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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Source: Trump Likely To Pick Marco Rubio For Secretary Of State; Trump's Border Czar To Dem Governors: Get The Hell Out Of The Way; Sources: Melania Trump Expected To Skip Meeting With Jill Biden. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 11, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: --cold, for five years. And he had put himself in the middle of this case. As we said, he went to the police, and he told them that he was on the trail.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
KAYE: So, they would look at anybody, and any investigation, anyone who comes forward, they're going to look at.
COOPER: Yes.
Randi Kaye, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
That's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: And good evening. I'm Kaitlan Collins, live from West Palm Beach, tonight, where the announcements about who Trump will surround himself with, in a second term, are seemingly coming in by the minute.
We've just confirmed here, at CNN, from a source, that President-Elect Donald Trump is expected to pick Florida senator, Marco Rubio, to be the next Secretary of State, meaning he will be representing U.S. interests around the world. The New York Times first to report, late this evening, this.
And of course, as I should note, always with Trump, nothing is final until it is final. And it's not clear that an offer has been formally extended to Rubio yet.
But what we do know, tonight, is that Rubio is someone who was in the running to be Donald Trump's running mate, earlier this summer, and he had since made it clear that he was interested in potentially joining Trump's cabinet, if it was for the right role, sources told me. Now, with this pick, Rubio would become the top diplomat for the U.S.
And it also shows how far Donald Trump and Marco Rubio, in their own relationship, have come, from their former days as primary opponents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): There is no way we are going to allow a con artist to take over the conservative movement. And Donald Trump is a con artist. He is wholly unprepared to be President of the United States.
Donald Trump is a con artist.
He would be a disaster for America. He would split our party in half.
The party of Lincoln and Reagan cannot have as its nominee someone who refuses to condemn the Ku Klux Klan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, of course, politics is politics, and we have since seen how Rubio and Trump's relationship has changed.
I should note. One reason that people feel that Rubio could be a good fit for this position, is how he sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee and Senate Foreign Relations. He has deep foreign policy experience here.
And what this would look like tonight, as what we are also learning about another staffing decision, is what Donald Trump's national security portfolio, in a second term, is going to look like. We are also told that Trump has chosen, as his next National Security Advisor, Florida congressman Mike Waltz. That is the first Green Beret to ever serve in Congress.
And tonight, we are looking at this picture of what this is going to mean for when Trump is back in office. Both Waltz and Rubio are major hawks on China. Could be a sign of what that is going to look like.
I want to start this evening with CNN's Jim Sciutto, who is joining me on the phone, on this breaking news.
Jim, I just want to first get your take on hearing that it doesn't appear this is formal yet. But if Trump is leaning in this direction, and that is what all of our sourcing is indicating, at this hour, what the significance of a Marco Rubio, as a Trump pick for Secretary of State would be, in your view.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST (On Telephone): One, it very much, Kaitlan, puts China at the center of Trump's foreign policy, the combination of Rubio and Waltz, both of whom are big China hawks.
Rubio's portfolio in China goes back years. He's drawn attention to China's trade practices. He's pushed for restrictions, on selling advanced technology to China. He's highlighted China's mass incarceration, and forced labor, of Uyghurs in Xinjiang. As well as China's intelligence gathering inside this country. So, he has a deep and long resume on China.
And listen, shouldn't be surprising given that Trump himself, of course, has made China a target, both of his national security policy, but also his economic policy, the discussions during the campaign of imposing significant tariffs on Chinese goods. And this would bring to his team, a Rubio and a Waltz, two individuals with history there and focus on China.
I'll say this as well, that given the concern about some of Trump's foreign policy positions, particularly among Democrats, the outgoing Biden administration, but also some more traditional Republicans, I think it's safe to say that both Rubio and Waltz are not out-gear (ph), as it were, right? That their positions on China are very common with other Republicans. But also, frankly, it's a bipartisan position, right now, in Washington, a far more aggressive China policy, both in terms of national security and trade.
Their positions on Ukraine, for instance, Rubio has been a skeptic of--
COLLINS: Yes.
SCIUTTO (On Telephone): --of additional aid going there. He, like other Republicans, have said it's time to bring the war to an end.
[21:05:00]
But he is not a Republican, who has praised Russia. He's not a Republican, who has denied Russia's blame for the invasion, right? So, even as he has been skeptical of additional aid, he's not from the wing of the Republican Party that has questioned whether the U.S. should have been there, in any way at all before.
COLLINS: Yes, certainly a different view in that sense. Of course, the question is, what happens now, and with what we've seen on the ground.
Jim Sciutto, thank you for that.
And on this breaking news, I also want to bring in CNN Anchor and Chief Congressional Correspondent, Manu Raju.
Because Manu, as we were looking at this, I just want to note what Kristen Holmes is reporting, on top of this. She says that she heard from a source this morning, who thought Trump was leaning toward Ric Grenell, of course, who served as his acting Director of National Intelligence. Before that, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany.
We know Senator Bill Hagerty of Tennessee was also in the running for these two positions, though he seemed to have fallen out of the contention a few hours ago.
Manu, though, when you look at this, if this is what Trump ultimately formally goes with? And a caveat there, just because it's Trump. I imagine Rubio, would have a pretty easy time getting confirmed in the Senate.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question about that, Kaitlan. In fact, if it were Ric Grenell, that could potentially have been a problem for some Republican senators here.
Rubio is different, though. He is more -- he's one of the -- he's been a long-time senator. He's got a lot of allies in the Senate Republican Conference. He's one of those senators, who has straddled both the Republican establishment world, and the Trump MAGA world.
And he has despite of all of his criticism against Donald Trump, back in 2016, he has very much aligned himself and been a chief defender of Donald Trump, through his four years in office, and on the campaign trail and the like.
And his foreign policy views do align, to some extent, with the Republican establishment. But he also has broken with them as well. He did vote against the big foreign policy bill of this past year.
That was a $95 billion aid package that included aid to Taiwan, aid to Israel, aid to Ukraine. He called it legislative blackmail, that bill. He contended that it was -- it should not have been all tied together. Shouldn't -- should have done more to -- should have went after border security issues as well, even as Ukraine was clamoring for that money, at that critical moment, earlier this year.
So, he has broken from a lot of his colleagues, including the Republican leadership, on that issue. But he is very much on Trump's side here.
And assuming this pick goes through, I do expect him probably have no problems to get confirmed. But if he is confirmed to this post, then that opens up a vacancy in Florida for a Senate seat. This would give the governor there, Ron DeSantis, the ability to name a replacement to that post. So would not affect the current balance of power, right now.
But I can tell you, without talking to too many Republicans, at the moment, with this news just breaking, I will be talking to a lot of them tomorrow, I can expect many of them will be happy to hear this news. If it does happen, Marco Rubio getting this major pick, for Secretary of State, someone they believe can carry out America's foreign policy effectively on the world stage.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, we saw his fellow Florida Senator, already coming out and endorsing this idea on Twitter, when New York Times first reported it.
Manu, can I ask you though, before you go? Because we're also going to talk in a minute about the National Security Advisor pick, and Mike Waltz, a Florida congressman. Now, two Florida lawmakers, it sounds like, are going to be inside the Trump administration.
On that with the House margin. Of course, House Republicans were waiting to see if they have the majority here. It was already a pretty slim margin. I mean, obviously Mike Waltz is in a pretty safe Republican district. But what would that mean, in the time that it takes to call a special election, if he's going there, and Elise Stefanik is going to the United Nations, in New York?
RAJU: Yes, it's not good news. In fact, I talked to a number of Republicans, tonight, in the aftermath of those -- these two appointments, moving from -- moving ahead. They're making clear that they're not totally happy about this. Because they're worried that if Donald Trump were to name more Republicans to the post, that it would just make it even harder to pass bills in this Republican House.
This majority? Well, you're right. We don't know exactly they do have the majority yet. They aren't tracked to getting the Republican majority. But potentially, we're looking at anywhere from 220 to 223 seats. We'll see what ultimately plays out for the Republicans.
But each time they lose a member, it gets closer and closer to making it harder to pass bills, because if they lose one or two votes, on any single bill, that could stop the entire Republican agenda.
And not only that, Kaitlan. There's also a big speaker's vote that has to happen on January 3rd. Mike Johnson is running for Speaker, assuming they have the majority.
COLLINS: Yes.
RAJU: He has very little margin for error, if he's lost two votes already, two members already gone to the administration.
COLLINS: Yes.
RAJU: So, a lot riding on the size of the Republican majority. And as hopeful Republicans, they hope Donald Trump doesn't pick more House Republicans.
COLLINS: Yes, I'm sure Mike Johnson is keeping a close count of that.
Manu, thank you for that.
[21:10:00]
Also joining us on this breaking news is former Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger, who served on the Foreign Affairs committee.
Congressman, I just wonder, first, what is your initial reaction to the news that Trump is likely to pick Marco Rubio as his Secretary of State?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Yes, look, I mean, I think it's actually pretty good news. Marco Rubio has been obviously kind of changing -- I think he even voted against Ukraine aid, which was very surprising, when I learned that. But he's not a, you know, by no means is he like a neocon. So obviously that was important for Donald Trump. But he's somebody that understands foreign policy, and that's going to be important. So, as far as picks go, I think, compared to some of the other names that were floating around, people that don't have any experience with foreign policy, I think this is a pretty good one.
COLLINS: I mean, what does it say to you, about what foreign policy would look like in a second Trump term?
Because, I mean, they are about to inherit massive crises that are playing out across the world. Especially obviously, Russia's war in Ukraine, as you just mentioned there. We've seen what Senator Rubio has said in the past about Putin, and where that stands now. But also the war in Gaza. As a top aide to Benjamin Netanyahu is here, in Palm Beach, right now, as I speak. Barak Ravid reporting that he met with Donald Trump.
I mean, these are real crises that they're about to confront, in addition to what they don't know they could be dealing with.
KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, I'm not sure what the pick of Marco Rubio says for what their foreign policy is going to be, again -- and I'm willing to give as much leeway as possible. But Marco has shown his ability to kind of change compared -- for whatever Donald Trump demands. So it really comes down to what does Donald Trump demand.
On the Russia issue. You just got to take Donald Trump in his word that he thinks he can solve this in 24 hours. And his Vice President said, I don't care what happens in Ukraine.
I hope, though, that in this process, they're actually going to be able to -- if they're going to cut a deal with Russia, to cut a good deal, whatever that looks like, but one that makes sure that Ukraine is able to defend itself into the future.
In terms of Israel, look, this is continuing to be just a really complicated issue. There's no doubt that I think they will be -- they will put less constraints on Israel from this administration. I don't think that's a question.
And probably will be much more aggressive at confronting Iran, because the current administration was -- has been kind of like living under this idea that they can somehow resurrect the Iran nuclear deal. They're not going to be able to do them. So definitely be more confrontational to Iran.
And really quickly, if you look at it, Iran, North Korea, Russia, China is all kind of in-access at the moment. They're all an alliance.
COLLINS: Yes.
KINZINGER: So all of that is going to be important.
COLLINS: Well, and also, I mean, so much of -- the reason Trump staffing matters so much, and what I've been trying to remind people is, I -- covering Trump, the first time he was in the White House, so much of his relationships and his policy decisions had to do with what he was hearing from the people in his cabinet, and those around him. Oftentimes, when they soured, it was when they disagreed with him. Obviously, we saw that happen to many of the people who -- cabinet officials, who came before.
Given Trump's history with Marco Rubio, I just wonder how you're looking at that tonight. They went from these very bitter primary opponents, to then he was an ally of his, and to the idea that he's potentially going to be serving in his cabinet.
KINZINGER: Well, look, one thing that Donald Trump, is kind of a superpower of his, it's his ability to -- he holds grudges. But if somebody comes crawling back, he'll take them. And frankly, that's how you keep an alliance together. Because people will cross him, and either be kicked out, or they'll come crawling back to do his will.
And so, I think it shows that, Marco Rubio is a survivor. Again, he does know foreign policy. He's going to be -- you know, a lot of these issues around the world, it's not like Donald Trump is going to be making every decision. They have a lot of leverage, when you're the Secretary of State--
COLLINS: Yes.
KINZINGER: --or Secretary of Defense. And so, it'll be interesting to see. That's for sure.
COLLINS: Yes. Congressman, thank you for joining us on this breaking news.
Also joining me here is veteran journalist and Axios Co-Founder, Mike Allen. He's out here with me, in Palm Beach.
It's great to have you, because you've been obviously doing a lot of reporting on what this transition is looking like, behind-the-scenes.
First off, just tell me your -- what you make of the reporting that Trump is likely to pick Marco Rubio for Secretary of State.
MIKE ALLEN, CO-FOUNDER, AXIOS: Yes, a couple things about Secretary- of-State-to-be Rubio. The biggest one by far is this is to be reassuring to people around the world, to Republicans, to Democrats, in Washington, of the choices that President-Elect Trump had. Marco Rubio is a very traditional Republican.
COLLINS: Yes.
ALLEN: Kaitlan, as you were suggesting earlier, he did not come out of the Trump wing of the party. He was not a populist. So very traditional Republican views.
Second thing, Kaitlan, we've got to pause and say Marco Rubio is a great American story, right? He'll be the first Latino Secretary of State, son of two immigrants from Cuba. Grandfather fled Cuba.
COLLINS: Yes.
ALLEN: Dad, a banquet waiter.
[21:15:00]
And third, you mentioned, the world is so different than when President Trump was in office before. Now, President-Elect Trump is coming into wars. This is a hawkish choice. It's been hawkish over the years, on China, on Iran, on Cuba. But as the reporting suggested, earlier, he's moved toward Trump, including on the issue of a negotiated settlement for Ukraine, one of the biggest things on his plate, no question.
COLLINS: Yes. And those are just the issues they know they'll be dealing with. Obviously, every presidency confronts ones they don't think that they'll be dealing with.
But on this transition effort, just what it's like behind us, on that island over there, where Mar-a-Lago is located, and you've seen all this incoming of people coming in, meeting with Trump. He's been making this decision. You had some really fascinating reporting, on what this looks like, behind-the-scenes, as he's going through this process.
ALLEN: Yes, Kaitlan, in a column that Jim VandeHei and I did, we called it, The Cabinet Pageant, because at Mar-a-Lago, they've set up, in a conference room, they've made it a makeshift Situation Room.
And so, there are TV screens, where they show Trump, profiles of potential picks for the cabinet. And he can sit there, and he can say, Oh, I like to look at the Secretary of State picks, let's look at a little bit more about Marco Rubio. They can call it up. And embedded in those profiles are video clips, so he can see in real-time, what they've been like, and their TV hits.
Because Kaitlan, you know better than anyone, something that he really values, is someone who can carry his message. So both the central casting element, does this person look like a Secretary of State, and how will they do on TV, matters to the President-Elect.
COLLINS: So, it's almost like a PowerPoint slide, to a degree, where it's got photos and biographical details that are there?
ALLEN: Yes, it's like an -- it's like an interactive resume.
And the point is, for about 40 jobs, we're told, the President himself will make a determination on. And they're going through them -- so that -- you're mentioning the pace of the last few announcements. But a lot of these are not bait. And I think a lot of these are going to go on for a while.
The picks so far, if you were to put a button around all the picks, so far, you can say these people are confirmable, in the case of the cabinet choices--
COLLINS: Yes. ALLEN: --in the case of the White House. All very like responsible reassuring to Republicans who were sort of hoping for the best Trump. These picks so far are very much in the Republican main lane.
COLLINS: Yes, and we'll see. Of course, there's a few more to go. We'll see what that looks like, especially with the immigration picks, Stephen Miller and Tom Homan.
Mike Allen, great reporting, and thank you for joining us--
ALLEN: Thanks for your coverage.
COLLINS: --out here on our makeshift Palm Beach bureau that we have now.
Coming up. Sanctuary cities, there is a warning sign that is coming to them, from Trump's incoming Border Czar, who is firing off his first warning, when it comes to deportations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, TRUMP'S "BORDER CZAR" PICK: Some of these Democratic governors say they're going to stand in the way, they're going to -- they're going to make it hard for us.
If sanctuary cities don't want to help us, then get the hell out of the way. We're coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We also have new reporting, tonight, on why we're likely not going to see Melania Trump join the President-Elect, on Wednesday, at the White House, despite an invitation from the current first lady, Jill Biden.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back this hour, with our breaking news, out on West Palm Beach.
In addition to what you just heard that Senator Marco Rubio is likely to be headed to the State Department, in a second Trump term, and Mike Waltz, the Florida congressman, is expected to be Trump's National Security Advisor, we also have a flurry of other new picks to tell you about tonight, and staffing that will really be critical in what this second administration looks like.
That includes Tom Homan, who was Trump's acting ICE Director, during his first term. He's now going to be coming in as the new Border Czar.
CNN was first to report, today, also that Trump is expected to name his long-time immigration adviser, Stephen Miller, to be his Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy. And also a frequent guest that you've seen on this show, former Congressman of New York, Lee Zeldin, is expected -- is going to be Trump's pick to run the EPA.
All critical parts of what Trump is going to focus on, when he retakes power.
I want to turn to my political sources, tonight, on these selections. Joining me now is:
Former Obama administration official, Van Jones.
And also National Review Editor, Ramesh Ponnuru.
It's great to have you both here.
Van, I want to start with you. Just overall, looking at these picks, we're getting a clear picture of the national security portfolio, what that's going to look like. But also with Tom Homan at ICE, and Stephen Miller, who was obviously the two of them worked together, on the family separation policy. They have still continued to defend it to this day.
Overall, what do you make of these selections by the President-Elect?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Horrible. Horrible. Horrible.
The dynamic duo of dehumanization, Homan and Stephen Miller could not be worse, could not be sending a worse signal to the immigrant community, already terrified from the election result, hoping -- because they were hoping that maybe Donald Trump was just talking, and talking, and wouldn't actually do anything horrific to them. But he's setting himself up for a parade of horrors.
Listen. Marco Rubio, fantastic. Susie Wiles, fantastic.
But on the other side, you've got a real horror show coming on immigration.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: All right, Ramesh, how do you see it? Not -- well, yes, I guess in terms of immigration, we'll start there, given what Van just said. I mean, these are two people, who have made very clear -- they're not hiding. It's very clear what their views are. These are two regulars, on cable news, that have talked about this issue, for four years now, since Trump left office.
What do you make of them?
RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: Well, I do think there need to be some serious, even drastic changes in policy on immigration, especially on control of illegal immigration. But what form that takes is very much open to question. We don't really have a great sense of exactly which levers they're going to pull. So, for example, are there going to be serious sanctions on employers, who hire people that they know not to be here legally? That is one tool that the Trump administration, last time, did not really use. And it seems like something that is probably more productive than trying to round up millions of people, and have the mass deportation that some people fantasize about.
COLLINS: Yes, and we're going to talk to Brandon Judd, someone who knows these issues very well, in a moment, on immigration, specifically.
Because that's a good point. That was actually something that the Biden administration tried to go after those employers more, believing they should bear more of the blame than the workers themselves.
But Van, looking at this big picture, as we've been following this here, in West Palm Beach, I mean, one thing Trump made clear was that he wanted people, who are willing to carry out his agenda, who -- they're described as loyalists.
They're people who are not likely to say no to some of the issues, whether it's the Department of Homeland Security, and what he's aiming to do there. They're also talking to conservative lawyers, who they believe will help implement that agenda even further.
But also, obviously, Elise Stefanik, the new Ambassador to the United Nations.
These are all people who are very much in line with the Trump agenda.
JONES: Look, any president has the right to put together a team that's going to help him get done what needs to get done.
The problem with Donald Trump is that his agenda is so extreme. When you're talking about deporting millions and millions of people, you're talking about breaking up American families. You're talking about separating families.
You're talking about a level of attack against immigrant community that is horrifying, but also terrible for the economy. You're going to be deporting a lot of low-wage workers, which will push up the price of labor and the price of goods.
So, it's not -- sure, look, if he wants to get people around him that want to help him, that's good. The problem is the agenda is extreme. And then Trump has a tendency to be lawless, to want to break rules, to want to break norms, to want to skip over the checks and balances that make for good policy-making, and just do stuff. And that can be very, very reckless.
So it's not -- look, get whoever you want around you. But maybe follow the law, maybe respect the process and maybe respect human rights.
COLLINS: Ramesh, interesting Trump assemble this--
PONNURU: Kaitlan, I just want to-- COLLINS: Yes, go ahead.
PONNURU: I just want to jump, I want to talk a little bit about the foreign policy thing. Because I think one thing that's worth pointing out here is if you look at Waltz and Rubio, and even Stefanik, this is a mainstream foreign policy Republican selection.
Waltz and Rubio, in particular, you could have easily seen them in this sort of position in a Haley administration. These are not the people you pick--
JONES: Yes.
PONNURU: --if you are itching to pull out of NATO, for example. And so, in those respects, I think that these are pretty reassuring selections for U.S. allies.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, you might get them unpicked -- unselected from that with that comment like that. Ramesh, we'll see what this looks like.
Ramesh Ponnuru. Van Jones. Thank you both for joining.
On this immigration discussion that we're having. Obviously, we're seeing just how much this is going to be priority number one.
We're also hearing for the first time, from Trump's new Border Czar pick, as he is vowing to crack down on sanctuary cities, and also issuing a blunt warning that mass deportations are coming.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President-Elect Trump's newly named Border Czar, Tom Homan, has issued a stern warning to Democratic leaders, or blue states, or blue cities, who may try to stand in the way of Trump's plan, to deport millions of undocumented immigrants.
Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOMAN: Some of these Democratic governors say they're going to stand in the way, they're going to -- they're going to make it hard for us. Well, I -- you know, a suggestion, if you're not going to help us, get the hell out of the way, because we're going to do it.
Sanctuary cities don't want to help us, then get the hell out of the way. We're coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, this is not Homan's first time, dealing with hardline border policies. He was the acting Director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, when Trump was in office the last time. He championed the administration's short-lived zero-tolerance policy that separated families at the border, and was ended after severe backlash.
Homan also previously served as a Supervisor at ICE, during the Obama administration.
My source, tonight, is someone who knows Tom Homan well. Brandon Judd is the former President of the National Border Patrol Council, which represents roughly 16,000 Border Patrol agents and staff. I believe it's a little -- little more than that. But yes, it's quite a number.
And so, you know this policy so well. You know these folks so well. And I just wonder, as you look at these, these policies that Trump is promising to implement, in his second term. In his first term, he fell far short of the pledge to deport millions of immigrants. Do you expect that will be different this time around?
BRANDON JUDD, FORMER PRESIDENT, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: I do. And the reason why I think it's going to be different is because of the picks that he's making, right now.
[21:35:00]
I'm glad that you pointed out that Tom Homan was the head of ICE ERO under President Obama. Tom Homan also received a Presidential Rank Award from President Obama. So, he has worked with multiple administrations. He understands the administrations. He also understands this issue.
And so, when he says that they're going to be deporting these individuals, he's absolutely right. Because it's not a hard lift. We all know what needs to be done, in order to make this happen.
But Kaitlan, what the first message that's going to go out is, if you self-deport, then you can always reapply.
But if you wait, and you are actually removed, because you are illegal, and that's the key word, that they are here in the country, illegal? Then they're going to have that on their record, and they try to enter again, that's going to be a felony.
And so, I believe that what we're going -- initially going to see, is we're going to see an awful lot of people that do not have a legitimate claim to be here in the United States, they're actually going to self-deport.
COLLINS: How many people do you think would do that?
JUDD: I think it's going to be an awful lot. I think that the numbers is going to be a great number. Because all of these people ultimately want to be here in the United States. They ultimately want to be able to get to the United States.
And if they wait until they're actually removed -- again, if they have that deportation on their criminal record, and they try to enter again? Now it's a felony.
COLLINS: Yes.
JUDD: So, I think that you're going to see an awful lot of people do it.
COLLINS: Well, I ask because -- and with the Obama thing, that is obviously worth -- worth noting here. Obviously, Obama deported a lot of people. He deported way more people than Trump did.
JUDD: Yes.
COLLINS: Trump's number of deportations is actually in line with what President Biden's is so far, for people wondering.
But when you look at what this effort is going to be with Tom Homan and Stephen Miller, obviously both being named to key roles, they were both part of family separation policy.
Homan said that the effort to do mass deportations will be a humane one. Can you ensure that, though, if you're deporting people, and saying that, entire families can be deported together?
JUDD: So, the first people that are going to go, that they're going to target, are going to be the criminals. You're going to have to use your resources to go after the criminals first.
And then, you're going to obviously look at, OK, who are the people that did not show up to the court appearances, that knowingly violated another law? Who are the people that didn't show up to their appointments, for CI -- to CIS? Who are the people that flaunted our laws? And those are then the ones that you're going to go after.
And so, we're going to see layers on this. It's not going to initially be release ICE into the public, and go after -- and go out and just round up people. You're going to target individuals, because you have to look at what the resources are.
But what I do believe that Tom's going to do is, I believe he's going to reach out to the states, and he's going to coordinate with the states, and get local law enforcement to also help in this process, under the current laws that we have.
COLLINS: Well, and the question, of course, is the burden on local law enforcement.
But on this, there are millions of children in the U.S., right now, that have a parent that are in mixed-status households, that have a parent who is an undocumented immigrant. So, I mean, what happens if they have one parent or both parents? I mean, are those children deported? Is the suggestion that they also go with their parents?
JUDD: Kaitlan, those individuals are going to have an opportunity, to make a claim before an immigration judge. It's not just like we round people up and immediately send them out. When you take somebody into custody, they have certain rights to go before a judge. And a judge will ultimately make that decision. If the judge determines that that individual does not have a right to be here in the United States, then that person becomes deportable.
So, again, it's not just like Tom is going to go out and grab people, and start throwing them on planes. They are going to have the right to have their appeal heard, before an immigration judge. And that judge will ultimately make that decision.
COLLINS: His title as immigration czar, this time around. There is this thinking going around, in Trump's orbit, about having a lot of czars. He's considering making an energy czar. Another one's in the mix.
What is the difference in Tom Homan's authority as immigration czar in this administration?
JUDD: So, what he's going to do -- and this is a conversation that I've had with the President, on multiple occasions. One of the difficulties that we have is coordination -- is coordination between CBP and ICE. CBP is beholden to ICE. When we take somebody into custody, we have to hope that ICE is going to take them off of our hands.
When you look back, even under the Obama administration, this isn't just under the Trump administration, but if you go back and you look under the Obama administration, when the Border Patrol, when I would take somebody into custody? I ended up holding them a lot longer than what we were supposed to, because ICE didn't take them off our hands.
[21:40:00]
So, you're now going to have coordination. You're going to cut down on the bureaucracy. Tom is going to be able to coordinate, and ensure that that is, in fact, happening. And then, he's going to be able to report directly back to the President. Again, it's just streamlining a big process.
COLLINS: But so he's basically running immigration policy?
JUDD: Well, he's going to -- the DHS Secretary, they will be running it. But Tom will obviously be there to advise, and I'm sure that that DHS Secretary is going to listen to Tom, because he's going to be the one that has the experience in all of this.
COLLINS: All right. Brandon Judd, obviously, a lot of useful information there. Good to hear from you. Thank you so much for joining tonight.
JUDD: Kaitlan, always good to speak with you. Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. We have seen a lot of soul-searching happening, in the Democratic Party, including in an interesting way from Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She posted a mind-blowing question, as she put it, to her 8 million followers on Instagram. The head of the Congressional Progressive Caucus is going to join us, on that response, next.
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[21:45:00]
COLLINS: Faced with a stunning shift in voters choosing both Donald Trump and down-ballot Democrats, last Tuesday, a very curious Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez asked those voters, who split their tickets, to explain why, what their thinking was, on Instagram.
And the answers she got reveal the thought process that a lot of voters had this year.
As you can see here, one person replied, quote, I wanted to change -- "Wanted change so I went with Trump and blue for the rest of the ballot to put some breaks."
Others said, quote, "I feel like Trump and you are both real."
One said, It's real simple... Trump and you care for the working class.
My source tonight is the Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal.
And it's great to have you here.
Because we hear this from voters a lot, that they see Trump as being for the working-class. And I know you said, on Capitol Hill, today, at a press conference, that you thought your party failed to get its message out. What do you think went wrong in terms of that? Was it just the messaging part of this?
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Kaitlan, it's good to be with you.
I think it's a couple things. And I think we're still looking at all the data, to make sure we understand.
But I do think that not enough voters heard Democrats, talking about how we would make their lives measurably better, on an economic realm, in the economic realm. And they also saw too many Democrats as being sort of, willing to preserve the status quo rather than taking on a system that is clearly rigged against working people.
I also think it's interesting when you look not only at split-ticket voters, as Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez was doing, but also at the ballot initiatives that passed.
These were in Trump states, where people went around state government, and went directly to the ballot, because they felt that even their state government was not delivering for them. What were those issues? They were the populist, popular economic issues, like raising the minimum wage, like paid sick leave, that were absolutely essential to people doing better. And so, I think, we can take these lessons immediately. We will have a very good opportunity to showcase who this Republican majority is going to be for, this Republican White House is going to be for, when we deal with the tax -- the Trump tax scam is going to come up for an extension next year.
That is a tax scam, where 82 percent of the benefit went to the richest, wealthiest people. Working people got crumbs. It was the time when the Trump -- when Donald Trump was actually the most unpopular, was in the midst of that tax scam.
COLLINS: Yes.
JAYAPAL: And so, we'll have a chance to showcase exactly who's going to stand up. And I hope Democrats, up and down the ballot, take lessons from this, in terms of, really pushing--
COLLINS: Yes.
JAYAPAL: --for strong economic issues.
COLLINS: But on the -- when you look at the results, I mean, is there any part of you that thinks -- you know, we were just talking about immigration, there. Trump's views, and who he was going to put in place, was quite clear. It wasn't any kind of mystery before this.
Is there any part of you that looks at what happened and says, a lot of Americans agree with what he made clear he was going to do.
JAYAPAL: Well actually, Kaitlan, I was in swing states, every weekend, for six weekends, before the election, and talking to voters on the doors.
And when immigration came up, it was really a sense of frustration amongst everybody that the broken system that people know is there, hasn't been updated in 30 years. There are all kinds of challenges. People can't get processed quickly enough. The broken system has not been fixed.
And what I think, even if you look at polling today, despite the very xenophobic comments against immigrants, what you will see is that voters want a solution. They want this thing to be fixed.
They don't want cruelty, which is exactly why in the first Trump administration, when Tom Homan engineered, as you reminded people, the zero-tolerance policy, separating kids from their parents, people did not want it. He was forced to end that policy. Donald Trump was forced to end that policy. So people don't want cruelty. They want the system to be fixed.
COLLINS: Yes.
JAYAPAL: And they're frustrated with us, in Congress, because these are not state fixes. This has to be done, federally. And Trump and Republicans have consistently pushed back against fixing it. We are going to have to convince people-- COLLINS: Yes.
JAYAPAL: --that we are ready to take on the system to fix it.
COLLINS: Yes, you're referencing the bipartisan border deal that failed a few months ago.
[21:50:00]
Another part, touchdown of this campaign was an ad from the Trump campaign that they put out on transgender rights. It was, you know, made the issue -- put the issue, at the middle of the race, in some moments.
And I know, you've noted in the past that you are proudly the parent of a daughter, who is transgender, and you've made tearful appeals, to your colleagues, when this issue has come up on Capitol Hill.
And so, I wonder then what your response was, to Congressman Seth Moulton, who suggested this week that Democrats need to change their approach to transgender issues.
He told The New York Times, and I'm quoting him now, "Democrats spend way too much time trying not to offend anyone rather than being brutally honest about the challenges many Americans face." He said, "I have two little girls, I don't want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete, but as a Democrat I'm supposed to be afraid to say that."
JAYAPAL: I just find that to be an offensive comment, actually. We're talking about half of 1 percent of people in the country.
And I think that we have to really be clear. There was one party that tried to initiate a culture war, a so-called culture war, against a tiny group of people. That was the Republican Party that poured billions of dollars into this.
I go back to the fact that we can have an economic agenda that allows people to feel good and safe about their lives, and that is inclusive, so that everybody gets to live their life out. I don't think that just trying to instill fear, and joining a party that is instilling fear in (ph) people, for a tiny, tiny group of population, group of people that we're talking about, is the right way to go about this.
Let's go back to our business. Let's get that economic agenda, which we actually know what it is. We've had a proposition agenda at the CPC, for some time, and it includes all of these things, including taking on these big corporate monopolies, taking on price gouging, rate -- you know, investing in housing.
These are critical things that will lift people up, in addition, of course, to minimum wage, paid sick leave, the things that passed on the ballot in Trump states. We can get those done.
But we need people to trust us, and we need to actually fight for them, and be willing to unrig the system. Because it is rigged, right now, for the billionaires and the wealthiest individuals and corporations. We've got to take that on, and be willing to do it loudly and proudly.
COLLINS: Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, thank you.
JAYAPAL: Thank you.
COLLINS: And thanks for answering a question on a personal note there as well.
JAYAPAL: Thank you.
COLLINS: In less than 48 hours, I should note, we'll be following something, a meeting, very closely here on CNN. President Biden is going to come face-to-face with President-Elect Donald Trump, not here in Palm Beach, but instead in Washington at the White House.
Melania Trump, though, has not accepted an invite from first lady, Jill Biden. Our new reporting on that next.
[21:55:00]
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COLLINS: Thanks, but maybe no thanks. Sources are telling CNN tonight that former first lady Melania Trump, and incoming first lady, is expected to RSVP no, to a White House sit-down with first lady Jill Biden, this Wednesday, as their husbands are set to meet in the Oval Office.
Kate Bennett is my inside source, on all things Melania Trump always. And she is the Author of "Free, Melania: The Unauthorized Biography." And she joins me now.
And Kate, our friend, Betsy Klein, was reporting tonight that one person was saying, there was a scheduling conflict, as to why she wasn't going.
I mean, you know how to read between the lines, of Melania Trump, maybe better than anyone else. What do you think is going on here?
KATE BENNETT, AUTHOR, "FREE, MELANIA," CNN FORMER WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I mean, listen, I think it's a reflection of just how divisive this campaign season, this election, the relationship between the Democrats and Republicans, has gotten.
And I think it's really a sad, sad state of affairs, when Melania Trump, who's so adhered to protocol, was a real rule-follower when it came to traditions, would not go and have or will not, or may not go and have the traditional tea with Dr. Biden at the White House.
A long-standing tradition that goes back, at least through modern American political history, where no matter how much of a battlefield the campaign was, between their husbands, there's always a detente, to talk about how one first lady sort of passes the torch to the next. There's logistical conversations. There's how do we move the family in? Yes, yes, Melanie Trump has been there before. This will be her second go-around. But still, just from a traditional standpoint, burying the hatchet, like moving forward, it would really be a nice gesture if she were to go.
COLLINS: Well, and obviously, when she was incoming, Michelle Obama hosted her at the White House. We saw Obama and Trump meet, obviously on-camera.
And you're right, it has been a very obviously ugly, ugly campaign season. But, I mean, Trump and Biden are sitting down, and it's hard to really think of a more acrimonious relationship than that one.
BENNETT: Exactly. And it's very sad to sort of see this tradition die.
Now, we know that Michelle Obama, afterwards, talked about the visit at the Inauguration Day, of Melania Trump, bringing that gift to the front door of the White House, and how awkward that was.
And before that, Laura Bush, Michelle Obama. Barbara Bush didn't particularly get along with Hillary Clinton and -- but she still showed her the secret window through the East Wing dressing room, where you can look through across the Rose Garden, and see into the Oval Office.
I mean, these are the moments that really capture the basis of American democracy, as one presidency shifts to another. And of course, the last few elections, couple elections, we've seen that whole dynamic shift across the board, and this is just a reflection of that.
[22:00:00]
But yes, of course, I think it's up to the first lady. And typically, it was for Melania Trump, during her tenure, to say different things than her husband, to do what she felt was right to do. We watched that many times. So, it will be a shame and a real disparity, to the administration, if she does not accept Dr. Biden's invitation, and go to the White House.
COLLINS: Yes, and it does not sound like she's poised to do so.
Kate Bennett, as always, thank you.
BENNETT: Thank you.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much for joining us, on a very busy night, from West Palm Beach.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
