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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Suspected CEO Killer Has Outburst Heading Into Court; Speaker Johnson: Meeting With Trump Saturday To Talk 2025 Agenda; Sen. Ernst Faces Primary Threats Over Hegseth Confirmation Fight. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 10, 2024 - 21:00 ET
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: You can interact with other listeners as well. The Tyler video is also available on the CNN channel, on YouTube, right now. I hope it all makes you feel a little less lonely in your grief.
That's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Inside the defense of the CEO's murder suspect. Luigi Mangione's attorney is here, as the suspect himself explodes before walking into court.
Also, President-elect Donald Trump is set to huddle with top Republicans about his agenda, as Democrats are plotting how to fight it. House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, is my source tonight.
And is the tide starting to turn here, on Capitol Hill, for Trump's Pentagon choice, Pete Hegseth? Senator Ted Cruz will join me on that, and much more.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
In just moments, the new attorney for Luigi Mangione is going to join me live, here on THE SOURCE.
His client has now officially been charged with murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson. And that attorney already has his hands full with Mangione fighting extradition from Pennsylvania, where he was arrested, to New York, where this charge has been issued.
And also fighting mad, including this outburst on his way into court earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIGI MANGIONE, SUSPECTED CEO KILLER: It's completely out of touch and an insult to the intelligence of the American people. It's lived experience.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Once he was hustled inside that court, the 26-year-old Ivy Leaguer was then denied bail, after prosecutors convinced the judge that he was too dangerous to be released.
Tonight, a law enforcement official who was briefed on the matter, is telling us, here at CNN, that along with that three-page handwritten claim of responsibility, as the authorities are referring to it, some might refer to it as a manifesto, investigators are also looking at a spiral notebook of Mangione's that included to-do list of tasks, in order to facilitate a killing, as well as notes justifying those plans.
In one passage about the Unabomber, Mangione concludes that using a bomb against his intended victim could, quote, Kill innocents, but shooting would be more targeted, musing, what could be better, and I'm quoting now, than "To kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference."
This is coming as we are learning more about the suspect's life beforehand, including a report from The New York Times, that Mangione's mother, filed a missing persons report about him, in San Francisco, on November 18th, and also that he stopped communicating with his family and his friends about six months ago.
Yet apparently, no one who knew him and knew that he was missing recognized him in those surveillance photos that have been plastered everywhere for the last several days.
Tonight, that's prompting a whole new set of questions about what was happening in Mangione's life, behind those smiling photos that we've now seen on social media, and also questions about an injury that he suffered in 2023, and what happened to him ever since.
My lead source tonight is the attorney, who is representing Luigi Mangione, Thomas Dickey.
And it's great to have you here, sir. I just want to say thank you. I know this has been moving very quickly. And you said earlier, you were retained today to represent him.
And so, can you just tell us how's your client doing in jail tonight?
THOMAS DICKEY, ATTORNEY FOR CEO SHOOTING SUSPECT LUIGI MANGIONE: Well, Kaitlan, thank you for having me.
As I've been saying all day, if you put yourself -- I tell everybody, use their commonsense. Here we have a young man, who is incarcerated without bail, as you alluded to, and apparently he's going to be charged with murder in the State of New York. So, if you use your commonsense, I'm sure he's -- you know, it's concerning. That's all I can say.
COLLINS: Well, you've been an attorney for decades. What did you make of the way he went into court earlier, that outburst that he had?
DICKEY: I'm still analyzing that. I was actually on the other side of the wall when he came in, so I didn't hear all that statement. I've been busy all day, so I haven't had a chance to analyze that. So, yes, I'm not going to comment on something, unfortunately, until I can have a chance to hear that in detail and break that down.
COLLINS: Well, being on the other side of it, you were inside that courtroom, of course, and we learned about what happened in there. You're fighting extradition for him to New York. Why are you -- why are you fighting that? It seems like it's inevitable that he will be sent to New York.
DICKEY: Well, that may be. But again, the Constitution -- and I know, keep bringing up that word today, unless we forget about that.
[21:05:00]
But the Constitution gives you certain rights, and we need to make informed decision. And the law permits, and the Constitution permits that somebody in Luigi's position has the opportunity to look at evidence, make sure the government follows through a process. And that's what we're doing.
So again, I've been in this case, probably about 12, 14, hours, maybe, whatever, give or take, and I haven't seen a spec of evidence at all.
I argued today, at the extradition hearing, I still haven't received details about the charges that he's facing in New York. I heard your introduction, and looking into that. But so I -- you know, we as lawyers need to make informed decisions, and we need to get our hands and our eyes on some evidence.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, I'm looking at the charges right here. It's murder, a loaded firearm, two counts of that, a forged instrument, and criminal possession of a weapon as well. I mean, those are the charges from New York.
I mean, so you're not -- as you're fighting extradition, you're not actually arguing that the authorities in New York have the wrong guy, are you?
DICKEY: Well, I'd -- haven't seen any evidence that they're having the right guy. I can tell you that much. So, I don't know anything about that. There's identification issues that are present. And so, I don't -- you know, like I said, this is why I need to look at some things, and they need to convince me, you know?
I try to remind people, and it's a shame that we forget about this presumption of innocence that the Constitution gives all Americans. And people don't worry about the Constitution, until they're facing charges or accusations against them. Then trust me, Kaitlan, the--
COLLINS: Yes, well, and--
DICKEY: --the Constitution matters. But--
COLLINS: And of course -- of course it does.
DICKEY: Yes. Go ahead.
COLLINS: And I know you highlighted earlier and emphasized innocent until proven guilty. I understand that.
But I read the criminal -- or I read the police report from when he was arrested. He initially gave them a false name. And then, when they asked to confirm his identity, he said that he shouldn't have lied to them about it. I mean, that would seem to be that they do have the right person.
Given that, he had a gun on him, he had a fake New Jersey ID that he used to check into a hostel, I mean, is none of that enough for you personally to know that they do have the right guy?
DICKEY: Well, first of all, that's a piece of paper. I know you probably can't tell. But I'm five-six. I could write on that I'm six- five, and all this other kind of stuff. So, that's written on paper.
What's nice about the law is, we'll have a hearing. I can cross- examine witnesses and find out -- look at reports, and find out what they have and what they don't have.
So again, that's just written on a criminal complaint. Without getting into the details of that. I don't see any evidence of a forgery. They're going to have to at least prove a prima facie case, which is less than the beyond a reasonable doubt. But I need to see these things. Right now, I have one piece of paper--
COLLINS: Have you--
DICKEY: --and again, so. Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry--
COLLINS: Mr. Dickey, have you -- have you asked to see this?
DICKEY: I have a copy. If that's the Pennsylvania complaint, I have a copy of that. I was handed that today near the end--
COLLINS: But have you asked to see the evidence?
DICKEY: Well, that's what we're going -- that's -- we have a hearing coming up on, I believe the 23rd. I apologize, hearing (ph) about that, because there's a bunch of dates has been flying around today. But yes, and like I said, tomorrow, I'm going to reach out to the District Attorney, that's my intention, to see probably how much we can see this stuff.
COLLINS: You--
DICKEY: So today was not about that. Yes, so--
COLLINS: Sure.
DICKEY: So we have not had the opportunity to do that today.
COLLINS: And I know you were also unhappy that he was denied bail. Of course, prosecutors are arguing that he is a risk. They either have to talk about, being a flight risk or a risk to the community. Obviously, he was -- he was captured about 250 miles from Manhattan.
But you said you were retained today. One big question that everyone has is, are you being paid by his family to represent him?
DICKEY: Yes, I'm not going to comment on that.
COLLINS: Well, can you say that it's not his family who is -- who is asking you to retain him, or to -- retaining you to represent him?
DICKEY: Yes, I'm not going to comment on -- I'm not going to comment on that. That's -- I've been retained. I'm not court-appointed. I've been retained. And that's all I can tell you.
COLLINS: We had seen reports earlier that--
DICKEY: That's all I would tell you.
COLLINS: --that there was, you know, people were inundating you with offers to help pay for his legal bills. Is that accurate?
DICKEY: I have received some emails. I have not seen them personally. But my understanding from my staff is people are doing that.
COLLINS: That people are reaching out to you and offering to help pay for his legal bills?
DICKEY: That's correct.
COLLINS: Do you -- would you accept those offers? I mean, I imagine you maybe have--
DICKEY: Nah.
COLLINS: --I don't know. Have you ever gotten that before?
DICKEY: Nah. Nah. To be honest with you, I probably wouldn't.
COLLINS: Why do you think you would not accept that?
[21:10:00]
DICKEY: I don't know. I just don't -- I don't know. I just don't feel comfortable about that. So, I don't know. I haven't given that much thought. But I'm not -- look, you know, I'm not -- you know, obviously my client appreciates the support that he has. But I don't know, I just did -- it -- I'd have to look in. But it just doesn't sit right with me, really.
COLLINS: Why do you think they're offering?
DICKEY: I would -- I don't know. People -- you know, you're talking about -- you know, the Supreme Court says, all these rich billionaires can give all kind of money to candidates, and that's free speech. So, maybe these people were exercising their right to free speech, and saying, that's the way they're supporting my client. COLLINS: You noted there that you said he supports the -- or he appreciates the support that he's getting. Did he acknowledge that when you -- when you had a conversation with him earlier, about how we have seen this intense public interest in him, himself?
DICKEY: Yes, unfortunately, Kaitlan, I can't get into anything that my client and I talk about. So by law, I'm not permitted to reveal anything. That's attorney-client privilege. And any conversation that occurs between he and I, is simply that.
COLLINS: I understand that. But could you describe just what his demeanor is? You're talking about putting yourself in his shoes. But did he seem nervous? Did he seem calm? Or, how did he come off to you when you met him?
DICKEY: Well, yes -- and if we have a minute, I do want to go back to that bail situation if we have a quick second.
But anyway, I've been telling people all day to use their commonsense. Here's a young man, who's apparently, going to be or has been charged with a very serious and one of the most serious offenses a person could be charged with. He's imprisoned without bail, as you previously mentioned. And so, I think commonsense would say, he's concerned.
COLLINS: Do you plan on representing him only in Pennsylvania, or also in New York?
DICKEY: Well, that's -- that will depend. I got to see how this process pans out. And if, in fact, I were asked to do that, I certainly would consider that and probably do that.
COLLINS: Thomas Dickey, I know you've had a very busy day. Thank you for your time tonight and for joining us. And I hope you'll come back and join us in the future.
DICKEY: I will, Kaitlan. Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me. Thank you.
COLLINS: And I want to bring in my next legal source tonight. Former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams, is here.
Elliot, what did you make of what we heard from him?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: He's a defense attorney. And a lot of things that might seem like commonsense to you or me or anybody else watching, who's seen this evidence play out on television. The defense attorney's obligation is not to, in effect, roll over and accept allegations from prosecutors or police, and hold prosecutors to their burden of proving the evidence.
A good way to think about it, Kaitlan, is that the only fact that is undisputed, right now, about the case, is that a man was killed on a New York City street with a firearm. It's up to prosecutors and police to establish, number one, who the defendant is, and that he's the same person that was apprehended in Pennsylvania. And that's really what defense attorneys do. COLLINS: But is it just a delay tactic, essentially?
WILLIAMS: I don't think so. He really does have a right to do these things.
And more importantly, from the perspective of a defense attorney, if he's not taking some of these steps now, what he does not want to produce is an ineffective assistance of counsel claim later on, that he was not serving his client well. So, he needs to put some of these things on the record, and make prosecutors take those kinds of steps.
COLLINS: What did you make of the news that he made there, saying that his office has gotten calls, offering to pay for Luigi Mangione's legal bills?
WILLIAMS: Look, it's a sense of beyond the legal question, the sort of maelstrom of public outcry around the case, that there were many people who were sort of supportive of the action.
Now, look, in many respects, yes, he's right. It's people's First Amendment right. But it is kind of sickening, given the nature of the crime and sort of and of the--
COLLINS: That do people--
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: --alleged crime.
COLLINS: Do people normally reach out and offer to pay for other people's legal fees?
WILLIAMS: They often do in very high-profile cases. The book I'm writing right now on the Bernhard Goetz case in 1984, lots of people from around the country sent in money. It happens all the time.
Daniel Penny, that was just prosecuted -- or acquitted in New York, got a lot of offers from around the country to pay for his legal bills as well.
COLLINS: Yes. Elliot Williams, thanks for joining us tonight to break that down.
WILLIAMS: Sure.
COLLINS: Up next here, on THE SOURCE. We still have two big guests, who are going to sit down live with me here. That includes the top Democrat in the House, Hakeem Jeffries. And later tonight, Senator Ted Cruz will join us.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: With 41 days to go until the beginning of Donald Trump's second term, Republicans on Capitol Hill have very different ideas about which agenda items they should be focused on -- focused on first. As some of them are still haunted by failures, the last time there was a Republican trifecta here in Washington.
Today, we heard from the House Speaker, Mike Johnson, who confirmed he plans to sit down with the President-elect on that very issue in the coming days.
[21:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We have a menu of options. What we're deciding right now is the sequence of how we run those plays. And it's really important. The House and the Senate have different calculations on how that's done. But we all have exactly the same priorities.
President-elect Trump and I will be talking about this in-depth, this weekend, before the Army-Navy game. So we're going to -- we're going to come up with a play call that we have consensus on and that will work for the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But with a razor-thin majority, of course, Johnson and his Republicans will have to also likely, potentially work with Democrats.
My source tonight is the House Democratic Leader, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York, who is also the Author, I should note, of the new book, "The ABCs of Democracy," which maybe a lot of people should be reading.
It's great to have you here.
You just heard Speaker Johnson there, talking about what this is going to look like. How do Democrats act, going forward, in the minority for the next two years, when it's going to be different this time, because Republicans control everything around you.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, from our perspective, we're going to find bipartisan common ground with the incoming administration, on any issue whenever and wherever possible, particularly as it relates to driving down the high cost of living for everyday Americans, which we must tackle decisively.
But at the same period of time, we're prepared to push back against far-right extremism, whenever necessary, protect Social Security, protect Medicare, protect the Affordable Care Act, protect the progress that we've made on the climate crisis, and certainly protect the woman's freedom to make her own reproductive health care decisions.
COLLINS: But you do feel there could potentially be some areas, where there's bipartisan -- bipartisanship with you and the Trump White House?
JEFFRIES: Well, that's possible, certainly, because that -- to the extent that there is a mandate that comes out of this election, particularly in an evenly divided House of Representatives, where my Republican colleagues will have just a small majority, smallest majority since 1931, in the United States Congress? By necessity, we have to try to find ways to work together, if we truly are going to solve problems for hard-working American taxpayers.
COLLINS: Yes, what went through your head when you were seeing Trump pick House Republicans, because -- to go in his administration, three of them. Because once those numbers are fully done, the majority is going to be 217-215. It's going to be quite small for Mike Johnson.
JEFFRIES: What was going through my head? Three words. Keep it going. I mean, at the end of the day, during the first 100 days of the Trump administration, as you indicated, 217 to 215, meaning, my Republican colleagues can't lose a single vote, in order to get anything done, which is why, by necessity, we should embrace bipartisanship to solve problems for everyday Americans.
Also Kaitlan, it's important to understand. The last time Donald Trump took office, in January of 2017, he had 241 Republicans in the House of Representatives, and only 194 Democrats. So we're in a very different situation, in terms of making progress in a bipartisan way, exercising commonsense to find common ground, but pushing back against Republican extremism whenever necessary.
COLLINS: Yes, and CNN reported, on approaching Trump. Because Trump is approaching Washington so differently, this time. He knows how Washington works much more than he did when he was -- he entered office in 2017.
And we reported that you and your leadership team are talking about how to avoid a repeat of that time, when some felt that Democrats chased Donald Trump every hour, while not delivering their own message. Is that something you're seeking to avoid, this time around?
JEFFRIES: Well, under the leadership of Nancy Pelosi, of course, we were successful in stopping the repeal of the Affordable Care Act in 2017, into 2018, and then taking back control of the United States House of Representatives. We needed to win 24 seats in 2018. That midterm election, we won 40.
And so, there are lessons that we can draw successfully from what took place then, both on the governmental side, to stop bad things from happening, in defense of the American people, and on the non- governmental side.
But of course, we have to address to -- adjust to the moment that we're in, right now. And in my view, everyday Americans are correct, that the cost of living is too high. Grocery prices, too high. Gas prices, too high. Cost of child care, too high. Housing costs, too high.
And as Democrats, we're going to work as hard as we can, to lower costs, and we hope we can find some partners in the incoming administration. COLLINS: Well, and speaking of partnership. I mean, we saw Democrats work with Republicans, in the last Congress, on multiple occasions, whether it was to keep the government funded, to help not avoid defaulting on the debt, to helping Mike Johnson keep his job, at times.
With Donald Trump in the White House, and Republicans in control of the Senate, do you envision extending any more lifelines to Republicans, like that, this time around?
[21:25:00]
JEFFRIES: Well, we're prepared to get things done, to solve problems for hard-working American taxpayers. But that does remain to be seen in terms of the posture that is adopted by my Republican colleagues.
The notion that there is some big, massive, sweeping mandate, for far- right extremism, or for Republicans to jam tax cuts down the throats of the American people that benefit the wealthy, the well-off and the well-connected? That's non-existent. But if they approach the new Congress in that fashion, then there's going to be some governmental challenges, as it relates to how we interact with them.
But, again, if they're prepared to do what is necessary to deliver real results, for working-class Americans, for middle-class Americans, and for everyone who aspires to be part of the middle-class? Then they will find a partner with House Democrats.
COLLINS: But on those Trump tax cuts that are expiring, and that obviously they would like to see renewed. I mean, Trump did pass those, his last time in office. He was voted back into office. So, can you say that the voters didn't want that?
JEFFRIES: Well, the GOP tax scam, from 2017, proved to be one of the most unpopular, so-called tax cut legislative efforts in modern American history, and was one of the reasons why Republicans in the House lost control of the majority in 2018, and then Donald Trump was unsuccessful in winning reelection.
We are prepared to relitigate that issue, if Republicans decide to go down the route of the GOP Tax Scam, Volume Two.
COLLINS: Democratic Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, look forward to seeing what that looks like, starting in January. Thank you for your time tonight, for joining us here on set.
JEFFRIES: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to speak to a Republican in the other house. Senator Ted Cruz is going to be here to join us, as we're seeing all of these Cabinet nominees come out on Capitol Hill, some pressure ramping up against Republicans who have not yet supported them.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Here in Washington, President-elect Trump's pick to be the Secretary of Defense is facing three key tests tomorrow. That's because Pete Hegseth is going to be making courtesy calls to Senators Collins, Cassidy and Young. All three Republicans who have, in certain moments, pushed back on the President-elect, when they felt it was warranted.
Hegseth, of course, can only lose three Republican votes, to still get confirmed to his post. That's why Senator Joni Ernst, a key player here, has been the subject of a pretty intense pressure campaign that we've seen building up in recent days.
Hegseth is hoping to get more of a commitment from her than he got from Senator Lisa Murkowski, after their meeting today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): I had a good exchange, and we'll see what the process bears.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is a Republican senator, who will also vote on these nominees. The recently reelected Republican senator from Texas, Senator Ted Cruz.
It's great to have you back here on THE SOURCE.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Great to be back.
COLLINS: What do you make of the pressure campaign we've seen on Senator Joni Ernst? Because I know you take this process seriously of the nominees. But do you think it's fair that someone should be threatened with a primary just because they're not totally committed to a nominee yet?
CRUZ: Look, I think the voters are going to express their views. That's politics. And I believe the people have a right to say that.
I also believe in the Senate confirmation process. So every one of the nominees -- I think all of Trump's nominees, for the Cabinet at least, are going to be confirmed.
COLLINS: Every single one?
CRUZ: I do.
But now, look, you've got 53 Republicans in the Senate. And I think most Republican senators begin from a proposition that the President is entitled to choose his Cabinet nominees. Now, there is a back and forth on it. I mean, Trump did withdraw Matt Gaetz, and that was after a number of senators pressed back. And so, the advice and consent is part of the Constitution. It's an important role.
But at the end of the day -- and by the way, when Joe Biden was President, that's the same way Democrats approached it, which is they voted to confirm whoever he put up.
COLLINS: Yes, well, and I know, with that, when we hear some Republicans saying, The President's entitled to his nominees, I've heard some people push back and say, Well, we've seen Republicans vote against all of Biden's picks.
You voted for -- against everyone, except Lloyd Austin.
CRUZ: Yes. But look, I mean, a lot of Biden's picks, I think, were extreme. You look at someone like Merrick Garland. I think Merrick Garland has been the most partisan and political Attorney General the country has ever seen.
You look at someone like Alejandro Mayorkas, who opened up the border and caused an invasion at our southern border.
It actually -- I was surprised Biden did not nominate more moderate candidates. You look at Trump. Trump has nominated several people, who were Democrats until, like, 12 minutes ago.
COLLINS: Tulsi Gabbard and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
CRUZ: Tulsi Gabbard, RFK.
COLLINS: But on the advice and consent process, because that has been such an intense focus of vetting these nominees and talking to them.
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: And I've heard you talk so much about that process, and how it's, you know, you say you have to have a backbone when it--
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: --when it comes to carrying it out.
What did you make of your colleague's comments, Senator Tommy Tuberville, that it's the Democrats' job, that it's more of Democrats' job to do advice and consent?
CRUZ: Oh, look, I think every committee we're going to have -- I'm going to be the incoming Chairman of the Commerce Committee. And we will have hearings on our nominees. We'll have hearings promptly.
I'm talking with the Trump team, often. Some of the Trump team are frustrated, and they want everyone confirmed immediately. I'm like, Look, it will move expeditiously, but you got a challenge that Chuck Schumer, and the Democrats are going to try to delay. They're going to engage in obstruction.
One of the things John Thune announced is, we're going to be working, we're going to be in here, and moving fast. I think you'll see some of the top national security Cabinet nominees confirmed very early, maybe as early as January 20th.
COLLINS: Yes, there's very little recess. But on actually doing the vetting, do you disagree with Tuberville saying, you know--
CRUZ: No, I think it's--
COLLINS: --Trump has done all the vetting?
CRUZ: No, no, no, no, it's the--
COLLINS: That we shouldn't be doing that?
CRUZ: The Constitution, for good reason, gives the Senate, the authority and the responsibility to advice and consent.
[21:35:00]
And I will say, when Trump was president, last time, let's take judges. I think one of the great legacies of the Trump presidency's, he put some fantastic judges on the bench. But you know what? There were a couple of his nominees that were not good choices. And Republicans, we pressed back, and they withdrew those nominees.
Now, it's not unusual that in those circumstances, you press back in private. So what I would do, in those circumstances, I call over to the White House, and I'd say, Look, this guy is a problem, and you need to withdraw him.
One of my frustrations, the last four years, on the Senate Judiciary Committee, I pleaded with my Democrat colleagues, Biden nominated some really radical judges. And I was like, Look, guys, you are allowed to press back. We did that to Trump. You can actually advice and consent. The degree to which the Democrats rubber-stamped, I think, some egregiously extreme nominees.
COLLINS: That's an interesting point. Because I think some people look at this and saying, Well, all of these -- if you're saying, all of these people are going to get confirmed. And we have seen the pressure campaign on Joni Ernst, for expressing some hesitation about Pete Hegseth. I mean, she may not feel like she can do this without getting a lot of pushback.
CRUZ: Well, as I said, I didn't see any Democrats standing up to Joe Biden, on his open borders. Just today--
COLLINS: But on the nominees themselves, of course. I'm curious, your view, because you're saying Democrats didn't stand up to a Democratic president.
CRUZ: Right.
COLLINS: Some people might say, Well, we're looking at Republicans, and we don't feel like they are standing up against some people--
CRUZ: I'm willing to bet, there will be more Republican votes against Trump nominees, than there were Democrat votes against Biden nominees. You just put Lisa Murkowski. She could easily vote against -- wouldn't surprise me if she cast no-votes against a couple of people. Susan Collins certainly could cast some no-votes against a couple of people.
And one of the differences in the Republican Party. The Democrat Party has amazing message discipline. They vote together on everything, over and over and over again.
COLLINS: I think Ron Klain would like to talk to Joe Manchin about that. Would say he disagrees.
But can I ask you about Pete Hegseth?
CRUZ: Sure.
COLLINS: Because he has been the attention -- center of attention on Capitol Hill.
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: He's been pushing back, saying, one part of this was his comments about women serving in combat. He said, last night, that his comments were misconstrued.
So, I want to be fair to him, and play his actual comments of what he said about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY: I'm straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn't made us more effective, hasn't made us more lethal, has made fighting more complicated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, that was him, on November 23rd. I mean, he's explicitly saying that he doesn't think that it -- that he says it makes fighting more complicated. Would you agree with those comments?
CRUZ: Well, listen, what I would agree with is the proposition that women shouldn't be subject to the draft, and I've been very vocal--
COLLINS: Yes, you've said that.
CRUZ: --fighting against putting women involuntarily into the military if they don't wish to serve. And that's been a live debate on Capitol Hill for a long time.
What I'll say on a view like that? I fully expect the Senate Armed Services Committee, they're going to have a vigorous hearing.
And the one thing we know, look, the Hegseth confirmation hearing is going to be a circus. The Democrats are ginned up. They're ready to go for a battle. And you'll have that view, and you'll have everything about Pete Hegseth's background fleshed out.
I will say this. So, I've met -- I met with Pete twice. And I know Pete. I like Pete. If you look at his background, he's a decorated combat veteran. He has spent virtually his entire adult life as a champion and advocate for the military, for active-duty military, for veterans.
And I think he has a very clear-eyed focus on moving the Department of Defense, back to its core mission of, number one, supporting the war fighter, and number two, being prepared and ready to defeat our enemies if necessary. And I think -- that is a mission I strongly support. I think that's--
COLLINS: But he's going to be, if confirmed, in charge of a lot of women who signed up to serve in combat. Joni Ernst, obviously, is one of those people. So I mean, on that view and of itself, do you agree or disagree with him?
CRUZ: Well, listen, I think at the end of the day, that decision will be made not by the Defense secretary, but made by the President. And--
COLLINS: Yes, but you personally, given your emphasis on advice and consent, do you share that view that the potential former Defense secretary has?
CRUZ: That is not a view I have articulated. What I have articulated is that you shouldn't force women to serve in the military against their wishes.
COLLINS: Yes. Which are two very different arguments.
CRUZ: They are--
COLLINS: And so.
CRUZ: They are very different propositions.
COLLINS: OK, so you don't share his view on that.
The other part of this, obviously, he's faced a sexual assault allegation, which he's denied.
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: We just had Pete Hegseth's attorney on to talk about that.
He's also faced allegations of mismanagement, running former veterans organizations. I've also seen people who worked with him defend him in that situation.
He's undergoing an FBI background check, right now.
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: Will you personally review that FBI background check before you vote yes?
CRUZ: I'm confident that I will. And look, I think the FBI background checks are important. I think they're a process. I have reviewed hundreds of FBI background checks in my time in the Senate. It's an important process.
COLLINS: You think everyone should get one?
CRUZ: And I think, given the allegations directed against Pete Hegseth, his FBI background check is naturally going to be more important. People are going to look at it and say, All right, they're allegations. Allegations don't mean guilt. So how credible are the allegation? What's the evidence?
[21:40:00]
And I think -- I think the background check -- and Pete, what he's said to me is he's eager to have that process go forward, and--
COLLINS: Do you think there's -- given your view of so many (ph), do you think there's anything in it that could change your view of how you're going to vote on him?
CRUZ: Well, sure, I mean, you know, I mean -- a question like that, yes, if he killed someone and dragged their body into the woods, I'd vote no. I don't believe that's going to be the answer.
COLLINS: Right. But that's not your standard for confirming a Defense secretary surely.
CRUZ: Of course not. I picked -- I picked an absurd example. But yes, of course, with any nominee, if something comes out about them that nobody knows, that is deeply concerning, everyone will -- that's why you have advice and consent. Because you discover -- you discover things about people's backgrounds.
COLLINS: Senator Ted Cruz, stick around.
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: Because there's an issue that you care a lot about, that we're going to talk about, coming up next.
You're also going to see a guest that you've seen here before. We're going to talk about a bipartisan effort to pass a bill that would protect victims of A.I. revenge porn. A brave young woman, who has personally been through this will also join us here at the table.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: Artificial intelligence has the power to change the world, as we know and live in it. And of course, some argue, it can be a force for good.
But as too many teenage girls are already learning, A.I. and deepfake technology can also be used for emotional torture, in the form of fake sexually explicit images. In 2019, researchers found that 96 percent of all deepfake videos were non-consensual pornography. 96 percent. Over a dozen states have since rushed to pass laws, dealing with deepfakes. And here, in Washington, the Senate just passed a bipartisan bill, unanimously, that would force social media companies to remove the content, within 48 hours of a victim reporting them.
My source on this tonight is a brave young woman that we first met here in June, Elliston Berry, who shared the painful reality of how hard it was to get the fake images of her taken down.
And also, the Republican co-sponsor of this bill, Senator Ted Cruz, is back with us.
Great to have you both here.
Elliston, especially great to just have you joining us again. Because when we talked, you talked about how hard it was to get these images taken down. And I just wonder, when you think of the personal story you've shared, how it feels to see how long it's taken Congress to address this.
ELLISTON BERRY, TEEN VICTIM OF A.I. DEEPFAKE NUDE: I mean, yes, I mean, it's such a privilege to have my voice be heard, and to work with Senator Ted Cruz and Senator Amy Klobuchar to get something like this implemented. And it truly -- I'm glad it's happening, although I am a little upset about how long it's taken to have these sort of laws implemented. But it's truly just movement and awareness, and that's just what I'm glad about.
COLLINS: Why do you think it's hard to get people's attention on this. Is it because lawmakers feel like they don't go through this, they're not worried about this? What has your experience been with that?
BERRY: I feel like when cases are being brought up, people invalidate their feelings, and they make their case sort of irrelevant. But at the end of the day, this is a serious matter. And all A.I. is considered child pornography regardless. And we're just calling on the House to pass this bill, as soon as possible, to protect the future generations and the victims from being victims.
COLLINS: Yes.
And obviously, Senator Cruz, you've been working very closely on this. We've talked about this before. It unanimously passed the Senate--
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: --which almost never happens.
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: As you are deeply familiar with these days.
Given that, have you gotten any commitments from Speaker Johnson that the House will take this bill up?
CRUZ: So I'm hopeful. I've spoken with the Speaker several times about it. He and I are good friends. I hope they will take it up. I hope they'll take it up in the next two weeks.
I will say, one of the real keys to this getting passed has been Elliston's incredible, just telling her story. And actually, what happened to Elliston, there's another -- another teenage girl, Francesca Mani in New Jersey, who had almost the identical thing happen to her at almost the exact same time.
Both of them were freshmen in high school. Both of them, a boy in their class took innocent pictures from social media, went and used an app, used A.I. to create fake naked pictures of them. And in Elliston's case, sent it to every one of her classmates.
I mean, it -- look, it is hard to be a teenager, period, today.
COLLINS: Yes.
CRUZ: But the nightmare of going through that, it's fundamentally wrong.
And I'll tell you the way this issue initially came to me. I mean, Elliston's a constituent. She's a Texan. And she and her mom complained to my office, and said, Hey, can you help me? And my team brought it to my attention. And we said, This is terrible, and we said, Let's draft this bill. Let's draft this bill, number one, to make it a crime, but number two, to require a media platform to take down -- take down the pictures.
And so, Elliston and her mom came and met with me, several months ago, in my office, and we were talking, and I asked, I said, Well, what's happened with the pictures now? And they said, They're still up. It's been nine months.
Elliston's mom said she had called Snapchat, she'd emailed them, and she just got stifled.
COLLINS: Yes.
CRUZ: They just wouldn't do anything.
I turned to my team, and I said, I want you to get the CEO of Snapchat on the phone today, I want those photographs down today.
Within an hour, they pulled them down.
COLLINS: And obviously, but getting in touch with your office, I mean, you and your mother have put so much work into bringing this to attention, reaching out to the Senator's office, and doing that.
When you've had these conversations to try to make it where people don't have to go through that, has Speaker Johnson said, Yes, I'll bring this to the floor.
CRUZ: He hasn't committed, but I'm hopeful that he will. And I think it will pass overwhelmingly. If it comes up for a vote, it will get a big bipartisan vote. And listen, it shouldn't take a sitting senator making a phone call. Elliston should have the right to say, This is garbage. This is me. I didn't consent. Take it down.
And what the bill does, we actually borrowed from existing law, which is the Millennium Copyright, The Digital Act, which right now, if you tweet out a song from "The Lion King," they'll pull it down within hours. And every tech platform has an office that deals with those requests, because you can't put out copyrighted material. So we treat it the exact same thing--
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:50:00]
CRUZ: --if a victim, either of a deepfake or a real picture. Sometimes, you have a boyfriend and girlfriend, and they have pictures or videos of each other, they get mad at each other and release it to the world. And that's a gross violation of privacy.
COLLINS: Elon Musk is so close in Trump's circle and with Republicans. Have you had any conversations with him about this?
CRUZ: Haven't talked with Elon about this, no. I've talked with him about A.I., generally. But not about this manifestation of it.
COLLINS: Yes. And obviously, I know how important it is to both of you.
Elliston, it's so great to have you. Thank you for coming and joining us on set.
BERRY: Thank you so much for having me.
COLLINS: Senator, thank you as well.
We'll obviously continue to follow this closely.
CRUZ: Kaitlan, I'm warning you, she may be coming for your job. She's really good at this.
COLLINS: We'll take you. We'll take you. You can come hang out, intern here at THE SOURCE.
Up next. Back to our big story tonight, the CEO shooting suspect, sharing a picture of his spinal X ray online, posting about chronic pain. We'll dig into those details ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, the NYPD is investigating whether a back injury suffered by Luigi Mangione, in 2023, could be related to the murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH KENNY, NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: Some of the writings that he had, he was discussing the difficulty of sustaining that injury. So we're looking into whether or not the insurance industry either denied a claim from him or didn't help him out to the fullest extent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Posts from a now-deleted Reddit account that closely matches his biographical details, say that a surfing incident aggravated the user's backaches that he had suffered since childhood. They wrote, quote, "My back and hips locked up after the accident." The "Intermittent numbness has become constant." And quote, "I'm terrified of the implications."
Joining me now is Dr. Mark Lerner, a clinical and forensic psychologist on this.
And doctor, it's great to have you here.
Because we look at the suspect's background. And he was valedictorian of his high school. He was Ivy League-educated. A lot of his friends describing him as a normal guy, saying that they're totally shocked at his arrest here.
Is it possible, as you look at this, that something like a back injury that chronic pain could lead to, I don't know, a changed mental state, or what we're seeing, and what he's accused of doing?
DR. MARK LERNER, CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, first, good evening, Kaitlan. Thank you for having me aboard.
Millions of people suffer with chronic back pain and countless other health conditions. But millions of people don't allegedly assassinate the CEO of health care organizations. Certainly, there's other variables and factors that we're going to learn, in time, that contributed to this act.
COLLINS: What are other questions that you would just have, in terms of an analysis perspective from this?
LERNER: Well, what else was going on in Luigi's life? One of the things that we're starting to learn is that Luigi had disappeared. He disappeared from social media, and people were asking questions about him. He disappeared from his own family. His -- I believe it was his mother that filed a missing persons report. What else was going on that could have exacerbated, perhaps some underlying condition?
The other possibility, Kaitlan, is that beyond having a chronic back injury and condition, it's very possible that this was the manifestation of some underlying psychopathology. It's not unusual early adulthood that we see more severe psychopathology rear its head. Paranoia, schizophrenic process, psychotic process, et cetera.
COLLINS: And what would you attribute that to? LERNER: Well, it could be an underlying condition. Certainly, this was a very high-functioning individual, who all reports (ph) that we've heard has done quite well with life up until more recently, in recent months. I'd like to know what other events may have contributed to this agitation or acting-out behavior.
COLLINS: Yes. And his friend told The New York Times that he knew, quote, "That dating and being physically intimate with his back condition" was not possible.
And obviously, I think there was a question of psychologically how that could affect him.
LERNER: And that certainly could have contributed to it. But let's face it, many people have very serious chronic health conditions, but they don't act out in such violent ways.
What we really need to do, Kaitlan, and I believe the answer to this is looking more toward preventing these kinds of violent tragedies.
There's a common denominator among all these tragedies. I call it leakage. Someone knew something before the event happened. And had that been the case here, where somebody came forward and talked about, and I think in time, we're going to hear this, had they come forward and talked about what they knew, we could have potentially averted a tragedy.
COLLINS: Well, I think that's the question about this, this six-month period where he stopped communicating with friends and family. One was reaching out, saying, You RSVP'd yes to my wedding, we haven't heard from you, what's going on. I mean, that seems to be a bit of a black hole, right now, that investigators are looking into, to see what happened in that time period.
LERNER: Exactly. Was there some precipitating event? Was there something that potentially happened with the health insurance industry? These are things that will come to fruition with time.
COLLINS: Yes, obviously, just major questions about so many facets of this.
Dr. Mark Lerner, thank you for joining us to help us break it down tonight.
And I want to thank you all so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" is up next.
[22:00:00]
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST, CNN NEWSNIGHT: Tonight.
Panic at the C-Suite. Backlash at Corporate America runs wild, as corners of the country turn the suspected CEO killer into a folk hero.
Plus, Daniel Penny gives his first interview since his jury acquittal. Conservatives say, he's the real hero, for fighting back against crime.
