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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Taps Matt Gaetz For Attorney General; Sen. Duckworth: Trump's Defense Pick Is "Beyond Ridiculous"; Sources: Trump Considering Todd Blanche As Deputy Attorney General. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 13, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Sheriff's office says, deputies later discovered that Canadian officials ran Borgwardt's passport, the day after he was reported missing.
SHERIFF MARK PODOLL, GREEN LAKE COUNTY: Due to these discoveries of the new evidence, we were sure that Ryan was not in our lake.
WILD (voice-over): Podoll says they don't know who the woman in Uzbekistan is. But they believe Borgwardt is likely in Eastern Europe. His department is also investigating if any crimes were committed, and if anyone assisted. No charges have been filed.
In the meantime, Podoll has a message for Borgwardt.
PODOLL: Get ahold of us. Get ahold of us, and let us know that you're OK. People forgive. But it's important that we'll get him back here.
WILD (voice-over): Whitney Wild, CNN, Chicago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Well, that's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Trump is back, and so is the shock and drama that follows him. The President-Elect in the nation's capital today, the first time since the election, where his latest cabinet picks are sending shockwaves through Capitol Hill, with even some Republicans privately asking, Really?
I'm Kaitlan Collins, live from Washington. And this is THE SOURCE.
Matt Gaetz as Attorney General. Tulsi Gabbard as the Director of National Intelligence. And Pete Hegseth as the Secretary of Defense. The shockwaves from those cabinet selections are still reverberating here in Washington tonight, where gas could be audibly heard, on Capitol Hill, after the President-Elect posted on social media that he was picking one of his fiercest loyalists, and one of the Justice Department's biggest critics, and at one point, the subject of one of its investigations, as his choice for the nation's top law enforcement official.
Now, Gaetz denied wrongdoing, and was never charged by the Justice Department, in that federal sex trafficking probe. But he remains under investigation by -- former -- sexual misconduct by the House Ethics Committee. That is until he resigned from the House, tonight, according to Speaker Mike Johnson.
Republicans on the Hill seemed unsure of how to respond, at times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Well, it's an interesting pick. Highly loyal to President Trump. Again, I don't know enough about him, in terms of his ethic charges, and that's why I say it's a somewhat interesting pick. We'll have to see how that all unfolds.
REP. BYRON DONALDS (R-FL): If you want to clean out the Department of Justice, this is who you want.
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): The President has the prerogative to nominate who he wishes.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): I was shocked that he has been nominated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I reported here, last night, that Trump had been wrestling with his decision, for one of the jobs that he cares the most about, in his second term. Wanting someone who is not only a loyalist, but also willing to carry out his agenda at the Justice Department. Purging career employees, getting retribution against his political opponents. He passed over several more conventional names that he had been considering, and potentially smoother confirmations.
And I have some brand-new reporting, tonight, on what the Justice Department leadership could look like under Trump. I can report tonight that the President-Elect is seriously considering naming his lead attorney, Todd Blanche, to serve as the next Deputy Attorney General.
Now, nothing has been finalized or announced, I should note.
But Blanche is a former federal prosecutor, who has now represented Trump, for the last 18 months or so, including during his criminal hush money trial, earlier this year, in New York. Trump and Blanche have grown close, and in that time and because of Trump's trust in him, it was widely expected inside Trump's inner circle that if he won, Blanche would likely follow him into the federal government.
If Blanche is ultimately nominated here, he would need to be confirmed by the Senate, before running the department that is one of the most prioritized by Donald Trump. And tonight, certainly one of the most controversial.
I want to get straight to Capitol Hill, this hour, where CNN's Chief Congressional Correspondent, Manu Raju, is working his sources.
Manu, what else are you hearing, specifically, from the people who are actually going to need to confirm Matt Gaetz as the Attorney General?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Gaetz has a tough road ahead, if he wants to get confirmed by the United States Senate.
Remember, Republicans in the new majority, will have at most 53 seats, assuming the Pennsylvania race, which is in a recount, goes that way. That means they can only lose three Republican votes, on a party-line vote.
And there are far more than three Republicans who are concerned. One of them, Senator Lisa Murkowski, told me that he is an unserious candidate. Other ones very much withholding their support, including Senator John Cornyn of Texas.
And people on the Senate Judiciary Committee did not want to weigh in at all. One senator, John Kennedy, told me, Happy Thanksgiving, when I asked him if he's going to support Matt Gaetz.
And it's very clear that they're concerned about Gaetz's role to oust Kevin McCarthy from the speakership, his defense of Donald Trump on virtually almost everything, and this House ethics investigation into him into sexual misconduct allegations, allegations he's denied, which is why a lot of Republicans were concerned or non-committal.
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SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): I didn't like the way he handled the squabble with Speaker McCarthy. I think it was -- I thought it was unnecessary. I thought it was divisive.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I don't know yet. And I'd think about that one.
RAJU: I mean, do you have any concerns about it?
GRAHAM: We'll see.
REP. NICK LALOTA (R-NY): Sure is going to be an interesting confirmation hearing, as is I think most members predictions.
RAJU: Would you -- would you think he's an inappropriate (ph) pick?
LALOTA: Yes, he was not in anybody's top five 5, 10, or even 50 lists, of the folks who I was speaking to.
RAJU: Because, you know, he's under investigation by House Ethics. Is it appropriate to name someone for the Attorney General job, who's under investigation.
LALOTA: I think a lot of people are eager to see the results of that investigation, Manu.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Now, sources tell me, and my colleague, Sarah Ferris, that the House Ethics Committee was set to meet and vote, as soon as Friday, to release its ethics report on Matt Gaetz. But now that he was resigned, that has essentially scuttled that investigation into it. Now, can that information go public? That is still a bit of an open question, at this moment, Kaitlan.
But one reason why that has been delayed, for this so long, is that the Ethics Committee, we are told, couldn't release that information earlier, because it was so close to an election, so they waited for after the election.
But now that Gaetz suddenly and abruptly resigned throws all that into question, raising more questions about Matt Gaetz and whether he can even get confirmed by the Senate.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: All right, Manu, keep us updated with what you're hearing on Capitol Hill.
I've got my political sources here at the table with me tonight.
Karen Finney is the former communications director for the Democratic National Committee.
Sarah Matthews, former Trump Deputy Press Secretary, now Trump critic, I should note.
And Bill Stepien, who was Trump's 2020 campaign manager.
It's great to have you all here.
Sarah, just what was your thought when you saw this play out today?
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY FOR PRES. TRUMP: There's not a lot that surprises me anymore, when it comes to Donald Trump.
I will say, this pick did shock me a little bit. But then again, I look back on what he ran on, in his 2024 campaign, who knows all about retribution. And so, of course, he's going to pick someone like Matt Gaetz to lead the Department of Justice, because he doesn't want an independent Department of Justice. He wants it to do his bidding. And so, someone like Matt Gaetz would be willing to do that.
And what I will say, though, is that this is going to be an uphill battle for Senate confirmation. He is loathed on Capitol Hill, and I can't stress that enough. His colleagues in the House do not like him.
You saw even when Markwayne Mullin, who now serves in the Senate, and will be voting on this confirmation. When he was in the House, so, and served with him. He has been said, on this network, I believe, it was Manu who did an interview with him, on the steps of the Hill. He said things like that Matt Gaetz would show his House colleagues, videos of him.
COLLINS: Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because I actually have that, because that stood out to me too.
I just want -- I want people to listen to what you're talking about, what Senator Mullin said there, but also what he told Jake Tapper today about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): This is a guy that didn't have -- the media didn't give a time a day to, after he was accused of sleeping with an underage girl. And there's a reason why no one in the Conference came and defended him. Because we had all seen the videos he was showing on the House floor that all of us had walked away, of the girls that he had slept with. He'd brag about how he would crush ED medicine, and chase it with an energy drink, so he could go all night.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Are you going to vote for Matt Gaetz?
MULLIN: You know, Matt Gaetz and I, there's no question that we've had our differences. They've been very public about it. I completely trust President Trump's decision-making on this one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, that is quite a change for -- I checked the dates. That was last year that he had made those comments.
MATTHEWS: Yes, exactly. So, this kind of, I think, shows how many senators were going to see cave, and do this, even though they privately know that Matt Gaetz is someone, who is unfit and unqualified to serve in such an important role.
But then, I am looking to some senators, who I think might see that, that this is a dangerous path that we would be headed toward, if we put him in this role. I look to people like Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins. Even Mitch McConnell. I mean, what does he have to lose at this point? I think that Todd Young, the list goes on.
I think there are some principled senators, who know that this would be a mistake. And so maybe, maybe there's a chance that he doesn't get confirmed.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISER, HILLARY CLINTON'S 2016 CAMPAIGN: I am trying to be very Zen about this whole thing. And I sort of, I'm like, You know what, Donald Trump? Let's get the full Donald Trump. Be all you can be. Full crazy. Let's do it. Let America have it. This is what you voted for. This is what you deserve. Let's see how this shakes out. I mean, look, the -- obviously, the confirmation hearings will be very interesting. I mean, lots of interesting questions, potentially for Matt Gaetz, or someone like RFK Jr., should he get a cabinet post.
And lots of questions have been raised about a number of different people, who have already been -- who've been named thus far, including Secretary of Defense, given things that Donald Trump has said in the past, about how he would use American troops on American soil.
So, I think all of this should come out in the course of these confirmation hearings, and let people see that Donald Trump is making good on what he said he would do.
COLLINS: Yes. And I should note, he has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing, including over the allegations about having sex with a minor, or paying for sex.
But Bill, when you look at this. I mean, you worked for Trump, and ran his 2020 campaign. There are 53 Republican senators. They are willing to do a lot for Trump.
BILL STEPIEN, TRUMP'S 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Sure.
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COLLINS: And pretty much confirm almost anyone. But it seems like even he is testing the limits of that tonight. Is he not?
STEPIEN: I don't know where this goes or how it goes. What I know is that eight years ago, I was in Trump Tower, as people from D.C. started to funnel up the elevators. And all I heard was, Sir, this is how we do it in D.C. This is how the system works. You can't do that. Sir, sir, sir.
This is him laying down a marker, eight years later, saying, I'm in charge. I'm done being told. I tell. You didn't win 312 electoral votes, last week. I did. I'm in charge. And here we are.
COLLINS: So, do you think that all of these picks can get confirmed? Because of that?
STEPIEN: There's a process, and time will tell. I mean, we see Senator Mullin, you saw two different statements from him, that were quite different. He's in the Senate. It's a deliberative process. A body that is aims to -- it aims to consider these nominees. They take that process very seriously. Time will tell.
MATTHEWS: I will say, to Bill's point, I do believe that Trump does have a mandate, sure. But he wins the popular vote, 312 electoral votes.
But at the same time, I think a lot of Americans put him into this position, to be the next president, because they were upset about things like the border, like inflation. Those are the issues that they want him focused on, not putting in extremist people, into positions of power, like Matt Gaetz as attorney general. And I do think, though, that yes, he'll have every right to do that. But I am hopeful that the -- I think there are senators out there, like John Fetterman, who recognized that some of Trump's other cabinet nominees are people who are qualified, like a Ratcliffe at CIA, or Rubio at Secretary of State, and they'll be willing to go along with those nominees. But this might be a bridge too far.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, I remember when John Ratcliffe, who, maybe no one has even mentioned again, since he was picked to be CIA. When he was nominated for Director of National Intelligence, in the first term, there was this huge fight. They had to pull his confirmation.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Then Trump put Ric Grenell in. And then, all of a sudden, the senators were like, OK, maybe we'll take another look at John Ratcliffe.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, how do Democrats deal with this?
FINNEY: Look, I think they're going to have to pick their spots, right? Because there will be certain positions, where it is worth it to go to the mattresses, have the fight, and others where, they're not going to want to be seen as trying to block all of his potential nominees.
But I'll tell you what's also interesting, if you kind of look at what is becoming a cast of characters. Many of these folks are Fox News darlings.
And part of me, just given the way Trump thinks about sort of the out -- the brand, it's like he's programming television. The way he is putting different people in different positions, it's like we're going to have the sort of Fox News stars, on our televisions, for the next four years, as they defend and talk about going forward.
STEPIEN: Let's not forget that this city is not the real world. The halls of Congress are -- it's not the real -- that's not -- it's not America, right? Last week, Matt Gaetz faced reelection, in a Republican district, for sure. Plus 19. He didn't win by 19 points or 20 points. He won by 32, OK? Overwhelming number reelected.
So, people in the halls of Congress may not like Matt Gaetz. He doesn't play their games. But the people back home--
COLLINS: But can I ask on that--
STEPIEN: --they just sent him back.
COLLINS: Because I think you have a point about Trump having a mandate. I mean, Trump made very clear what he was going to do in a second term. It's not like he was hiding a lot of this.
But on that, what I've heard from people is about how important his first 100 days, six months, certainly two years, with this Republican- controlled Washington, are going to be.
Is he putting in qualified people to help make that a successful 100 days, if it's Pete Hegseth at the Defense Department, Tulsi Gabbard as DNI?
STEPIEN: I think he learned, eight years later, that the first two years are a lot more important than the last two. I think he eventually got his people in place, in the last two years.
He understands, I have four years here. I don't have eight, potentially, I have four. I got to get moving. I want my people in place on day one. That's what we're seeing here.
COLLINS: Well we'll see if they get confirmed.
Bill Stepien, great to have you. Karen Finney, Sarah Matthews, as well.
Up next, tonight. We're going to get perspective from a Republican senator, on that very question, Trump's pick so far.
We're also going to talk to Senator Tammy Duckworth. She served in Iraq. She was among the first women to fly in combat. She lost both of her legs, when her helicopter was hit by an RPG. So, what does she think of Trump's Defense Secretary pick, saying that women should not be in combat. I'm going to ask her.
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COLLINS: One defense official is telling CNN tonight that quote, Everyone is shocked by Donald Trump's choice to run the Pentagon.
In his first term, remember, Trump went with four-star General James Mattis. And then, Army Secretary, Mark Esper.
This time around, as he prepares for his second, he has now tapped an Army veteran with two Bronze Stars, turned outspoken Fox News host. His name is Pete Hegseth. And he has said previously that he does not believe women should serve in combat, and he's also been quite clear about the changes he'd like to see at the top of the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, TRUMP'S DEFENSE SECRETARY PICK: I'm straight-up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn't made us more effective. Hasn't made us more lethal. Has made fighting more complicated.
Well, first of all, you got to fire, you know, got to fire the Chairman of Joint Chiefs, and you got to fire this -- I mean, obviously, you're going to bring in a new Secretary of Defense. But any General that was involved, General, Admiral, whatever that was involved, in any of the DEI woke shit, it's got to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my inside source tonight is the Democratic senator of Illinois, who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Senator Tammy Duckworth.
And Senator, it's great to have you here.
[21:20:00]
But because you sit on that committee, you'll likely get the chance to question Pete Hegseth. I say likely, because if Trump is doing recess appointments, he could just appoint him unilaterally. But if you do get the chance to question him, what do you plan on asking him?
SEN. TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): Well, look, he's not qualified to serve as Secretary of Defense. And obviously, he's made these comments about how he doesn't think women should be in combat, and that he wants to be able to fire the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I'd ask him, how does that strengthen our nation's military?
We can't go to war today without our women military members. And yet, he wants to gut the military, at a time when we have a significant recruiting crisis. Again, I mean, it's beyond ridiculous that he's being nominated.
COLLINS: And there are millions of women, who have served in the U.S. military, as you know, as someone who has not only served. But you're also someone whose helicopter was hit by an RPG. You lost your legs and partial use of your right arm, because of it.
What was -- what did go through your mind, as a woman, who has served, when you heard him saying that women should not be in combat roles?
DUCKWORTH: Well, that he is -- he's shown that his absolutely -- absolute lack of experience, and his lack of suitability for the job.
Because anybody that truly knows the military knows that we cannot go to war without over 225,000 women, who are serving on active-duty right now. Our military cannot go to war without our female service members. This is not the Revolutionary War, where there's some sort of a line in the sand, and combat is on one side, and the rest of us can stay behind the sand. And that's not combat.
I would ask him, Where do you think I lost my legs? In a bar fight? I'm pretty sure I was in combat, when that happened. And it just shows how out of touch he is, with the nature of modern warfare, if he thinks that we can keep women behind some sort of imaginary line, which is not the way warfare is, today.
COLLINS: And you mentioned what he said about the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. That's General CQ Brown. Points he has implied that he was only hired to that role because -- he was only given and nominated to that position because he is Black.
I should note that General Brown is an Air Force fighter pilot, who has a 130 combat flying hours, 40 years of service. Do you think he'd actually be able to get him fired? I mean, what would -- what would it look like at the Pentagon, do you think, if Pete Hegseth is confirmed as the Secretary?
DUCKWORTH: Oh, I think that, I mean, the morale would plummet. I think you would see a mass exodus of professional military officers, and I think that we would face a hollowing-out of our military. It is absolutely alarming, what would happen, if you have somebody like that appointed as Secretary of Defense.
And again, General Brown is more than well-qualified to serve. And frankly, it is astonishing that you've got Donald Trump, a guy who is a five-time draft-dodger, I call him Cadet Bone Spurs, would nominate someone so wholly unqualified for the job.
COLLINS: Speaking of nominations that we've gotten, a flurry of them today.
And it was more than a decade ago, you and Tulsi Gabbard came to Congress together. Both female Iraq war veterans. You sponsored legislation together. You appeared together, pushing initiatives on CNN, at times.
When you see that she has been nominated as the Director of National Intelligence, would you vote yes on that?
DUCKWORTH: No, because she's not qualified. She is yet another person along the line. I mean, just within the last 24 hours, a number of unqualified individuals that Donald Trump has nominated to very important positions, in our government, is astonishing.
She does not have that national intelligence experience. She was a medical records clerk in Iraq, as an E4. That's below the rank of sergeant. She does not have that military -- that intelligence experience, so I'm not quite sure how she's qualified to be the Director of National Intelligence.
She's a very nice person, and obviously has a -- positioned herself very close to Donald Trump. But perhaps that is what you need to do, in order to get a nomination in this future administration.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, you're arguing, you don't think Pete Hegseth is qualified for DOD. You don't think Tulsi Gabbard is qualified for the Director of National Intelligence.
He also announced that he is going to nominate Florida congressman, Matt Gaetz, as his Attorney General. Do you believe that he is qualified for that position?
DUCKWORTH: So, you're talking about someone who is under invest -- who was under investigation for child sex trafficking, whose best friend is in jail for sexual crimes.
So now, we have a Commander-in-Chief, who's been convicted of harassing a sexual assault victim, nominating somebody who has been investigated for child sex trafficking, to be Attorney General. Again, this is astonishing how poor these nominations coming from Donald Trump are.
COLLINS: What happens if all of these people get confirmed, though?
[21:25:00]
Because one, he's trying to do either recess appointments, where Trump would just be able to sidestep the Senate totally here. But if not, I mean, there are 53 Republican senators. So far, I haven't seen any of them say no, to voting on any of those three candidates that I just mentioned.
I mean, what happens if Pete Hegseth is the Defense Secretary, if Tulsi Gabbard is the Director of National Intelligence, if Matt Gaetz is the Attorney General?
DUCKWORTH: Well, you are going to see a national intelligence apparatus, and a military and national security system, that will be absolutely gutted. You're going to lose professional officers, professional analysts. People are going to leave government. And you're going to see that Americans will be more vulnerable, both here, at home and abroad.
You're going to see our adversaries taking advantage of this, the Communist Chinese government, the terror-supporting Iranian regime, the dictator, Putin, dictators in North Korea, all of these folks are just rubbing their hands with glee, waiting to take on America. And you will see that we will be less safe as a nation, thanks to Donald Trump.
COLLINS: Those are stern warnings from you. Senator Tammy Duckworth, thank you for your service, and thank you for your time.
DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. We turn to a Senate Republican here. Would he vote to confirm Trump's picks? We'll speak about that.
Plus, more on that new reporting from me this hour. Trump's lead attorney, Todd Blanche, now under consideration to be Deputy Attorney General. More ahead.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're hearing from some Republican senators, tonight, making it clear that they will be on board with whomever Donald Trump nominates.
Alabama senator, Tommy Tuberville, said, quote, it ought to blow us all up if any Republican votes against confirming Matt Gaetz as Attorney General.
Missouri's senator, Josh Hawley, told CNN, quote, I will support all of the President's nominees.
My Republican source tonight is Tennessee senator, Bill Hagerty.
Welcome back to the show. It's great to have you.
SEN. BILL HAGERTY (R-TN): It's good to be back with you.
COLLINS: What's your view on that? Will you vote -- do you think Matt Gaetz is qualified? Will you vote to confirm him as Attorney General?
HAGERTY: I know Matt. And I understand that there are a lot of questions that have been raised, just in the moment that he's been nominated by President Trump.
But President Trump is fully entitled to put forward whomever he wants, particularly when you think about this Department of Justice. I mean, think about what President Trump went through in his first term, the entire Russiagate hoax. That was a Democrat-funded dossier, a fake dossier, that went years of investigation, wasting millions of dollars with Mueller.
If you think about the -- I think it was probably the dirty trick of the century, when Tony Blinken put together this letter with 51 so- called intelligence experts that said that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. And then, they used the FBI to go out and basically pre-bunk it, going to social media outlets, like Facebook, and saying, This Russian disinformation is going to come forward. They used it to suppress this information, and affect the outcome of an election. This was a huge misuse of the DOJ.
When President Trump was in office, and then if you think about what's happened since then, the DOJ has been abused, to go after President Biden's number one opponent.
Think about moms and dads at school board meetings that have been harassed by federal agents, because of this DOJ.
The DOJ's failure to enforce the U.S. Code, when people are marching on the houses of Supreme Court justices to intimidate them.
I mean, this is a highly political, partisan DOJ.
COLLINS: So, you--
HAGERTY: And I think President Trump is entitled to put in place, the change agent that he wants to do it.
COLLINS: So that means yes, you will be voting yes on him?
HAGERTY: I certainly want to go through the process and see all of the -- see the entire process through.
COLLINS: OK. But you're not ready to say yes or no, tonight?
HAGERTY: No, I'm ready to say we need to -- President Trump's entitled to put forward whom he wants, and we need to give them a full and fair hearing.
COLLINS: OK. So, you'd like--
HAGERTY: That's the advice and consent role of the U.S. Senate.
COLLINS: You'd like there to be a hearing.
Does it give you any pause, the House ethics investigation--
HAGERTY: And actually I heard my--
COLLINS: --that was underway?
HAGERTY: Pardon?
COLLINS: Does the House ethics investigation give you any pause, on how you may vote on this?
HAGERTY: I have not paid attention to this, until just this evening, when I heard about it. I'm not familiar with the House ethics investigation, except that there must be something underway.
COLLINS: Yes. But does it give you any pause?
HAGERTY: I think everybody wants to see the entirety of the facts come forward, as somebody goes through confirmation. I've gone through confirmation myself. I've also gone through Democrat resistance. I was held for 30 hours of floor time to go through this. They filibustered me. So, we've got to go through the process here. That's essential.
COLLINS: When you were ambassador.
But you'd like there to be a hearing. So does that mean you don't believe that Attorney General -- the Attorney General nominee, should be appointed in a recess appointment, which would basically sidestep your role, and the Senate's role, in vetting these nominees.
HAGERTY: It depends on whether the Democrats escalate to that point. If the Democrats continue to frustrate, and the things that they did to me, if that happens en masse here, which it sounds like it may? Then I think President Trump deserves every option to get his cabinet appointed.
COLLINS: But would you be OK with someone being put in at the Justice Department, without first having a proper vetting by even Republicans being able to ask questions?
HAGERTY: Look, I would prefer that to begin -- again, the Democrats changed the rules on us when President Trump came into office, the first time. This resistance movement was very real. I was subjected to it.
And President Trump is entitled to get his appointees in. We've used recess appointments under President -- President Clinton, President Bush, President Obama.
COLLINS: Yes.
HAGERTY: It's constitutionally allowed.
COLLINS: Well, and of course, we've seen Republicans also stymie people from getting confirmed. We saw that with Tommy Tuberville, and the Pentagon, and top officials there.
But for you personally, would you be only comfortable, if someone is running the Justice Department, if they have had a proper confirmation hearing, to where you've been able to hear maybe what is in that House ethics investigation or the other reports.
HAGERTY: I would prefer going through a normal process, a regular process that allows the full hearing, and allows the advice and consent.
[21:35:00]
But I'll tell you this. The Democrats have consistently blocked and obfuscated the process. And if we get to that point, I'm going to favor President Trump putting his people into office, and I would -- I would favor that.
COLLINS: Do you think, if there is a confirmation hearing, that there is anything you could hear or learn that would maybe change your mind and make you vote no, on one of Trump's appointees?
HAGERTY: That would be the case with anybody coming forward.
I've been through the process. It's extensive. There's a lot of digging and a lot of disclosure that goes forward. And we'll just have to see. As I said, I've been through it. It took months. Tens of thousands of dollars of legal fees to do this. It's not easy. There's a reason it's not easy. These are important jobs.
COLLINS: So, you agree with the vetting process in that sense?
HAGERTY: Of course.
COLLINS: Because the reason the Senate has this, obviously, is so you can make sure people, who are unfit for office are not in these huge jobs. That's the Senate's constitutional role that it has here. And given you've personally been through that, you're underlining the importance of it.
When we're hearing from some Republicans, who say, We should be willing to confirm all of Trump's nominees. You're saying, We should have the confirmation hearing and hear it out first.
HAGERTY: I think that's -- I think President Trump is entitled to have these hearings. He's entitled to go through a normal process of nominating, going through the advice and consent, and that's providing the credibility that that gives to his appointees.
COLLINS: Well, I guess I asked, because he's the one who suggested that anyone who is the Republican leader for the Senate, which John Thune won that election today, be open to recess appointments, which would allow him to sidestep. HAGERTY: But that's absolutely appropriate, when Democrats, if Democrats, escalate to the point that we have to move in that direction. It's a trade-off, right? If they want to allow us to have the advice and consent process, let's do it. But if they're going to frustrate it and obfuscate it, then we're going to have to go to recess appointments.
COLLINS: But you prefer--
HAGERTY: I agree with President Trump.
COLLINS: --a confirmation hearing?
HAGERTY: Certainly.
COLLINS: Senator Bill Hagerty, who has been through a confirmation hearing, thank you very much.
HAGERTY: Thank you very much, Kaitlan. Good to be with you.
COLLINS: Up next. What the Justice Department could look like, if he is confirmed by the Senate. We have three great legal minds, who are here, on that bombshell pick today.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: If Trump's pick for attorney general is confirmed by the Senate, of course, a big if tonight, they will have a long to-do list, including ending weaponized government, Trump's words, protecting the border, dismantling criminal organizations, rooting out corruption at the Justice Department, and fighting crime.
And I have new reporting, tonight, on who Trump may install in the second highest position there at the DOJ. I'm told Trump is seriously considering naming his lead attorney that you may recognize, from his criminal cases, who represents him there, Todd Blanche, to serve as the next Deputy Attorney General. Though, I should note tonight, nothing has been finalized.
My legal sources are here. A pair of former federal prosecutors, in Elie Honig and Elliot Williams.
And also, the conservative attorney, who was once actually, if you can remember that far back, considered by Trump, to be his Solicitor General, the number three at the Justice Department. Now, outspoken Trump critic. George Conway. That was a very long introduction.
George?
GEORGE CONWAY, ATTORNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Your thoughts?
CONWAY: I -- you know, everybody's, like, shocked, surprised. There's nothing surprising about this. This is -- Matt Gaetz, in a lot
of ways, is the perfect attorney general for Donald Trump. OK? I mean, we have a criminal, convicted criminal, who's a president, who has been adjudicated to engaged in sexual abuse. So why not select a guy who has been loyal to him, and who wants to seek revenge, in the same way Donald Trump does, and who is -- you know, was accused of sex trafficking.
It's, he's the perfect choice. So I don't know why everybody's surprised.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: And the interesting thing about is that, it sort of dispenses any pretense of respect for the institution, right?
And there's any number of picks that the former, and I guess, soon-to- be President, could have put in place that would have at least respected, number one, the people who work there, and number two, the very enterprise of prosecuting people.
CONWAY: He doesn't care about that.
WILLIAMS: Well, that's my point, George. It's--
CONWAY: Well, that's been a lot of our points.
WILLIAMS: But yes, no, I mean, we're all in agreement here. Let's be clear.
But I just, you know, it's just fascinating, because I feel like -- I worked for four different attorneys general, two Democrats, two Republicans, vastly different people. John Ashcroft to Loretta Lynch, nothing in common whatsoever. They all respected the work of the institution, even in their policy differences.
And what you have here is somebody, who literally has contempt, not just for the body of the Justice Department, but the people who work there.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Let me just--
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, Elie, can I just also say--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --before you make your point.
I read that if he has confirmed, he would be the first attorney general, in four decades, that has never been a government attorney, or a judge, before this. So, it's not even just everything that we talked about. It's also the experience question that the other nominees have faced as well.
HONIG: It's such an important point about the utter lack of qualifications. I mean, Matt Gaetz is aggressively unqualified, for this position. He's never been a prosecutor. He's never really practiced law, at any big-time level. He has no idea what it means--
WILLIAMS: Well--
HONIG: --to stand up in a court, and to represent the United States, and to try to take away someone's liberty.
And I do want to underscore the stakes here. When you're talking about the Attorney General of the United States, this person is in charge of 110,000 employees, 94 U.S. Attorneys Offices, the entire FBI, the entire DEA, the entire ATF, the Solicitor General who handles all the Supreme Court litigation for the government, the U.S. Marshals, the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
CONWAY: This is a man, who probably, he certainly couldn't be hired as an assistant United States attorney, in any major district. He probably couldn't be hired as a paralegal. He probably wouldn't even pass a background check.
WILLIAMS: Well, I think a better way to think about it -- you know, I have to disagree with you, Elie, that he doesn't have experience. He certainly does have experience with the Justice Department.
HONIG: Oh.
WILLIAMS: It's just simply being investigated for sex crimes.
HONIG: Right.
WILLIAMS: Now, this is not a serious pick. And again, we -- and I want to be -- and I want to get back to the bipartisan question. It's--
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: And just to note, he did deny that.
WILLIAMS: He denied it. He denied it.
COLLINS: He was never charged.
WILLIAMS: He was never charged. A close associate of his was. But yes -- was. But no, he was never charged with a crime. Look--
CONWAY: No, but he did -- he did show pictures of naked women, on the House floor, to one of his colleagues.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
CONWAY: I think there was some clip on -- about that earlier. And he talked about how he put Viagra in his--
WILLIAMS: And--
CONWAY: --in his energy drink, and bragged about that--
WILLIAMS: Sure.
CONWAY: --on the House floor.
COLLINS: But can we talk about what would -- what would happen?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: Because this is a question -- Tammy Duckworth was talking about what would happen at the Pentagon, if Pete Hegseth is confirmed there, she thinks. I mean, the idea that there would be maybe mass resignations, at the DOJ, if this happens. I mean, the Trump team might look at that and say, OK, great.
Look, in the first time -- the first term, Trump would have feared that, and the backlash.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: But I think this time they'd be like, OK, we're fine with that.
WILLIAMS: Yes, I think that's a little bit overblown. I mean, look, people come and go. Republican presidents come and go. Democratic presidents come and go. People stay.
And of these 110,000 people that Elie talked about, most of them have been there throughout administrations. Now, look, there are people in some positions, who might be turned off by a particular administration, and want to leave. But I think that this notion of people leaving the Justice Department en masse, I think, is a little bit overblown.
HONIG: And to your reporting, Kaitlan, about Todd Blanche being considered for Deputy A.G., right?
COLLINS: Who is a former federal prosecutor, came from Southern District of New York.
HONIG: With me, yes.
CONWAY: He's a real lawyer.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: So, you obviously know him.
HONIG: He's a real lawyer.
COLLINS: What do you make of that consideration? It's not final yet.
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: But I'm told Trump is very seriously considering doing so.
HONIG: That is as good a pick as you're going to get for Deputy A.G. And Deputy A.G. is the workhorse. Deputy A.G. really runs the show. The A.G. is sort of the show pony. Todd is a real lawyer. Everyone knows him from the hush money trial, on the defense side, where I think he did a capable job. I had some criticisms of what he did. But I think he did a good job. But he grew up in the U.S. Attorney's Office, the Southern District of New York. He understands the principles.
And I think if we -- I don't think -- look, I'm not the political guy. But I don't think Gaetz is going to get through. But if we get a subpar A.G., ultimately, you're going to need a really good deputy to babysit that person.
CONWAY: I mean, you're probably right, he's not going to get through.
HONIG: Yes.
CONWAY: Gaetz is not going to get through. But you can never go bankrupt, betting on the spinelessness of Republican senators, like the one we just saw, a few minutes ago.
COLLINS: And what the other thing is, is we mentioned Trump's to-do list. January 6 pardons were not on there. Trump has made clear, he wants to pardon January 6 rioters.
The question, I think, is, is this a blanket pardon for all of them? Do they differentiate between the ones, who are convicted of literally assaulting police officers, and then just the ones, who were on Capitol grounds that day, that were also arrested. Do they change that? I mean that is going to be a big question in the hands of this Justice Department.
HONIG: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: In addition to what Elie just laid out there.
WILLIAMS: Yes, and not just, do they pardon? But do they not pardon them, but extend clemency, leave their convictions in place, but simply get them out of prison?
Look, the pardon power, under the Constitution, is vast. It's virtually limitless. And it's the President's prerogative. Presidents across administrations have chosen to implement it, however they've wanted. And who knows? But any of these options are certainly realistic and possible, Kaitlan, for the President involved.
COLLINS: also, if you're -- if you're attorney general, what kind of access to information? I mean, you have access to everything, right, Elie?
HONIG: Everything. Every one of those agencies I just named, FBI, Bureau of Prisons, it's a staggering responsibility. I don't know that Matt Gaetz even has the first-understanding of what it means to be the Attorney General of the United States.
I mean, look, there is only one agency, only one body of the federal government, that can deprive a person of their liberty. And that's the Justice Department. And that's why, to me, it's an offensive pick. It's somebody who's so outrageously unqualified, and on top of that, not just partisan. It's OK to -- I mean, there have been partisans as A.G. before. But someone whose entire identity is built on, I'm an attack dog.
And one of the big questions, heading into this new administration, is just how far is Donald Trump going to go?
And look, I've been sort of -- you know, I think I've been measured about -- I don't buy into some of the worst-case scenarios. But if Matt Gaetz becomes Attorney General, that is a hard step in that direction.
WILLIAMS: Well, what I find fascinating is that it's almost the polar opposite of the Merrick Garland pick.
HONIG: Right.
WILLIAMS: By Joe Biden, which was -- you know, Merrick Garland, if anything, the knock against him was too methodical, too slow, and getting -- gumming up the works of the Justice Department, to some extent.
This is putting in an individual who there in effect to burn the whole place down.
COLLINS: I mean, George, I was here, eight years ago, when you were in the running to be the Solicitor General. It feels like a lifetime ago.
CONWAY: And then later -- and then later, I was actually offered the job of head of the Civil Division.
COLLINS: Yes.
CONWAY: Which is basically, the world's largest civil law firm.
COLLINS: I mean, what do you just as from that perspective, seeing what the Justice Department is going to look like now, and hearing, as Bill Hagerty was saying, he wants there to be a confirmation process, but hearing Trump has a mandate, and he has to play to this (ph).
CONWAY: Yes, no, he's completely spineless, as I said. I mean, look, it's absolutely appalling, but par for the course.
[21:50:00]
I mean, this is -- look, Donald Trump, the first time around, the first administration, I mean, he's a complete narcissist, and he loves being surrounded by people with fancy degrees, OK? That didn't work out for him, because those people were smarter than he was, and they tried to go around him.
So now he's going purely for loyalty, and purely he's picking purely bad people. We have a -- this is autocratic (ph) appointment, and that's -- we're going to see more of that. COLLINS: Thank you all, on that note. And great to have you. And we'll continue to follow that, of course.
In other news, here tonight, you're going to want to see what's coming up next. We have very a special guest, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who has a special inside look, at the weight loss craze that has swept the U.S., drugs like Ozempic. He's here ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, what some are referring to as miracle drugs, that people are using, to lose weight, are actually changing the face of the very health industry. You've likely heard of them, Ozempic, Wegovy, many others. But a big question tonight it still remains is how exactly do these drugs affect your body, and are there risks, and what are they.
CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta explores those exact questions, in his new special.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lean Sorep (ph) was one of the first people in the world to use this medication.
LEAN SOREP (ph), OZEMPIC USER (ph): A Tribe, what was called sort of the little sister of Ozempic called, Victoza.
GUPTA (voice-over): For her, it didn't work. Her blood sugars did not budge. Lean (ph) did not respond at all to that first-generation daily injection.
But everything changed, seven years later.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ozempic.
GUPTA (voice-over): Novo Nordisk's second-generation GLP-1 like medication, a weekly injection, called Ozempic, something almost everyone has now heard of.
But at the time, it was just a dream, a prayer.
GUPTA (on camera): What was your first thought?
SOREP (ph): Oh.
GUPTA (on camera): Pray that it works? SOREP (ph): Yes.
GUPTA (voice-over): At first, those prayers went unanswered. And the side effects were horrible.
SOREP (ph): The first time I tried Ozempic, I got really sick. It was like being seasick. I was actually panicking a little bit. Because I knew once you injected yourself, it would be in your body for a whole week.
GUPTA (on camera): That sounds miserable.
SOREP (ph): So, I had to stop very quickly. And then, I tried again, and the side effects was worse. But then I had another break, and then I tried again, and then, oh, finally, it worked for me.
GUPTA (voice-over): For the first time in her life, Lean's (ph) diabetes stabilized. Her blood sugar normalized.
SOREP (ph): I was very relieved. Oh, finally, this miracle medicine is working on me.
GUPTA (voice-over): And something else amazing happened. She lost weight, a lot of weight, 70 pounds in total. She called Ozempic, the world's easiest diet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And joining me now is Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
And Sanjay, it's great to have you here.
GUPTA: Hey, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: I think a big question, these drugs, it feels like they just came out of nowhere, and now they are everywhere. One question I have is, why it took so long to develop a drug like Ozempic.
GUPTA: It was interesting. I think a lot of people in the pharma- world, Kaitlan, did not think that people would actually inject themselves with a pen like this for obesity. I mean, they just didn't. They thought maybe a pill would work. But injection, that was maybe a step too far. That was the prevailing belief.
And there was also this other thing, which was, was obesity really a disease? And if it wasn't a disease, what exactly were these medications treating?
So, it was all these things sort of happening at the same time. They did not anticipate how popular these drugs would become. I mean, they are -- you know, the company Novo Nordisk has a value that is greater than the country of Denmark, where it is based now. It's incredible.
COLLINS: Wow.
GUPTA: But because they didn't anticipate it, it's why these drugs are commonly in shortage, because of that. So, there's still sort of catching up with all this, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, and I think one question, though, is the report you have here is talking about the latest research, on the side effects. But when you do see this, given how new it is, what did you learn about the long-term impact here, if anything?
GUPTA: For a lot of people, as you mentioned, this did seem to come out of nowhere. But versions of these drugs have been around, actually, for quite some time, up to 20 years. So, there is some long- term data on these GLP-like drugs.
What we don't know, and this is interesting, is that a lot of people, as you probably have heard, are taking these medications off-label. They're taking them not because they have obesity, not because they have diabetes. So, there's good long-term data for people who are taking them for medically-necessary reasons. But we don't have the long-term data on people who are taking it sort of in the soft label way. So we're slowly finding out.
Most of these side effects appear to be short-term, GI-type side effects. People also have talked about losing the joy in things. They lose the joy for food, but maybe also lose the joy in other aspects of their life as well. So that's a side effect that's being explored. But for a lot of people still, it remains to be seen exactly what it's going to lead to.
COLLINS: Well, and you've said, for the people who are taking it for what it's for, obesity, that it's more of a brain disease.
GUPTA: Yes.
COLLINS: Tell me what you mean by that.
GUPTA: This, I think, was the most fascinating part of it. We think about depression as a brain disease now. For a while, people said, Hey, just pull yourself up by the bootstraps. There's nothing going on in your brain. Now, we know differently. And it's sort of the same thing with obesity.
[22:00:00]
What is -- and there's an area of the brain, specifically here, called the hypothalamus, which is sort of near the skull base here, the base of the brain. That's the part of the brain that tells you that you are full. So you eat calories, you take in energy, and it sends a hormone to your brain that you are full now. Some people just don't make enough of those hormones, and that's where these medications can help fill that gap, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, it's a fascinating look, and no one better to look at it. Dr Sanjay Gupta, thank you.
GUPTA: Good to see you. Thank you.
COLLINS: And you can all see "DR. SANJAY GUPTA REPORTS: IS OZEMPIC RIGHT FOR YOU?" It's going to premiere, this Sunday, right here on CNN, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern.
Thank you all so much for joining us, from Washington, tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
