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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Hegseth Confirmation In Peril As GOP Senators Share Concerns; Trump Team Agrees To Allow FBI Background Checks On Nominees; South Korea's President Facing Growing Calls To Resign. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired December 03, 2024 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --another way to access this season is to go to our online grief community that we just started, on CNN.com/allthereisonline.

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The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.

We are live from the center of the political universe, near the President-elect's Mar-a-Lago Club, where, right now they are scrambling to save Trump's Pentagon pick, as CNN is learning that Pete Hegseth's nomination is in serious trouble.

I'm Kaitlan Collins, in Florida. And this is THE SOURCE.

There is breaking news in the air, here in South Florida, tonight, where, just over the causeway of Mar-a-Lago, they have been getting word from Washington that another of President-elect Trump's most important Cabinet picks is potentially in serious trouble tonight.

While Pete Hegseth was back on Capitol Hill today, making a full-court press to lead the Pentagon, some of the Republican senators who will decide his fate are signaling that they're uncertain if they'll back him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I have read all the articles. I have seen all the allegations. And Mr. Hegseth is going to have to address them.

I want to know if they're true.

Everyone should receive a background check.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the FBI?

KENNEDY: I would prefer to have the FBI perform them.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Some of these articles are very disturbing. He obviously has a chance to defend himself here, but some of this stuff is, it's going to be difficult.

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): Of course, it's concerning. But I look forward to visiting with Pete about it, and seeing. I'm interested in who Pete Hegseth is today.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): I believe that we need an FBI background check to evaluate the allegations. We need to have the normal committee process of questionnaires, and questionnaires about his background.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, Pete Hegseth will be back on Capitol Hill, tomorrow, not to meet with Senate Republicans, but instead to meet with House Republicans. That's a strategy that has raised some eyebrows, given House members don't get a say on his nomination.

But as that is playing out, I have new reporting on the Trump strategy to save Pete Hegseth. I've learned that he's expected to sit down, likely tomorrow, for an interview with Fox News. That's noteworthy given most, if not all of Trump's Cabinet picks have been told not to do any media appearances until after they've been confirmed. It's also notable because Fox News was his employer until just a few days ago.

And just a few moments ago, I was told, his mother is also expected to appear on the channel for an interview. That comes after she was inserted into his confirmation drama, when The New York Times published an email from Pete Hegseth's mom that she sent him, amid his divorce in 2018, accusing him of abusing and mistreating women. She later apologized, she said, and that the email was sent in anger.

Now, Hegseth himself is likely to face questions about the allegations that are weighing down his nomination, assault allegations which he's denied, and others about his alcohol use. Some of those took the Trump team by surprise, partly because until today, the transition team had yet signed an agreement -- yet to sign an agreement with the Justice Department, allowing the FBI to start background checks.

Now, Trump's team had considered bypassing the FBI and using private investigators instead. But a growing number of Republican senators were vocal that they wanted those FBI background checks.

Now, that being said, it is not clear whether all the names picked for the positions that require Senate confirmation will be sent to the FBI, for that vetting process, given Trump has long-harbored hostility toward that agency.

Here with me tonight, to start off, is CNN's Kristen Holmes.

Obviously, as Mar-a-Lago is kind of monitoring all this, they have people who are with Pete Hegseth, that are going up there, to these -- to these meetings. Do they seem to be growing more concerned, over at Mar-a-Lago, about how his nomination is going to potentially stand tonight.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they certainly didn't like what they heard, on Capitol Hill today. I mean, today was very different than yesterday.

Yesterday, we saw these senators come out. They said they hadn't really even asked him about the allegations. They said they were happy with their meetings with him.

It was a completely different story, today. We saw so many of these allies of Donald Trump's, and senators, coming out and saying they had concerns, that they had more questions, that they believed that he should be vetted more thoroughly. That is going to alarm anyone in Trump's orbit.

Because, particularly when you look at the math, remember the entire reason that Matt Gaetz withdrew his name was because Donald Trump was making personal phone calls to these senators, and learned that there were just too many nos. And he was told by people close to him, he would have to expend too much political capital to get Gaetz confirmed. He has a lot less invested in Pete Hegseth than he had in Matt Gaetz.

So, when they're watching these senators come out, and watching this process happen, that's obviously going to be of concern to them.

COLLINS: Well, hearing from Lindsey Graham. I mean, you heard from Susan Collins. I think she was always -- you know, people were skeptical--

HOLMES: Right.

[21:05:00]

COLLINS: --of whether that would happen. But to hear Lindsey Graham talk about the difficulty. I mean, that is one of Donald Trump's closest allies on Capitol Hill.

HOLMES: Well, exactly. And I would assume that the two of them, Donald Trump and Lindsey Graham, are going to have a conversation at some point, particularly given the kind of warning shots that we just heard from Lindsey Graham. I mean, the fact that he came out there and said this, means that he actually does have true concerns about this. And that does give the people who are sitting at Mar-a-Lago, watching all this, cause for concern.

COLLINS: And so, when they look at that, I mean, the question is, ultimately, does this come down to Trump himself, making this decision?

Because when I was thinking about -- you know, obviously there's allegations, even from his own mom in this email that she later said she apologized for, about sexual misconduct, sexual assault, that he has denied at one point, but also about the alcohol.

Because Trump obviously -- famously, does not drink. He doesn't like people who are big drinkers. And I think that was a question of how that would weigh, as Trump's looking at this.

HOLMES: And that's certainly something that people in Trump's orbit are watching. The alcohol use, in particular.

Donald Trump's team, and people close to Trump, have told me that they really do believe that the allegations, in 2017, of sexual assault, were he said, she said, regardless of the police report, regardless of the payoff.

However, when it comes to the alcohol use in particular, and these report after report that we have seen, of him falling asleep at events, of him getting so drunk he's chanting inappropriate things, going to a strip club? This is all in the whistleblower report that The New Yorker published. Those are things that are going to concern Donald Trump.

There are people that I know, who are close to Donald Trump, who are heavy drinkers, who never drink around his presence, because they don't want to be considered a drinker, in front of the former President, now President-elect, because it's something he looks down on.

He has a very complicated relationship with it. He himself doesn't drink. His brother was an alcoholic. He has talked about this openly. And part of the reason that he admires so many people, in his orbit, particularly think about Doug Burgum's wife, for example, is because she is a recovering addict.

COLLINS: Yes.

HOLMES: That's something that he believes is something that should be cherished, if you are recovering. That is something that's going to play into this, particularly as he watches that closely.

COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point. Kristen Holmes, thank you for that.

And as we were talking about the background checks aspect of this, my inside source tonight is Andrew McCabe, who served as the Deputy Director at the FBI.

And obviously, as we talk about what this looks like, now that they have signed this agreement with the Justice Department, which means the FBI will be able to conduct background checks now. Can you just walk us through how that process works, how exhaustive an FBI background check is?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: It is a massive process, Kaitlan. And it's a little bit different, depending on the client that you're serving. In this case, it's obviously the incoming White House, the President-elect's transition team. But it is absolutely thorough. There's an extensive interview that takes place with the subject of that background check. And then, investigators, all over the country, if necessary, and foreign countries, if that's necessary, go out and make contact with the people they need to, to substantiate the details of that person's life.

It's essentially important, particularly to the senators, because it is the -- it is a high-quality work product. It's apolitical. They're not drawing a conclusion with respect to, should this person have the job or not. They are simply presenting the facts that might be relevant to an assessment of their suitability.

And the senators are used to seeing the FBI kind of standard background check. They're familiar with it, and they expect it as part of the process.

COLLINS: So, if you're a Pete Hegseth, for example. I mean, obviously there's a lot coming out about him that I've heard from some of his allies, they believe, is unfair, because it's from -- some of the allegations are from decades ago, with regards to drinking and his past behavior.

I mean, if you're looking at a background check from the FBI, from recent interviews with neighbors or co-workers, I mean what kind of things could that uncover?

MCCABE: They're going to ask all kinds of questions about these things that have been reported.

They're going to seek out people, who might have been witnesses to these -- to these episodes, to these statements, to this drinking activity, whatever that might be, in an effort to simply vet the allegation, to say, Yes, this is credible. We spoke to these witnesses. They were all consistent. This is what they reported. Or, No, we could not corroborate these allegations in any way. That's going to be relevant to the senators.

They're going to ask all kinds of questions of neighbors, of work colleagues, of supervisors, things about whether or not that person seems loyal to the United States government, whether or not they imbibe in the use of alcohol or other restricted drugs, whether or not they've ever observed those people, under the influence of drugs, at work or socially, anything like that. It is a very extensive, what we call, a full-scope background check.

COLLINS: OK. So, when you -- when you do those background checks, can the FBI do a background check for someone, if the transition team has not submitted that person's name to them?

[21:10:00]

MCCABE: No, they will not perform this sort of checks. They only do these checks because the transition team requests them. So, they're not going out there and investigating people, just because they think it's interesting or cool. There's no predication or factual basis for conducting an investigation other than the request that you get from the transition team.

COLLINS: So, if they don't submit their -- but, I guess, my question here is because it's not clear to us. We've asked. But it's not been affirmed to us, whether or not the team plans to submit everyone's name.

So, if Trump submits four of his Cabinet picks' names, but doesn't submit four others, that means those other four would not get background checks. Is that right?

MCCABE: Yes, that's what that means. Because the FBI doesn't have any control over that.

COLLINS: Right.

MCCABE: But the check there would be the senators, right? The senators are going to say, like, Why did we get background checks on these people, but we didn't get them on those people? We want them on everybody. So, I actually think that would be a hard thing for the transition team to get away with.

COLLINS: Yes.

Andrew McCabe, as always, thank you for your expertise on how that process works.

MCCABE: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: And I want to bring in my political sources, who are here tonight.

CNN Political Commentator, Bakari Sellers.

And Trump's 2020 campaign manager, and the former White House Political Director, Bill Stepien.

So Bill, I want to ask you about your background check, in a moment.

But first, Bill, can you just tell me, from your perspective, as a Republican, as someone who's worked for Trump, what it says to you about how the Trump team is feeling about Pete Hegseth's nomination, given, they're putting him out on TV, when none of the other Cabinet picks are going out.

And also, they're scheduling, according to what I heard tonight, for his mom to even appear on Fox News, tomorrow, for an interview.

BILL STEPIEN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I think it's really smart. I mean, this is a campaign, and the transition team is treating it just like a campaign. I mean, they're pulling out all the stops. They're even pulling out the mom card. I mean, of course, they want Hegseth on TV, right? It's his home. It's his base. It's his strength. He's really good at it. I think it's a great tactic.

And don't forget, a lot of those Republican senators watch Fox News. So, this is going to be, if done right, an infomercial on behalf of Hegseth.

And maybe most importantly, right, a lot of Republican primary voters, back home, for these Republican senators, watch Fox News. So, that might be a little subtle hint to wishy-washy Republicans, that Republican primary voters, back home, are paying attention to the votes of their senators.

COLLINS: Bakari, what does it say to you, about the view, internally, of where his nomination stands?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (D) FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: I mean, I think most people believe that Hegseth is unqualified for the position, particularly to run the preeminent military force in the country over, as Secretary of Defense. They believe that, along the same way they believed about Matt Gaetz, who eventually bowed out. And they also believe the same thing about Tulsi Gabbard.

The difference, though, is I believe this cake is somewhat baked. And by going out and doing Fox News, and by just making sure that people like Lindsey Graham, for example, are comfortable, this is a lot like -- and this is for you, Kaitlan. You'd probably appreciate this a little bit more. But this is a lot like the -- maybe the college football playoff committee, who selected Alabama over South Carolina and other rightful teams. Because that cake is already baked.

And I believe, Pete Hegseth, regardless of whether or not he's qualified, or not, is going to be able to sneak in regardless.

COLLINS: Well, I'm not going to make a comment about head-to-head matchups and strength of schedule.

But Bill, when you look at this, in terms of the background check process, and how that go -- happens, going forward. I talked to someone close to Pete Hegseth, who said they're not worried about what a background check would turn up on him, if Trump does submit his name for that.

I mean, you've had a background check done before. What was that process like? How extensive did it get for your network of family and friends?

STEPIEN: It's intense. I mean, more than anything, they're trying to figure out if you could be compromised by our enemies.

They're trying to figure out if someone could get some sort of leverage over you, and largely, who can be compromised, right? They profile as people with personal problems. Do you have family or spousal issues, money problems, gambling issues, substance abuse issues. And these are all profiles of people in tough spots, right, who can be targeted and picked off. And that's what they're trying to figure out.

It is an intense process. You start with a ton of paperwork that makes you actually wonder if you actually want the job. Business associates, travel, family, friends. And then, as Andrew noted, the FBI spends a lot of time on the ground in a really intense fashion.

They sought out my friends, people that I forgot, long forgotten about. They interviewed each of them in-person. They would travel to them, if necessary. They knocked on the doors of my parents' neighbors. They even visited a gym that I used to be a member at. They stopped a class to interview the manager.

[21:15:00]

So, these guys don't mess around. They're serious. They're really good at it. They are efficient. And it's super-intense.

COLLINS: Bakari, one -- you heard from Lindsey Graham, earlier. Obviously, a close ally of Trump's. Who was talking about the difficulty he think Hegseth's will face here, saying, he needs a chance to defend himself. But he did say it's going to be a difficult road.

Another person that Republicans are closely watching is Joni Ernst. She's obviously the first female combat veteran -- veteran who's elected to the Senate. She's raised some concerns about Hegseth's comments that he's made previously about women serving in combat roles. He said they shouldn't, in his view.

If he's on the Hill, meeting with people like that, how do they -- how does he win over someone like her?

SELLERS: I'm not sure he can. I do believe, though, that there are a lot of senators, Lindsey Graham and others, who you're going to see give cover to Joni Ernst, and allow her to be the one to make this decision. She won't be the lone vote against Pete Hegseth. She won't be a person out there just with Susan Collins, kind of out there, as one or two Republicans.

If Joni Ernst cannot find a way to support Pete Hegseth, his nomination will fail. I mean, that's just a simple fact. She's also a victim of sexual assault. She talks about it often. She is one of -- although we disagree politically, she's one of the stronger members of the United States Senate.

And when you have anybody who talks about, for example, women not serving in combat? And I will just use, someone like Tammy Baldwin, and others, who've actually served and been injured in service. And you serve with them daily, although you don't find yourself on the same team, you do find yourself, as someone who wants the absolute best for this country's military, regardless of the party they serve. And Pete just has a bunch of questions to answer.

When you have -- when the question which you have to answer are this voluminous, I mean, I--

COLLINS: Yes.

SELLERS: The old, simple saying is, where there's smoke there's fire. So, we'll see if he's able to do that and soothe (ph) Joni Ernst -- Ernst, excuse me. COLLINS: Bill, I got to ask you, because another person that will also require Senate confirmation is Charlie Kushner. That is Jared Kushner's father. And he has been picked by Trump to serve as the Ambassador to France.

Chris Christie, who prosecuted Charlie Kushner for, among other things, hiring a prostitute to seduce his brother-in-law, and secretly tape it, weighed in on that today. I want you to listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY: I'm not the least bit surprised. This is who Donald Trump is. And really, I think that the appointment of Kushner is like a human middle finger. That's what it is. Like, I can do whatever I want. And how about this? Now I'm going to do this. See how you like that. And see if any of you have the guts to say no to that. That's what Charles Kushner has become. And now I do wonder about Mr. Kushner, why he would want to drag all this up?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I mean, you used to work for Chris Christie. What did you make of what he said about that?

STEPIEN: He certainly has an opinion on it. He was obviously personally involved in the prosecution of Mr. Kushner. And only in New Jersey politics, do you have a story like that. I think this is -- certainly, he's entitled his opinion, and he may not be wrong.

But this is -- this is his daughter's father-in-law. I mean, it could be simple as that -- as simple as that. Ambassadorships, these are -- these are plum positions. These go to donors and friends and allies, and maybe father-in-laws. I think it could be as simple as that.

COLLINS: Bill Stepien. Bakari Sellers. Great to have you both here, and thank you.

Up next tonight. My source is one of Trump's former personal attorneys, and a former prosecutor at the Justice Department. What he thinks about FBI background checks, and the final sign on today by the Trump team.

Also, there are growing calls tonight for South Korea's president to resign after he plunged his nation into absolute chaos today, by declaring and then reversing martial law.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We're live in West Palm Beach, tonight, just a few miles from Mar-a-Lago, as you can see here. That is the center of the Trump transition, as he is preparing to be sworn in next month.

Tonight, his team has reached a deal with the Justice Department that will allow the FBI to conduct background checks on his senior officials. It still remains unclear if that means the Transition will submit all of their names to be vetted.

But sources are telling us that Trump and his allies think the FBI system is slow, and plagued with issues that could get in the way of implementing his agenda quickly.

And publicly, Trump has made his disdain for the Bureau, quite clear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: I really believe it's actually a fraud, what the FBI did.

The FBI should be ashamed of themselves.

These are dirty players. These are bad people.

We need an honest Justice Department. We need an honest FBI. And we need it fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My next source is a former DOJ prosecutor, and one of Trump's former personal attorneys. Jim Trusty is here with me in West Palm Beach.

Thank you for being here.

JIM TRUSTY, FORMER COUNSEL FOR TRUMP, FORMER DOJ PROSECUTOR: Sure thing.

COLLINS: Now that this has happened, and they have made this -- struck this agreement with the DOJ, to start with these background checks. Would -- do you think that they should submit all of them to the FBI and just have all of them be vetted?

TRUSTY: Yes, I think it's a tough spot to not do that. It's kind of a conspicuous inconsistency, if you cherry-pick, and say, We're OK with the FBI on some, but not others. I just, I don't think that's a great look. I think the senators that are on the edge are probably going to be very distrustful of that kind of cherry-picking. So, I think you got to go all-in.

[21:25:00]

COLLINS: But what do you think that's like internally? Because there's a reason this is a month delayed. I mean, Trump, as you know, you used to represent him, does not trust the FBI, inherently. He has very hostile attitude towards them, as you just saw there.

So, if they're doing a background check, and there is an issue with someone, I mean, is there not a belief that Trump would just maybe override that if he felt like he could?

TRUSTY: Well, background check, there are some frailties to it. I mean, one of it is, you're kind of at the mercy of the investigator that you get for that check. There are different levels of competence and skill there.

They're also not wizards about determining who's credible. If you have a he said, she said, they might be able to give you information about whether they think it's substantiated, but they're not like proving cases beyond a reasonable doubt.

So, they really give you more like flags than they give you judgments. They give the senators opportunities to say, This is an issue I want to drill down on, or not. But they're not really giving you conclusive, These are the absolute facts, when there's a controversy.

COLLINS: One thing that the Trump team had wanted to do, and talked about, was totally bypassing the FBI, not doing any background checks, and just having private investigators carry out these -- these investigations.

Would those investigators, though, have access to the level of information that the FBI does?

TRUSTY: Yes. And probably not. I mean, I think a lot of the background investigations don't really require a bunch of extraneous searching for classified materials, for instance. But they could, in the context of people that have some sort of law enforcement or military background.

So, I think that there -- it's really fraught with peril to go with the private. And I think if you go with a private entity that does this, it's not that they're not competent. But it's never going to have kind of that veneer that you want, if you're pushing candidates through the Senate.

COLLINS: What's your sense of what you're hearing tonight from the Senate? Because, I mean, there does seem to be a notable change in what these Republican senators were saying, over a week ago, and what they're saying now, as more stories have come out about Pete Hegseth.

TRUSTY: Yes. You know what, I think that the best thing Pete can do, through his surrogates, is focus on what this guy can actually bring to the table substantively, and try to just power through the background check issues. But look, the bottom line of it is, there's going to be questions.

I look at -- I heard what Lindsey Graham said tonight, and I was struck by the difference in his tone.

Remember, with Kavanaugh being pilloried with kind of borderline material, information that was not particularly substantiated, but was very sensational? I thought that was one of Graham's finest moments. I mean, he railed about the lack of fair process, when it came to Kavanaugh being ambushed.

Now, with Pete, he's basically saying, Let's hear it out.

And so that's, to me, that's a pivotal point that the President's people need to get to, is which Lindsey Graham is going to be showing up, when it comes down to the vote.

COLLINS: Well, I think the one difference I would maybe note is with Kavanaugh, the allegation was from when he was younger.

Obviously, these -- some of these are way more recent, including the email from Pete Hegseth's mom was from 2018, which she later said, she apologized for immediately, and that she sent in the heat of the moment when she was upset.

As the FBI is looking into this, how do they investigate allegations about drinking, or about sexual misconduct or even sexual assault, as we saw, which he denied, out at Monterey, California.

TRUSTY: Yes. I mean, look, they're not credibility wizards. They don't have some inherent ability to come to an absolute conclusion.

What they can do is interview witnesses, try to gather contemporaneous reports and complaints, and make a call whether they think it's at least substantiated to the point of making it in a report. That's a tough -- yes, it's a tough ride when you're talking about dated material.

When you have a he said, she said, they have to look at like what happened at the time of the investigation. Can they access law enforcement records? Can they access the non-disclosure agreement? As I understand it, there's a lot of non-corroboration for the apparent victim, and there's a lot of corroboration for Pete Hegseth.

But that's not, you know, they may not go that deep. They may just basically say, Here is the complaint, here's how it wrapped up without a criminal case. And kind of leave it for the others to question.

COLLINS: You've had a background check. Do you get to see what that background check looks like? Or do they just turn it over to the Trump transition team?

TRUSTY: Yes, I'd like to know if my mom had any emails that were in my background check.

But no, I went through a number of background checks at DOJ. I had highest level of clearance in some of my positions there. And no, you don't get to see it. You know what's happening. You know your neighbor -- you know, it's a good time to be nice to your neighbor, because they're going to go ask, how are you.

But there's not a whole lot of transparency for the actual person himself, at least not contemporaneously. You might be able to get it later on the backend.

COLLINS: Yes. Jim Trusty, thank you for that, and for joining us here in Palm Beach.

Up next tonight. We're going to go to South Korea, where there are breaking developments, after the President there declared martial law, then lifted it, hours later, as protesters are flooding the streets, as some are demanding that he resign. [21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, South Korean lawmakers are issuing an ultimatum to their nation's president. Resign or be impeached.

Now, this comes after the South Korean President, Yoon Suk Yeol, was forced to lift his declaration of martial law, which had thrown the democratic country into political chaos, overnight.

Right now, you're looking at live pictures of hundreds of police officers, who are still guarding South Korea's parliament, after a night of protest. The scene is starkly different from just hours ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(VIDEO - PROTESTERS CHANTING - SEOUL, SOUTH KOREA)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Thousands of people gathered to protest his decision to try to seize control. He was accusing his political opponents of blocking his agenda and sympathizing with North Korea in the process.

In Yoon's decree, which was overturned by lawmakers within hours, I should note, it would have put a ban on all political activities, and also have allowed arrests without warrants.

[21:35:00]

Tonight, there are questions about what happens next here, and also how the next American president is going to handle it.

My source tonight is Ambassador Wendy Sherman, who is the former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State, and the former North Korea Policy Coordinator.

So, it's great to have your expertise, joining us here tonight, Ambassador.

And just given your experience at the State Department, what was your view of what we saw play out, and by the President in South Korea, and also how it backfired.

AMB. WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I think, Kaitlan, the good news out of this instance in South Korea is that the guardrails of democracy held.

President Yoon, who, as you noted, was facing a lot of domestic challenges. Though, he'd been an terrific ally to the United States, working with us on Ukraine, our policy towards China, and nuclear deterrence, and the trilateral work with Japan, really strengthening security in Asia, all of that went well. But domestically, as you noted, he was facing enormous challenges. I think this was a very ill-advised step on his part. He had -- his senior aides have stepped down. As you noted, protesters are calling for him to resign. And the opposition, which controls the National Assembly, their parliament is doing likewise.

But I think the really critical thing, and something for us, as U.S. citizens, as we are facing a change in our government, is the guardrails of democracy held. Indeed, the parliament overturned the martial law. President Yoon immediately, actually, quite, much more quickly than I think some expected, agreed. And now, things will proceed.

It is likely that his tenure is limited, even though he's not up for election for a couple more years yet. So, there will be a 60-day pause, if he steps down. Otherwise, I'm sure he will face impeachment.

COLLINS: Well, and obviously, as you know, South Korea has been one of the most important U.S. allies in Asia. President Biden has certainly put an emphasis on it. I traveled with him, when he was in South Korea.

And I just wonder. We haven't heard a ton from the administration on this. And how you would advise the President tonight, given the emphasis he's placed on democracy abroad, how you'd like to see him handle this?

SHERMAN: Well, I think he would say that this is an internal decision for the people of South Korea, but emphasize how important that relationship is. And it is indeed very important.

I think, for the incoming President-elect, this is a strong relationship that is necessary to our security in Asia, our approach to the People's Republic of China. So, there's a lot at stake here. And instability in South Korea is not only not good for the people of South Korea, first and foremost. It's not good for the United States either.

COLLINS: Well and it comes as we're in the middle -- I mean, the reason I'm in Florida tonight is because we're covering this huge transition that's about to take place in the U.S.

And I wonder your view of the effort that we're seeing from world leaders to court Donald Trump.

That ranges from Canada's Justin Trudeau, who flew here to have a three-hour dinner with Trump, where I was told Trump badgered him, basically, the entire time, over tariffs on the border. But also, the French president, Emmanuel Macron, has invited him to attend the opening of Notre Dame, this weekend.

And how you're viewing how world leaders are balancing an incoming president with an outgoing one.

SHERMAN: Well, we've seen this story a little bit before, when we saw, in fact, the Japanese Prime Minister going to Trump Tower before the President -- Trump became president. And so, we're seeing a reprise of that.

Macron also did similarly to such an extent that after President Trump was in Paris, and saw the military parade in Paris, he wanted a military parade here, which our military did not want to do, and did not occur for all of the reasons of our democracy and how we function.

So, I'm not surprised that this is taking place. But this is a tough go. Leaders around the world have been thinking about what they would do, how they would deal with a President Trump, who often negotiates by raising the stakes up-front as a negotiating tactic to get what he wants.

He said that that he's going to put 25 percent tariffs on Canada and Mexico. I think that's to put pressure on them, on immigration and fentanyl and other things. But the harm of that is really to the American consumer, on automobiles and energy and agricultural products. So, it's not good news for the American consumer. My guess is this is a negotiating tactic.

Likewise, I think he will love being at the center of attention at the Notre Dame celebration, and he'll be able to see a lot of world leaders there.

[21:40:00]

Sara Netanyahu met with him for dinner in Miami. Her son is there. And the Prime Minister of Israel is about to face testimony in his corruption trial, which begins on December 10th. And I think his wife would prefer to be in Miami than to be in Israel.

So, there's a lot going on. President Biden, nonetheless, is still the President of the United States. He's working hard. Just got the deal with Lebanon on a ceasefire. Still working on a ceasefire in Gaza, though that's a very tough one to get the hostages released.

So the President, as you know, is in Angola today. So he hasn't stopped being president--

COLLINS: Yes.

SHERMAN: --and working for the security of our country.

COLLINS: And of course, we've seen Trump saying that the hostages need to be released, or there will be hell to pay if he take -- when he takes office, if they haven't been. Obviously, a lot to play out.

Ambassador Wendy Sherman, thank you for joining tonight.

Up next. The President-elect is already trying to capitalize on Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter. We'll tell you what they said in a new court filing today, about that pardon today. And we'll get perspective from Watergate -- from John Dean.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: Well, that was fast. Donald Trump's attorneys are already arguing in court that President Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter Biden, means that Trump's conviction in the Manhattan hush money case should be overturned.

Trump's team today argued that President Biden has asserted that his son was 'selectively, and unfairly, prosecuted,' and 'treated differently.' "President Biden argued that 'raw politics has infected this process and it led to a miscarriage of justice.'" "These comments," Trump's lawyers say, "amounted to an extraordinary condemnation of President Biden's own DOJ."

Of course, it was New York State prosecutors, who charged Trump in that case, not the Justice Department in Washington. And it was a jury of his peers that ultimately found him guilty.

But this is just one of the many things that a lot of Democrats, who had been critical of Biden, for pardoning his son, had been bracing for, following that decision.

My source tonight is the former White House counsel to President Richard Nixon, John Dean.

And so, it's great to have you here.

I just wonder, what are your thoughts on--

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Thank you.

COLLINS: --on the Trump team citing Hunter Biden's pardon, as an effort to get this conviction overturned.

DEAN: It's an argument, not for the judge. For the public, instead, Kaitlan. It's not going to have any relevance whatsoever.

As you stated, this is a state case, not a federal case. It's not the Department of Justice. It's the New York D.A. So, it's not going to have any impact at all. In fact, the entire 70-plus page brief is a rehash, and it's not going to dismiss the case.

COLLINS: Yes, it was quite a long brief.

But just on the pardon itself, you made this argument that I thought was interesting. That you were saying, essentially, Biden should go, even further than just pardoning his son. Who else do you think that he should use it to benefit?

DEAN: I did. I posted on Bluesky that I thought the President ought to keep going and do more pardons.

In my list, I had Trump himself. I put down Jack Smith and Company. I put down Mueller and Company. I put down people who had spoken out politically. This would create a safe harbor for them. Indeed, it would take out the retribution and revenge element of the campaign, which I think we ought to get through and settle quickly, and a pardon like this could indeed help.

Biden wouldn't be the first President to issue a blanket pardon. They go all the way back to George Washington.

COLLINS: Yes.

DEAN: That's what I was mulling the Presidents who had issued blanket pardons. And Washington did it for the Whiskey Rebellion. Lincoln and Andrew Johnson did it for the Civil War. Jimmy Carter did it for Vietnam. Trying to eliminate the division issues. And I think that could be done here, to help to heal the country right now, which is very divided.

COLLINS: I was smiling, because I was looking at your post, and you wrote Merry Christmas, and then typed out a smiley face, on your suggestion for who he should pardon.

DEAN: I did indeed. I thought that, up until, at least all statements, up until through Christmas. Because you can't prospectively pardon somebody. It's got to be a cut-off date. And I really wasn't trying to draft a pardon. But it just occurred to me, if it fell on the 25th, it would be a nice Christmas gift, for all those who might be very anxious about this presidency, and what they're -- what's in store for them.

COLLINS: Yes, I'm not sure that's normally what people are hoping to find under the tree.

But on this issue overall. I mean, this is something that Biden has faced a lot of heat for. And one of the issues that I heard from some of his allies, was just that it was this blanket pardon, that it was, for crimes that Hunter Biden was not even charged for. And it obviously reminded -- reminded everyone of Gerald Ford's blanket pardon of Richard Nixon.

And you were the White House counsel to Nixon then. And you testified to Congress about the Watergate scandal. At the time, you had been against that pardon. But you had later changed your view, and you said it was the right decision.

What changed your mind on how you saw that?

[21:50:00]

DEAN: I've been back and forth on that pardon, as I watched its impact play out over now 50-some years. And initially, I was opposed to it. I thought a lot of people have gone through a lot of hell to have this, and they did it for Richard Nixon, that it ought to be a wider pardon.

After that, I thought, well, it's -- I understood later, why Ford did issue the pardon. And he did it really to get the issue of Watergate out of his White House, so he wouldn't have to decide which tapes should be released, what documents should be released, and what have you. And he wanted to get, what was for him a nightmare, as well as had been for the country, disposed of, which it did. But as time has played out, the pardon has really affected a lot of presidential power. It's given the president, in fact, more powers. We now have a president, who is totally immune thinking he might self- pardon. They've eliminated that need largely, the Supreme Court, when they decided Trump versus U.S.

So I, you know, it's a -- it depends upon the issue, I'm thinking about, that I've been on both sides of the pardon, as good and bad.

COLLINS: Yes.

John Dean, as always, thank you.

Up next here tonight. The state of play on confirmation battles for some of Trump's most contentious nominees. Our in-house transition tracker, Harry Enten, is here. You'll want to see his numbers.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Welcome back to THE SOURCE. We are coming at you, live tonight, from the center of the political universe, here in West Palm Beach, Florida, this evening.

We reported earlier on how the fate of Trump's Defense secretary could potentially be in peril, over past allegations of serious misconduct, whether he can ultimately get confirmed.

Hegseth -- Pete Hegseth has been working to address that directly from the halls of Congress, today. You saw him there, not answering questions from reporters, but meeting privately behind closed doors with the Republican senators.

We've just learned those efforts will continue tomorrow, when House Republicans are going to be with him, in a closed-door meeting. Now, House members don't have a say on Cabinet picks. So, it remains to be seen what the strategy behind that is.

But this all comes as I'm also hearing that Hegseth, who is a veteran and former Fox News host, is going to return to his former job, tomorrow, most likely for a sit-down interview that's expected to air. His mother is also expected to appear on Fox, tomorrow, as well.

Several Republican senators have said that they do believe he's facing a tough road to confirmation.

So, here to help us track down the numbers for all of the confirmations, CNN's Senior Political Data Reporter, Harry Enten, is here at the Magic Wall for us.

Harry, can you just tell us and walk us through? Because obviously, Hegseth is walking a very fine line, in terms of how many Republican votes he can lose at this point.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL DATA REPORTER: Yes, I think the world -- word, imperiled, describes Hegseth's nomination at this particular point.

Look, the bottom line is, the key number here is three. Three senators. That's how many he can lose, Hegseth can lose, to be confirmed as Defense secretary, if all the Democrats vote against him.

And the bottom line is, at this hour, if you listen to GOP senators, there's a lot of skepticism out there, a lot of skepticism.

Senator Joni Ernst says she's going to have "really frank and thorough" discussions with Hegseth. Senator Lindsey Graham, who of course, is a Trump ally, says that the confirmation is "going to be difficult."

So, the bottom line is, at this point, Hegseth's nomination is very much in danger, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Well, and obviously there are a few other picks that there have been questions of what their path is going to look like. They're probably relieved that most of the focus this evening is on Pete Hegseth.

Kash Patel has been picked to run the FBI, by Donald Trump, if he's confirmed. What do his nomination odds look like, this evening?

ENTEN: Significantly higher than Pete Hegseth's to be Defense secretary. I mean, here's a key nugget. You know you -- I mentioned those three senators, right? You could afford to lose three GOP votes. At this particular point, for Patel to be the FBI head, the key here -- number here, zero. That's how many GOP senators have come out against him.

So, at this particular hour, if Hegseth's nomination is in trouble. Kash Patel to lead the FBI seems to be climbing ever higher, Kaitlan Collins.

COLLINS: Well, and when we take a look back at this, Trump's picks to fill out his administration. We've seen patterns, Harry, that start to come into focus. What have you picked up on, when you're looking at, at the entire Cabinet picture, overall?

ENTEN: Yes, there are a lot of fun numbers when it comes to this. How about billionaires, all right? How many Trump administration picks are billionaires? At least five. At least five are billionaires. I wish I was a billionaire.

Here it is in photo form. You can see it on your screen. You know, you get folks like Elon Musk, well-known. Vivek Ramaswamy, well-known. Steven Witkoff, who I actually know, well-known in New York circles for his real estate dealings.

How about those on Fox News? It's not just Pete Hegseth, right? How about this? At least a 11. At least a 11 Fox News hosts or contributors. Again, you just see, it's just so many names on here. My goodness gracious. Got a 11 on here.

And finally, how about Mar-a-Lago? Trump administration picks who hosted or co-hosted events at Mar-a-Lago. Look at this number. It is 12. 12, including those who co-hosted events at Mar-a-Lago. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, and 12 with Lee Zeldin.

The bottom line is this, is that Trump is someone, who feeds on people being loyal to him. And there's no greater sign of loyalty than hosting or co-hosting event at Mar-a-Lago.

COLLINS: Harry?

[22:00:00]

ENTEN: And so that's what we got.

COLLINS: How do you know Steve Witkoff?

ENTEN: His son, Andrew Witkoff, and I, actually went to school together. He was a very, very good guy, who unfortunately departed us far too soon.

COLLINS: Yes. Well, of course, and we had him on our show, as well.

Harry Enten, thank you so much for that, and laying that all out.

ENTEN: Thank you.

COLLINS: Thank you all so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.