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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Taps RFK Jr. For Health And Human Services Secretary; NY Times: Musk Met With Iran's U.N. Ambassador; Trump Picks Tulsi Gabbard For Director Of National Intelligence. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 14, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: --we talked to dozens of Trump voters, most of them who voted for Trump, three times. And we found very notable, as that many of them told us, we hope Trump helps unite the country.
So, it's a noble thought. But there wasn't excessive optimism from too many of them about that possibility.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes. Still great to have you on the ground there, talking to people and hearing their voices and those stories. Thanks so much, Gary Tuchman.
TUCHMAN: Thank you, John.
BERMAN: The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Moments ago, President-Elect Donald Trump just wrapped up his remarks, speaking at his Mar-a-Lago Club, where the room is filled with several of the people that he just named to his incoming cabinet, including one of his latest and most controversial picks, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who Trump has chosen to be the nation's Health Secretary, despite how the vaccine skeptic has no medical degree or public health experience.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: Today, I nominated him for, I guess, if you like health and if you like people that live a long time, it's the most important position. RFK Jr.
And I just looked at the news reports. People like you, Bobby. Don't get too popular, Bobby. Don't. (LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: You know, you've reached about the level now. We want you to come up with things and ideas and what you've been talking about for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: With that pick, Trump is tapping Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to run the sprawling Department of Health and Human Services.
If he's confirmed by the Senate, and that is still an if tonight, Kennedy would oversee agencies, like the National Institutes of Health, the FDA, the CDC, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid, operations of the Affordable Care Act, which provides health care for millions of Americans, just to name a few of the responsibilities that he would have.
And saying that RFK Jr. is a vaccine skeptic is really putting it lightly. He has pushed conspiracy theories and lied about science on many occasions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., TRUMP'S HEALTH SECRETARY PICK: Tiny, infinitesimal amounts of merch -- mercury, parts per billion, will cause profound neurological injury in children. It's coming from our own vaccine.
COVID-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and -- and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and -- and Chinese.
The capacity for these chemicals that we are just raining down on our children, right now, to induce these very profound sexual changes in them, is something we need to be thinking about as a society.
Even in Hitler's Germany, you could cross the Alps into Switzerland, you could hide in an attic, like Anne Frank did.
Today, the mechanisms are being put in place that will make it so none of us can run, and none of us can hide. They're putting in 5G to harvest our data and control our behavior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Needless to say, that is not true.
But to tell you how we got here tonight. RFK Jr., of course, had mounted his own presidential race. He later dropped out, to help clear Trump's path to 270 electoral votes, and later formed a close-knit relationship with the Republican nominee, who promised, on the campaign trail, to let Kennedy go wild on health policy, if he won. Now, Kennedy might get that chance.
Just a few days ago, we heard from RFK, threatening mass firings at the FDA. Posting that the "FDA's war on public health is about to end... Preserve your records, and... Pack your bags," he said.
Tonight, he struck a bit of a different tone, saying, quote, "I look forward to working with the more than 80,000 employees at HHS to free the agencies... so they can pursue their mission to make Americans once again the healthiest people on Earth."
My source, tonight, to start us out, is the former acting CDC Director under President Barack Obama, Dr. Richard Besser.
And Doctor, it's great to have you here.
You heard Trump there, talking about the rein, the free reign that Kennedy would have. I mean, obviously, this is all pending a Senate confirmation. But what are your thoughts on Secretary RFK Jr.?
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER CDC ACTING DIRECTOR: Yes. Frankly, I find it chilling. I spent 13 years, working at the CDC, a large part of that time was during a Republican administration.
And one of the things that was always certain was that the Secretary of Health and Human Service -- Services, believed in science, believed in the power of public health science, to improve people's lives.
To see someone in that role, who has done, more than just about anyone, to undermine people's confidence, in our vaccine system, is absolutely frightening.
I've practiced pediatrics for more than 30 years. And there was nothing that I did for the kids in my practice that I knew, with certainty, had more value in their life than making sure they were vaccinated fully and on time.
And he has done so much to undermine the confidence, people have, in that incredible, incredible intervention.
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: It's also just, besides the vaccine skepticism, which is not dismissing it, because that's obviously a huge part of this. HHS is huge.
BESSER: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, we don't really know -- or, I was looking at this today, his thoughts on Medicare and Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act, which insures so many Americans. I mean, those are things he would have real jurisdiction over.
BESSER: That's right. The Department touches every single life in America. If you're elderly, you've got Medicare. If you have low income, you have Medicaid. If you have disabilities, you're getting services and support from HHS.
And I haven't heard him talk about those issues. And I think it's really important that people ask those questions, to know where he stands on that. I know where he stands or stood on vaccines, and I find that really concerning.
But one of the things that you see with many people, who spread misinformation is that there are little bits and pieces in there that are really a good idea. And because of that, it can be really confusing, when you're listening to someone, to sort out, Well, what's good here and what's bad?
The idea of focusing on chronic diseases in children, as a national issue? I think that's absolutely terrific. The idea of getting corporations out of having as much influence as they have, in governmental decisions is great.
Let's take on the school lunch program, and get processed food out of there, and truly make it a healthy meal. More than 40 million kids get half their calories from that. That would be something there could be bipartisan support for.
But those little bits and pieces of really good things are also mixed in with a lot of pseudoscience and information that is quite damaging.
COLLINS: Well, and that's really the question here, is when he is talking about that, that is often what we hear cited from people who say, I'm excited for this pick, because he wants to -- who likes processed foods or who doesn't think that those school lunches should be healthier.
But then you also hear him saying things, like the linking vaccines to autism in children, which was debunked.
BESSER: Right.
COLLINS: And this isn't something that happened before, and he's changed his mind on it.
Because the Transition co-chair, Howard Lutnick, who's running this, met with RFK Jr., in the lead-up to the election. I had him sitting here. And after a two-hour meeting with RFK Jr., listen to what he said to me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, CO-CHAIR, TRUMP-VANCE TRANSITION TEAM: So, I spent two and a half hours this week, with Bobby Kennedy Jr., and it was the most extraordinary thing. Because let's face it, we've all heard on the news, all sorts of sort of snarky comments about him.
And I said, So tell me, how's it going to go?
And he said, Why don't you just listen to me explain things?
And what he explained was, when he was born, we had three vaccines, and autism was one in 10,000. Now, a baby is born with 76 vaccines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, he was able to convince the CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald, who later said he believes in the science of vaccines, on that on -- he was pushing things that are not true about vaccines.
BESSER: Yes.
COLLINS: And having a -- being the HHS Secretary, people trust you. You have a platform.
BESSER: Yes. The idea that receiving vaccines would be parental choice scares me, you know?
One of the things that we have in America is a contract between each other, and an important part of that in public health is vaccination. I vaccinate my children, to protect them, but also to protect other people's children.
Sending a child to school, you need to have that confidence that the child sitting next to them isn't going to give them measles or whooping cough, because their parent decided that they didn't want to get their child vaccinated, because they're hearing all of this misinformation. We count on it. What if that child had an immune problem, and they're in there -- and their parent -- and their children who decided not to be vaccinated.
We vaccinate our kids because we care about our children, our families and our community.
COLLINS: So what would you to say, to a Republican senator, who might be listening--
BESSER: Yes.
COLLINS: --right now.
BESSER: What I would say is, we have an important system in America, of checks and balances. And the Senate plays a really important role, in terms of confirming nominations.
And I would say -- I would say, ask yourself, Will the people in my state be healthier by having RFK Jr. as the Secretary of Health, or will their health -- or will their health be in jeopardy. Ask that really honestly. And if the answer is no, you can't support this nominee.
COLLINS: Dr. Richard Besser, thank you.
And also joining us, here tonight, is the Assistant Secretary for Health under President Trump, when he was in office the last time. Admiral Brett Giroir.
It's great to have you here, Admiral.
Obviously, you were there very much at the forefront, during the COVID-19 pandemic. You wrote the National Vaccine Plan. I just wonder, from your perspective, and working with the HHS Secretary, as you did, are you worried that Trump has now elevated one of the most vocal vaccine skeptics to a post like this?
[21:10:00]
ADM. BRETT GIROIR, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HEALTH UNDER PRES. TRUMP, FORMER ACTING FDA COMMISSIONER UNDER PRES. TRUMP: Well, thank you for having me on.
And you're going to hear very similar comments from me as you did from Dr. Besser, maybe prioritize a little bit different way.
I think it is absolutely fantastic that America's chronic disease catastrophe has risen to the top of the headlines. We are in horrible health as a nation. We're 29th out of 32 in life expectancy, 30th out of 32 in infant mortality. 75 percent of our 18- to 25-year-olds can't even get to the military because of poor health. And that stems predominantly from nutrition, from a lack of exercise and economic issues. And these need to be put forward. And I think it's great that Mr. Kennedy has done that.
Like every other pediatrician, I'm a pediatrician as well, I am extremely concerned about at least his previous views on vaccines, and how that could affect one of the most effective mechanisms, to save our children.
Even in recent years, when I was a resident, my hallways were filled with kids with meningitis from Haemophilus. They were losing their legs due to Neisseria meningitidis. These have gone away to almost a complete extent because of vaccines. So, of course, I'm completely concerned about that.
I am hearing that he has moderated his views on vaccines, and that he's much more focused on transparency, and a lack -- in eliminating corruption, which we can all get behind. I think as Dr. Besser said--
COLLINS: Who are you hearing that from?
GIROIR: Oh well, I'm hearing it, from him, that he's really more focused. He's not -- he says he's not anti-vaccine. He's focused on transparency and safety.
And I think, as Dr. Besser said, we have to see how he evolves, now that he's not just a spectator, but he's not -- but he's now a participant and a leader, and gets the opinion of which I would hope would be the best scientific and medical minds.
COLLINS: Yes.
GIROIR: And I think the -- I think the Senate needs to have a very serious confirmation hearing, to understand where he is, and what he's going to do. And I hope, especially the three physicians on the Senate HELP Committee ask the hard questions, and demand accurate and truthful information and answers.
COLLINS: Well, and Dr. Bill Cassidy, a senator from Louisiana, sounded hopeful and optimistic about sitting down with RFK.
But on the idea of him moderating his views on vaccines. I mean, he is someone, who just sat down with the Transition Co-chair, weeks ago, and pushed lies about vaccines, things that were not true, and were making -- and the Co-chair was sitting here with me, saying, How do you know vaccines are safe for children?
So as a pediatrician, when you see that. I mean, this is a grown man, who was just saying this a few weeks ago, to basically the person he was doing a job interview with. Does that not make you concerned that children would be less safe, if Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was running the Department of Health and Human Services?
GIROIR: Well, as I said, I think there's some tremendous positive things, like focusing on chronic diseases in children. But of course, I'm concerned about vaccines.
What I hope Mr. Kennedy would do -- and it is a fact that the rates of autism have gone up. Just this week, a study was published in JAMA that depending on the age groups, between 2011 and 2022, autism rates have gone up as much as 450 percent. As a pediatrician and a scientist, I can say--
COLLINS: But not because of vaccines.
GIROIR: --that is not due to vaccines.
COLLINS: Yes.
GIROIR: But that is not due to vaccines.
So, I would hope he would commission an independent task force, best scientists, put the NIH and the CDC on this, to say, in 12 to 18 months, what are the likely causes of autism? We know it's going up. I can say, I know it's not vaccines. But let's get some true scientific information, independent of industry -- of industry manipulation, to understand what's going on. That's what I hope he will do. Of course, I don't know that.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, again, he's a grown man. He has articulated these views, time and time again. I have not heard him moderate them. Maybe he has, because he knows he's about to face a tough confirmation process. We'll see.
Admiral, thank you. Doctor as well. Great to have you both here.
Also breaking tonight, President-Elect Trump just announced a new name for his cabinet. North Dakota -- Doug Burgum. We'll tell you what key role Trump has tapped him for.
Also, Elon Musk reportedly meeting with Iran's ambassador to the United Nations in New York. We're going to speak to the investigative journalist, Ronan Farrow, about that.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Just moments ago, President-Elect Donald Trump, as he was speaking, and one of the few times that we've heard from him, in public, since he won the election, announced that he has selected North Dakota governor, Doug Burgum, for his cabinet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Burgum. Burgum. He's from North Dakota. He's going to be announced, tomorrow, for a very big position. So everybody's waiting. There he is. Hi, Doug.
Actually, he's going to head the Department of Interior, and he's going to be fantastic.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I'm not sure Doug Burgum knew that one was coming.
CNN's Kristen Holmes is outside the Mar-a-Lago event, in West Palm Beach.
And Kristen, I had heard earlier that Doug Burgum was at Mar-a-Lago for an interview. I think everyone kind of knew something was coming. But obviously, clearly, Trump was excited to announce this one.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And there is a part of that clip, I think we jump from the beginning to the end, where he just kind of drew out what it was going to be, in the most Trumpian fashion.
[21:20:00]
At one point, he was like, It's going to be a big job involving land. It's going to be a big job involving land and energy. OK. OK. It's Interior Department.
It is the most Donald Trump announcement of anything that I've ever heard, particularly given that he officially said he was going to give that announcement, tomorrow.
But as you noted, Doug Burgum has been in the mix, since he was passed over for vice president. We knew that he was going to serve in a big role. There were a lot of different options floating around for him. They landed on Interior, which I'm told by a number of sources, they just felt at the end of the day was the best fit for Burgum. They had to get Burgum there, as well.
We know that he himself obviously wanted to be vice president, that he himself had floated a number of different ideas of positions that he could take, within the administration, even if they weren't necessarily a cabinet position, maybe an overarching position that would touch on his expertise, which is likely, which is, as we know, energy, for example. So, this is where they landed for him. It was a very Trumpian announcement, as I said.
Now, there was a number of other people that were there, in the audience, and it really was a who's who of who helped Donald -- get Donald Trump elected. We have Elon Musk, Vivek Ramaswamy.
He had his new cabinet picks, RFK Jr., who he said was very popular, that everyone was very excited. No mention of the fact that it's very controversial pick, and they're not really sure he can actually get confirmed.
Doug Collins was there as well, who he just named to run Veterans Affairs.
As you noted, Donald Trump, this is one of the few times we've seen him speak, since he won the election. Just -- I think that was last week, I don't know. Time is a flat circle, Kaitlan, as you know. We've been working non-stop.
But one of the interesting things about seeing him there, tonight, was he was still clearly reveling in that election win. He went through a number of statistics to lead off of just how big the margins were.
This is clearly something that, as we've talked about, he believes he has a mandate, but he also is still talking about those statistics. And I would imagine as he enters into the White House, he'll continue to tout those figures.
COLLINS: Yes. Kristen Holmes, from West Palm Beach, thank you.
And tonight, I should note, the Senate elected -- the newly-elected Senate Majority Leader has confirmed that Trump will get his cabinet picks, even if the Senate does not confirm them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): What I said is, Bret, and I think this is a -- that all options are on the table, including recess appointments. Hopefully, it doesn't get to that. But we'll find out fairly quickly whether the Democrats want to play ball or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: By a recess appointment, he means that the Senate would go into recess. And therefore, Donald Trump could unilaterally appoint people to his cabinet, and they would not have to go through that vetting process that cabinet appointees typically go through, to make sure people who aren't fit for that kind of office and that kind of a power get confirmed.
John Thune there, said that after Trump announced RFK Jr., as his pick for the Health and Human Services Secretary, that is a question of whether or not he is going to ultimately be confirmed by the Senate.
And I should note, just a few weeks ago, when I spoke to Trump's Transition Co-chair, Howard Lutnick, who was also in that room at Mar- a-Lago, tonight, he said that Kennedy would not be getting a position in Donald Trump's cabinet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTNICK: Round Up and Monsanto?
COLLINS: But you're saying--
LUTNICK: He went after that.
COLLINS: --he would not be in charge of HHS?
LUTNICK: No, of course not.
COLLINS: OK. So he's not going to be like an acting--
LUTNICK: He's not going to be the Secretary, no.
COLLINS: Well, he couldn't get confirmed.
LUTNICK: That's not what he wants to do.
COLLINS: But would he be in an acting position--
LUTNICK: That's not what he wants to do. He--
COLLINS: --or anything like that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Still to be determined. We'll see what the Senate decides.
I've got my political sources here with me tonight.
Former Obama administration official, Van Jones.
Republican strategist and pollster, Kristen Soltis Anderson.
And also, former New York City Mayor, Bill de Blasio.
And Van, there was this belief inside Trump's orbit that RFK would have trouble getting confirmed. I think that's part of why Howard made that comment to me, Howard Lutnick.
But then it kind of set off an uproar, and Kennedy kind of was going out publicly, contradicting Howard Lutnick, and saying, Trump has told me I can get essentially whatever I would like in this administration.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: I don't know what you want me to say. I am just at a loss, because we're watching something happen in slow motion that is terrifying.
The reason we have a great country is because there are pillars in place, there are columns and structures, just like in your house, columns and pillars that you don't see, but they keep things in a good place. They keep things in a good direction. We have healthy children, because there are people, who've made sure that there are things in place for that.
And right now, we're seeing termites unleashed on everything. And this is a termite appointment. We know for sure that Bobby Kennedy is a vaccine-denier. He's a vaccine denier denier. He denies being a denier, but he is a denier. And he is going to do great harm.
[21:25:00]
And when you drive down trust in institutions? Democracy only works in a high-trust environment. When you make everything political, when you make everything negative, when you cast doubts and aspersions? Eventually, people have to rely on strongmen. And so, we're in a process right now that's just heartbreaking.
And it turns out that Donald Trump wasn't telling the truth, when he said he wasn't for Project 2025, and that guy on your show wasn't telling the truth when he said that Bobby wouldn't get HHS.
COLLINS: And Kristen, as we look at this. Republicans, yesterday, were getting these announcements, by the Truth Social posts, of Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence. Matt Gaetz as Attorney General. Pete Hegseth to run the Pentagon, obviously a massive, massive agency. Republicans are kind of processing this in real-time.
This is how they reacted to the RFK pick, today, on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I knew he was concerned, and I think he brings a lot to the table.
SENATOR-ELECT JIM BANKS (R-IN): RFK is imminently better-qualified and more prepared for Secretary Becerra, who sits in that role today, to carry out the agenda that the American people want.
REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): I think RFK Jr. obviously has raised significant issues on things like chronic illness, like obesity in America, and these are issues that we do need to tackle from a federal level.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Jim Banks, the second person you heard from there, he is a Senator-elect. He will actually be voting on RFK.
Do you think Trump is, at this point, just daring defy -- daring Republicans on Capitol Hill, to defy him?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST & POLLSTER: Absolutely. And this is like at the beginning of Jurassic Park, when the raptor is, they say, is testing the fences to figure out, where are you going to get zapped, and where are the weaknesses? That's exactly what's happening.
Donald Trump feels very empowered right now. He is clearly in it to the victor-goes-the-spoils kind of mentality. And it remains to be seen, will the Senate stand up to that and say, We are an independent branch of government. We have our own special section of the Constitution, and advise and consent means something. I do think, though, that with picks like RFK, even as controversial as he is, and as many of the things that he has said in the past are, I think a lot of these senators are going to be looking to get to yes, on as many of these picks as they can, even ones that are outside of the realm, of what they ever really expected.
I really think it's just Attorney General pick, Matt Gaetz, who's going to face the strongest pushback.
But I think with somebody like RFK Jr., especially because there really is this movement, especially of women, who find what RFK Jr. has to say, on health issues, to be somewhat compelling. They're not a normal part of the Republican coalition. Donald Trump recognizes that, and he wants to keep them part of the Trump team.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Mayor de Blasio, when you -- when you look at this. I mean, you, as Mayor, worked with public health agencies. When there's a pandemic, and you're relying on someone who's in charge of HHS, which oversees vaccine safety, I just wonder, as the former public official here, how you see that?
BILL DE BLASIO, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: It's dangerous. I mean, that's the only way to say it. And I'm not here to be political or hyperbolic about this. I'm just talking very practically.
When we went through COVID, let's remember, actually, Donald Trump and his administration did something very good. They sped the creation of the vaccine that saved a lot of lives, even if later he seemed to kind of disown his own creation.
But now you're talking about giving someone authority, over the public health apparatus. If RFK Jr. is telling people not to take vaccines, while we're facing another crisis, or if he doesn't want to marshal the public health apparatus of this country, to save lives? People will die.
And I'm not -- again, I wish -- I wish I was just being hyperbolic. I'm being literal. People will die, because someone is holding that role who does not believe in vaccination. That is just plain dangerous. That's not partisan. That's dangerous.
COLLINS: Yes, we lived it, of course.
DE BLASIO: We lived it.
COLLINS: Mayor de Blasio, thank you. Kristen Soltis Anderson. Van Jones. Great to have you all here.
Coming up next. The world's richest man, and Trump's new friend, who he says tonight, he has trouble getting to leave Mar-a-Lago, as he joked, today, we are learning that he met with an Iranian official about U.S. Relations. Ronan Farrow is here.
[21:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a man who has a seriously high IQ. You know, I'm a person that believes in high IQs. And his is about as high as they get.
Elon.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: What a job.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: What a job he does. He's a great -- and he happens to be a really good guy. You know, he likes this place. I can't get him out of here. He just likes this place.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump there joking that he can't seem to shake Elon Musk.
This comes as we're learning tonight, from The New York Times, that Elon Musk met, here in New York, with Iran's ambassador to the United Nations, at a secret location, on Monday. The Times cites Iranian officials reporting that the meeting focused on turning down the temperature between the U.S. and Iran.
The Trump campaign did not confirm the meeting. But it happened, as Musk has clearly become very deeply entrenched in the Trump transition. He sat in on a majority of the job interviews that Trump has conducted, at Mar-a-Lago, I'm told. He flew with him to Washington, yesterday, where he then got a standing ovation from Republican lawmakers.
My source tonight has reported on Musk extensively. Ronan Farrow is a Contributing Writer for The New Yorker, and also the producer of the new HBO Documentary, "Surveilled."
[21:35:00]
Ronan, when you see this report, The New York Times says it was actually Musk, who requested the meeting with the Iranian officials. Just given your reporting on him, I mean, what do you -- what do you make of the role that he's playing in this transition?
RONAN FARROW, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Well, it's completely consistent with the arc that we've seen over the last few years, of Elon Musk accruing more and more power, to the point where historians have told me, We've never seen anything like this, in terms of a private individual's, critics might say, ownership over, certainly, entrenchment in government circles of power.
And we've seen how that leads to all kinds of uncomfortable collisions of Elon Musk's personal interests, and American national interests.
One thing I've written about is how he has deeply entrenched interests in China. It's the location of his biggest Gigafactory, outside of the United States, for Tesla manufacturing. So, his own individual and corporate relations with China, for example, are not necessarily what the U.S. government's would be. And he's made all kinds of comments about Taiwan, for instance, that due to his own beliefs.
The American people didn't elect this individual. So, this is something I think we should all be keeping an eye on.
COLLINS: And he doesn't exactly restrain himself. I think even his fans or his critics would both agree on that. He talks constantly online. He's replying to people's tweets. He talks about Ukraine, Taiwan.
Do you think that when other people, maybe the Iranian officials, or other foreign officials, see that, that he's maybe speaking on behalf of Trump, that he's channel -- do they know who he's advocating on behalf of?
FARROW: I've talked to foreign officials, who really talk about Elon Musk, as the center of power and gravity.
We saw this in Ukraine, where he was controlling a lot of the infrastructure that allowed the Ukrainians to communicate, on the battlefield, and where his, seemingly at-a-whim decisions about whether to instate or take away that access, and where, led to some very, very strategically relevant situations for the Ukrainians.
And when you talk to the officials, who are ensnared, in those kinds of situations, what they talk about is worrying about his caprice, and also trying to curry favor and build relations with him, almost like he's a geopolitical power, a nation state himself.
COLLINS: Yes, sitting in on all of these interviews, for people like Secretary of State, like the National Security Advisor that we were told about, for the Interior Secretary for Doug Burgum, apparently.
And you have this new documentary on HBO, called "Surveilled." And it's basically taking this look at just the rampant rise in commercial spyware and what that looks like.
I wonder, as you're working on this, and thinking about that, how that relates to what we are watching play out, with the new national security team, and portfolio taking shape.
FARROW: Well, Western democracies, one after another, in recent years, have had these scandals, where this increasingly intrusive, increasingly accessible and cheap, private spyware technology that can turn a phone into a listening device, has been deployed in politicized ways.
When you look at the fact that in recent months, we've seen ICE, for instance, purchase intrusive spyware technology, made by foreign vendors, where we've seen even since the election, more requests for applications by ICE for this kind of intrusive monitoring technology. You see a situation where Donald Trump's campaign promises could be profoundly affected, in how they're executed by the presence of this technology, and this question of, what is the U.S. going to do in terms of curtailing or empowering that technology.
COLLINS: And how could it -- how could it change how he carries out those campaign promises, which ones specifically?
FARROW: Well, his pick for National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, in Congress, advocated for the expansion of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and mentioned again and again, in his justification for those arguments, illegal immigrants, undocumented immigrants.
So you have, people coming into this administration, who could very rapidly deploy technology that is already, and more and more in recent days, in the hands of U.S. law enforcement agencies, to try to execute the promises he's made very openly. Donald Trump has said he wants sweeping mass deportations.
COLLINS: Yes, and we'll see how he carries those out. It's a big question.
FARROW: We'll see.
COLLINS: Ronan Farrow, great reporting, as always. Thank you for joining.
FARROW: Thanks so much, Kaitlan. Appreciate it.
COLLINS: And up next. We are getting new reaction, tonight, some of the other Trump picks that Trump has announced today. He has named his personal defense attorneys to very key Justice Department spots. We'll tell you which ones, ahead.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Almost every Republican senator, who encountered a reporter today, was asked how they plan to vote on Trump's pick for attorney general, Matt Gaetz.
But today, the President-Elect also offered a fuller picture of what the leadership at the Justice Department could look like, if they are all Senate-confirmed.
Trump has selected his personal defense attorney, Todd Blanche, to be the Deputy Attorney General. That's the number two job at the Justice Department. Blanche is someone, who defended Trump during his criminal hush money trial. He also represented him in the classified documents and election interference cases. Trump also named another of his attorneys, Emil Bove, as the Principal Associate Deputy Attorney General.
And he also tapped John Sauer as the Solicitor General.
Sauer, of course, is the one who made this argument, during Trump's immunity case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE FLORENCE PAN, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT: Could a president who ordered SEAL Team Six to assassinate a political rival, who was not impeached, would he be subject to criminal prosecution?
JOHN SAUER, TRUMP'S SOLICITOR GENERAL PICK: If he were impeached and convicted first.
PAN: So your answer is no?
SAUER: My answer is qualified, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: John Sauer went on to make that argument, in front of the Supreme Court, and we saw how that decision has reshaped the presidency. He could soon be back in front of the Supreme Court. This time, he'd be arguing for the federal government.
My legal source tonight is CNN Legal Analyst, and former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.
[21:45:00]
I mean, Elliot, just on the Todd Blanche of it all, it's kind of the rebuke of all rebukes of putting your defense attorney, who's representing you in the cases that right now are being prosecuted, by the Justice Department, four (ph) now, I guess I should say, as installing that person as the number two in your Justice Department.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely, Kaitlan.
And regardless of what the former President, and people around him say, there is a long tradition of independence at the Justice Department, between the Justice Department and the White House. It has traversed administrations, Republican and Democratic.
The very idea of a personal criminal defense attorney coming in to be Deputy Attorney General, flies in the face of any sense of independence at the department. And beyond that, the Deputy Attorney General is an enormous management role.
Everybody who's come into that role has been at least a U.S. attorney, but -- not everybody, but virtually all of them have been U.S. attorneys, or major managers in the government, at some point, before -- they're going to be managing 110,000 people. And so, the very idea of someone who -- yes, he's a good trial attorney. It just doesn't smell right, in terms of decades, if not centuries, of history at the department.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a really good point, because independence is the norm.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: And for all the criticism you hear from Republicans of President Biden, and Attorney General Merrick Garland, I mean, they are barely on speaking terms, from what we've heard from sources.
And so, to think that the next time that when Trump is in office, that Matt Gaetz could be the Attorney General, Todd Blanche, his attorney, is the number two. I mean, he has very close personal relationships with both of those individuals.
WILLIAMS: Yes, it's funny you used the word, independence is the norm. It's not the law. And we have just accepted, as a matter of course, that our prosecutorial apparatus, in America, is going to be separate from the presidency.
Now, that's not how it works in a lot of countries around the world. And in quite noxious governments, presidents dictate prosecutions, and tell their law enforcement apparatus how to proceed. If that's what we want to become in America, then certainly, so be it. But that would be a profound departure from anything that we've seen in the 200-and- whatever-70 or however many plus years of prosecuting in the country
COLLINS: Well, and you've been through -- you know, before we get to that, before anyone makes it to the DOJ, they've got to get through these confirmations first. I think, we've seen how some of these fights, maybe, Todd Blanche and company may sail through, just given they're not the most controversial picks here.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: But you've helped people prep from this, from the side of Congress and from the Justice Department side. What do you think that's going to look like, in the next few months?
WILLIAMS: It's not going to be pretty.
And specifically, with respect to Matt Gaetz, the potential Attorney General, let's set aside his qualifications or any of the business about the politics, partisanship, any of that. Just look at the record, Kaitlan.
And you have an individual who has been investigated for criminal activity, certainly very serious allegations from the House Ethics Committee. All of that is going to be brought to the attention of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
If he was interviewed by the FBI, which he was, those notes can be made public. This happened in the context of Hillary Clinton's investigation. They can be made public, and made -- given to those senators. So all of that will be in plain view of the public and these senators.
That is a messy hearing and a messy process. It will be embarrassing for the nominee, but also bad for the President. And if that's -- if that's the fight they wish to have, I'll say it again, so be it. But it's certainly nothing we've seen before.
COLLINS: Yes, and of course, he has denied the allegations. He was never charged by the--
WILLIAMS: Of course, yes.
COLLINS: --by the Justice Department.
When it comes to a background check, is that something that would be typical for these nominees? Do they have to get an FBI background check first?
WILLIAMS: It's funny, you say, they have to get an FBI background check. Certainly, by process, regulations and rules have dictated that every individual gets a background check.
But that's driven by the President. And the President can choose to lift or suspend the rules of who gets background checks. This happened, in the context of Jared Kushner, last time around. And if the President wanted people to not get background checks, he could wave a wand, and say -- say so.
COLLINS: We'll see if he does.
Elliot Williams, thank you.
WILLIAMS: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to take a closer look at Trump's selection to run more than a dozen U.S. intelligence agencies. My next guest views Tulsi Gabbard as a threat to national security. Former National Security Advisor to Trump himself, Ambassador John Bolton is here.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Donald Trump's pick to oversee 18 different agencies, once introduced legislation to keep the CIA from operating in Syria, said she would have dropped the charges against both Julian Assange, who published military secrets, and Edward Snowden, the former CIA contractor, who leaked intelligence in 2013.
Tulsi Gabbard has supported a conspiracy theory that the U.S. was helping Ukraine develop biological weapons. Russian state TV recently referred to her as, quote, "Our girlfriend."
But Gabbard and Trump have not always seen eye to eye, I should note. In 2017, when she met with the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, while Trump was ordering air strikes on Syrian targets.
She also disagreed when Trump didn't act in response to the murder of The Washington Post journalist, Jamal Khashoggi.
She also once accused Trump of being, quote, "Saudi Arabia's bitch."
[21:55:00]
My inside source was Trump's longest-serving National Security Advisor. Ambassador John Bolton is here.
And obviously, Ambassador, I don't think it's surprising that Trump picked someone, who he once disagreed with, or has criticized him, to put in his cabinet. We've seen that with his own vice president.
But on the Director of National Intelligence position, specifically, when you were there, what was Trump's relationship like, with his last DNI?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, the DNI who was there, when I was there, was Dan Coats.
And as with Dan, and CIA Director, Gina Haspel, he was in constant confrontation with them. He didn't trust the intelligence community. He thought it was conspiring against him. And he tried to suppress things that he didn't like. That's typical Donald Trump.
And I think the nomination of Tulsi Gabbard shows that this is his effort to interfere in the work of the intelligence community, specifically where it affects him. This is not about some broad conspiracy to politicize intelligence. This is about a protection racket for Donald Trump.
COLLINS: How so?
BOLTON: Well, I think he expects Tulsi Gabbard, when she has to testify in Congress, to look out for his interest. I think that he demonstrated that at the end of his term, in releasing classified information, that he felt supported his case on various allegations that had been made against him.
I think Tulsi Gabbard is utterly unqualified to be, to have any connection with the intelligence community, whatsoever. And the views that she's expressed, including, for example, saying of Donald Trump himself, that he committed an illegal and unconstitutional act of war, when he ordered the elimination of Qasem Soleimani, her views are not extreme. They're bizarre.
And to put somebody like that in possession, ultimately, of any secret, the United States has, that she wants to know about, is comfort to our adversaries, and should be alarming to Americans.
COLLINS: And when you talk about her testifying. The Director of National Intelligence and other top officials testify at these annual worldwide Threat Assessment hearings on Capitol Hill.
I remember, when Dan Coats was testifying, and he was talking about Russia's attempts to spy, to interfere in U.S. elections. And someone called me and said, you could hear Trump screaming from the West Wing, because he was so angry about what Dan Coats was testifying about.
I mean, how dramatically reshaped do you think the intelligence community looks, under a Trump administration, if Tulsi Gabbard is confirmed here?
BOLTON: Well, I think it will be a point of open warfare. It's one of the areas, like the Defense Department, like the Justice Department, in particular, where Trump has the biggest axe to grind.
And it's reason among -- for all the criticism, all these Trump appointments that are coming, people in the Senate are only going to have a limited number of opportunities. And while I know some would say, Oppose every one of them. You need to pick your targets here, because the political pressure to confirm Trump's appointees is going to be very intense.
And I do think Presidents are entitled to deference. I think the confirmation process have gotten out of hand. But deference doesn't mean obeisance. And in the cases of Gabbard and Gaetz in particular, they are well, well outside any conceivable norms, for competence and character. So, I think the priority ought to be safeguard our national secrets by rejecting Tulsi Gabbard, and protect the rule of law, by rejecting Matt Gaetz.
COLLINS: Yes.
BOLTON: If you can achieve those two things, and people want to go after other targets, be my guest.
COLLINS: What do you want to see a Republican senator ask Tulsi Gabbard.
BOLTON: Well, I think for both Gabbard and Gaetz, the long tradition of having a full field FBI background investigations, before somebody is confirmed, should be carried out.
These are two critical positions, national security and law enforcement. And the Senate should insist on knowing what they have known about basically every other cabinet officer, since the FBI background check began.
And for anybody, who says that can be waived, or that there's no need for it, or the latest conspiracy theory is the Deep State will try and sink their nominations? That's just false. That's not the historical record.
[22:00:00]
When I was in charge of Legislative Affairs at the Justice Department, in the Reagan administration, confirming judges was one of our key objectives. I read the FBI background file on every one of the nominees that went up, over a 100 of them. They are basically boring. But they do find out information that's important.
COLLINS: Yes, absolutely, information that's important. We've seen that process play out. It's the whole point of this.
Ambassador John Bolton, we'll see if it happens. Thank you so much for your time, tonight.
And thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
