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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Team Signs Ethics Agreement, Not GSA Or DOJ Deals; "I Have No Cash": Giuliani Throws Courtroom Temper Tantrum; VP Kamala Harris Addresses Supporters In New Video: "Don't You Ever Let Anybody Take Your Power From You." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 26, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
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The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.
Team Trump finally signing a long-overdue critical agreement with the Biden White House, to ensure a smooth transition of power. But the President-Elect is still shutting one agreement that involves the FBI.
And breaking news, this hour, a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah now in effect. But will this U.S.-brokered deal hold, and what could it mean for the war in Gaza tonight.
Also, here in New York, Rudy Giuliani's tantrum in court as he ranted at the judge that he cannot pay his bills, after defaming two Georgia election workers.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, three weeks since Donald Trump's election win, but nearly two months past the deadline, the President-Elect's team has finally signed a critical agreement with the federal government, to start formal briefings for incoming officials with the current ones.
Now, this agreement is mandated by law. It's usually done right away, without a lot of fanfare, because it grants access to people, to briefings, to clearances, all the things that are needed for an incoming President to jumpstart that transition into taking over the federal government.
In a statement tonight, Trump's incoming Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, indicated that they had waited, as he was assembling his top officials for his team, saying, quote, "After completing the selection process of his incoming Cabinet, President-elect Trump is entering the next phase of his administration's transition by executing a Memorandum of Understanding with President Joe Biden's White House."
But while they did sign one agreement, there are two critical ones that the Trump team has not signed, despite some optimism that you heard here on THE SOURCE that all of this would be agreed upon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The Trump team has not yet done so. Why not?
HOWARD LUTNICK, PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE: That's just way below, you know, way below the things that are important.
We'll probably get them signed. But it's, as I said, it's up for the lawyers to work it out. But these are not important issues. This is sort of a low-grade issue that the Vance -- Trump-Vance transition is ready. We've got -- we've got so many candidates. We are so set up. I feel great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, they're setting up those candidates.
But here's why this matters. Because of those two agreements, first, those one with the General Services Administration. You may not recognize that. It's a little-known agency. It grants access to office space, to government emails. Recall, that was the one that in 2020 that we focused on, because they slow-walked acknowledging Joe Biden's victory and blocked his campaign, temporarily, from getting data, or even being able to make contact with federal agencies. The Trump team has not signed that one tonight.
But secondly, and more critically, Trump's team is refusing to sign an agreement with the Justice Department that would allow the FBI to conduct security clearances for his incoming team.
Now, Biden White House spokesperson is clearly raising concerns about this, and questions about how it could hamper the transition process. Look at what they said in a statement tonight.
"President-elect Trump and his team will be in seat on January 20 at 12 pm and they will immediately be responsible for a range of domestic and global challenges, foreseen and unforeseen. A smooth transition is critical to the safety and security of the American people who are counting on their leaders to be responsible and prepared."
Essentially, it could threaten what Trump himself has promised.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Looking forward to having a, like we said, smooth transition.
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: A transition that's so smooth it'll be as smooth as it can get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, our sources are telling us tonight that during that meeting you saw there, in the Oval Office, Biden was urging Trump to sign these agreements.
My political sources to start us off tonight include two from Trump- world.
2020 campaign manager and White House political director, Bill Stepien.
And the former Trump Deputy Press Secretary, Sarah Matthews.
Also joining us is the former senior adviser to Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign, Karen Finney.
It's great to have you all here, as we sort through this.
Because, I mean, we've seen how much transitions matter. And certainly Bill, that is something that the Trump team is very eager to get a move on, on day one. What's your outside assessment, knowing how this works inside the White House, of how they're handling this process, so far?
[21:05:00]
BILL STEPIEN, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF POLITICAL AFFAIRS: Sure.
Like, all this talk about them being behind, not ready, the not prepared? I was a part of the 2016 campaign, part of the transition after the campaign, part of the day one administration. I can tell you, they are lightyears today, ahead of where they were eight years ago. Eight years ago today, only two Cabinet Secretaries have been nominated. We know today, the entire cabinet has been nominated.
I keep hearing all the insiders talk about how they don't have access to documents, to agencies, the things they need to know. They'll figure out the security clearances that you referenced, because they're going to need them.
But Trump has already been president, right? When he's sworn in on January 20th, it won't be day one for him. It's day 1461. The people around him have worked in government. They don't need directions to the bathroom. They're going to figure this all out.
This is arguments from among the bureaucrats about paperwork, and not much more than that.
COLLINS: Yes, they are coming in, obviously, with a much different expectation and mindset. Obviously, Trump himself has now been there before. He's talked about how he wasn't there, and didn't have a lot of Washington experience in 2016. But Sarah, on this, Trump has picked more cabinet officials at this point, I believe, than Biden had when he won. He was a little more deliberative and picked them later on in November.
But if those cabinet officials don't have the FBI background checks, and they have to go before the Senate for confirmation hearings, I mean, what does that look like? Because we've heard concerns from senators that, I mean, that could delay this process.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: Yes, and some of these nominations that Donald Trump has put forth, notably, I think Pete Hegseth and Tulsi Gabbard, these are folks who I think might have trouble getting a security clearance.
And so, what I envision the Trump campaign wants to do is that they want to wait until they take office, he can fire Christopher Wray, and reshape the FBI, and put who he wants in charge, and then he can grant the security clearances to these people, and they'll have an easier time getting them.
And so, it does make it a little concerning, though, because I worry about some of these characters, whether they would pass a normal security clearance, given in any other administration, because I do think that there are some troublesome things, in Hegseth and Gabbard's backgrounds.
And so, I mean, obviously the Senate is going to have their obligation, their constitutional duty, to vet these candidates. And so, it won't just be an FBI background check. They'll have to go through these Senate confirmation hearings. And then we'll be able to really ask them the tough questions about some of the more questionable things in their background as well.
COLLINS: Well, Karen, I mean, you've worked on transitions before. You helped with the Clinton transition in '92. Tell me your view of this. Does Bill have a point that they have been there before, so going into it differently this time, maybe that's what's affecting their decision-making here?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SR. ADVISER TO HILLARY CLINTON 2016 CAMPAIGN: Well, I think what's affecting their decision- making is a lesson that Trump, we've heard this reported, learned the first time around. And that is that you're actually accountable to the American people.
So, when you make a phone call to a foreign leader, there's a stenographer on the phone, there are other people listening in, making a record of what you -- what you're doing.
And so, what this feels like, it raises the question of this is what unchecked power begins to look like, because basically, they're trying to circumvent the traditional system that provides accountability. It's not so much about the fact that -- sure, Trump knows where the bathroom is, and others will figure it out. I can show you on a map, right where your office is going to be. But the point is, what they're doing is we don't know who's giving money to that transition. They say they're not going to take any foreign money. There's no way to verify that. We don't know how much they're spending, or where they're spending.
And we don't know -- you know what -- it seems like, what they're trying to do, in pushing off some of these background checks, is figuring out ways to get people in without, again, the normal transparency. And so, it raises the question, What are they hiding?
And I do think from the first term, it was one of the things was very clear, Trump did not like having so many eyes and ears on his every move. But that is the difference between being the President of the United States and the President of a company.
COLLINS: Well, and they did say that they would disclose donors today.
But Bill, on that front, what, just knowing Trump, and knowing his team, what do you attribute this to, in saying, We'll sign this, but we're not signing the one with the DOJ yet? Because -- is it a mistrust of the FBI, as Sarah was saying there, with Chris Wray? Or what is that?
STEPIEN: They chart their own course, right? This is not a traditional president. He does things his own way. People voted for this, three years ago -- or three weeks ago. They saw this for four years, and they said, We want more.
I think it's a good thing the transition is not going to take taxpayer funds. I think it's a good thing they're going to publicly disclose their donors, not accept foreign donations, put everything on the GSA website.
[21:10:00]
This is, again, this is arguments over paperwork. This is why people -- this is why people hate D.C.
And by the way, eight years ago, at this time, Americans gave Trump a plus-one favorable rating of his transition. Today, it's plus-18. So, Americans are not viewing this process of transition, this argument inside the beltway--
COLLINS: Yes.
STEPIEN: --the same way that the insiders are.
COLLINS: And of course, I mean, this stuff does matter, though, to a degree. I mean, I think about the security clearance issue might have been described as a paperwork issue, in Trump round one. But with the staff secretary, who was pushed out, after problematic things came up in his background. I mean, we saw why those checks are important and what that looks like. But I take your point.
FINNEY: Yes. COLLINS: But Sarah, can I ask you. Because what Trump was -- you know, we're talking about day one, and whether or not there'd be a delay on what they can execute on day one. One thing that Trump has made clear, he wants to do, is tariffs, on Mexico, Canada and China, as well. Additional ones there.
Tonight, he just announced two new picks for his Economics team. Jamieson Greer is going to be the U.S. Trade Representative, obviously a critical role for, given what Trump wants to execute on. And Kevin Hassett is the Director of the National Economic Council.
When you see that, and you see Trump's threats, what do you -- do you think he executes that on -- on that on day one? Or do you view it as a Trump negotiating tactic?
MATTHEWS: I would like to quickly add to -- on talking about the transition, in reference to it just being all about documents. I will note that it is slightly concerning that this has been a delayed transition.
Because it's not just documents and paperwork and things like that. The 9/11 Commission found that the delayed transition in 2000 could have contributed to the terrorist attack because of the security gaps there.
And so, I do think that it is important that we get the ball rolling on this, the security clearances approved, especially for some of these top-level cabinet positions.
But to answer your question about the tariffs. I do think that it's more of a scare tactic, and he's using it as a negotiation tool. But this is something that he has used in his toolchest, readily, and has used it time and time again, and has threatened it to these different countries.
And so, I do think that now these countries may call his bluff, and might not follow through on his demands. And then he might have no choice but to follow through on day one and impose this 25 percent tariff on Mexico and Canada that he has threatened, because he doesn't want them to call his bluff.
So, I could imagine that if they do, though, then he will follow through with it, and then it's going to be the middle-class and consumers that are hurting the most from this. You're going to see everything, from the price of cars to groceries and everything in between, just continue to rise.
And this was why he was elected into office, because a lot of Americans were hurting, and felt like inflation was a top issue for them. And so, I think it would be a mistake, though, for him to impose these tariffs.
COLLINS: Karen, final thought from you tonight?
FINNEY: Yes, look, it's a big gamble with Americans' lives and futures, this sort of, if this is just a tactic. And one of the things that's disappointing or sort of concerning is,
he said that it was supposed to be about bringing jobs back to the United States, and it was supposed to be about lowering costs. And then today, he says -- or yesterday, he says, it's about the fentanyl crisis. Well, there's other ways, if that's the key goal, there's other ways to fight that crisis that could be more collaborative.
And again, polls are showing most Americans don't actually realize that tariffs will raise prices.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see. And of course, with some of these tariffs, we've seen the Biden team kept them on, in relation to the Chinese, the ones on China, they increased them. We'll see what happens there.
Everyone, thank you for that.
Up next here. We mentioned that ceasefire. It went into effect about 13 minutes ago, between Israel and Hezbollah. It was brokered by the United States. But there's major questions about what it means. We're going to speak to Trump's former Defense Secretary about that.
Plus, Rudy Giuliani raging in court at the judge, who was telling him he needed to pay the election workers he defamed.
His excuse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: The reality is, I have no cash.
If I wanted to call a taxi cab, I can't do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have breaking news, this hour, as you're looking at live pictures of Beirut, where, just moments ago, a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hezbollah officially went into effect. I say officially, because it was just finalized shortly after we had seen Israel bombing the suburbs of Beirut, about 20 times in two minutes.
The fighting continued to go on for hours after the agreement was announced, earlier this afternoon, here in the U.S., nearly right up until the deadline this hour. But now that we've hit that deadline, so far from what CNN could see, the skies have been quiet.
The U.S. helped broker this deal. That's why we heard from President Biden earlier, heralding this achievement that is coming in his closing days in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: Lasting security for the people of Israel and Lebanon cannot be achieved only on the battlefield. And that's why I've directed my team to work with the governments of Israel and Lebanon to forge a ceasefire to bring the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah to a close.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In the months of fighting, thousands of people have been killed, including many of Hezbollah's top leaders, Israel would note.
The Prime Minister there, Benjamin Netanyahu, is stressing that this ceasefire with Hezbollah and Israel, does not end the fight against Hamas that is still underway tonight in Gaza.
[21:20:00]
My source tonight is CNN's Global Affairs Analyst, and the former Defense Secretary under former President Trump, Mark Esper.
It's great to have you here, Secretary Esper.
Because we heard from the incoming National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz. This is coming -- obviously, it's such an interesting time, where we're in this period of this transition underway. And Mike Waltz said, quote, "Everyone is coming to the table because of President Trump. His resounding victory sent a clear message to the rest of the world that chaos won't be tolerated."
But can you just set the scene for us, in terms of the geopolitical environment that the Trump team is about to be responsible for, in less than two months, is so vastly different than what it was, when he left office four years ago.
MARK ESPER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yes. First of all, good evening, Kaitlan. It's good to be with you.
Look, you have to step back, because we have the conflict in the Middle East, right, where it's Israel against what Bibi Netanyahu describes as the seven fronts, ranging from Hezbollah and Hamas, to the Houthis, to the Syrians, Shia groups in Iraq, and then Iran.
But you have the conflict in Europe, of course, with Russia's awful invasion of Ukraine, and that's been going on now since February of 2022. And you have that.
You have friction in the South China Sea, where weekly, Chinese Coast Guard and militia ships are taking on the vessels of our allies, the Filipinos.
And so, you have other hot spots around the world bubbling as well. So, it is really a complex and dangerous international environment out there that the new Trump team will confront, when they come into office on January 20th. COLLINS: Yes, which obviously speaks to what we started the hour with, which is this transition and the agreements going on. And they've signed one that will jumpstart briefings with officials across certain agencies. Of course, we've seen how critical that is with the environment.
I wonder what you make of the refusal, so far, by the Trump team, to sign that agreement with the Justice Department, which would in part allow the FBI to start conducting security clearances for some of these top national security officials.
ESPER: Yes, I'm not sure, Kaitlan. It would just be speculation. But clearly, being able to do the background checks will be important.
It should be important to the Trump team to understand who they're nominating, but more importantly, to the Senate and the advice and consent process. And then, of course, those checks will also be important, as key players coming into the administration, not just cabinet officials, have to undergo security reviews, in order to get their clearances. So, those are two important things that you want to keep in mind.
You want to make sure those people coming into office, in the early days, have the clearances they need, to see intelligence, and to be able to read the world as they make policy decisions, all around them.
COLLINS: Yes. What does it say about Trump -- Trump's mindset, if they're not prioritizing that right now?
ESPER: Right. Again, it would just be speculation. He clearly, he's put more of a priority on selecting his cabinet, which he deserves credit for. He's well ahead of where he was, in 2016, 2017, in terms of getting people teed up and nominated. Now, they have to go through the process.
Another factor here, which people tend to forget. And I've been through the process twice, so I know. But there's a lot of preparatory work that nominees go through.
For -- in the example of the Pete Hegseth, who's been nominated for Secretary of Defense, briefings in the Pentagon to prepare him for nomination hearing, so-called murder boards to practice the hearings. The Senate's going to require hundreds of questions to be answered before the nomination is considered.
And so, this is all the preparatory work that goes into that process as well, leading up to the confirmation hearing.
COLLINS: Do you think Pete Hegseth is the right choice to take over the role that you once held? Understanding just how big that role is, that you're managing a place with an $800 billion-plus budget, a lot of civilians, a lot of military members. Do you think he's the right fit for that role?
ESPER: Well, it's the President's choice. And the President thinks he's the right fit. Clearly, President Trump-- COLLINS: Yes, I guess, does he have the necessary experience, in your view?
ESPER: Well, he comes -- he comes to the position with less experience than his predecessors. That's for sure. But the Senate's going to have to decide whether or not they think he's qualified. That's the whole reason why the advice and consent process is in there.
But look, again, he has President Trump's -- President-Elect Trump's confidence. I think the second thing is he's going to be loyal to Trump, which is what Trump puts a premium on. And third, Trump puts -- also puts a premium on his communication skills, how he does on TV. And those are -- those are the things that Trump values. And that's why you see those commonalities, in the other nominees as well.
COLLINS: You pushed back, previously, on Trump's threat to use active- duty troops at the border. You talk about that in your book.
[21:25:00]
He has now vowed to use the military to carry out his pledge to conduct mass deportations. If you were the Defense secretary, would you -- would you be OK with that?
ESPER: Well, to be clear, I push back on the use of active-duty forces with regard to the -- to law enforcement on the streets of D.C. When it comes to the deployment of active-duty troops on the border, that's been done for years by both administrations.
My view is the National Guard would be better-suited to do that because of readiness concerns. But at the end of the day, look the border -- border security is a national security problem, so there's always been some degree of active-duty troops, but mostly Guard support.
But to your question, look, when it comes to law enforcement, yes, I was opposed then, I'm opposed now, to using active-duty forces in any law enforcement role. When it comes to protests, or, I should say, insurrections, in my view there, use of the active-duty military would be as a last resort. And I said that when I took the podium on June 3rd, in Washington, D.C.
When it comes to deportation, law enforcement role for the DOD there is limited by the Posse Comitatus Act. It's proscribed for active-duty forces. National Guard forces operating in a state role is something different. They can act because they have a law enforcement component to them under the governor's authority.
COLLINS: Secretary Mark Esper, great to have you back. Thank you for joining tonight.
ESPER: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. The former Mayor of New York lost his cool during a court hearing today. That's putting it lightly. Rudy Giuliani erupted at the judge, who was pressing him on where is the money for those election workers he defamed? He said he does not have a penny.
We'll talk to someone who was in the courtroom, ahead.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It's hard to describe what happened inside a New York courtroom, today, as anything but Rudy Giuliani throwing a tantrum.
Oftentimes, it's the transcripts that tell the story. But tonight, it's really these court sketches.
Donald Trump's former attorney erupted after a federal judge asked why he had failed to turn over nearly $11 million worth of his personal assets to those two Georgia poll workers that he defamed, and ultimately owes a $148 million.
Giuliani launched into an outburst, and he told the judge, and I'm quoting Rudy Giuliani now, "The implication that I have not been diligent about it is totally incorrect... Everything I have is tied up... I don't have a car. I don't have a credit card. I don't have cash." I get my bank account that -- "Can't get my bank account that would truly be mine because they have put stop orders on, for example, my Social Security account, which they have no right to do... They put stop orders on my business account. I can't pay my bills."
The judge ceded the floor to Giuliani, but then warned that the next time he speaks out of turn like that, quote, The court will have to take action.
My sources tonight are:
Elie Honig, former federal prosecutor.
Errol Louis, CNN Political Commentator, and Host of Spectrum News' "The Big Deal with Errol Louis."
And also Jane Rosenberg, the courtroom sketch artist who captured that moment that you just saw there. She's also the Author of "Drawn Testimony: My Four Decades as a Courtroom Sketch."
Jane, given your experience in court, can you just tell us what it was like inside that room today?
JANE ROSENBERG, COURTROOM SKETCH ARTIST: His decorum has certainly changed from when I sketched him 44 years ago, as a prosecutor. He's losing it. He was wild. I mean, I feel bad for anyone who represents him. He blurts out orders at his lawyers who are at the podium. And he's interrupting all the time.
COLLINS: He's yelling at his attorneys, while they're out there?
ROSENBERG: He's yelling at his attorney. His attorney's turning around, like he doesn't know how to handle it. He's in the middle of speaking to a judge, at the podium, and behind him is shouting -- he's shouting order. That was the attorney who just quit the day after that.
And now, he has a new attorney. And so, this one tried to speak.
And when the judge told him he's not allowed to speak anymore, after he had that burst, he started shouting at him, and pointing at him. And he said, You'll have to represent yourself if you -- pro se. But if you're having a lawyer, I'm only going to hear one of you. Otherwise, you could be a witness in the trial.
But -- I forgot where I was saying.
COLLINS: What was it like to hear him saying -- I mean, we just have talked about Rudy Giuliani's fall from grace so much, and detailed it. But what is it like to hear him saying, I can't pay my bills, I don't have cash?
ROSENBERG: I didn't really feel sorry for him. I'm sure he's managing OK. And he's -- and these women, who he's defamed, they're not seeing much of it at all. I mean, allegedly -- he said, I gave the car away, but he didn't give -- he gave the keys without the paperwork. He didn't give the title. So what -- the judge even said, What good is the car without the title?
COLLINS: Yes, Elie, how does that work, where -- I mean, he does turn over his vintage Mercedes. But there's, it's -- it's not that it's worthless. It's still the car, but there's no, like, they don't actually own it, because they don't have the title for it yet.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, there are a lot of people, who Rudy Giuliani owes money to. He owes the most to Ms. Moss and Ms. Freeman, a $140-plus-million-dollars. Nobody's ever going to be made whole. Even if Rudy actually were able, or willing to turn over his asset, he would never give them a fraction of what they're owed.
To a point that Jane made and you made before. Rudy Giuliani's fall from grace has been beyond epic. It's been Shakespearean. I mean, it's hard to remember, but in the 80s, Jane, when you started, little before my time, but he was a revered figure in New York City. He was the king of St. Andrews Plaza, down where the courthouse is. He was the most powerful person there. He was feared and respected.
[21:35:00]
But that arrogance also did poke through in the 80s, right? And now, that arrogance and hubris has taken him all the way down.
COLLINS: So, Errol, contrast that, that picture that Elie just painted there, of what Giuliani used to be like to -- listen to what he said outside of court today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: The reality is, I have no cash. It's all tied up. So right now, if I wanted to call a taxi cab, I can't do it. I don't have a credit card. I don't have a checking account. I have no place I can go take cash out, except the little bit that I saved, and it's getting down to almost nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SPECTRUM NEWS HOST, "THE BIG DEAL WITH ERROL LOUIS": It really is a Shakespearean fall from grace.
Although I will tell you, shortly before I came over here, he was doing his radio show, as usual, had a few 100 listeners online, and I don't know how many over the radio, and he was attacking some judge out west and so forth, and not the least bit apologetic.
So, there are some people, including of some billionaires, who have taken care of Rudy Giuliani. They let him fly on their private jet. They give him a job, hosting a radio show. He's getting paid something. He's clearly not doing it for free.
COLLINS: He flew first class, in front of me, on the way to the convention, the Republican convention.
HONIG: Cool (ph).
COLLINS: I had gotten upgraded, and he was in front of me.
LOUIS: Right, so he couldn't get a cab, and he didn't have any cash in his pocket, but he had a first-class ticket. And this is the kind of chicanery, this is the kind of inconsistencies, that I think of making the judge visibly angry, and really sort of had him threaten to sanction Rudy Giuliani if he continues with this.
COLLINS: Well, the other part that I thought was interesting was they're asking -- there's an upcoming trial Elie, in this case, ongoing saga. And his mayor -- his attorney said that, he couldn't make it because he has to consult with Trump, and said, He regularly consults and deals directly with Trump on issues that are facing the incoming administration that is afoot, as well as inauguration events.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: The judge didn't seem to care and said, Your social calendar is not important here.
HONIG: Judge said, Too bad.
I mean, Rudy has -- this is just one small part of Rudy's legal problems. Let's remember, he's under two indictments, state indictments in Georgia and Arizona. There's nothing Donald Trump can do to help him there. Pardons won't do anything on those state cases.
He owes various people verdicts, defamation verdicts. He's had his law license stripped in D.C. and New York.
Again, all to this fall from grace, he has very well -- he's never going to be able to outrun all of his legal problems, no matter what he does.
COLLINS: Speaking about running legal problems, you once sketched Elie Honig, I hear?
ROSENBERG: Oh, yes.
COLLINS: It's during the John Gotti trial.
ROSENBERG: I did, yes.
(GRAPHIC IS SHOWN)
HONIG: Jane -- there it is.
COLLINS: Any thoughts?
HONIG: OK, so.
COLLINS: Oh, my God, that's epic.
HONIG: This is -- Jane is a masterful artist. She makes me look six- foot-four there.
COLLINS: Yes, seriously.
ROSENBERG: Well--
HONIG: Which I may or may not be. People can't tell on TV, when we're sitting down.
ROSENBERG: The lawyer--
HONIG: Yes, this is John Gotti.
COLLINS: You're actually six-six.
HONIG: This is John Gotti in front, who's our defendant. Charlie Carnesi, the defense lawyer who since passed away. The Judge, Castel. There I am.
ROSENBERG: But Carnesi is kind of short compared -- you have--
(CROSSTALK)
HONIG: It's all relative, Jane.
ROSENBERG: So you are six-feet tall compared to him.
COLLINS: Did Elie pay you to do that?
ROSENBERG: No.
HONIG: No. Jane sold it to somebody rather.
COLLINS: Oh, Jane.
HONIG: Listen, it's an honor to be drawn by Jane.
ROSENBERG: Oh, thank you. HONIG: It really is. And you do a great job.
ROSENBERG: Thank you. Thank you.
COLLINS: Honor to have you all here, especially Jane. Thank you all.
ROSENBERG: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. Ozempic and other anti-obesity drugs could get a lot less expensive for millions of Americans who need them, if something that Biden is proposing goes through. The question is, is the Trump team going to block it? We'll talk about it after this.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're getting some new picks in from President-Elect Donald Trump, tonight, filling out what his public health office is going to look like when he regains power in about two months from now.
He has named Dr. Jay Bhattacharya as his pick to lead the National Institutes of Health. He is a professor at Stanford. He was a big critic of strict lockdown policies during the COVID pandemic.
Trump, tonight, is also naming Jim O'Neill to serve as the Deputy secretary at the Health and Human Services Department. That would put him under Robert F. Kennedy Jr., if he is confirmed ultimately, as the secretary there. Jim O'Neill previously served as the Principal Associate Deputy of that department.
Both, I should note, are close allies of the billionaire investor and Republican megadonor, Peter Thiel.
We'll continue to look at those picks, because they will have to be -- Jay at least, will have to be confirmed by the Senate. Obviously, that is going to be an intensive process, going forward, as soon as Trump takes office.
And all of this is coming as tonight, the Biden administration is still making moves on its way out. They want the federal government to cover expensive anti-obesity drugs, like Ozempic and Wegovy, for more than 7 million Americans who are on Medicare and Medicaid.
This is a proposal that is basically reinterpreted -- reinterpreting the law to treat obesity as a chronic illness. And what it would mean is that it could slash out-of-pocket costs for patients by up to 95 percent. But, and here's a key but, the change would not go into effect until 2026, of a year into President-Elect Trump's term.
And as the person that Trump has picked to oversee Medicare and Medicaid, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., he has a different proposal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: Giving good food, three meals a day, to every man, woman and child in our country, we could solve the obesity and diabetes epidemic overnight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the former acting CDC Director under President Obama, Dr. Richard Besser.
And Dr. Besser, it's great to have you here.
We're getting in these new picks. We're seeing what the Trump health portfolio is going to look like, if he gets his way.
But as the Biden team is still trying to make these moves, on the way out, what's your view of how they want to reinterpret this rule?
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER CDC ACTING DIRECTOR: Well, Kaitlan, I think that it's important that one's access to medications, medications with proven benefits, shouldn't be dependent on one's income and ability to pay out of pocket.
And these drugs have been shown to be very effective at reducing obesity. And severe obesity, we know is a big risk factor for diabetes and heart disease.
[21:45:00]
I don't argue with Mr. Kennedy, about the importance of ensuring that everyone in our country has access to three good meals a day. But that's not the case, currently. And anything we do to increase people's access to healthy food would be a terrific thing. It's been -- unfortunately, there are a number of studies that have shown that just giving people access to healthy food does not reduce weight enough to be able to address obesity, and prevent some of the severe consequences.
And so, I would not argue with him. If the incoming administration wants to raise the minimum wage, so people have enough money to buy healthy food, that would be terrific. Other ways of taking on access to healthy food would be very, very welcome.
But I do worry, if a secretary coming in, is going to use that role to prevent access of needed drugs to people who are on Medicare and Medicaid. There are 27 million people in our country, who lack health insurance altogether. Medicaid is becoming--
COLLINS: Yes.
BESSER: --more and more challenging for people to stay on.
But if people with those insurances don't get access to these drugs, then it becomes something only for the wealthy.
COLLINS: But here's my question. Because, one, this would be really expensive for taxpayers. I mean, the Associated Press, I saw earlier, had one estimate that it would cost around $35 billion over the next decade. Some people may argue, Well, that cost would be worth the benefit that it would have for people who could use this.
But on the aspect of this that this is happening two months before Trump takes office, if RFK Jr. is confirmed, could he -- could he feasibly block this move by the Biden team?
BESSER: Well, there are many steps it would have to go through before this would become something someone could pay for, with their Medicaid or Medicare. So, there are opportunities for a new administration coming in, to block that. That's something they would be able to consider.
COLLINS: Dr. Richard Besser, as always, great to have you. Thank you.
BESSER: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. We are hearing, in a notable interview from some of Harris' top campaign advisers, looking at back and dissecting what they think went wrong, as we are also hearing from Harris herself tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS (D), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: That fight's still in us, and it burns strong.
Don't ever let anybody or any circumstance take your power from you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're hearing tonight from Vice President Harris, for the first time since her concession speech to the -- after the election, with Donald Trump, about three weeks ago. This is in a virtual call that happened, where Harris was thanking grassroots supporters, and telling them to keep up the fight that fueled her 107-day campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: I know this is an uncertain time. I'm clear-eyed about that. I know you're clear-eyed about it. And it feels heavy. And I just have to remind you, don't you ever let anybody take your power from you. You have the same power that you did before November 5th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That message is coming as the team behind her campaign is also speaking out about what they think went wrong.
This was in a candid interview that happened with Pod Save America, where one senior adviser to the campaign, Stephanie Cutter, explained Harris' struggle to distance herself from an unpopular President Biden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANIE CUTTER, HARRIS CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: We were never going to satisfy anybody.
She felt like she was part of the administration. So why should she look back and pick out, cherry-pick some things that she would have done differently, when she was part of it. And she also, she had tremendous loyalty to President Biden.
Imagine if we said, Well, we would have taken this approach on the border. Imagine the round of stories coming out after that, of people saying, Well, she never said that in the meeting, or What meeting and when she said this, or, I remember when she did that. And it was just, it wasn't going to give us what we needed, because it wouldn't be a clean break.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My Democratic source tonight is Congressman Tom Suozzi of New York.
And it's great to have you here, Congressman.
Because you always speak so bluntly about your party. We talked about that with your election win. And so, first, just on hearing from Harris, tonight, her message to grassroots supporters, what do you make of that?
REP. TOM SUOZZI (D-NY): Well, thanks, Kaitlan. Thank you so much.
And listen, people have just got to recognize that we've got to deal with the reality in front of us. President Trump is going to be the president again. The Republicans, they're going to control the Senate, and they're going to have a narrow majority in the House.
And we have to do our jobs to, in some cases, resist, fight back against things we think are irresponsible, like we did when President Trump was president before, when he tried to get rid of the Affordable Care Act, to get rid of DACA.
But in other cases, we have to work together with the administration, to accomplish things that the American people want done, things like the border, for example. Let's work together to solve problems, and make America a better place, and try and move forward together as a country.
COLLINS: Well, and as everyone's looking back, with Harris, specifically. I see what you saying about what it's going to look like, come January.
[21:55:00]
But when you hear from Harris, when you hear from her campaign and the advisers, who talk about, this is why they felt like they couldn't come out and distance themselves from very unpopular positions on immigration, something that was a cornerstone of your campaign, how do you hear that, based on your experiences?
SUOZZI: Well, listen, you're the Vice President of the United States of America, working with the President. You've been picked to this very august job by the President. And there's a human aspect here. She's loyal to the President. I mean, that's understandable. He gave her the opportunity of a lifetime. So that loyalty is an admirable quality.
If people want to second-guess things. I thought she ran a good campaign. One of the lacking things was there wasn't enough vision for the future, about what you were going to do to solve the problems of the future, so. But that's what it is. I mean, we are where we are now. Now, we need to look forward as to what we need to do to make the country a better place.
COLLINS: Yes. They also defended the media strategy, and what that looked like, and where she was going and what -- it looked different for both candidates, frankly, this time around.
Trump was obviously quite prolific on podcasts.
And there was -- there was discussion of her doing Joe Rogan, and sitting down with him, given just how many people he reaches. And of course, Rogan wanted Harris to come to Texas to his studio. That was difficult, they said, on the time. But listen to--
SUOZZI: I want to go on Joe Rogan. I'm ready to go on Joe Rogan.
COLLINS: OK, well, if he's watching--
SUOZZI: The media is--
COLLINS: --we'll make sure he knows that.
SUOZZI: The media is so fractured.
COLLINS: Go ahead.
SUOZZI: The media is so fractured today. I pay a lot more attention than I used to, to local papers, to the weekly papers. Everybody who reads a local paper is voting in the election. I look at my daily paper, locally. I look at the local news programs. I look at the national news programs, like yours.
We also have to look a lot more at social media than we used to, and figure out how to get into different audiences. And we have to do some of the new media and podcasts.
It's all very fractured. People are getting their news from different sources. And we have to figure out, as elected officials, all of us, but certainly the Democrats as a party, how to get into all these different places that are so fractured, so that we can carry the same message, through each of these different platforms, as to how we're going to make people's lives better.
How we're going to fight to make them safer? How we're going to make them healthier? How we're going to make them more economically prosperous? How we're going to address the concerns they have about the border? How we're going to address climate change?
We have to talk in all of these different mediums to try and get the message out.
COLLINS: Yes.
SUOZZI: It's a new world, as far as media, and we have to recognize that.
COLLINS: Well, I'm glad you point out that that's how you feel, because I want you to listen to what Stephanie Cutter said, about just ultimately why that Rogan sit-down did not pan out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUTTER: We did go to Houston, and she gave a great speech at an amazing event.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Beyonce event?
CUTTER: The -- yes. Well, I'm going to call it reproductive freedom, and because Texas is ground zero for the impact of these Trump abortion bans.
We were hoping to be able to fit it in around that, and ultimately weren't able to do it. As it turns out, that was the day that Trump was taping his Joe Rogan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I don't think anyone would, in good faith, argue that that is what made her -- broke this election. But do you think it would have -- would have helped her to take a tack, like what you were just kind of laying out there?
SUOZZI: I have no idea as to whether it would change the election or not. A lot of it has to do with, What's the message? What would be the message in the Joe Rogan interview that would appeal to what is probably a young male audience?
So, I think that the Vice President Harris did an excellent job, reaching out to women throughout the country.
And there was a big gender gap, as we all know, and Trump leaned into that with Vance, and leaned into it with his like Hulk Hogan and the football player. And it worked. I mean, it worked as far as getting him that audience.
But a lot of this looking-backwards stuff is sometimes very frustrating. We've all got different opinions as to what it is.
I'm looking forward. People reject extremism. They want us to use commonsense. They want us to secure the border. They want us to protect their public safety. They want to do a better job, to make sure that they can live the American Dream, so they can make enough money--
COLLINS: Yes.
SUOZZI: --so they can buy a house, educate their kids, pay for health insurance--
COLLINS: So lay that out for me--
SUOZZI: --and retire one day without being scared. That's--
COLLINS: In the next 30 seconds or so, lay that out for me what that looks like, over the next two years, for your party.
SUOZZI: Democrats have got to get back to the basic message of talking to people about what they care about. And to do that, elected officials need to listen to the people.
[22:00:00]
I remember, when President Trump first won, in 2016, I went to a big post-mortem, 50 people around the table, and I remember a union guy say, Hey, you know, the Democrats used to show up at the church picnics and the bars. We don't see them anymore. That's a symbol to me that we're not out with the people, listening to the people, about what they care about.
If you listen to the people, you'll have the confidence to stand up against the experts, to stand up against the constituency groups, because you'll know that's what the people want.
COLLINS: We'll see what that looks like, over the next two to four years.
Congressman Tom Suozzi, great to have your perspective. Thank you.
SUOZZI: Congratulations on your big new job too.
COLLINS: Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be quite a busy four years. Thank you for that, Congressman.
Thank you all so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" is up next.
