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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Wants Treasury Pick With "Big Name," Impressive Credentials; Gov. Pritzker: Military Deportations Seem "Uncalled For," & "Illegal"; Trump Taps Fox News Host Sean Duffy For Transportation Secretary. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 18, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: --that's for a very practical reason. They don't want to give their security arrangements away, but also, because of the sheer cost of it.
So, it's by far the biggest cost to the public, for having a royal family. The only estimate we got is from the anti-monarchy group, Republic. Estimates it around $200 million a year. We don't get much information on that, I'm afraid.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: All right. Max Foster, thanks so much.
Well, that's it for us. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: We're live from the center of the political universe, near President-Elect Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Club, where I have brand-new reporting on what everyone in Trump's orbit is talking about tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins, in West Palm Beach, Florida. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, just a short distance from where I'm standing, right now, just over the Intracoastal Waterway, over at Mar-a-Lago, the conversations are buzzing about the latest fight to shape Donald Trump's administration.
I have new reporting, tonight, about how the President-Elect is struggling with one of the biggest decisions that he has left. Who should be in charge of spending your tax dollars, and carrying out some of Trump's most ambitious plans. His Treasury secretary.
Several sources tell me that there has been intense infighting happening behind-the-scenes, as Trump is searching for a big name. But so far, coming up short. I'm told that Trump really wants to impress Wall Street with his decision. He wants to avoid rocking the stock market, which has been doing quite well, under President Biden.
Treasury is also one of the very few high-profile posts that saw relative stability, in Trump's first term. Remember Steven Mnuchin? He was the Treasury secretary there, serving out all four years.
This time, Trump is already set to interview a new batch of contenders, this week, here in Florida. I've learned that one of them is Kevin Warsh. He is someone Trump knows well, and someone who comes from the sort of private-money family connections that Trump often seeks out. He's married to an heir of the Estee Lauder fortune.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: Kevin Warsh. Kevin. Where's Kevin? I don't know, Kevin. I could have used you a little bit here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump was saying there, he's a former Federal Reserve Governor. He wanted to make him the Federal Reserve Chair, considered it, but ultimately did not, in his first time, going with Jay Powell. More on that.
But Trump has interviews lined up, throughout the week. But of course, trumping Trump, he could make a decision at any time.
One name that does appear to be out of the running, for now, is the man running his transition, Howard Lutnick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, CO-CHAIR, TRUMP-VANCE TRANSITION TEAM: We don't need the money, obviously. It's not the money issue. So, we can save the taxpayers, some money. We're able to raise plenty of money on our own. And it's not going to be an issue. We are ready for the transition for Trump-Vance. We are so ready.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Howard Lutnick made a push for the job that was so obvious it could prove fatal for his chances of becoming Treasury secretary.
I'm hearing from several people in Trump's inner circle that he grew irritated with Lutnick's blatant lobbying for the role, and essentially the jockeying that has been playing out between Howard Lutnick, who you saw there, and another contender for this position, Scott Bessent, and I'm quoting, from what I was told here, could end up as a murder-suicide, with neither of them ultimately getting the position.
This all comes as Trump is scrambling to save a position he cares the most about, out of almost every cabinet pick. His attorney general. CNN has learned that Trump is personally working the phones, tonight, calling up Republican senators, directly, and pushing them to confirm his pick, Matt Gaetz, whose confirmation chances, tonight, are very much up in the air.
My lead source tonight is CNN Political Analyst, and Senior Political Correspondent for The New York Times, Maggie Haberman. And Maggie, you have new reporting on the President-Elect's support for Matt Gaetz. Where is his head at, on this, right now?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: So Kaitlan, he is not backing off. As you said, he is calling people, senators and others, trying to push Gaetz and three other very controversial nominees through, once the nominating process actually begins. It hasn't yet, although you'd think that Trump was in office already, based on how much talk there is.
But he is very focused on getting Gaetz over the line. Privately, he has said in discussions with people that he thinks that Gaetz's chances of getting confirmed are, you know, the odds are less than 50 percent, or less than even, but he is still going to push ahead with it, and he is digging in, and I expect that that is going to be the posture for as long as he can hold it.
COLLINS: When he says, less than 50 percent, which I think is probably generous, when you talk to people, there. Seems to be a very clear- eyed view of the fight happening here.
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: Is there a sense that they're preparing replacements for -- if that -- if it does come to that situation, or not, from your understanding, yet?
HABERMAN: They're not talking openly about replacements. But they have a number of options, who they have looked at.
[21:05:00]
The A.G. post, Attorney General post, as you know, Kaitlan, is one of the most important to President-Elect Trump. And it is something that he has been talking about for a very long time among the people who could fill that role, and it doesn't mean necessarily would, but who could fill that role, should Gaetz falter. Could be Todd Blanche, who is Trump's personal lawyer, and the choice for Deputy Attorney General.
COLLINS: And when it comes to what that looks like. I mean, picking his personal attorneys to also go into the administration. He's now at four, with picking Will Scharf, over the weekend to be staff secretary, notable in and of itself.
But as we're triaging the headlines here. The other pick here that seems to be pushing the boundaries of what the system is going to take, is his pick for the Pentagon chief. Obviously, Pete Hegseth has been part of this as well.
What did you hear? What have you heard, over the last 48 hours, of how Trump is viewing that, given we've learned he did pay money to the woman that's accusing him of sexual assault, which I should note, he and his attorney are denying. HABERMAN: There's more concern from some people around Trump than there is from Trump himself, about this whole issue. Trump has really dug in, and has told advisers that he is going to stick with Hegseth. Now, we'll see if anything else emerges.
They did do a vet, we are told. This did not show up, this issue, because it was a private settlement, according to the people, who were briefed on what took place. Trump really likes Pete Hegseth. But this did introduce the thing Trump doesn't like, which is an element of surprise and a negative headline. And so, we will see where this goes.
But for now, he is sticking with him, as he is with Gaetz. Most of the heat, right now, Kaitlan, is on Gaetz. And so, where Trump's thinking and his advisers' thinking is, is that he can basically shift what the bar is for acceptability, and how much controversy the Senate system will tolerate, if Gaetz goes, maybe the other three, Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr., being the others get through.
COLLINS: They're viewing it lie that way. Is that by design, from what you've heard? Or is it just, they're seeing it as they have multiple nominees that are questionable--
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --about getting confirmed?
HABERMAN: Yes, I don't think this is -- this is 4D chess. I think that these are people, who they've decided they're going to stick to.
In the case of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and in the case of Tulsi Gabbard, they were two people who became part of his coalition, in his campaign.
Gaetz was picked, almost on a whim, aboard his airplane, as you know.
And Hegseth was an instinctive pick, on his part, but somebody who he's thought about before, for another role.
Put together, he's just decided he is going to batter a ram -- battering ram the system, and see where it lands.
COLLINS: You know how the negative headlines can affect Trump and his -- shape his perception of a policy or a person.
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: Is it -- do you think that he's viewing it differently, this time, than he was when he was last in office, when a negative headline could really get someone pushed out of a job? Is he still seeing it the same way this time around?
HABERMAN: I think it depends on who it is, Kaitlan. You reported earlier that he's grown irritated with Howard Lutnick. That is correct.
It's not really so much about headlines. It actually, it didn't begin this way, but it was exacerbated in an interview that Lutnick did with you. And he was very irritated by that interview, as Lutnick was making all kinds of statements. And people around him were irritated, as Lutnick was making statements that they did not view helpful.
And Lutnick has been around a lot. Trump has complained to people that Lutnick has been quote-unquote, Too much, even as he appreciates what Lutnick has done in the transition, and his financial support for the campaign, and for whatever other efforts he is involved with. That kind of thing Trump doesn't like.
There are other negative headlines that he has proven more willing to tolerate, because he is willing to dismiss certain headlines if they're in line with the kinds of difficulties he himself has faced, such as accusations about sexual harassment or sexual assault or sexual misconduct.
COLLINS: So, he views those negative headlines differently, because he himself has also been accused of those -- of those things?
HABERMAN: Correct, yes. And says -- and says they're false, yes.
COLLINS: On the Treasury aspect, can we just talk about that for a second, because it is, you know, it seems to be the primary thing that everyone in Trump-world is talking about today, given this is now dragged out. Here we are, Monday night. No decision, still. Nothing behind-the-scenes, it seems like either.
Howard Lutnick made this push for it. But there are other names that also came down here, met with Trump, seemed like they were on the verge of getting it. And it still very much seems to be anyone's job to have at this moment, Maggie.
HABERMAN: That's right. There are new names coming in. Jonathan Swan and I reported yesterday about Kevin Warsh, you talked about him before. Marc Rowan from Apollo is another name. Senator Bill Hagerty is another. There are other names that are floating around.
[21:10:00]
Unlike other roles, where Trump had a real clear idea of what he wanted in them, because the policy area was narrower, or because the scope of what he expected them to be involved with, was more specific and something he was more engaged with, the economic roles have always been a little more complicated for him.
And on this one, yes, he has told people he wants a big name, but what exactly that means is not clear. He does -- he is a credentialist, and he does like big Wall Street names. And so, it's not surprising that he is still looking around, because he has moved so quickly with so many other choices.
We will see where this goes, this week. The desire from a lot of people around him is to have it done by the end of the week, not just this post, but a number of other economic jobs in the administration.
COLLINS: What about the loyalty aspect on that front? Because obviously, that's something Trump prized so much in this role--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --as he was looking at it and -- or in any role that he's looking at. But he has hired people, who've criticized him. I mean, JD Vance, obviously, had previously criticized him. Marco Rubio.
And Marc Rowan, the Wall Street billionaire that you were talking about that's under consideration for Treasury. He was saying, last December, that he didn't like the choices, when it was clear was going to be a Biden-Trump race. He was saying, he couldn't believe that in a country of this many -- this many millions of people, that those were the two options. He said he was disappointed with it.
Does that factor into how Trump makes the call like this one?
HABERMAN: I have no doubt that there will be efforts to get that in front of Trump, and to make sure those factors are in his head.
If Trump ruled out every person, who had ever criticized him, he'd have a pretty empty government. And so, I think that in some cases, it moves past that. It depends on what else they offer him. In the case of JD Vance, it's really clear why it is that he likes JD Vance.
In this particular job, the Treasury secretary job, he does want somebody who can speak on TV. He does want somebody who can go on CNBC, and be effective making a case for the Trump economy. And he wants somebody, who he doesn't believe is going to try to be a voice in opposition to the tariffs that he wants. That was a big issue in his initial term. So, we will see where it goes.
COLLINS: And can I ask you? You also reported, over the weekend, about Boris Epshteyn, who is a close Trump aide. He basically organized all of Trump's legal defenses, when it came to his criminal cases.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: He played a role in picking Matt Gaetz on that airplane ride that you were talking about.
You reported, over the weekend, just about the level of influence that seems to be even surprising some people in Trump's circle about him.
HABERMAN: Yes, including Elon Musk, who has raised eyebrows about it, and we are told by multiple people, has chafed at Boris Epshteyn, privately, and of his influence privately.
There is no doubt that Boris Epshteyn, who is currently under indictment in Arizona, for his own alleged role in the so-called fake electors scheme, in 2020, to overthrow Joe Biden's win, he is basically orchestrating all of these legal appointments, in key jobs around President-Elect Trump. The Deputy Attorney General, the Principal Deputy Attorney General, the White House staff secretary, and the White House Counsel. Those are really key roles.
He is weighing in on other picks as well, that go beyond that legal area. So, people who are questioning why he has so much influence, and complaining about it, and there are -- he has a number of detractors in that world. The person who they have to ask about that is Donald Trump, who has empowered him.
COLLINS: Great reporting, Maggie, as always. Thank you very much, Maggie Haberman.
HABERMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Still to come here tonight. The lawyer for the two women, who testified to the House Ethics Committee, is telling CNN what could be in that report about Matt Gaetz.
Also, Trump once claimed that he had no idea who was behind Project 2025. So, why did he just pick one of its authors to lead a key agency?
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, two women who testified to the House Ethics Committee say that they were paid for, quote, sexual favors, by Donald Trump's pick for attorney general, Matt Gaetz.
Their attorney says that one of those women testified that she witnessed him having sex with a third woman, her then-underage friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEL LEPPARD, LAWYER FOR WOMEN WHO TESTIFIED AGAINST GAETZ: She testified to the House that as she was walking out to the pool area, she turned to a right, and she witnessed her client -- I'm sorry, her friend, having sex with Representative Gaetz. And her friend at that time was 17.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT: And so, and -- just to be clear, she knew this -- that this young, this girl, that then- Representative, Congressman Matt Gaetz was having sex with, on the table, was underage, because it was her friend.
LEPPARD: That's right.
BURNETT: Did your client have any idea as to whether Matt Gaetz knew--
LEPPARD: She testified--
BURNETT: --about the age, yes.
LEPPARD: Yes, so she testified to the House that Representative Gaetz did not know her friend's age, at the time.
BURNETT: Your clients knew he had paid, also your clients for sex, he was paying for sex?
LEPPARD: The testimony before the House was yes, that Representative Gaetz paid my client, both of my clients, for sexual favors, throughout the summer of 2017, all the way to the beginning of 2019.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the House Ethics Committee is expected to meet in just 48 hours, to talk about its investigation, and decide whether or not to publicly release the report that it had drafted so far.
Tonight, we're hearing from more Republicans, who want it to be released, despite what we're hearing from House Speaker Mike Johnson, who said doing so it would be like opening Pandora's Box.
[21:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): Whether we get the ethics report or not, the facts are going to come out one way or the other, and I would think it would be in everybody's best interest, including the President's, not to be surprised by some information that might come out during the confirmation hearing and the background checks.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You want to see it?
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): Oh, I do. But more importantly, I want the Judiciary Committee to be able to see it prior to the hearings. And then after that, depending on what happens, then, of course, it could be released to the -- to the other members that are going to, at some point, have a vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources tonight are:
Alyssa Farah Griffin, former Trump White House Communications Director.
And Elie Honig, former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York.
Alyssa, what we've heard from Matt Gaetz is that he's repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. His allies might point to what you heard the attorney say there that his client testified that he did not know her friend's age, at the time.
I think the question, though, the one that does matter here, is that whether or not that's enough for Senate Republicans.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right. Well, this -- these allegations have followed Matt Gaetz since his time in Congress.
And listen, if this was a member, who had more goodwill, among his colleagues, and Donald Trump's backing, he might have a better chance of fighting them off. But you would struggle to find a more universally-disliked figure, in the House Republican conference, or previously in the Conference, than Matt Gaetz. This was the person, who overthrew Kevin McCarthy. He brought the House conference to a screeching halt.
So I think there's a world, in which Republicans on the Ethics Committee, vote to release this report. And even if they don't, as John Cornyn alluded to in that clip, this is going to come out in the course -- the key facts are going to, in the course of the confirmation.
So, as much as Trump, very much, I do think, believes in him as a loyalist. He knows that he plays well with the MAGA base. There's a point at which this could just become too big of a headache. And I don't think Republicans are going to -- if this ends up coming to an open-session confirmation hearing, in front of the full Senate, want to have to defend some of these really, really salacious allegations.
COLLINS: Elie, what's your take on all of this?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Well, Kaitlan, there is only danger ahead for Matt Gaetz. And according to Maggie's reporting that we just heard, it sounds like Donald Trump may be starting to accept this.
There's really only two possible things, one or both of which could happen.
Number one, as Alyssa said, this report could come out. The House could vote to release it. It could leak. And I can't see the Senate voting on this guy, putting their perimeter on him without knowing what's in that report.
Separate from that, these allegations have begun to come out. We just saw that in the clip from the lawyer. And they will continue to come out. There is nothing holding back any witness, anyone who spoke to prosecutors, anyone who spoke to the House Ethics Committee, from coming out and telling their story. We're already seeing that. I don't see any way Matt Gaetz escapes from these allegations.
COLLINS: But Alyssa, do you see it that way?
Because obviously, I mean, Senate Republicans have proven time and time again that they will be loyal to Donald Trump. They will often bend with his will. Maybe saying however, describing or defending it, however they do. And Trump is directly calling these Republican senators, and lobbying them here.
And I just wonder, do you think that the Senate Republicans are going to stand in the way, and defy Trump in one of his first moves that he's made since winning reelection?
FARAH GRIFFIN: I think we have to watch it play out. Because Maggie's reporting, of course, that Donald Trump is calling on Matt Gaetz's behalf. That's right now. That might look different a week from now, if we start to hear more and more about these allegations, and it becomes harder for him to defend it. But I do think Senate Republicans are going to not make this Donald Trump's problem. I would say, the most likely scenario, if this report comes out, or if more information comes out into the public, would be either the Judiciary Committee have their hearing, and make a recommendation to President -- soon-to-be-President Trump, or even Senator John Thune, say there is not an appetite, I don't have the votes, let this be my problem.
There's elegant ways for Senate Republicans to technically side with Donald Trump, while reminding him there's an off-ramp here.
And to keep in mind, Todd Blanche, his deputy, who you know well and have interviewed, is a credible attorney, who I think would be much more palatable for Senate Republicans. So, it's not like he's left with no other options. He still gets someone who's loyal to him, who's credible, and who doesn't come with this baggage that Matt Gaetz has.
COLLINS: Well, Elie, that's the part here that -- from covering Trump. And I remember when there was a huge fight over John Ratcliffe, to be the Director of National Intelligence, in his first term.
If Trump had come out of the gate after winning and said, OK, my personal attorney, Todd Blanche, I'm going to make him the attorney general, I think there would have been more of an uproar.
But now, because of this situation, if Todd Blanche gets put up, do you think that there would be pushback to that? I mean, obviously, it's different levels of qualifications. He used to be a prosecutor with you at SDNY.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: But what do you think -- what's your view on all that?
[21:25:00]
HONIG: That would be night and day, to go from Matt Gaetz as a nominee, potentially, to Todd Blanche as a nominee, you would be going from someone who's completely unqualified, to someone who is eminently qualified in Todd Blanche. As you said, I worked with him for several years at the Southern District of New York.
As for the correct point that Todd Blanche and Emil Bove and other, John Sauer, who are all now in line to be top DOJ officials, all of them have represented Donald Trump. That is true. But that is not out of line with historical precedent.
George W. Bush nominated Alberto Gonzales, who was a good A.G., who had been his lawyer in the past. Ronald Reagan nominated Edwin Meese. Jimmy Carter nominated Griffin Bell. John F. Kennedy nominated his own brother, RFK Sr., the Father, of course.
So, there is plenty of history here, of presidents nominating people, who have worked for them as personal attorneys, worked for them as government attorneys, or even as family members. So, it's not out of line here if Todd Blanche ends up getting this nod. COLLINS: Yes, just not necessarily representing him, while he was on criminal trial, which the--
HONIG: Right. Well that's true.
COLLINS: --former Presidents, of course, had not been.
Elie Honig. Alyssa Farah Griffin. Great to have you both. We'll see how this plays out.
Up next though, we're going to talk about what Trump promised in a very early morning post, about mobilizing the military, revealing his details about that plan to carry out mass deportations. One of his allies, who led the Border Patrol union, is my next source, right after this.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Donald Trump is confirming he plans to use the U.S. military to carry out his pledge to conduct mass deportations, which Democrats have expressed deep concerns about, and argue may be illegal.
Here's Illinois Governor, JB Pritzker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): We, of course, are deeply concerned about, you know, the President of the United States calling out military inside the United States.
The idea of calling out the Army into the domestic confines of the United States is -- seems uncalled for, and may in fact, be unconstitutional and illegal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump affirmed his plans to declare a national emergency, and use military assets to deport undocumented immigrants, when he responded to a social media post just after 04:00 a.m., this morning, writing in all caps, quote, "TRUE."
My source tonight is Brandon Judd, the former President of the National Border Patrol Council, which represents more than 16,000 Border Patrol agents and staff.
And Brandon, it's great to have you back on this.
When you hear declaring a national emergency, using the U.S. military to carry this out, is that the right way to do this, in your view?
BRANDON JUDD, FORMER PRESIDENT, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: Absolutely, when you look at some of the things that these Guardsmen are going to be doing. Now, we first have to recognize that the Guardsmen have been used, many times, with president -- every single president that I have served under has used the Guardsman. Janet Napolitano, former Secretary of DHS, she used the National Guard, unless my memory is faulting. But this has been done in the past.
But when you look at what they're going to be doing. Now you're talking about logistical work. You're talking about transportation. You're talking about intake. You're talking about potentially fingerprinting. None of this is police work. None of that has to be done by sworn law enforcement officers. And so, what he's going to be doing is he's going to be calling on the National Guard.
Now, I don't put it past Stephen Miller. He's a policy wonk. He understands policy extremely well. He's going to look at what else can be done by the National Guard. And anything that they can do under the law, I'm sure, that's going to be what they're deployed to do to -- in order to ensure that people are removed, that are subject to removal, are removed from this country.
COLLINS: But what does that look like in practice? I mean, you mentioned fingerprinting, and driving people around. But are we -- I mean, does that mean that there is a likelihood or possibility that we could see National Guards, U.S. troops on American soil, going into homes and businesses?
JUDD: No, no, absolutely not. Again, that would be police work. When ICE the -- I'm sorry -- when HSI takes somebody into custody, and they don't have the means to transport, that's when you can see the National Guard.
When you don't have enough sworn officers to do the fingerprinting or the intake, all of that logistical work, that can be done by the National Guard. And that has been done by the Guard in the past. So, it's not something that we haven't seen before. We've done this before, and we've done it very effectively.
COLLINS: But have we ever done it as a country on a scale like this? I mean, Trump is promising to carry out mass deportations way higher than what we're seeing, right now, than what the Biden administration has been doing, which is in line with the level of deportations, during the Trump administration.
I mean, does that -- if ICE, right now, does not have the capacity to do what Trump is promising, how does that mean those National Guardsmen are not getting more involved than just the logistical aspect that you just mentioned there?
JUDD: Well, the way you ensure that doesn't happen, of course, is if Governor Pritzker wants to file a lawsuit. Then, the courts will weigh in. The courts will make that determination.
Everything is subject to lawful review. Everything that I do, everything that any law enforcement officer does, is subject to review by the judicial branch. And so, you can expect that that's going to happen. [21:35:00]
But again, Kaitlan, when you look at the scale. We've never been in a situation like this before. We've never had 8 million people be released into the United States in a four-year period of time. We've never had more than 2 million got -- a minimum of 2 million gotaways in a four-year period of time. So, this is unprecedented times. And when you have that, then you have to do -- you have to take unprecedented measures.
But what I do look at is I look at we have done this in the past. We've done it before. We've used the National Guard, and we've used them effectively. And I'm certain that this administration is going to use them effectively again.
COLLINS: But is it legal?
Because, I remember when Trump declared a national emergency, the first time he was in office, he wanted to use military money for the border wall, because Congress didn't give him as much as he wanted. I mean, that got tied up in the courts, and I don't believe it was ever resolved before Trump left office.
I mean, is it legal for him to do this?
JUDD: I think so. Again, I'm looking at what has been done in the past. You're just looking at a larger scale. So, we have used the National Guard in the past. So, that was done.
And I also look at, when Secretary Napolitano was nominated, we heard everybody say, Oh, she's eminently qualified. She's been a governor. She knows the Guard. She had to deal with the Guard.
Well, now we're going to have a secretary who has done the exact same thing. So, Governor Noem is going to be able to look at this, and piggyback off of what she's done with her Guard, and look at the National Guard and do the exact same thing.
I believe that this is going to go off without a hitch. I believe that we understand and recognize that there's going to be judicial review. And if the courts come in and say, You can't do it, then you scale back. But we've done it before. We're just going to do it on a larger scale.
COLLINS: You're well-sourced in Trump-world and in that orbit. And obviously, they have relied on your expertise, I know, in the past, in what they're planning on doing. I mean, as far as -- they want to carry this out on day one. I think you -- we've talked about the logistical challenges, and if ICE even has enough officers, to -- an agency to carry this out.
When you look at that, do you know of executive orders and stuff that they are planning to do, on day one, that would be part of this mass deportation pledge?
JUDD: So Kaitlan, I, completely honest, I don't know of any executive orders that are coming. And obviously, I wouldn't be able to say, if I did. But I can honestly say I don't -- I don't -- I'm not aware of any executive orders that are going to come out on day one.
What I am aware of is from day one, HSI, Border Patrol, ERO, we're going to be allowed to actually do our job. Rather than releasing people, rather than being what has been laughed at, as the Welcome Patrol, we're going to go back to being the Border Patrol. We're going to go back to enforcement operations, and that's what everybody is going to be doing.
When you look at what the Border Patrol has been doing, over the past four years, the vast majority of our agents are not doing enforcement work. They're doing that logistical work that we were just talking about.
We can take that away. We can give it to somebody else. Free up our law enforcement to go out and do what the American people have always wanted us to do, and that's the enforcement work of protecting all United States citizens.
COLLINS: You said you think it will go off without a hitch. We'll see what that looks like.
Brandon Judd, thank you for your time.
And breaking tonight, another Fox News host has been tapped for Trump's cabinet. What we know about Trump's latest pick, also a former reality show star. That's next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're back live from South Florida tonight. Our team has been here in West Palm Beach, working our sources, as the President-Elect is hashing out big decisions, this week, for what his administration will look like, who will be carrying out his promises.
There's a new pick coming from Mar-a-Lago. Former Republican congressman Sean Duffy, who has been tapped to lead the Department of Transportation.
Duffy seemingly checks off two of Trump's favorite boxes. He is a former reality TV star, who appeared on "The Real World" in the 1990s. And in recent years, he has been a familiar face on Fox News, making him Trump's second pick from the channel to go into his cabinet so far.
My political sources tonight are:
Former South Carolina State Representative, Bakari Sellers.
And CNN Political Commentator, S.E. Cupp.
And S.E., when you look at this. I should note, Sean Duffy is a former Congressman, who came of age during the Tea Party movement. That was when he first entered office in 2010. I should note, his wife, Rachel Campos-Duffy is also a Fox News host. And her co-host, until a few days ago, none other than Pete Hegseth, the pick for Secretary of Defense.
What do you make of how this is shaping out?
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I know Sean. And I put Sean in a bit of a different category.
As you mentioned, he was a member of the House. He has held elective office for almost 20 years. So, that reality TV background is perhaps an interesting way to enter Congress. But I think he's proven, over the course of nearly 20 years that he can legislate. He sat on multiple committees.
I might not always agree with him. In fact, in the Trump era, I did not agree with him a lot. But I don't put him in the same category as someone like Pete Hegseth or even Tulsi Gabbard, who I just don't think has any relevant experience for the post that she's being put up for.
So, listen, lot of colorful people in Trump's -- in Trump's cabinet. But Sean is actually someone, who has actually done the work. He's a lawmaker.
COLLINS: Yes, and he, so far, has not generated the headlines that we've seen for the other picks.
CUPP: Yes.
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: And Bakari, on that front, the question of how these people will get confirmed.
Senator Rick Scott earlier replied to a post that was later deleted from a New Yorker reporter, saying that Senate Minority -- former Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, now just Senator Mitch McConnell, for the first time in 20 years, that he had shot down this idea of recess appointments.
And Rick Scott wrote, quote, "Yes, there will be," Bakari.
What does that tell you about the determination that you're seeing, from Senate Republicans, about getting these people confirmed, even if it's not the typical process that the Senate adheres to?
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (D) FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: I mean, first, you have some individuals, who I just disagree with politically, but definitely deserve to be confirmed. Like Duffy, for example, right?
We disagree politically. But he's someone who not only was a U.S. Attorney for eight years, but also served in Congress for eight years. I mean, he checks those boxes, as S.E. said. And as a president, you should have the people who are qualified, who can serve in those roles.
That's totally different than Pete Hegseth. That's totally different than somebody like Tulsi Gabbard. That's totally different than somebody like Matt Gaetz. And usually, recess appointments are the only way someone who is this uber-unqualified can get the job.
I recall back when Barack Obama had 60 votes, in the United States senate -- or nearly 60 votes in the United States Senate, and his HHS Secretary, who was a former senator himself, had to withdraw because of some perceived ethics conflicts.
And now, you have individuals, who have credible ethics reports that we're shrouding from the American public. We have Pete Hegseth, who has his own litany of issues, going over the Secretary of Defense. And we have someone, who has credible ties that are nefarious at best, that drive us crazy, in Tulsi Gabbard going over to DNI. I think there're serious concerns.
And I like the policy discussions. For example, there was a comparison just made of Janet Napolitano to Kristi Noem, I mean saying they were both governors. The fact is, one was the Governor of Arizona, so that actually prepares you to be Director of Homeland Security. The other is, the Governor of a Dakota. That's not quite the same thing.
But yet, and still, those are just policy differences. And Kristi Noem probably deserves to get over that hump. You have three individuals who I just named, who do not.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, there were questions, initially, in Trump-world about how Kristi Noem could get confirmed. That seems to have quieted down.
And S.E., on this front, we have come a long way from where paying your nanny under the table used to be disqualifying, for someone who was up for a Senate confirmation.
CUPP: Yes.
COLLINS: And on Pete Hegseth, we reported over the weekend that the woman, who had made the sexual assault allegation with him, they had actually entered into a financial agreement. He paid her a sum of money.
He has denied that, and his attorney has said it was a consensual encounter.
And Trump has been so far standing by him, not really weighing in on this.
And I wonder what you make of how he's handled this.
CUPP: Well, I think Maggie brought up the connection here that Trump -- Trump doesn't mind allegations that he himself has faced. And obviously, Trump has faced allegations of sexual assault, and he's been adjudicated to have raped someone. But the problem with Pete -- listen, Pete has not been charged with a crime, and that needs to be said. The police investigated. He was not charged with a crime. Pete's got lots of peccadilloes. He's got lots of controversies in his past. Those will all come out.
The problem with Pete is the -- is that he is eminently unqualified for a very big-boy job at DOJ. And that lack of qualification comes from the fact that he is a hardened partisan, going up for a post that should be non-partisan completely. And he's had no legislative and no executive experience. So, that bothers me.
And the other thing, I know Pete Hegseth well. This isn't personal. But what also bothers me about Pete, and should bother other people, is that Donald Trump is not sending Pete to the DOJ (ph) to fight our enemies. He's sending Pete to the DOJ (ph) to fight wokeism. And that culture war stuff, trust me, is not why people voted for Donald Trump.
I talked to hundreds, if not thousands of them, in swing states, over six months. Not a one told me they were going to vote for Donald Trump, because they wanted to end wokeism in the military. Not a one told me they were voting for Trump, because they wanted to get rid of fluoride in the water or end vaccines. Not a one told me they were voting for Trump, so that he could exact revenge on people through the DOJ. This is all stuff Donald Trump is doing for Donald Trump.
The stuff that voters care about are his immigration, economic and crime policies. That's what they voted for. And to his credit, Trump listens to them. All this other stuff, this is for Trump, not you, the voter.
COLLINS: Yes, interesting to see how -- you know, we've seen Republicans arguing that he had a mandate, especially for DOD and whatnot.
[21:50:00]
Bakari, final thought from you, before we go. Because what we saw happen, over the weekend, on Saturday, Trump went to the UFC Fight at Madison Square Garden. It was of who's who of his cabinet and his influencers that are around him.
There was a picture that was posted after, on social media, of several of them, Elon Musk, Donald Trump Jr., RFK Jr., having McDonald's. Obviously, RFK is going in as he argues to make America healthy again. Obviously, skeptics of that, given what he -- the lies that he's pushed about vaccines.
But on this, I just wonder what you make of it, given we've seen RFK Jr. has said eating -- you know, that Trump eats poison with his KFC and all of his favorites.
SELLERS: Yes, this picture doesn't bother me. I think one of the things we have to do, over the next four years, is refrain from trying to kind of chase these things that feign outrage over Donald Trump, because he'll just drive us mad, collectively, over the next four years. RFK is a joke in this position, particularly with the agencies that he will oversee. And I recall the same people, who were pushing Make America Healthy Again were pissed off because Michelle Obama wanted to make school lunches healthy, and build a garden in the backyard. In fact, the Trump administration hated the garden so much that one of the first things Melania Trump did was dig it up.
I think the images that we need to care about more, or when we have this quote-unquote, flawless deportation, mass deportation, I'm using air quotes here, and you're going to have those images of innocent people, who are being deported, American citizens who are being deported, whole families that are being deported. Because they're not going to rip away children. They're going to take the whole family.
And so, I believe that those are the images that we need to care about, when we see those images across our TV. I mean, they can -- they can have a milkshake for me, and eat a couple of them apple pies, because I sneak and do that myself.
COLLINS: Bakari Sellers. S.E. Cupp. Thank you both.
Up next here. Trump has also picked one of the authors of Project 2025. For long time, he said he would not pick anyone from Project 2025, didn't know anything about it, for a next top job. We'll tell you what he said he wants to do in his role.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: He wrote Project 2025's chapter on the Federal Communications Commission. And now, he is Donald Trump's pick to chair it.
Brendan Carr is a veteran, who currently sits on the Commission. And when he was recently asked, under oath, I should note, if he'll execute on Trump's calls for revenge on news networks, he declined, repeatedly, to give a straight answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): If you were Chair of the FCC and Donald Trump, per usual, called you from the Oval Office or called upon the FCC to demand the revocation of a license for ABC or NBC because he had a political problem with -- with something they had done, what would your reaction be? It's an honest question. How would you deal with that?
BRENDAN CARR, COMMISSIONER OF THE FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION OF THE UNITED STATES: I thank you for the question. I don't know about all the premises in there, but I'll tell you--
RASKIN: Well, they are all true, but I can give you the documentation if you want.
CARR: Speaking of that, the hypothetical about the future that you were laying out, saying I don't want to -- I am not sort of speaking to a hypothetical future.
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): You didn't answer Mr. Raskin's simple question on ABC and revoking the license.
CARR: What I have said is consistent with what I have said for the past six years, which is every single decision, including in the licensing context, is one that I will make based on the facts, the record.
KHANNA: I mean, come on. It's a simple question. Just give us your opinion. Yes or no?
CARR: My opinion is that the FCC, in every single case, has to apply the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is CNN's Chief Media Analyst, Brian Stelter.
And Brian, the FCC, by its own rules, cannot punish TV stations for editorial decisions. But what power would Brendan Carr have, when it comes to reshaping this agency?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST, AUTHOR, "NETWORK OF LIES": That's right. And cable is not included. This is only about broadcast TV and radio. Licenses are renewed every eight years. Normally, it's a pretty pro forma process. Carr could slow it down, however. He could make it more complicated.
And he's already signaled he wants to make sure stations are acting in the public interest. Normally, that's defined as having local news, but maybe he'll define it a different way. If he wants to make bigger changes, he'll need Congress to act, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Well, on that front, he announced -- I mean, we saw that relationship with Congress there.
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: But after Trump announced him, he posted almost immediately and said, "We must dismantle the censorship cartel and restore free speech rights" to "Everyday Americans."
STELTER: Right.
COLLINS: But when it comes to the FCC, and what he wants to do with companies like Google and Facebook and Microsoft, what authority will he have there?
STELTER: Right now, all he has is the bully pulpit. He does not have authority to regulate those companies. He would need Congress to give him that authority. But this is the difference between Trump's first term and second term, in a nutshell.
The first Trump term, the FCC Chairman comes in, he talks about deploying broadband, talks about wireless spectrum.
The second term, Carr comes in. He is preaching Trump's gospel. He's talking about censorship. He's talking about ending DEI initiatives. So you see Trump using government in a different way in the second term.
By the way, who is Carr's big ally? Elon Musk. And where's Trump going to be tomorrow? At Musk's space launch -- SpaceX launch in Texas, another sign of that very cozy relationship.
[22:00:00]
Everybody's going to be watching tomorrow, rooting for SpaceX to have a successful mission. It makes you wonder if the Biden administration might regret having such a cold relationship to Musk. Carr has tried to have a very friendly relationship with Musk, and now could be in a position to send billions of dollars in subsidies towards SpaceX.
By the way, Kaitlan, how did you get such a plum assignment? You've got a dream. You're in Mar-a-Lago. You're feeling the ocean breeze, 75 degrees. I wish I'd come down there and join you.
COLLINS: It's all in the eye of the beholder, Brian Stelter, as you know. So, I'll get back to you on that. Thank you, Brian, for that. Super-helpful.
STELTER: Thanks.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much, for joining us, live, from West Palm Beach, Florida. I'll be back here, tomorrow night, with my reporting.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" is up next.
