remarks, last night, she's made it very clear that she is running to be the president for everyone, whether you agree with her or not, or whether you vote for her or not. COLLINS: Do you think it overshadowed her -- I mean, she gave this huge speech, last night. There were a lot of people there. I think it was 70,000 estimated. Do you think it detracted, though, from the attention focused on the speech, for people, who weren't watching it live, last night, on CNN?
PRESSLEY: Well, that certainly has not been my experience, Kaitlan.
But moreover, it's just more distraction and deflection from Donald Trump, who's desperate, who doesn't have a vision for this country, a plan for this country. At least not one that doesn't mean wholesale harm, as evidenced in the playbook that is Project 2025. So, it's more distraction and deflection, and he's desperate and running scared, which is why he would not agree to another debate.
COLLINS: The gender gap could be decisive in this race. We'll find out. It's hard to say, until next week actually happens.
But Trump has been talking about his deficit with women voters, specifically, something that you can see very clearly in a lot of the polling.
Listen to the argument that he made in Wisconsin, just a few moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: About four weeks ago, I was saying, No, I want to protect the people. I want to protect the women of our country. I want to protect the women.
Sir, please don't say that.
Why?
They said, We think it's -- we think it's very inappropriate for you to say.
I said, Why? I'm president. I want to protect the women of our country.
Well, I'm going to do it, whether the women like it or not. I'm going to protect them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: How do you think women hear that comment?
PRESSLEY: Yes, I think women see that exactly for what it is. We have a long memories. There's no selective amnesia here. This is an attempt by Donald Trump, to revise and rewrite history.
As he has stated, he stacked the courts, and played the critical role in the overturning of Roe, and he was jubilant about that, and took all the credit for it. And again, in Project 2025, written by Trump's friends, for a Trump White House, to advance Trump's agenda, institutionalize Trumpism, they laid right out in black and white that Dobbs is just the beginning.
So, it is clear that they want a national ban on abortion, and that would stand to have a domino effect, when it comes to reproductive rights and freedom from birth control and contraceptives, to IVF, to Mifepristone, and medication abortion.
COLLINS: Yes.
PRESSLEY: So these are -- yes.
COLLINS: Well, and Trump has claimed he would not sign a national abortion ban. I know Democrats have said, they don't trust that or believe that.
In Wisconsin, tonight, Harris is on stage--
PRESSLEY: Right (ph).
COLLINS: --right now.
And I should note, Jeff Zeleny, who is there, from CNN, he said that she was just interrupted by protesters, who were chanting about a ceasefire happening now. Harris said -- she also said that she's working as hard as she can to make a ceasefire happen and a hostage release.
But this is something that we keep seeing showing up. And the question is, how it shows up in the votes, next week. Are you worried, or do you think that the Harris and Walz campaign has done enough to address those voices?
PRESSLEY: Well, Kaitlan, I take the Vice President at her word that they're working around the clock, for exactly what we need, which is a bilateral and permanent ceasefire. It is also notable that they have been intentional. I know Governor Walz met with some leaders of the Arab and Muslim community recently.
And in my experience with the Vice President, she's not afraid to have hard conversations. And so, I'm glad that they do continue to actively do the work of earning, as many votes as possible, and building confidence and trust with community.
I don't want to ever talk anyone out of their pain and their grief. It is unimaginable. It is real. It is horrific. We need a bilateral, permanent ceasefire, to save lives. And we need an offensive arms embargo to save Israeli lives, to save American lives, to save Palestinian lives.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: Yes. And, of course, Harris has said she does not support one of those. Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley, thank you, as always, for your time tonight.
Coming up, here on THE SOURCE. We're going to speak to the Wall Street CEO, who is leading Donald Trump's transition team. That's in case he wins next week, and there is the second Trump term, putting in the measures of what exactly that would look like. We'll talk to him next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In a sign of how soon one of them will be the next president, representatives for both the Harris and Trump teams met, just yesterday, with federal transition planners.
[21:30:00]
Trump, of course, famously had a rocky transition in 2016. His team delayed working with the incoming Biden team in 2020. The challenges of those transfers and those transitions that happened very quickly do show just how critical this process really is.
My inside source tonight is the Co-chair of the Trump-Vance Transition Team, and the CEO of the investment firm, Cantor Fitzgerald, Howard Lutnick.
It's great to have you here. I imagine you are quite busy, as of this moment, because you're basically planning for, you know -- you don't know what's going to happen.
And in this moment, there's a technical process here, where you're meeting with the other teams, and these federal transition planners. You're supposed to sign memorandums of understanding, these kind of ethics agreements that unlock access to national security secrets, or millions of dollars.
The Trump team has not yet done so. Why not?
HOWARD LUTNICK, CO-CHAIR, TRUMP-VANCE TRANSITION TEAM, CHAIRMAN & CEO, CANTOR FITZGERALD: Well, the lawyers are sort of working on the details, because the Biden administration has sort of thrown in a couple of little exciting extra words and paragraphs into it that the lawyers hadn't expected. But they're working through it, and I'm sure, I'm sure they'll sort it out. So, that's just way below, you know, way below the things that are important. And we'll sort that out.
But we don't need the money, obviously. It's not the money issue. So, we can save the taxpayers, some money. We're able to raise plenty of money on our own. And it's not going to be an issue. We are ready for the transition for Trump-Vance. We are so ready.
COLLINS: But do you think you'll ultimately get them signed, after that jostling behind-the-scenes? Or do you think maybe you won't sign them at all?
LUTNICK: Oh, we'll probably get them signed. But it's, as I said, it's up for the lawyers to work it out. But these are not important issues. This is sort of a low-grade issue that the Vance -- Trump-Vance transition is ready. We've got -- we've got so many candidates. We are so set up. I feel great. And it is completely different than it was like in 2016.
COLLINS: Well, it's a lot of jobs to fill.
So tell me why -- you know, in 2016 for people who are, maybe blocked, eight years ago, because it was so crazy from their memory. Chris Christie had been in your shoes, planning, and Trump kind of threw the books out, and they started over from scratch after he won.
You're saying it's different. How many jobs do you have? How many candidates, potential candidates do you have lined up so far?
LUTNICK: All right, so to compare me to Chris Christie, is like the difference of night and day, that's possible.
So we run -- I run personnel for the transition. Linda McMahon runs policy. So, she's working on the policy side.
So, I called the 150 top Republicans in the United States of America, from Steve Schwarzman, to Chuck Schwab, to Ross Perot, the list, a 150. They then vouched for five people each, and say, Look, these five people, we really trust. That's 750 people. And then those people, each gave between five and 10 people to the transition.
So, all vouched for, no interviews. Someone like, You know someone, you vouch for them. And you say, This is a first-class person. Then you think about, that's like 5,000 people.
Then I have the greatest teams in national security, in economics, who know the White House, who know domestic policy. And they go through all those people, and they put them in the various jobs, in the various positions. And we have really, at the top positions, between five and eight of the greatest candidates you've ever seen, ever seen.
And then I go back, because of what I do. I go back for the top 150 people and say, Come on. How about you serve?
And they say, No, you know, I don't really want to serve.
And I go, Let me--
COLLINS: So, you're having direct conversations with people about these potential high-ranking positions, cabinet secretaries, West Wing jobs?
LUTNICK: I am a recruiter, at a different level, than most people you will ever meet. And so, I just recruit them. And if there's one single inch of daylight they're going to serve.
And I have got the greatest people. I have someone who's a CEO of a $100 billion company, tech company. He says, OK, I'll go redo tech. You saw my relationship with Elon Musk at the rally, right? So, I brought Elon Musk into it. Elon Musk's ability to do Doge. He and I worked that out together, and we structured that. COLLINS: But would he actually come into the government? Because, I mean, he'd have to divest. It would be quite tricky, financially for him.
LUTNICK: He's not coming into the government. He can't sell SpaceX and Tesla.
COLLINS: He's not going to officially come in?
LUTNICK: No. So what he's--
COLLINS: So one person--
LUTNICK: He's going to be adjacent to it, think, adjacent to it, and writing software for the government, and then giving the software to the government, and helping the government.
COLLINS: So--
LUTNICK: It's going to be amazing.
COLLINS: One other person who was on stage, recently, and was talking about coming into the administration is RFK Jr. He said that Trump has promised him control of the public health agencies, HHS, which would be also CDC, FDA, USDA, all of these agencies.
Is that true? Has Trump promised him, basically, the HHS job?
LUTNICK: So, I spent two and a half hours this week, with Bobby Kennedy Jr., and it was the most extraordinary thing. Because let's face it, we've all heard on the news, all sorts of sort of snarky comments about him.
And I said, So tell me, how's it going to go?
And he said, Why don't you just listen to me explain things?
[21:35:00]
And what he explained was, when he was born, we had three vaccines, and autism was one in 10,000. Now, a baby is born with 76 vaccines. Because in 1986, they waived product liability for vaccines.
And, and, here's the best one, they started paying the people at the NIH, right? They pay them a piece of the money for the vaccine companies.
COLLINS: But hold on.
LUTNICK: Wait a minute. Let me finish.
And so, all of these vaccines--
COLLINS: But -- but -- but--
LUTNICK: --came out without product liability. COLLINS: Hang on.
LUTNICK: So what happened now?
COLLINS: Hang on.
LUTNICK: Autism is one in 34.
COLLINS: OK.
LUTNICK: Amazing.
COLLINS: Neither of us are doctors.
LUTNICK: We are not.
COLLINS: Vaccines are safe. RFK, I mean, he--
LUTNICK: Why do you think vaccines are safe?
COLLINS: RFK--
LUTNICK: There's no product liability anymore.
COLLINS: Because they're proven. They're--
LUTNICK: They're not proven.
COLLINS: Kids get them and they're fine.
LUTNICK: Why do you think they're fine?
COLLINS: But-- because they're proven scientifically to be so.
LUTNICK: I mean, I mean with -- how about this? It was one in 10,000 people with autism.
COLLINS: They go through rigorous amounts of testing.
LUTNICK: We all know so many more people with autism than added (ph) when we were young. Oh, come on.
COLLINS: OK. This is--
LUTNICK: I mean, his point is really interesting. So, here's what he said.
COLLINS: But vaccines don't cause autism.
LUTNICK: OK. Is--
COLLINS: Which is what RFK pushes.
LUTNICK: Ready?
COLLINS: Which is why people are concerned that he could get a job like HHS.
LUTNICK: He's not getting a job for HHS.
COLLINS: And I don't even think he could get--
LUTNICK: What he's trying to do -- here's what he wants to do. He said, I want data, I just want data, because they block the data.
COLLINS: But the data's out there.
LUTNICK: Wait. It's not.
COLLINS: They don't block it. You can look at it.
LUTNICK: He wants -- just wait.
COLLINS: It's a lie.
LUTNICK: He wants the data, so he can say, These things are unsafe.
He says, If you give me the data, all I want is the data, and I'll take on the data and show that it's not safe. And then if you pull the product liability, the companies will yank these vaccines right off, off of the market. So, that's his point. He's not trying to do anything.
COLLINS: OK. But--
LUTNICK: But things that made sense. And look--
COLLINS: This is not where I thought this was going.
LUTNICK: --I'm special--
COLLINS: Because--
LUTNICK: Well, I spent two and a half hours with him, so.
COLLINS: But RFK Jr. is a vaccine-skeptic. He pushes lies about vaccines. And I don't even think if Republicans--
LUTNICK: Why do you think he pushes lies? Why you said? You--
COLLINS: I don't know why he pushes them.
LUTNICK: --you said, I'm not a scientist, and you aren't.
COLLINS: Yes, but -- but--
LUTNICK: So, he just wants data.
COLLINS: --scientists say he pushes lies.
But here's my question on this.
LUTNICK: Oh, but scientists were paid to say, he pushes lies. I mean, let's give him the data. I think it'd be pretty cool to give him the data. Let's see what he comes up with.
COLLINS: OK.
LUTNICK: I think, it's pretty fun.
COLLINS: He pushed conspiracies about COVID. He had to apologize for tying vaccine questions to what happened in Germany during the Holocaust. So, I don't think he's the leading voice that--
LUTNICK: I promise you, I have not looked at all the things he's said.
COLLINS: --anyone's looking at for -- on health.
LUTNICK: No, but he's said, Round Up. Remember Round Up and Monsanto?
COLLINS: But you're saying--
LUTNICK: He went after that.
COLLINS: --he would not be in charge of HHS?
LUTNICK: No, of course not.
COLLINS: OK. So he's not going to be like an acting--
LUTNICK: He's not going to be the Secretary, no.
COLLINS: Well, he couldn't get confirmed.
LUTNICK: That's not what he wants to do.
COLLINS: But would he be in an acting position--
LUTNICK: That's not what he wants to do. He--
COLLINS: --or anything like that?
LUTNICK: I just told you what he wants. He wants to help get data.
COLLINS: You're saying he wants access to data.
LUTNICK: So, he can prove this.
COLLINS: But that would be--
LUTNICK: He just wants data, and he wants to prove things are wrong. And he says, If I can't prove they're wrong, that's fine. But if I can, I can save millions of Americans' lives and make their lives better. And I think that's pretty cool.
COLLINS: Yes, I'm not sure any data--
LUTNICK: So, he's just trying to do it.
COLLINS: I don't think any data would back that up. But on the front of acting secretaries, that would -- that would mean they don't have to get confirmed by the Senate, which typically cabinet secretaries do. When you're planning this out, has that been a consideration to just have people in acting positions and not Senate -- not confirmed by the Senate in the cabinet?
LUTNICK: Well, there's always an acting person, right, the day you come in. I mean, Biden did it. Obama does it. Trump does it.
COLLINS: Yes, but they get confirmed, within like--
LUTNICK: Right. No, and then--
COLLINS: --a month.
LUTNICK: And then you have your confirmees. There's 1,200 confirmees to go through the Senate. So Biden only ever got 850 confirmed, even though we had Chuck Schumer--
COLLINS: Yes, but his cabinet is confirmed.
LUTNICK: Oh, yes, yes, the big jobs going through.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Do you -- would the cabinet be confirmed?
LUTNICK: Yes, of course they are. And they're going to be confirmed reasonably quickly, like always happens.
COLLINS: Yes.
LUTNICK: Especially if you have the Senate, which the Republicans -- if Donald Trump is elected president, he will have a majority in the Senate, and he'll be able to get his people confirmed.
COLLINS: We'll see.
Howard Lutnick, thank you very much for your time.
LUTNICK: It's really fun.
COLLINS: Speaking of a second Donald Trump term. House Speaker Mike Johnson today was talking about an overhaul for Obamacare, if Donald Trump is elected. The Trump campaign says that's not his position. We'll tell you their statement tonight.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It's been a bit of grimacing, inside the Trump campaign, after Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson pledged to make major changes, to the deeply-popular Affordable Care Act, more commonly known as Obamacare, if Donald Trump is re-elected next week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Health care reform is going to be a big part of the agenda.
When I say we're going to have a very aggressive first 100-days agenda, we got a lot of things still on the table.
REPORTER: No Obamacare?
JOHNSON: No Obamacare. Yes, the ACA is so deeply ingrained, we need massive reform to make this work. And we got a lot of ideas on how to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, the Affordable Care Act transformed health care in the U.S. More than 45 million Americans are now enrolled into it.
And those comments come as Vice President Harris is pledging, in her campaign against Trump, to expand the Affordable Care Act. All of this putting a deeply unpopular position back on voters' minds, as they are about to go to the polls on Election Day.
My political sources are back here with me.
And Margaret, the House Speaker explained those comments. He's on camera. We can hear him. He said, "Despite the dishonest characterizations from the Harris campaign, the audio and transcript make clear -- I offered no such promise to end Obamacare," and acknowledged that it's "Deeply ingrained" in our system.
HOOVER: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, but he was asked, no Obamacare? And he said, No Obamacare, and said, massive reforms to it.
HOOVER: I mean, he's backpedaling, probably because he got massive backlash from the Trump campaign.
But the truth is, I don't know if anybody has told the Speaker of the House, who, by the way, is quite new to Congress, that it's the President that sets the first 100-day agenda, not the Speaker of the House.
If the Speaker of the House -- if he is the Speaker of the House, presumably he will be the Speaker of the House, because there is a Republican president? And Trump will be setting the agenda, not him. So, this--
AXELROD: Well on that -- on that point though--
COLLINS: But he's wearing a Trump-Vance jacket.
[21:45:00]
AXELROD: On that point, Margaret. It was Trump who said in the course of this campaign that he wanted to go at repealing the Affordable Care Act. Again, it was only after a bunch of hues and cries from Republicans who feared what that would mean politically--
HOOVER: The backlash to Jim Jordan.
AXELROD: --that he stopped talking about it. But even after they lost 60 votes to repeal the Affordable Care Act, they tried to do administrative -- administratively strangle it, in other ways, reducing the marketing of it and so on.
HOOVER: And they--
AXELROD: So, I do fear for the Affordable Care Act. I mean, it deeply ingrained. He's right. I don't think they can get rid of it. But there's plenty that--
COLLINS: What could they do?
HOOVER: Well--
AXELROD: Well, they could do what they did last time. They could try and reduce subsidies. They could -- they could try and limit the amount of budget for marketing of the program.
SIMMONS: Right.
AXELROD: So people don't know what's -- that it's available or when it's available. They could shorten the days in which it's available. I mean, all of these things were done in the past. It's very worrisome.
I was involved in the passage of the Affordable Care Act.
HOOVER: Right.
AXELROD: I also have a child with a chronic illness, so I've experienced what the health care system was like, before the Affordable Care Act. And I have people, to this day, come up to me with tears in their eyes because their lives were saved, their children's lives were saved.
And I -- I think -- I understand why they're worried about talking about this now. The question is, what happens later?
COLLINS: Well, but just given that, and what we just heard from Trump's Transition Co-chair. I mean, listening to him -- that is not where I thought the conversation was going, because we were talking about staffing. But talking about a meeting with RFK, who is a widely- known, I don't even want to say, vaccine-skeptic. He says -- he spreads lies about vaccines.
SIMMONS: Yes.
HOOVER: That's right.
COLLINS: Vaccines do not cause autism in children, as everyone here knows. But to hear that, and Trump promising him some kind of role in a federal administration? He said, Not HHS secretary.
I mean, is the Harris campaign talking about health care enough? Mot talking about enough, but pointing these kinds of things out, from Mike Johnson, to concept of a plan, to that?
SIMMONS: Yes, they've got some lines about it. But that's not really the ground they're fighting on. When it comes to health care, it's really going to be around what's happening, the access to -- access to abortion, and all the things that happen after that. Women who can't get breast screenings. What happens to OB-GYNs, who aren't going into the practice anymore? What's happening to health insurance costs? Those are the things that are driving it.
Because if they can get some of those suburban women, who are on the fence, or they don't like Donald Trump? They can get them focused on why those voters might turn to Harris. And she is the beneficiary of that--
AXELROD: I would--
SIMMONS: --electorally.
AXELROD: I would say, they are leaving something on the table. I think issues like this are vital to people. And home health care for elderly parents.
HOOVER: Yes.
AXELROD: I think the same women you're talking about are very responsive to that. Health care is a huge issue in this campaign.
COLLINS: Yes.
SIMMONS: She does do sandwich generation. She does talk about $35 a month insulin. So, there are -- there are lines about it.
COLLINS: Yes.
SIMMONS: But we think about where they're staking their ground.
COLLINS: As a Republican, does it concern you, hearing that RFK is meeting with the Transition Co-chair, and having a two-hour meeting, where he's sewing doubt about vaccines and asking to access data from the federal government? I don't -- I don't -- sounds really--
(CROSSTALK)
HOOVER: As an American, it concerns me -- not because -- not as a Republican or a Democrat, like.
AXELROD: It's concerning (ph).
HOOVER: And I mean, to be fair for our viewers, our viewers should know that I'm a Republican who is voting for Kamala Harris. COLLINS: Yes.
HOOVER: I mean, I am absolutely in this case, and in this instance, country over party.
I believe that the country is going to be better-served by Donald Trump being left behind, turning the page, and us moving forward. Because the conservative movement, frankly, is over, the modern American Conservative Movement, as we know it, is over, if Trump return to the White House.
I believe in a healthy two-party system. I don't believe that we have that now. I don't believe that we have a real competition of robust ideas that represent American values.
And so forget -- yes, I mean -- and the conspiracy theories are part of -- are part of the Trump chapter. And that's what Bobby Kennedy is, and that's just part of it. I mean, the election lies, the conspiracy theories around the election, around counting of votes, all, every -- I mean, we -- you know, there's a new conspiracy theory. There's 10 new conspiracy theories every day.
AXELROD: Let's be clear. Those conspiracy -- those -- those--
SIMMONS: But Kaitlan, there aren't even -- there aren't--
AXELROD: Those conspiracy theories cost lives.
HOOVER: Yes, they are.
AXELROD: They cost lives. This is not a game.
SIMMONS: And Kaitlan -- Kaitlan, they're not even--
COLLINS: Children's lives and--
SIMMONS: --they're not -- they're talking about not even letting the FBI do background checks for national security officials, for clearances. The wheels are off the wagon if Trump goes back into the White House.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, we will see what that looks like. I mean, we could find out in a week from today.
HOOVER: As early (ph).
COLLINS: What that could mean for a second Trump term.
Everyone, thank you for that.
Up next. Speaking of what's going to happen, in the next few days. Georgia's top election official is now preparing for a potential legal battle, if Republicans are filing baseless election fraud lawsuits, again.
The man who stood up to Donald Trump, in this moment, joins me after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: With both campaigns bracing for what could be one of the most litigated presidential elections in U.S. history, the Georgia Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, is now preparing to help those, who might need to stand up to officials, trying to delay the certification of the results as soon as next week.
[21:55:00]
Raffensperger and his allies have now created a legal defense fund to help officials fight baseless lawsuits, like the one that he faced in 2020 that cost him half a million dollars of his own money.
Raffensperger held his ground when Trump pressured him to find a 11,000 votes that did not exist for him, in the State of Georgia.
And Raffensperger said this, tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: I will hold both parties accountable to you, the voters of Georgia. And I stand ready to defend the results of the election, with election officials, all across the states. We will do our job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my source is Secretary Raffensperger.
And it's great to have you here.
Because this Election Defense Fund has already raised about $2 million. Have you heard -- or what have you heard, I guess, I should say, from election officials who are worried about going through what you went through, having to pay half a million dollars, in legal fees, to fight something that is completely baseless?
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, good evening, Kaitlan.
We've already seen this happen in Arizona, someone that was just doing their job was then sued on their personal basis, even though they're doing official duties. And then up in Catoosa County, Georgia, that happened earlier in the year. And then recently, we saw just really a county election official, out in Jackson County, was they wanted to -- the Board wanted to fire her, doing her official duties.
But at the end of the day, we want to make sure election officials know we've got their back, and we'll do what we have to do, to come alongside them, if they need the legal defense, when they're sued personally.
COLLINS: Well, and this is election officials.
Poll workers are also people who are coming under fire, this election. And we've seen a number of incidents, already playing out at polling stations. But I read that you are just so worried about them, you ordered lanyards for Georgia's precincts that serve basically as mobile panic buttons to call 9-1-1, if they encounter trouble, basically.
RAFFENSPERGER: Many of the counties have supplied that for their poll workers.
We all have -- also have a texting tool that you can -- it's really a See Something, Say Something, so you can notify not just our office, but local sheriff's departments, and then also your county election director. Let them know, what are you seeing on the ground there, and how severe is the crisis that you're having to deal with, right then.
But we also have roundtables, security roundtables throughout the state, to make sure that we were prepared, for any kind of situation we could see. That includes having deputy sheriffs parked in vehicles, out in front of polling locations, but making sure we know how to respond to these threats that could arise on Election Day.
We want to make sure that everyone enjoys the process. And that should be enjoyable. By state law, we have to keep those lines--
COLLINS: Yes.
RAFFENSPERGER: --shorter than one hour.
COLLINS: But in what world do we live in that poll workers need mobile panic buttons, just in case?
RAFFENSPERGER: Well, obviously, it's the world we live in. But they're doing work that -- just imagine, if you showed up, there wasn't a poll worker, how would we vote?
So, what they do is public service at its finest. And they're your neighbors. They're people you meet at church, out there, at the ball field, or at the grocery store. Just good people, just like everyone else, trying to give back to their community, and make sure we have fair, honest and accurate elections.
COLLINS: Yes. And I know that you try to be non-political. Obviously, you're the Secretary of State for all Georgians. Some people may look at you doing this job, and look at what happened, four years ago, and be surprised that you're still there, still willing to carry this out.
With Donald Trump already claiming fraud in Pennsylvania, baselessly, like he is tonight. Are you personally worried that if he loses Georgia again, he'll try to do what he did in 2020 again?
RAFFENSPERGER: Well, if you look at what we've done in the several years that I've been Secretary of State, we now have voter ID for all forms of voting. So, if you vote absentee, we have voter IDs. So we kind of shut down that argument about signature match. We added and layered in photo ID with driver's license number. Keeping the lines short, we think it's really important.
I've done two signature audits, making sure we have just American citizens on our voter rolls. We found 20, the last time. We just finished up the last one. And they've been -- those names have been forwarded to local D.A. for prosecution.
But we want to make sure people understand we have a clean list. It's an accurate list. We're going to do continuous audits, and we also have a big audit program with enhanced voting. We're going to actually audit all the races in Georgia, 100 percent of the scanned images on the human-readable text, not the QR code. We're going to show people that machines are not flipping votes. They're actually recording your selections--
COLLINS: Yes. It's--
RAFFENSPERGER: --and these are what the results are.
COLLINS: It's just crazy, you have to do that because there weren't real issues in 2020, in a way that affected the vote at all. And the fact that you have to prove that, to show something that didn't even happen in 2020.
RAFFENSPERGER: Well, we're taking away everyone's excuse, how someone could have come up short.
[22:00:00]
At the end of the day -- I used this example today in a press conference (inaudible) in the second round of his playoff game, and they came up short in the last half inning, and they lost by one run. But lo and behold, they just lined up, and then they went down the line, and they thanked the other team, congratulated them on their victory.
That's real character and action right there. And as a parent, grandparent, that's what we want to see. That's the American way. Accept your losses graciously.
COLLINS: Yes.
RAFFENSPERGER: But also when you win, do that quietly (ph). And I think that's the best of America.
COLLINS: Hopefully that's what we see, next week.
Secretary Raffensperger, as always, thank you.
And thank you all so much for joining us. "CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
